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Canada16217 Posts
Making SC2 better is the ultimate goal for any fan, we want the game to be better. If something is broken,it should be fixed, if another game does it better and it is actually applicable to SC2 then implement it.Saying SC2 is shit is wrong because that is not true(no one has done that here), comparing bw to sc2, fine.
On October 31 2013 13:44 Meerel wrote:
well thx for doing the research and putting this video together lalush. always appreciate a fellow *helpsc2nottofadeintooblivion* guy, i guess.
i still look hopeless into the future as long as david kim as anything to say about the balance of this game unfortunatly.
and after reading some comments in this thread it seems like the ''real sc2 fans'' dont really want help anyways, they are too stupid see what is missing or could be achieved through changes like these.
it really hurts me to read those things, after pointing mechanical-, unit- and mapdesign issues out since the first day after release and ''fans'' still dont even want anything that would change it to the better is totally beyond me.
after all if starcraft 2 would not have been called starcraft it would have fade away after a few month because of his weak production value, just like every random C&C game in the last years.
the retirement of so many pros, even going back to playing bw basically the next day shows that quite clearly.
I really just want to not be able to rip my hair out for like a week responding to these types of posts. Instead i'll quote these:
On October 24 2013 19:52 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 19:43 Hermanoid wrote:
Granted that I'm going ahead of the current turn of events with this, but;
Maybe SC2 will carry on in other regions, but it's definately already in the noose in Korea. And with Korea vanishing and becoming a sunken Starcraft-atlantis, none of the other regions are going to feel significant in terms of skill anyway. I already to an extent have this feeling with the Brood War vs. SC2, now it's going to be complete with the greatest portion of the SC2 proscene feeding the worms. Korea is similar to how it's always been except that KeSPA added 200 progamers, who had no say in the matter themselves. For most of them BW, not SC2, was the game of their life. These players that have had such long careers already in the game of their choice, were added to an ecosystem that already had problems supporting the ESF teams. It gets a little tiring to explain it over and over but none of this indicates that the Korean scene is able to support less than before. It always supported ~100 living in pro houses on little to no salary, not ~300 of which many well paid athletes.
On October 24 2013 21:14 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 21:06 Muffloe wrote:On October 24 2013 18:35 coin_au_carre wrote:Ah a very nice news for Broodwar  . Keep the retiring spirit ! So its better to play some bw now and then, but let the whole franchise die? Your comment is idd a Malevolent Creation, ifuknowadamean They're two different sports nothing is about to die. Players who want to play BW certainly don't owe it to you to play SC2. Let people pick the games they want with devotion and passion and SC2 will be a lot better for it.
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On October 31 2013 13:36 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 13:26 Plansix wrote:On October 31 2013 13:23 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 31 2013 13:18 PhoenixLight wrote:On October 31 2013 13:13 Beakyboo wrote:
Really don't want to see this stuff added to SC2. It's out of place, unnecessary, and wouldn't even achieve the effect that you want. I don't even see that these BW mechanics are objectively better in any way either.
Wish we'd stop seeing these topics. We're 3 years into SC2 now and this is the same kinda stuff we were getting in the first couple months. And yet the scene is doing absolutely fine. Move on, please. It's already been said before but people will move on when SC2 stops using the name "starcraft". Sequals are compared with the predecessors, that's just how things work. See posts like yours just add fuel to the fire and are unnecessary. Is it so hard to be reasonable? And to the guy who said he thinks these features wouldnt make sc2 better. Why exactly is more micropotential not desirable? There are few people who would say they want units to be less microable. But we can talk about that within SC2 and what needs to be changed about each unit to make it better to control. This thread doesn't do that. It just points out how great stuff was in BW and how the units could be controlled there. It barely address SC2 at all and is mostly to espouse how great BW air units were. C'mon now. You're just fanboying way too much and being extremely thin-skinned about criticisms of SC2. I watched the video and saw decembercalm's posts. Almost every criticism they had of SC2, they managed to fix or work around using the editor. What else do you need? Did you even watch the video?
I gave it a second look through and must have missed the parts about the tank or been responding to an email. I like the suggestions about the turret and tracking. The air units I am less sold on because turn radius is a big deal in sc2.
You may be right that I am a little thin skinned about sc2, but it isn't wihout cause. It's hard to come and enjoy the game when a large amount of the communty is so focused on how it is "dying" or or how to get rd of deathballs. After 3 year of it, it all starts to look the same.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
thanks, you really imported the necessary attributes of units in bw in great detail for sc2. here's to hoping!
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One of the things that has always made Starcraft enjoyable to watch is the mechanical skill that goes into the micro. No one can argue that in BW there were things like wraith micro that required very high mechanical skill to execute.
Since there are workaround and ways to implement this micro, and add fun new skills to watch in the game, I don't see why it shouldn't be pursued.
Some might argue that such changes could affect the game too drastically. I would say so what? Learning new things is always fun, and the general game wouldn't change that much. Implementation of such micro skills would only serve to increase SC2's competitiveness.
Every person that watches SC2 has felt that "nerd chill" moment of watching a pro do something incredible. Such changes would only server to help make more of these moments and make observing the game more fun for the audience.
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Like XMG held that mini-tournament for the balance test maps, someone should create maps with (only) all of these changes and hold showmatches. It would seem amazingly imbalanced but lots of fun to see what could happen. :D
Seriously, I would not mind contributing to a prize pool to give more motivation.
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Some of this stuff just feels so unnecessary to me. Like do we need terrans to be able to execute perfect banshee micro vs marines with 5 banshees? Probably not. That kind of thing doesn't even make sense in the SC2 meta. Why argue for it? I don't see what we'd gain from making air units fire without delay. They basically did that with phoenixes while removing the clunky commands required to do it, and that's what you get. And that phoenix change, as I recall, seemed to basically be a direct result of Nony writing some massive post about moving shot. They aren't going to implement awkward micro maneuvers like BW has.
And why is oracle bug stuff even in this video? It's a bug. Put in a bug report about it or something. It's a separate issue. Don't use it as fuel for your "make SC2 more like BW" thingy.
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On October 31 2013 13:47 NovemberstOrm wrote:Making SC2 better is the ultimate goal for any fan, we want the game to be better. If something is broken,it should be fixed, if another game does it better and it is actually applicable to SC2 then implement it.Saying SC2 is shit is wrong because that is not true(no one has done that here), comparing bw to sc2, fine. Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 13:44 Meerel wrote:
well thx for doing the research and putting this video together lalush. always appreciate a fellow *helpsc2nottofadeintooblivion* guy, i guess.
i still look hopeless into the future as long as david kim as anything to say about the balance of this game unfortunatly.
and after reading some comments in this thread it seems like the ''real sc2 fans'' dont really want help anyways, they are too stupid see what is missing or could be achieved through changes like these.
it really hurts me to read those things, after pointing mechanical-, unit- and mapdesign issues out since the first day after release and ''fans'' still dont even want anything that would change it to the better is totally beyond me.
after all if starcraft 2 would not have been called starcraft it would have fade away after a few month because of his weak production value, just like every random C&C game in the last years.
the retirement of so many pros, even going back to playing bw basically the next day shows that quite clearly. I really just want to not be able to rip my hair out for like a week responding to these types of posts. Instead i'll quote these: Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 19:52 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On October 24 2013 19:43 Hermanoid wrote:
Granted that I'm going ahead of the current turn of events with this, but;
Maybe SC2 will carry on in other regions, but it's definately already in the noose in Korea. And with Korea vanishing and becoming a sunken Starcraft-atlantis, none of the other regions are going to feel significant in terms of skill anyway. I already to an extent have this feeling with the Brood War vs. SC2, now it's going to be complete with the greatest portion of the SC2 proscene feeding the worms. Korea is similar to how it's always been except that KeSPA added 200 progamers, who had no say in the matter themselves. For most of them BW, not SC2, was the game of their life. These players that have had such long careers already in the game of their choice, were added to an ecosystem that already had problems supporting the ESF teams. It gets a little tiring to explain it over and over but none of this indicates that the Korean scene is able to support less than before. It always supported ~100 living in pro houses on little to no salary, not ~300 of which many well paid athletes. Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 21:14 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On October 24 2013 21:06 Muffloe wrote:On October 24 2013 18:35 coin_au_carre wrote:Ah a very nice news for Broodwar . Keep the retiring spirit ! So its better to play some bw now and then, but let the whole franchise die? Your comment is idd a Malevolent Creation, ifuknowadamean They're two different sports nothing is about to die. Players who want to play BW certainly don't owe it to you to play SC2. Let people pick the games they want with devotion and passion and SC2 will be a lot better for it.
guess what, i totally agree with what nazgul said, but if blizzard had made a REAL successor to broodwar alot more people would have enjoyed it and the FORCED change to switch games in korea would have not felt so compelled how it does at the moment.
i can feel that there is no enthusiasm from those people who are forced to play sc2 now, they play because thats what they did before and dont really know how to continue with theri lifes and so they stay and play sc2 to earn money.
its that simple
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So I think we're all in agreement that this should be looked at and implemented for LOTV. How do we go about making sure this is the case?
Because I'm sure we'll get something along the lines of, "This has been great feedback and we'll take it into account along with many other things that get suggested to the team and we'll discuss it in-house and make our decisions as the time comes."
How do we get, "This has been absolutely amazing feedback and we're going to get x, y, and z taken care of and you'll see an even better expansion with the release of LOTV."
Edited: Also would like for them to look at the mining efficiency/overall economy for LOTV as well but let's focus on one thing at a time shall we? ^^
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Katowice25012 Posts
Really sick video, loved the small collision sized banshees especially.
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I really wonder how much they'd have to redesign units if they were to re-introduce micro-mechanics into StarCraft 2.
Range 9 vikings that fire instantly
Cloaked patrol banshees
Jaedongalisks
Oracles, after they get patched for the nth time to have range 6 or something
Hellions that don't rubberneck themselves to death
Soul Trains with more mobile immortals
All we need now is for Nony to make a thread copying everything you just said, and we will receive madness.
On October 31 2013 14:07 Ero-Sennin wrote:
So I think we're all in agreement that this should be looked at and implemented for LOTV. How do we go about making sure this is the case?
Because I'm sure we'll get something along the lines of, "This has been great feedback and we'll take it into account along with many other things that get suggested to the team and we'll discuss it in-house and make our decisions as the time comes."
How do we get, "This has been absolutely amazing feedback and we're going to get x, y, and z taken care of and you'll see an even better expansion with the release of LOTV."
Edited: Also would like for them to look at the mining efficiency/overall economy for LOTV as well but let's focus on one thing at a time shall we? ^^
Nony + vocal Korean petitioning might do the trick. I'm wondering if they understand what's missing in as much detail as LaLush.
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Just an amazing post! You said everything I felt was wrong about SC2 from the beginning.
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On October 31 2013 10:10 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 10:02 Snusmumriken wrote:
I think they ought to increase the depth of micro but only in ways that are noticable from a viewer standpoint. To make something more difficult without it being clear for a viewer defeats the purpose of e-sports (it would be similar to using a crappy fotball which may make playing more difficult but does nothing for the viewers). This sort of movement micro IS very noticable to viewers. There's a reason it was watched on tv and it wasn't because of buggy AI. Movement micro, such as moving shot, adds no extra information to the screen like a spell. Therefore the micro is generally clutter free. When you combine it with proper unit stacking (for air), there is even less clutter on the screen. Unstacked air combined with a ground battle over top of base is extremely busy and confusing due to overlapping units-even in BW. I took a screen shot in my last BW is for Newbs blog and even I had not a clue what the hell was going on in the picture. Throw in similarily coloured spells (green for Zerg, blue bubbles for Protoss) and you add to the confusion. But with moving shot micro, the screen is clean with only small group tactics. It's easy to see and exciting to see. It is spectator friendly and pro friendly. If we can tinker with the game at the root level like we see in this video, SC2 will bring a LOT to the table as a competitive, spectator sport.
I like this sorta concept. With high level unit control, it looks like a professional dancer, gliding and elegant in every movement. With poor unit control, it looks like the person fumbling over themselves. It would be very easy for the average person to spot the differences, and you'd get a much better viewing experience as the skill cap went up.
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United States7166 Posts
best video 2013
This is the most important change they could do to sc2, I think.
just think of what it would do to the popularity of the game when sick micro plays are possible. the single easiest way to increase viewership and revitalize this game. people go craaaaazy over impressive micro.
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On October 31 2013 14:07 Ero-Sennin wrote:
So I think we're all in agreement that this should be looked at and implemented for LOTV. How do we go about making sure this is the case?
Because I'm sure we'll get something along the lines of, "This has been great feedback and we'll take it into account along with many other things that get suggested to the team and we'll discuss it in-house and make our decisions as the time comes."
How do we get, "This has been absolutely amazing feedback and we're going to get x, y, and z taken care of and you'll see an even better expansion with the release of LOTV."
Edited: Also would like for them to look at the mining efficiency/overall economy for LOTV as well but let's focus on one thing at a time shall we? ^^
Hard to tell. People talk about them pseudo "fixing" Carriers as an example of "they listen to feedback", but when people pointed out unit clumping and pathing changes others had made to make troop movement more interesting and less "deathbally" they poopoo'd it outright.
One option we have is to press on this at Blizzcon Q&A sessions. Come at it from multiple angles, addressing each one of these concerns (and the economy stuff) as separate questions. I'd also press them on what their plans are to make every unit "easy to learn, hard to master", because lets face it, that's all we're really talking about here. We want the skill ceiling to be higher so players can separate themselves more and there is more interesting play.
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Great stuff, although watching this video made me a bit depressed. I honestly don't think Blizzard will implement much, if any, of these improvements.
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On October 31 2013 14:47 Zelniq wrote:
best video 2013
This is the most important change they could do to sc2, I think.
just think of what it would do to the popularity of the game when sick micro plays are possible. the single easiest way to increase viewership and revitalize this game. people go craaaaazy over impressive micro.
Imagine if impressive micro could pull you out of a deficit. It then goes beyond just "fancy play" but into actual game outcomes. And perhaps we'd have a more comebacks than we do now (which is probably my biggest SC2 gripe).
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So Scouts are actually the best units in BW, it's just that no one has reached their full potential yet.
On a serious note, someone who knows Korean should subtitle this and post it on Korean site(s).
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On October 31 2013 14:50 vesicular wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 14:07 Ero-Sennin wrote:
So I think we're all in agreement that this should be looked at and implemented for LOTV. How do we go about making sure this is the case?
Because I'm sure we'll get something along the lines of, "This has been great feedback and we'll take it into account along with many other things that get suggested to the team and we'll discuss it in-house and make our decisions as the time comes."
How do we get, "This has been absolutely amazing feedback and we're going to get x, y, and z taken care of and you'll see an even better expansion with the release of LOTV."
Edited: Also would like for them to look at the mining efficiency/overall economy for LOTV as well but let's focus on one thing at a time shall we? ^^ Hard to tell. People talk about them pseudo "fixing" Carriers as an example of "they listen to feedback", but when people pointed out unit clumping and pathing changes others had made to make troop movement more interesting and less "deathbally" they poopoo'd it outright. One option we have is to press on this at Blizzcon Q&A sessions. Come at it from multiple angles, addressing each one of these concerns (and the economy stuff) as separate questions. I'd also press them on what their plans are to make every unit "easy to learn, hard to master", because lets face it, that's all we're really talking about here. We want the skill ceiling to be higher so players can separate themselves more and there is more interesting play.
This!
Need a co-coordinated effort form the community to get the message across.
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On October 31 2013 13:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 12:54 Plansix wrote:On October 31 2013 12:42 ETisME wrote:
I don't see why this isn't in blogs or even BW thread...even if it is well written I agree, I don't know why its in SC2, except that people love to point out how much "better" BW was. I am sure we will see another blog as some point about worker control or melee unit response rates and animations. Just to keep the narrative going on forever. Srsly i cant understand your bitching about it.
Its almost as if he is one of those guys who gets paid by companies to market and defend their product on sites. No insult intended, just an immpresion I have over some of his posts.
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And very well done OP. Out of all the other suggestions (economy, unit design and so forth) I do feel this is the most important one of them all. SC2 emphasises too much on speed and hence the elegance/finesse side of things get lost. SC2 can be so much better and be an indepth RTS game ,, not a semi RTS/RTA game.
On a side note.. and im sure many of you do notice this (and im surprised there hasn't been a thread about it or maybe Ive missed it) but I find the ingame unit sounds (and music) completely lacking which makes it harder for the viewers to comprehend what actually happened sometimes. In BW you clearly know what died, what got fired and whats attacking. If 6 dragoons died in a tank volley.. everyone would be thinking "terrible terrible damage". Actually even without watching but hearing alone, one can easily tell whats actually happening. In SC2 its quite hard to make out whats attacking and whats dying solely from sound alone.
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EPT
