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On October 31 2013 09:33 Falling wrote:
Holy. That lateral acceleration explains so much why SC2 air units feel so sluggish when trying to move them around. Definitely would be nice if the non-capital ships had that quicker accelerations.
It might also explain why as soon as I move my probes in SC2 I started getting annoyed that the units felt so sluggish. I thought it was maybe Battlnet 0.2, but if it's just the lack of acceleration on hover units.
Probes are more an issue of built in latency of b.net.
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On October 31 2013 09:28 laegoose wrote:
Certainly Blizzard know about this stuff, they put these variables in the Editor.
And I hate to interrupt agressing BW-loving in this thread, but I'm glad in SC2 it is possible to actually play and micro instead of trying to get units in right direction.
Heh, it does sound silly but practically, microing in BW was a lot more doable (for anyone) than in SC2. Again, the problem with SC2's micro is that a lot of it is one-dimensional and just involves speed and most of it just involves avoidance of some AoE attack (splitting marines against banelings, splitting or trying to deal with Widow Mines, etc). That is difficult but the fact that most of it is just that and there's nothing else, it's not as intriguing or fun and it's not as easy to learn or get into.
Also an important thing to note is that the pace of battles in BW is a lot more slower than in SC2, so you definitely had a bit more time to "pay attention to the direction the Mutalisk are facing" and things like that.
And when you just focus on a battle for a bit and (in a way) play ping pong with your opponent (instead of SC2 where I feel the battles start and end too fast), it becomes a much more thrilling experience IMO. This doesn't apply to just Mutalisk, a lot of BW units (each race some unit that was like this). Reavers and shuttle micro, vultures, wraiths, etc.
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Canada11379 Posts
On October 31 2013 09:36 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 09:33 Falling wrote:
Holy. That lateral acceleration explains so much why SC2 air units feel so sluggish when trying to move them around. Definitely would be nice if the non-capital ships had that quicker accelerations.
It might also explain why as soon as I move my probes in SC2 I started getting annoyed that the units felt so sluggish. I thought it was maybe Battlnet 0.2, but if it's just the lack of acceleration on hover units. Probes are more an issue of built in latency of b.net.
Oh ok. So it's still bn 0.2. Some things never change.
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Just wondering if the title is actually a pun? i.e.: Death of micro?
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Just watching the micro and the games, broodwar has such a mystique and allure to it. Still fresh and unsolved, so inviting. LIke a rare wild,wise ancient beast.
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Oh my god you are so awesome and this is so awesome and amazing and wow.
But, as they say and have said and will say...
Blizzard won't do anything.
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On October 31 2013 09:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 09:21 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 31 2013 09:09 Plansix wrote:On October 31 2013 09:02 LaLuSh wrote:On October 31 2013 08:58 Plansix wrote:On October 31 2013 08:53 StarStruck wrote:On October 31 2013 08:47 Plansix wrote:
Another thread where we compare BW to SC2. Its an interesting topic, but but will these ever end? It goes beyond a simple comparison. All developers should take note of such things and as it would improve the game-play of their game. I know, I watched a good chunk of it and it is well done. I am just bracing for the "BW = Perfect, Blizzard ruined legacy, SC2 inferior game" circle jerk that will take place soon. Its a good topic, but it tends to bring out the least fun parts of the "community". Better brace for the truth train. I wouldn't call the communities habit of fawning over BW like the second comings as truth. Its an amazing game, but the habit of a set group within SC2 community that loves to shit on the game isn't really an indicator of fact. Many people think every critisism = shitting on sc2. Well sometimes people act like that, but why dont many people even think about these things that are mentioned in the video? I for one got into esports with sc2 and still think its a great game (way better than mobas) but in the last 2-3 months i watched some broodwar aswell (snipealot, sospa) and think it is more exciting to watch. Thats the reason i am really interested in these posts that compare sc2 with bw and how these things change the game. Many people arent interested in this or they just dont understand it? Cause every time somebody even mentions bw there are a ton of people that get butthurt instantly and dont even care about the arguments, all they see is "bw >> sc2" and not the actual arguments. I think that is kinda sad.. I agree, but I also see trolls using those discussions to "justify" their shitting on SC2. Discussion is fine and I think the idea of microable units is important and should be discussed. I just get tired constant narrative that SC2 is worse than BW that dominates a lot of these thread.
When it comes to unit positioning and macro, SC2 is definitely the better one. Anyone remember the Goalith and Dragoon AI?
However, when it comes to micro and unit control, BW definitely had a lot more utility, compared to SC2.
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On October 31 2013 09:37 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 09:36 decemberscalm wrote:On October 31 2013 09:33 Falling wrote:
Holy. That lateral acceleration explains so much why SC2 air units feel so sluggish when trying to move them around. Definitely would be nice if the non-capital ships had that quicker accelerations.
It might also explain why as soon as I move my probes in SC2 I started getting annoyed that the units felt so sluggish. I thought it was maybe Battlnet 0.2, but if it's just the lack of acceleration on hover units. Probes are more an issue of built in latency of b.net. Oh ok. So it's still bn 0.2. Some things never change.
It's not only for that reason.
On October 31 2013 08:50 decemberscalm wrote:
Another issue is moving shot for ground units.
It is currently impossible to give them a moving shot without making them like a phoenix. Acquiring a target will make them dead stop.
For the Starbow vulture, I had to use triggers to manually slow the unit down, 2 weapons, an extra ability that acts as a target fire. It was insane how much work I had to do to get a simple moving shot for a ground unit.
Needless to say Starbow does not have moving shots for the drone, probe, or archon because of the insane lengths you must go to to implement it.
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While this explains a lot, and while we can hope that Blizzard does something with this in LotV... I think it's about as likely to happen as a complete Protoss redesign.
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On October 31 2013 09:47 hansonslee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 09:33 Plansix wrote:On October 31 2013 09:21 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 31 2013 09:09 Plansix wrote:On October 31 2013 09:02 LaLuSh wrote:On October 31 2013 08:58 Plansix wrote:On October 31 2013 08:53 StarStruck wrote:On October 31 2013 08:47 Plansix wrote:
Another thread where we compare BW to SC2. Its an interesting topic, but but will these ever end? It goes beyond a simple comparison. All developers should take note of such things and as it would improve the game-play of their game. I know, I watched a good chunk of it and it is well done. I am just bracing for the "BW = Perfect, Blizzard ruined legacy, SC2 inferior game" circle jerk that will take place soon. Its a good topic, but it tends to bring out the least fun parts of the "community". Better brace for the truth train. I wouldn't call the communities habit of fawning over BW like the second comings as truth. Its an amazing game, but the habit of a set group within SC2 community that loves to shit on the game isn't really an indicator of fact. Many people think every critisism = shitting on sc2. Well sometimes people act like that, but why dont many people even think about these things that are mentioned in the video? I for one got into esports with sc2 and still think its a great game (way better than mobas) but in the last 2-3 months i watched some broodwar aswell (snipealot, sospa) and think it is more exciting to watch. Thats the reason i am really interested in these posts that compare sc2 with bw and how these things change the game. Many people arent interested in this or they just dont understand it? Cause every time somebody even mentions bw there are a ton of people that get butthurt instantly and dont even care about the arguments, all they see is "bw >> sc2" and not the actual arguments. I think that is kinda sad.. I agree, but I also see trolls using those discussions to "justify" their shitting on SC2. Discussion is fine and I think the idea of microable units is important and should be discussed. I just get tired constant narrative that SC2 is worse than BW that dominates a lot of these thread. When it comes to unit positioning and macro, SC2 is definitely the better one. Anyone remember the Goalith and Dragoon AI? However, when it comes to micro and unit control, BW definitely had a lot more utility, compared to SC2.
You have right idea.
Except that macro in BW actually distinguished player to another player. BW had more methods of winning where as SC2, even though still competitive have less utility (like you just said in the regard). I think what you meant is that in terms of AI, SC2 definitely have the edge. Macro-wise, BW's macro economical management have more overall impact toward the end result of the game.
To sum up:
SC2 Server + Graphical Engine + AI > BW
however
BW Gameplay, Music, community features > SC2.
The core of a game is ofc its gameplay so in that sense, BW is superior if you strip everything down to its skeletal structure.
If only they can somehow merge the pros of both games and remove the cons. It all depends on Blizzard but at this point in time, I don't entirely have faith in that aspect.
BTW, good effort LaLush, will watch as my bedtime story.
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As a person who never played bw, Ive always felt that sc2 is completely unintuitive when it comes to micro, both from a player and a viewerperspective. Most notable, for me at any rate, is the tank where it makes literally no sense why its tracking "resets" each time you move the unit. I mean seriously, what THE FUCK was blizzard thinking. It's so damn obvious when you look at this video how a continous tracking of the tanks turret both looks and feels right. Same goes with pretty much every suggestion lalush made.
I think they ought to increase the depth of micro but only in ways that are noticable from a viewer standpoint. To make something more difficult without it being clear for a viewer defeats the purpose of e-sports (it would be similar to using a crappy fotball which may make playing more difficult but does nothing for the viewers).
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This is great! So often people call for less practical and more controversial changes like changing unit clumping. These are specific, easy fixes that would definitely have the intended effects, I don't see why these changes shouldn't be made.
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Great video and great points. I don't know why Blizzard turned their heads on these things and why they decided on a different direction, when SC1 micro was a lot more deep and a lot more interesting to watch.
I sure hope Blizzard sees this and fixes some of the issues to make SC2 a more enjoyable esports experience.
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Canada11379 Posts
On October 31 2013 10:02 Snusmumriken wrote:
I think they ought to increase the depth of micro but only in ways that are noticable from a viewer standpoint. To make something more difficult without it being clear for a viewer defeats the purpose of e-sports (it would be similar to using a crappy fotball which may make playing more difficult but does nothing for the viewers).
This sort of movement micro IS very noticable to viewers. There's a reason it was watched on tv and it wasn't because of buggy AI. Movement micro, such as moving shot, adds no extra information to the screen like a spell. Therefore the micro is generally clutter free. When you combine it with proper unit stacking (for air), there is even less clutter on the screen.
Unstacked air combined with a ground battle over top of base is extremely busy and confusing due to overlapping units-even in BW. I took a screen shot in my last BW is for Newbs blog and even I had not a clue what the hell was going on in the picture. Throw in similarily coloured spells (green for Zerg, blue bubbles for Protoss) and you add to the confusion.
But with moving shot micro, the screen is clean with only small group tactics. It's easy to see and exciting to see. It is spectator friendly and pro friendly. If we can tinker with the game at the root level like we see in this video, SC2 will bring a LOT to the table as a competitive, spectator sport.
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I wish Blizzard would hire him to lead design for LOTV, would be an amazing game if someone with his understanding were at the helm. The skill ceiling would be so much higher and the truly best RTS players in the world would be so much more impressive to watch if they could show their full potential and talent.
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On October 31 2013 10:01 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 09:47 hansonslee wrote:On October 31 2013 09:33 Plansix wrote:On October 31 2013 09:21 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 31 2013 09:09 Plansix wrote:On October 31 2013 09:02 LaLuSh wrote:On October 31 2013 08:58 Plansix wrote:On October 31 2013 08:53 StarStruck wrote:On October 31 2013 08:47 Plansix wrote:
Another thread where we compare BW to SC2. Its an interesting topic, but but will these ever end? It goes beyond a simple comparison. All developers should take note of such things and as it would improve the game-play of their game. I know, I watched a good chunk of it and it is well done. I am just bracing for the "BW = Perfect, Blizzard ruined legacy, SC2 inferior game" circle jerk that will take place soon. Its a good topic, but it tends to bring out the least fun parts of the "community". Better brace for the truth train. I wouldn't call the communities habit of fawning over BW like the second comings as truth. Its an amazing game, but the habit of a set group within SC2 community that loves to shit on the game isn't really an indicator of fact. Many people think every critisism = shitting on sc2. Well sometimes people act like that, but why dont many people even think about these things that are mentioned in the video? I for one got into esports with sc2 and still think its a great game (way better than mobas) but in the last 2-3 months i watched some broodwar aswell (snipealot, sospa) and think it is more exciting to watch. Thats the reason i am really interested in these posts that compare sc2 with bw and how these things change the game. Many people arent interested in this or they just dont understand it? Cause every time somebody even mentions bw there are a ton of people that get butthurt instantly and dont even care about the arguments, all they see is "bw >> sc2" and not the actual arguments. I think that is kinda sad.. I agree, but I also see trolls using those discussions to "justify" their shitting on SC2. Discussion is fine and I think the idea of microable units is important and should be discussed. I just get tired constant narrative that SC2 is worse than BW that dominates a lot of these thread. When it comes to unit positioning and macro, SC2 is definitely the better one. Anyone remember the Goalith and Dragoon AI? However, when it comes to micro and unit control, BW definitely had a lot more utility, compared to SC2. You have right idea. Except that macro in BW actually distinguished player to another player. BW had more methods of winning where as SC2, even though still competitive have less utility (like you just said in the regard). I think what you meant is that in terms of AI, SC2 definitely have the edge. Macro-wise, BW's macro economical management have more overall impact toward the end result of the game. To sum up: SC2 Server + Graphical Engine + AI > BW however BW Gameplay, Music, community features > SC2. The core of a game is ofc its gameplay so in that sense, BW is superior if you strip everything down to its skeletal structure. If only they can somehow merge the pros of both games and remove the cons. It all depends on Blizzard but at this point in time, I don't entirely have faith in that aspect. BTW, good effort LaLush, will watch as my bedtime story.
I think both games have their flaws when it comes to A.I. As in the unit pathing in SC2 really works against itself when it comes to the follow clumping and we all know how dragoons act in BW. :/ As for positioning, I'm really interested what a defender's advantage would do in SC2. We'd definitely see more mech from Terran.
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On October 31 2013 10:01 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 09:47 hansonslee wrote:On October 31 2013 09:33 Plansix wrote:On October 31 2013 09:21 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 31 2013 09:09 Plansix wrote:On October 31 2013 09:02 LaLuSh wrote:On October 31 2013 08:58 Plansix wrote:On October 31 2013 08:53 StarStruck wrote:On October 31 2013 08:47 Plansix wrote:
Another thread where we compare BW to SC2. Its an interesting topic, but but will these ever end? It goes beyond a simple comparison. All developers should take note of such things and as it would improve the game-play of their game. I know, I watched a good chunk of it and it is well done. I am just bracing for the "BW = Perfect, Blizzard ruined legacy, SC2 inferior game" circle jerk that will take place soon. Its a good topic, but it tends to bring out the least fun parts of the "community". Better brace for the truth train. I wouldn't call the communities habit of fawning over BW like the second comings as truth. Its an amazing game, but the habit of a set group within SC2 community that loves to shit on the game isn't really an indicator of fact. Many people think every critisism = shitting on sc2. Well sometimes people act like that, but why dont many people even think about these things that are mentioned in the video? I for one got into esports with sc2 and still think its a great game (way better than mobas) but in the last 2-3 months i watched some broodwar aswell (snipealot, sospa) and think it is more exciting to watch. Thats the reason i am really interested in these posts that compare sc2 with bw and how these things change the game. Many people arent interested in this or they just dont understand it? Cause every time somebody even mentions bw there are a ton of people that get butthurt instantly and dont even care about the arguments, all they see is "bw >> sc2" and not the actual arguments. I think that is kinda sad.. I agree, but I also see trolls using those discussions to "justify" their shitting on SC2. Discussion is fine and I think the idea of microable units is important and should be discussed. I just get tired constant narrative that SC2 is worse than BW that dominates a lot of these thread. When it comes to unit positioning and macro, SC2 is definitely the better one. Anyone remember the Goalith and Dragoon AI? However, when it comes to micro and unit control, BW definitely had a lot more utility, compared to SC2. You have right idea. Except that macro in BW actually distinguished player to another player. BW had more methods of winning where as SC2, even though still competitive have less utility (like you just said in the regard). I think what you meant is that in terms of AI, SC2 definitely have the edge. Macro-wise, BW's macro economical management have more overall impact toward the end result of the game. To sum up: SC2 Server + Graphical Engine + AI > BW however BW Gameplay, Music, community features > SC2. The core of a game is ofc its gameplay so in that sense, BW is superior if you strip everything down to its skeletal structure. If only they can somehow merge the pros of both games and remove the cons. It all depends on Blizzard but at this point in time, I don't entirely have faith in that aspect. BTW, good effort LaLush, will watch as my bedtime story.
I feel you with the low faith in Blizzard. However, I think Blizzard is working on LotV, and I am pretty sure that they are looking into community feedback to improve the game and scene (Blizzard, believe it or not, aims to improve their products to the next level). Also, unlike most suggestions, lalush's vouched for very simple and easy-to-make fixes and explained his points quite well. I think Blizzard, if they are reasonable human beings, would definitely consider lalush's thoughts.
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On October 31 2013 10:13 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 31 2013 10:01 Xiphos wrote:On October 31 2013 09:47 hansonslee wrote:On October 31 2013 09:33 Plansix wrote:On October 31 2013 09:21 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 31 2013 09:09 Plansix wrote:On October 31 2013 09:02 LaLuSh wrote:On October 31 2013 08:58 Plansix wrote:On October 31 2013 08:53 StarStruck wrote:On October 31 2013 08:47 Plansix wrote:
Another thread where we compare BW to SC2. Its an interesting topic, but but will these ever end? It goes beyond a simple comparison. All developers should take note of such things and as it would improve the game-play of their game. I know, I watched a good chunk of it and it is well done. I am just bracing for the "BW = Perfect, Blizzard ruined legacy, SC2 inferior game" circle jerk that will take place soon. Its a good topic, but it tends to bring out the least fun parts of the "community". Better brace for the truth train. I wouldn't call the communities habit of fawning over BW like the second comings as truth. Its an amazing game, but the habit of a set group within SC2 community that loves to shit on the game isn't really an indicator of fact. Many people think every critisism = shitting on sc2. Well sometimes people act like that, but why dont many people even think about these things that are mentioned in the video? I for one got into esports with sc2 and still think its a great game (way better than mobas) but in the last 2-3 months i watched some broodwar aswell (snipealot, sospa) and think it is more exciting to watch. Thats the reason i am really interested in these posts that compare sc2 with bw and how these things change the game. Many people arent interested in this or they just dont understand it? Cause every time somebody even mentions bw there are a ton of people that get butthurt instantly and dont even care about the arguments, all they see is "bw >> sc2" and not the actual arguments. I think that is kinda sad.. I agree, but I also see trolls using those discussions to "justify" their shitting on SC2. Discussion is fine and I think the idea of microable units is important and should be discussed. I just get tired constant narrative that SC2 is worse than BW that dominates a lot of these thread. When it comes to unit positioning and macro, SC2 is definitely the better one. Anyone remember the Goalith and Dragoon AI? However, when it comes to micro and unit control, BW definitely had a lot more utility, compared to SC2. You have right idea. Except that macro in BW actually distinguished player to another player. BW had more methods of winning where as SC2, even though still competitive have less utility (like you just said in the regard). I think what you meant is that in terms of AI, SC2 definitely have the edge. Macro-wise, BW's macro economical management have more overall impact toward the end result of the game. To sum up: SC2 Server + Graphical Engine + AI > BW however BW Gameplay, Music, community features > SC2. The core of a game is ofc its gameplay so in that sense, BW is superior if you strip everything down to its skeletal structure. If only they can somehow merge the pros of both games and remove the cons. It all depends on Blizzard but at this point in time, I don't entirely have faith in that aspect. BTW, good effort LaLush, will watch as my bedtime story. I think both games have their flaws when it comes to A.I. As in the unit pathing in SC2 really works against itself when it comes to the follow clumping and we all know how dragoons act in BW. :/ As for positioning, I'm really interested what a defender's advantage would do in SC2. We'd definitely see more mech from Terran.
Hehe, I was trying to do 3 vs 3 in term of advantage point there, but you just have to remove one from the SC2's court.
In term of defender's advantage, there should DEFINITELY be one. Even though BW had the right idea in that by dmg miss-chances. It's too coin-flippy for my taste as competition should be based upon uncertainties. To introduce that facet w/o render it fortune heavy would be to have dmg reduction instead so everything should be more linearly calculated.
Blizzard, the ball is in your court. Toss it or keep it.
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firstly thank you so much for such a well made and concise video, i'm sure for a lot of old brood war players who played at a high level this either confirms or just neatly restates a lot of deeply felt "wrongisms" about how unit micro handles so poorly in a game that should have seen proactive improvements to these aspects in the development stages or fixed the dreadful flaws in a reactive approach post release.
secondly, these sorts of depressingly basic design problems are just infuriating. some hard questions continue to go unanswered; how did they go backwards in so many ways? they owned all the intellectual properties of all these superior micro mechanics in brood war, so despite the key players being absent from sc2's design process, there is no excuse besides sloppiness or conscious decisions to head in the wrong direction. i really am not sure which is worse. here's hoping that the community can unite behind such cogent arguments for basic engine improvements to sc2 - better late than never!
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EPT
