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On June 13 2015 22:07 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2015 21:50 ejozl wrote:
Exactly, it's also why they don't want the macro part of the game to be the biggest part, because for a newer spectator/casual it's hard to grasp and there's nothing flashy about it at all.
ex. It's hard to see why Bomber does so well, because his micro is not at all his strongest suit, so for a newer viewer you might think he sucks, since there's so many micro 'mistakes.' But in reality he is winning by doing everything else right.
As for the responsiveness of units, I'm up for discussing single unit changes, like the Siege Tank one, but an across the board increase of responsiveness is not happening, since it removes character from the unit.
Having an entire army composed of almost every single unit in the game and just stutterstepping everything back at the same time, because they have no delay/or other kind of encumbrance, is also something that is not pleasant for the eye. It removes character for the unit? In what way? Making a unit more responsive and allowing people with high levels of micro to really focus on making that unit do the maximum amount of damage isn't adding character but taking it away? You want to just watch a unit a move because that's the most efficient way of getting damage from it? Just because everything can stutterstep effectively doesn't mean that you can just hotkey your whole army and stutterstep it back and isn't that pretty much all TvZ (Considered the best MU by casual and hardcore players) they stutterstep and split. The point of a caster, is to make points that appeal to people who have no clue and people who have knowledge at a higher level, if you've watched enough bomber games most casters will point out how amazing bombers macro and tell them to watch his supply count ect, the game shouldn't be restrained and handicapped for us higher level players because of spectators, the casters can pander/explain to them how incredible that micro move was if they don't understand.
Both in BW and WC3 there was merit to take advantage of or mastering non-perfect or even buggy unit behavior, so that can also be good for the game. Bad unit pathing in WC3 was an immensely important aspect to master for example. It's not like making units more responsive in general necessarily makes the game any better or more competitive, or even make it take more skill. I agree with your point on Bomber though, and I think almost all viewers can recognize Bomber's unique ability to macro up a huge army.
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On June 13 2015 22:52 JCoto wrote:
Think of this example: I'm a Protoss and I'm moving with 3 Immortals on the map. I have 3 valuable units with good resistance that I would like to micro to minimize their exposition, using my skill to favor the outcome of the fight. Can I? Not much, because Immortals have dumb turrets + damage point and they move slow. They are quite unresponsive to do that. Improving it and removing clunkyness would not turn immortals to marines.
The best players can make warp prism + immortal micro extremely effective an fun to watch. I'd rather see that than just constantly moving the immortal to the edge of their range to be most effective. I think these are aspects blizzard takes in consideration when making the decision of having a non-responsive unit. Other units like zerglings and marines are extremely responsive and I can see the point of this bringing unique character to these units. Stalker stutterstep and marine stutterstep looks very different and this is just because the stalker has a slow attack initiation, same as hydras. It does bring about a unique aspect of each unit which I do appreciate. Immortals are just not that effective to stutterstep, so playing around that makes them unique in a way.
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On June 13 2015 23:25 cheekymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2015 22:52 JCoto wrote:
Think of this example: I'm a Protoss and I'm moving with 3 Immortals on the map. I have 3 valuable units with good resistance that I would like to micro to minimize their exposition, using my skill to favor the outcome of the fight. Can I? Not much, because Immortals have dumb turrets + damage point and they move slow. They are quite unresponsive to do that. Improving it and removing clunkyness would not turn immortals to marines. The best players can make warp prism + immortal micro extremely effective an fun to watch. I'd rather see that than just constantly moving the immortal to the edge of their range to be most effective. I think these are aspects blizzard takes in consideration when making the decision of having a non-responsive unit. Other units like zerglings and marines are extremely responsive and I can see the point of this bringing unique character to these units. Stalker stutterstep and marine stutterstep looks very different and this is just because the stalker has a slow attack initiation, same as hydras. It does bring about a unique aspect of each unit which I do appreciate. Immortals are just not that effective to stutterstep, so playing around that makes them unique in a way.
And what is the result of Immortals being hardly microable? "A-move, A-move" being claimed to death.
Warp prism micro doesn't interfere with normal movement micro. Both are compatible
Tracking turrets improve responsiveness basically on retreat maneuvers but specially empowers microing around during the battle. Immos/Tank stutterstepping is already limited by speed.
Having that would simply improve Immortal/Tank dynamics a bit, since, in fact, turrets already track as long as there is units into the attack range as long as you don't change facing much. With it fixed to adjust to scan range (or 1 bonus scan range) or simply no resetting, it could be a bit more responsive since you could move Tanks/ Immortals from side to side without adding delays to the attacks, but what's more important, to mess with AI of other units that are focusing them (baits) or create interesting interactions (micro "dance" vs Lurker spines).
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The best players can make warp prism + immortal micro extremely effective an fun to watch. I'd rather see that than just constantly moving the immortal to the edge of their range to be most effective. I
With 0 damagepoint the Immortal synergy with Warp Prism micro will also be buffed since it will be able to fire instantly when dropped out of a Warp Prism! There is no reason to expect that a more responsive Immortal will result in less Warp Prism micro.
Instead, in scenarios where you do not have a Warp Prism, you will see movement-related micro instead of simple amove.
It removes character, if every unit is a Marine.
With the same logic: It removes character if every unit is an Immortal with 0.167 damage point.
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On June 13 2015 23:50 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +
The best players can make warp prism + immortal micro extremely effective an fun to watch. I'd rather see that than just constantly moving the immortal to the edge of their range to be most effective. I
With 0 damagepoint the Immortal synergy with Warp Prism micro will also be buffed since it will be able to fire instantly when dropped out of a Warp Prism! There is no reason to expect that a more responsive Immortal will result in less Warp Prism micro.
Are you talking about 0 delay before the shot, or just the movable turret here? I believe that with a movable turret or 0 damagepoint this will result in less WP micro, because players would probably make sure to constantly have their immortals just at the edge of their range (7), and this would be immensely powerful. As it is now, you can't actually keep your immortals constantly on the move while being as damage effective as possible. As stationary as they are now, they are more prone to force fire, which exactly the reason why WP micro is so useful.
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I believe it will result in less WP micro, because with a movable turret players would probably make sure to constantly have their immortals just at the edge of their range (7), and this would be immensely powerful
Your forgetting that it if the responsiveness of the Immortal is buffed you can maintain the same level of balance by nerfing its core stats, e.g. lower HP/shield. This will make it more important to keep it alive. Anyway, a 2.25 speed Immortal is still way too slow to effectively take advantage of a 0 damage point so this discussion is almost pointless. Would make more sense to look at a 2.75 speed Immortal with 0 DP and weaker core stats.
FYI, their range is 6 not 7!
But even if it had 7 range it would also scale better with Warp Prism drops (just as damage point). Its only higher movement speed that doesn't make it scale better with Warp Prism.
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On June 14 2015 00:58 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +
I believe it will result in less WP micro, because with a movable turret players would probably make sure to constantly have their immortals just at the edge of their range (7), and this would be immensely powerful
Your forgetting that it if the responsiveness of the Immortal is buffed you can maintain the same level of balance by nerfing its core stats, e.g. lower HP/shield.
First off, high HP/shield is what's unique about the immortal. And I don't see the point of completely revamping it as a unit by changing its stats. It's kind of besides the issue as well, as this is more about how the game would become with better responsiveness and streamlined unit behavior.
EDIT: Right, 6 range. But still 2 more than roaches. I don't think lower damagepoint would scale that much with WP micro. You'd still usually pick it up and drop it elsewhere where it will usually stay for at least a period of more than one shot.
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0 damage point on immortals with a warpprism would own roaches. Roaches wouldnt be able to do a got damn thing.
Is this fun gameplay? No its not.
Its about micro and counter micro, thats the fun part.
If i look back at broodwar(played it recently btw), the dragoons there is alot more fun to play with, to micro with over units in sc2.
If its possible to add counter micro with 0attack point, iam open to it but right now i dont see it working well.
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On June 14 2015 01:26 Foxxan wrote:
0 damage point on immortals with a warpprism would own roaches. Roaches wouldnt be able to do a got damn thing.
Is this fun gameplay? No its not.
Its about micro and counter micro, thats the fun part.
If i look back at broodwar(played it recently btw), the dragoons there is alot more fun to play with, to micro with over units in sc2.
If its possible to add counter micro with 0attack point, iam open to it but right now i dont see it working well.
Immortal with increased speed and tracking turret would be exactly like dragoons in BW.
Damage point is good to have since it adds "stops" that mean trading damage.
I think a good microable Immortal concept would be tracking turret but with damage point, and increased speed. Gameplay-wise, decreased mineral cost, decreased damavge vs armor, and improved passive + range increase (7).
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On June 14 2015 01:26 Foxxan wrote:
0 damage point on immortals with a warpprism would own roaches. Roaches wouldnt be able to do a got damn thing.
Is this fun gameplay? No its not.
Its about micro and counter micro, thats the fun part.
If i look back at broodwar(played it recently btw), the dragoons there is alot more fun to play with, to micro with over units in sc2.
If its possible to add counter micro with 0attack point, iam open to it but right now i dont see it working well.
Well it's a good thing zerg don't only have roaches? With Lotv, there's more than enough counters to the Immortal stalker sentry pushes and assuming zerg units are getting the same treatment, hydralisk will be pretty powerful to stopping this with their larger range and high dps.
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On June 13 2015 21:15 Alcathous wrote:
I don't understand why people are still debating. SC2 is what it is. Take it or leave it. As a consumer you only talk with your wallet.
Because we're running out of games to play... both SC2 and CSGO have major problems. There aren't any good games left to play...
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There is more to life than games.
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First time seeing this.
Why hasn't any of this been looked at? It's been nearly two years!
If it has, what is Blizzard's reasoning? It would be really nice to know why they seem to not want the game to be better 
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On June 28 2015 12:44 Jaedrik wrote:First time seeing this. Why hasn't any of this been looked at? It's been nearly two years! If it has, what is Blizzard's reasoning? It would be really nice to know why they seem to not want the game to be better
They have. A number of LaLush's suggestions have already made it into LOTV. Not all though. Not surprisingly, their opinions differ on what 'makes the game better'.
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On June 28 2015 12:44 Jaedrik wrote:First time seeing this. Why hasn't any of this been looked at? It's been nearly two years! If it has, what is Blizzard's reasoning? It would be really nice to know why they seem to not want the game to be better
There has been some discussion about their opinions (or presumed opinions) in this thread as well (if that interests you).
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On June 13 2015 23:50 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +
The best players can make warp prism + immortal micro extremely effective an fun to watch. I'd rather see that than just constantly moving the immortal to the edge of their range to be most effective. I
With 0 damagepoint the Immortal synergy with Warp Prism micro will also be buffed since it will be able to fire instantly when dropped out of a Warp Prism! There is no reason to expect that a more responsive Immortal will result in less Warp Prism micro. Instead, in scenarios where you do not have a Warp Prism, you will see movement-related micro instead of simple amove. With the same logic: It removes character if every unit is an Immortal with 0.167 damage point.
Yes.
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Well at leat they are noticing the air moving shot problem.
And the turret problem but only for immortal and siege tanks.
Lets hope they do more then that in LotV
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On June 14 2015 01:41 JCoto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2015 01:26 Foxxan wrote:
0 damage point on immortals with a warpprism would own roaches. Roaches wouldnt be able to do a got damn thing.
Is this fun gameplay? No its not.
Its about micro and counter micro, thats the fun part.
If i look back at broodwar(played it recently btw), the dragoons there is alot more fun to play with, to micro with over units in sc2.
If its possible to add counter micro with 0attack point, iam open to it but right now i dont see it working well. Immortal with increased speed and tracking turret would be exactly like dragoons in BW. Damage point is good to have since it adds "stops" that mean trading damage. I think a good microable Immortal concept would be tracking turret but with damage point, and increased speed. Gameplay-wise, decreased mineral cost, decreased damavge vs armor, and improved passive + range increase (7).
The BW dragoon had quite a bit of damage point. That's why spider mines were effective vs them.
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On June 14 2015 01:26 Foxxan wrote:
0 damage point on immortals with a warpprism would own roaches. Roaches wouldnt be able to do a got damn thing.
Is this fun gameplay? No its not.
Well, roaches with a zero damage point could probably just run under the prism and get a lot of damage onto the immortal anytime it drops out.
On June 14 2015 01:41 JCoto wrote:
Damage point is good to have since it adds "stops" that mean trading damage.
I think a good microable Immortal concept would be tracking turret but with damage point, and increased speed. Gameplay-wise, decreased mineral cost, decreased damavge vs armor, and improved passive + range increase (7).
Well, you have to stop anyways because of human limitations. Even marauders with their 0damage point cannot be microed without having to stop and shoot. This is the cool thing with 0 (or near 0) damage point, it allows for unlimited scaling as a human isn't fast enough anyways. The punishment factor is still there, but skilldependent.
Though I don not necessarily disagree about damage point on some units. But at the moment what blizzard has in the game is this standard value of 0.167 damage point which is just a lazy solution. If you have a concept like damage point, it has to be customized for every unit because of different attack cooldowns and movements speeds.
For example, a roach can live quite well with a damage point of 0.167 because it is very fast and has a very long attack cooldown. It can still use move and shoot micro.
However, giving the tank with a slower speed and double the attack speed the same attack cooldown makes it nearly useless in microing. For the roach that is 10% of it's cooldown that it cannot move, but for the tank it is 20%. And on top of it it moves less anyways. And then you add an absolute value of reaction time on top that the human is going to be slower to not cancel the attack, so it's not like 0.167 but in reality it is like 0.25 or so that you will not move your unit.
For a roach that is still not a micro killer because that leaves 1.75seconds of fast movement. But for a tank that means 0.79seconds of slow movement before it holds still for another 0.25seconds.
The worst in that relation is probably the hydralisk with 0.83cooldown and a higher-than-usual 0.21damage point. There is just no point really microing hydralisks with those relations, because the 33% of time they will stand still will be enough for most opponents to catch up with the 0.5second movement between shots and then get their attack off, which probably has a longer attack cooldown and therefore will rarely be missed/delayed, even with perfect hydralisk kiting against amoving.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/3dk1re/legacy_of_the_void_balance_update_july_16_2015/ct63l28
From Lalush on reddit:
Air units glide normally in all situations now. Their momentum is no longer disrupted when they overlap and attack. In addition to that air units no longer seem to be disrupted when overkilling, nor upon a target's death.
Basically: now air units retain their sliding motion no matter what, whereas previously there used to be a bunch of stuff which caused air units to dead stop and overrode what most likely was the intended behavior for air units all along (them smoothly decelerating to stops).
I think this only applies to LotV beta, but it seems one of the issues mentioned in the video has been addressed by Blizzard.
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EPT
