EPTDepth of Micro - Page 2
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Bulugulu
Israel250 Posts
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xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
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hansonslee
United States2027 Posts
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
On October 31 2013 09:01 Cheren wrote: I'm curious as to whether people really want units to turn faster. I thought one of the most common arguments for Dota 2 over LoL was that the units didn't turn instantaneously. It's really all about making air units more microable. If you watched the micro highlights in the second part of the video, that sort of wraith micro would never be possible with Sc2 air units and the vulture micro wouldn't be possible with hellions. Not that every Sc2 unit needs to behave like a BW unit, but in general I think it's fair to say that we want units to be microable. We want better players being able to distinguish themselves by making the most of all their units. In BW, quite a few of the top players had signature units. Even with the crazy level BW pros had reached over the years, these players were able to micro those units better than any other player. Jaedong's mutas, Jangbi's storms, Fantasy's vultures and Leta's wraiths are just a few examples. It made players much more distinct, it's one of the things that gave them a style. There is some of that in Sc2 as well. Even among top pros you can distinguish different levels of marine control and life's zerglings still seem to always do more than any other Zerg's, but in general, there's much less. I couldn't distinguish different pros' muta control for example, and I've watched a LOT of professional Sc2. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On October 31 2013 09:18 hansonslee wrote: If we get this message out, then Blizzard might make the changes. I remember Nony made a video showcasing the difference between SC1 carriers and SC2 carriers. Now, SC2 Carriers have very similar interceptor AI to their Brood War counterpart. We should start an awareness campaign for a video like this!!! They didn't completely fix it. You have to retarget as SOON as you kill something in sc2. If interceptors start heading back it is already too late to click a new target. In BW as long as the interceptors were outside of the carrier you can retarget, and you don't have to stare at interceptors heading back to the carrier just to get launched again. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
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TaShadan
Germany1981 Posts
On October 31 2013 09:18 hansonslee wrote: If we get this message out, then Blizzard might make the changes. I remember Nony made a video showcasing the difference between SC1 carriers and SC2 carriers. Now, SC2 Carriers have very similar interceptor AI to their Brood War counterpart. We should start an awareness campaign for a video like this!!! If you would have watched the video you would know that they didnt solve the problem. | ||
iHirO
United Kingdom1381 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On October 31 2013 09:09 Plansix wrote: I wouldn't call the communities habit of fawning over BW like the second comings as truth. Its an amazing game, but the habit of a set group within SC2 community that loves to shit on the game isn't really an indicator of fact. Many people think every critisism = shitting on sc2. Well sometimes people act like that, but why dont many people even think about these things that are mentioned in the video? I for one got into esports with sc2 and still think its a great game (way better than mobas) but in the last 2-3 months i watched some broodwar aswell (snipealot, sospa) and think it is more exciting to watch. Thats the reason i am really interested in these posts that compare sc2 with bw and how these things change the game. Many people arent interested in this or they just dont understand it? Cause every time somebody even mentions bw there are a ton of people that get butthurt instantly and dont even care about the arguments, all they see is "bw >> sc2" and not the actual arguments. I think that is kinda sad.. | ||
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YumYumGranola
Canada346 Posts
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Falling
Canada11587 Posts
Wow you have really outdone yourself thist time. I feel like with a lot of my blogs, I've been skirting around what makes a unit microable vs not. But you have delved into the guts of the game. I'm only a quarter the way through, but there's a lot there already. That separation prioritized over glide makes total sense. My A-move by design, I tried to make a vod comparing mutalisk micro BW vs SC2, but was a loss to explain it and threw it down at the bottom with a big question mark. That 120ms, I had observed in several units, but didn't have the numbers for. I had written a blog, made the pics for it and decided not to post it. But it was largely about the importance of burst damage rather than continous fire. This was going to be used to explain the difference between burst shot (most BW units) and longer fire- a lot of beam weapons in SC2. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lfZWVeK.png) I had drawn red circles on small delays that possibly occur when a unit transitions from attacking to moving or moving to attacking. Presumably the 120 ms occurs at the second red circle on the lower example. I will keep watching. edit. Interesting that certain automation (overkill prevention) screws up manual control- player micro and keeping groups together. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On October 31 2013 09:19 Orome wrote: It's really all about making air units more microable. If you watched the micro highlights in the second part of the video, that sort of wraith micro would never be possible with Sc2 air units and the vulture micro wouldn't be possible with hellions. Not that every Sc2 unit needs to behave like a BW unit, but in general I think it's fair to say that we want units to be microable. We want better players being able to distinguish themselves by making the most of all their units. In BW, quite a few of the top players had signature units. Even with the crazy level BW pros had reached over the years, these players were able to micro those units better than any other player. Jaedong's mutas, Jangbi's storms, Fantasy's vultures and Leta's wraiths are just a few examples. It made players much more distinct, it's one of the things that gave them a style. There is some of that in Sc2 as well. Even among top pros you can distinguish different levels of marine control and life's zerglings still seem to always do more than any other Zerg's, but in general, there's much less. I couldn't distinguish different pros' muta control for example, and I've watched a LOT of professional Sc2. Micro is fundamentally removed in a lot of ways. In BW, if you have 6 lings and tell them to go kill a probe, they will not be able to kill it unless you surround it. Unless you are substantially faster than the unit you are chasing, the unit needs to be micro'ed. That probe you are chasing? It can still juke and dodge. In SC2, if a unit is faster, it will just keep hitting it while chasing. That probe has no micro that will save it, the zerglings don't need to do anything. This is why Blizz had to put in things like charge that garuntee hits but they had to make the zealot slower than the unit they are chasing. If they were faster it would just be a slaughter. You get this very limiting way of micro. If you are faster than a unit, you can kite it. If not, tough luck, you will die shortly. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On October 31 2013 08:58 Plansix wrote: I know, I watched a good chunk of it and it is well done. I am just bracing for the "BW = Perfect, Blizzard ruined legacy, SC2 inferior game" circle jerk that will take place soon. Its a good topic, but it tends to bring out the least fun parts of the "community". He's not trying to say BW is perfect. I think these type of features can be used by any game developer. You seem to agree with that premise at least. I just laugh those bits off, so it doesn't affect me. | ||
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GizmoPT
Portugal3040 Posts
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Goldfish
2230 Posts
When people compare BW and SC2, they need to compare the depth of micro and not "how hard it is" to micro. Most micro in SC2 is one-dimensional and simply involves how fast you do it (splitting marines against banelings, etc). Besides speed, nothing else really matters. In BW, microing Mutalisk (for example) was a whole different story and the different ways you can micro and the amount of decisions to had to do is immense. For example, you always had to pay attention to the direction the Mutalisk were facing before you attacked move or hold position. If you ordered attacked move behind the Mutalisks, they would slow down and lose speed. You had to manually make them face the direction of the targets before you attacked move or hold position. OR Instead of that, you could use patrol to make them automatically attack anything behind them instantly without losing speed. You had to make sure to order the patrol at a certain distance and angle though. OR You could order the Mutalisk to attack a unit directly. Not only that, you had to judge which of the above is good for which situations. Here's TL page on using the Mutalisk. I always like to post this video along with anything related to Mutalisk: + Show Spoiler + Obviously, some things they can't copy exactly from BW but they definitely have the potential to add more depth to micro in SC2. I made a map trying to replicate some BW micro tricks (by using behavior buffs) and it worked to an extent. Here's my post and what I tried to do. The map is called "How to detect if a unit is facing a target before attacking (unprotected)" but it is sort of unfinished but some of the concepts are there and I'm not sure if anyone will find it useful or not. Microing in SC2 is hard but it's not as deep or intriguing as the potential of micro in BW. SC2's micro difficult only comes down to speed and how fast you can do it. There are only a few ways to use any unit in SC2 compared to BW where they are probably dozens of ways to control any individual unit. | ||
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laegoose
Russian Federation325 Posts
And I hate to interrupt agressive BW-loving in this thread, but I'm glad in SC2 it is possible to actually play and micro instead of trying to get units in the right direction. edit: typo | ||
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hansonslee
United States2027 Posts
On October 31 2013 09:20 decemberscalm wrote: They didn't completely fix it. You have to retarget as SOON as you kill something in sc2. If interceptors start heading back it is already too late to click a new target. In BW as long as the interceptors were outside of the carrier you can retarget, and you don't have to stare at interceptors heading back to the carrier just to get launched again. Yeah, you're right on the fact that it wasn't completely fixed, but the fact that Blizzard made the attempt should spark some hope that Blizzard will consider some of the suggestions made on this video. I actually also hope that they allow interceptors to regain hp/shields when they get back into the carrier. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On October 31 2013 09:28 laegoose wrote: Certainly Blizzard know about this stuff, they put these variables in the Editor. And I hate to interrupt agressing BW-loving in this thread, but I'm glad in SC2 it is possible to actually play and micro instead of trying to get units in right direction. Um, did you watch the video? I don't think you know what's being argued. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On October 31 2013 09:21 The_Red_Viper wrote: Many people think every critisism = shitting on sc2. Well sometimes people act like that, but why dont many people even think about these things that are mentioned in the video? I for one got into esports with sc2 and still think its a great game (way better than mobas) but in the last 2-3 months i watched some broodwar aswell (snipealot, sospa) and think it is more exciting to watch. Thats the reason i am really interested in these posts that compare sc2 with bw and how these things change the game. Many people arent interested in this or they just dont understand it? Cause every time somebody even mentions bw there are a ton of people that get butthurt instantly and dont even care about the arguments, all they see is "bw >> sc2" and not the actual arguments. I think that is kinda sad.. I agree, but I also see trolls using those discussions to "justify" their shitting on SC2. Discussion is fine and I think the idea of microable units is important and should be discussed. I just get tired constant narrative that SC2 is worse than BW that dominates a lot of these thread. | ||
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Falling
Canada11587 Posts
It might also explain why as soon as I move my probes in SC2 I started getting annoyed that the units felt so sluggish. Seriously. As soon as I move my probes, it bothers me. Too many RTS games have super sluggish units. Having the sluggish feel creep right down into the basics of game- the probe- was discouraging. I thought it was maybe Battlnet 0.2, but if it's just a limiting mechanic on hover units... | ||
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