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I'm seeing a lot of comments from people who are disappointed that we did not share the exact plans for WCS 2014. To clarify, we did not intend for this to be an announcement, or an announcement of an announcement for that matter  The reality is that we are still finalizing the details of WCS 2014 with our partners, however, we did not want to wait until everything was finalized before letting you know some of the things we were discussing. We want to give the community an opportunity to provide feedback before we locked down the specific details. We have outlined most of our plans and ideas in some of our answers, but haven't fully committed to any of the decisions because we want to hear from the community. Our goal is to confirm and announce the plans for WCS 2014 before BlizzCon. That gives you at least a week to give us your input on what we've shared! Thanks again for your support! -kimaphan |
On October 16 2013 04:54 for_the_swarm wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 04:34 Sissors wrote:On October 16 2013 04:24 for_the_swarm wrote:On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote:
We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities! 1) MUCH MORE prize money in Korea 2) MORE tournaments in Korea 3) MORE WCS Points in Korea this should entice the koreans the compete in Korea instead of coming to NA an EU for easy money and WCS points. Then we dont need a region lock. And for the foreigners good enough to compete with the koreans, they can go to korea to try to pick up additional WCS points and additional prize money. EZ PZ problem solved. Just do a region lock depending on where people live: So a Polt may happily continue playing in WCS AM. If forGG has a visa he may happily continue playing in WCS EU. But not living in KR and playing in EU/AM. Other regions (Africa, China, etc) may choose wherever they want to play. dont think that will work. If the prize pool stays relatively the same across all regions, what is going to stop koreans from physically moving to NA or EU? like MC, MMA, stardust, polt etc? They physical move to these regions and still continue to dominate. When more koreans do the same, which will inevitably happen, are people going to call for a Citizenship requirement?
You could do that, but I don't think it is a problem. Sure some will move, but I don't see it happening on large scale. A Polt is in the US for example for a different reason. Being able to easily play WCS AM is of course a nice bonus for him, but thats not the main reason he is there. And I think it is then not unreasonable to let him play there.
Also look at a WCS EU. Even for the better Koreans the online rounds aren't exactly a walkover, as a forgg can testify. So if they wouldn't have issues with completely moving to Europe (and they actually get a visa for it), then why don't they even play their challenger league/RO32 from Europe? But instead play from Korea, and get kicked out. Maybe with less latency they could have made it.
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On October 16 2013 05:00 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 04:54 for_the_swarm wrote:On October 16 2013 04:34 Sissors wrote:On October 16 2013 04:24 for_the_swarm wrote:On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote:
We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities! 1) MUCH MORE prize money in Korea 2) MORE tournaments in Korea 3) MORE WCS Points in Korea this should entice the koreans the compete in Korea instead of coming to NA an EU for easy money and WCS points. Then we dont need a region lock. And for the foreigners good enough to compete with the koreans, they can go to korea to try to pick up additional WCS points and additional prize money. EZ PZ problem solved. Just do a region lock depending on where people live: So a Polt may happily continue playing in WCS AM. If forGG has a visa he may happily continue playing in WCS EU. But not living in KR and playing in EU/AM. Other regions (Africa, China, etc) may choose wherever they want to play. dont think that will work. If the prize pool stays relatively the same across all regions, what is going to stop koreans from physically moving to NA or EU? like MC, MMA, stardust, polt etc? They physical move to these regions and still continue to dominate. When more koreans do the same, which will inevitably happen, are people going to call for a Citizenship requirement? You could do that, but I don't think it is a problem. Sure some will move, but I don't see it happening on large scale. A Polt is in the US for example for a different reason. Being able to easily play WCS AM is of course a nice bonus for him, but thats not the main reason he is there. And I think it is then not unreasonable to let him play there. Also look at a WCS EU. Even for the better Koreans the online rounds aren't exactly a walkover, as a forgg can testify. So if they wouldn't have issues with completely moving to Europe (and they actually get a visa for it), then why don't they even play their challenger league/RO32 from Europe? But instead play from Korea, and get kicked out. Maybe with less latency they could have made it.
yeah i think if a person uproots their life to move to another country they deserve to be able to compete in local tournaments. let's not undersell the significance of choosing to live in another part of the world, especially at the age of most progamers
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On October 16 2013 04:54 for_the_swarm wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 04:34 Sissors wrote:On October 16 2013 04:24 for_the_swarm wrote:On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote:
We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities! 1) MUCH MORE prize money in Korea 2) MORE tournaments in Korea 3) MORE WCS Points in Korea this should entice the koreans the compete in Korea instead of coming to NA an EU for easy money and WCS points. Then we dont need a region lock. And for the foreigners good enough to compete with the koreans, they can go to korea to try to pick up additional WCS points and additional prize money. EZ PZ problem solved. Just do a region lock depending on where people live: So a Polt may happily continue playing in WCS AM. If forGG has a visa he may happily continue playing in WCS EU. But not living in KR and playing in EU/AM. Other regions (Africa, China, etc) may choose wherever they want to play. dont think that will work. If the prize pool stays relatively the same across all regions, what is going to stop koreans from physically moving to NA or EU? like MC, MMA, stardust, polt etc? They physical move to these regions and still continue to dominate. When more koreans do the same, which will inevitably happen, are people going to call for a Citizenship requirement?
It seems like one of the things that is agreed upon is the idea of a "soft" region lock. Remember when the the seeds for Season 1 of NA WCS were announced, there wasn't any outrage over Polt being seeded while there was outrage over the exclusion of DeMusliM. If the half of the Kespa teams want to pack up and move to NA and practice on the NA server, then I'd predict that most of the community would be ok with that because they would then be part of the NA scene, and America has a really great tradition of being accepting of immigrants.
The problem that region locking is supposed to solve is the phenomena of Koreans playing challenger league qualifiers, challenger league, and premiere league RO32 online from Korea and just flying in for a week and a half to play out the remainder of premiere league. When that happens, they are still functionally part of the Korean scene, not the NA/EU scene. That doesn't help the NA scene by improving the level of play because the only time NA players will hit their Korean opponents is in the tournament itself. Right now it's possible to be consistently #1 on the NA ladder and be at a huge still disadvantage in the NA premiere league because you never hit your prospective opponents in practice-- this is one reason why the "just practice harder" meme is completely wrong.
What everyone wants is a realistic way for for an up-and-coming NA player to be able to mature as a player. Right now that is pretty impossible because the events specifically designed for up-and-coming NA players (challenger league qualifiers and challenger league) are being dominated by Koreans living and playing from Korea.
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wcs plans to figure out the best sc2 player on the planet and then proceeds to talk about region lock?
does that make sense to any of you?
a semi region lock is suppose to help local champions raise, but why would wcs care if that local champion is not the best on the planet?
just these thoughts are bugging me for a very long time
and finally kim has answered by stating clearly what wcs goals are
creating viewship being first on the list
i would just simply stand by my previous posts...
i watch the games i play, and if blizzard make sc2 the game i play then i watch...
i certainly hopes this makes sense for you
the way to accomplish the remaining 3 goals
watch golf and understand fedex cup is all about
there is already a "solo" "sport" with comparable "ranking system"
we could actually rank players globally be exactly how much prize money each player makes...
real enough for you?
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On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote:
We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities!
You would think the top priority is ultimately growth in viewership therefore the player-base LotV would come into...
WCS should be focused on what they are meant to do rather than worry about the masses of opinions that a niche of their revenue base has.
If the player-base and viewership increases there will be more WCS prize pool, BlizzCon prize pool, travel to tournaments, league/player housing, new regions, amateur and grassroots level play, regional tournaments/leagues.
It is more about what Blizzard can do through WCS to generate interest in Sc2.
Even if that means a temporary decrease in WCS activities I hope Blizzard will invest the money into the BEST course of action to increase the player base and viewership of Sc2 eSport related events.
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The priority has to be to increase viewership. Bigger viewership means more money from advertisement, more interest from sponsors, and therefore more and better teams and players, and so on.
The best way to increase viewership for an esport is to get more people to play the game. And as demonstrated by LoL and Dota2, the best way to get more people to play your game is to make it free to play. Making the multiplayer part of SC2 free to play is the only way to make SC2 competitive with LoL. It won't actually beat LoL without other changes, but at least if SC2 is F2P the viewer numbers will be on a similar order of magnitude.
Other things might help: Making 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 more balanced and more fun, making chatrooms in bnet 2.0 more apparent and more appealing, integrating automated tournaments into SC2 (like in WC3), making gameplay more varied (even if it means hurting balance a bit), and so on.
Of course, none of this has to do with WCS as such. I guess WCS could be improved, but it doesn't really matter when the viewership is so low.
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It's time we stop treating regions the same, pretending that AM=EU=KR. Fact of the matter is, you guys FORCED koreans to go to different leagues when you made the prize and point pool to be the same. Of course players will jump ship to go to the easier leagues. Duh! Let's use the football example again to explain how this could easily be fixed without even touching region lock (although I do support region lock to a certain extent).
Split the prize pool something like
Korea: 50%
Europe: 30%
America: 20%
To simplify with an example, blizzard spent $450,000 on each season premier+finals last year with the timeline for 4, so the new revised timeline with 3 for the whole year, that's about $600,000 per season. Let's split the money around:
Korea: $300,000
Europe: $175,000
America: $125,00
Play around with the numbers here and there using excel, you can get a pretty good prize pool split for those percentages. Here's what less than 10 minutes in excel came up with. Please note that this is obviously not the "ideal" split or whatever, it's just used for a general idea of what a bigger prize pool split across more players differently per region would look like. I split 3rd and 4th, as not only does that create an extra fun match, but also I've always hated the idea of not having a 3rd/4th placement match/different in price pool...
Korea Europe America Total Payout
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1st $ 50,000.00 $ 30,000.00 $ 25,000.00 $105,000.00
2nd $ 35,000.00 $ 20,000.00 $ 18,000.00 $ 73,000.00
3rd $ 25,000.00 $ 15,000.00 $ 12,000.00 $ 52,000.00
4th $ 18,000.00 $ 10,000.00 $ 8,000.00 $ 36,000.00
5th-8th $ 10,000.00 $ 6,000.00 $ 4,500.00 $ 82,000.00
9th-16th $ 7,000.00 $ 4,500.00 $ 2,500.00 $112,000.00
17th-32nd $ 4,500.00 $ 2,500.00 $ 1,500.00 $136,000.00
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
$296,000.00 $175,000.00 $125,000.00 $596,000.00
note: I've been messing with the numbers outside of excel so they may not add up perfectly, but you get the picture lol
You tell me this wouldn't automatically force some koreans to want to stay in korea? Sure, the other leagues are "easier", but the prize pool is smaller, so the benefits aren't ALL there. A top korean would look at this split and say "well I could go to america and win ez money, but damn, that's a 30K difference in first place...". It would automatically fix most of the region lock problems for top koreans. I guarantee at least the likes of Taeja, Jaedong, Mvp, etc would go play in korea, while other great koreans in foreign teams (ForGG, Revival, duckdeok, Heart, etc) that might not break premier in KR would stick around in foreign lands, still increasing the overall skill of AM/EU, but not dominating it.
On the flipside, if the minigun's of america and grubby's of europe complain "why does my 9th spot only get me 2500 when 9th in korea is 6500", then I simply say "well go to korea and earn 9th then". I'm fine with not letting koreans flood the foreign events, but don't expect to keep the best players out AND make just as much money. That's not "fair" or "good for the scene", that's just plain UNFAIR. From my example, the NA prize pool pretty much stays the same (It's actually better tbh), while the extra money from not having seasonal finals gets funneled partially into europe and mostly into korea. All fair imo.
To further this "league difference", why don't we make points seeding to blizzcon be competed with within each league? For example, instead of just awarding the same amount of points to every league and say "whoever has the most comes to blizzcon", why don't we implement a "Champion's League" style of seeding, where each region has a number of allowed seeds. Simplest would of course be
Korea: 8 seeds
Europe: 4 seeds
America: 4 seeds
This idea I'm not as sure with, so it could be tweeked of course, along with playing with the region locking. I feel this might segregate the regions a bit too much, although even in joint events (DH, IEM, etc), there would still be incentive for all players from different regions to fight each other for points, just not as direct. Leave blizzcon as is, we like seeing pimps from all over fight each other. Would love to hear some opinions on this, especially counter points, as to this day I still havn't come to terms with the fact that Korea got shafted so hard on $$$ and points.
Other than that, just more tournaments really. The foreign scene I feel is pretty good with Dreamhack, IEM, MLG, HSC, ASUS, etc etc, but we definitely need more korean tournaments. Going from liek 5-6 GSLs + OSL per year to only 3 tournaments is going to kill the scene, no matter how big the prize pool is.
tl;dr: Funnel the extra money from no more seasonal finals partially into europe and mostly into korea, and have more korean events outside of WCS. Would love to hear a response to this from kimaphan.
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We need a single control site to be able to watch the tournament in a progressive fashion. Shouldn't have to scroll through 10 websites to find the games.
Look at the Koreans in the SPL, you can watch every game, easily organized into the date it was played with updated brackets for each week so you can follow what's going on.
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The Korean scene cannot sustain the current amount of pro players on its own. Why should it be subsidized from the regions outside of Korea? Yes, Korea have the best (and most!) players. But favoring them by funneling money from outside and to Korea simply serves to keep the status quo. Korean domination in SC2 is a not healthy for the scene. It's severely damaging viewer interest in the tournaments outside of Korea. But the only way to change the Korean supremacy in terms of skill is to let there be fewer Korean pro's (or a lot more pro's outside of Korea). And the only feasible way to get to that point is to have the Korean scene suffer the consequences of its lack of popularity in its home country (which is already happening, to a degree).
The SC2 scene outside of Korea cannot compete with a Korean SC2 scene attuned to the heyday of Starcraft as a national sport. But SC2 in Korea is much less popular. And trying to ensure that the amount of players and level of commitment stay the same as in BW is self-defeating to the SC2 scene as a whole.
2012 was saved by Stephano managing to go deep and compete with top Koreans on a regular basis. Since then the Kespa infusion has resulted in higher general skill level in Korea. What will save 2014, when it's Korean only top 8s?
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seasonal finals should be replaced with something else, while the spectatle weekends have been really great, - they kind of have lowered the prestige of regional tournaments more compared to what they were worth on their own.
what that something is, should not overshadow regional accomplishments, but still provide frequent insight into how well different scenes and regions are doing
perhaps several ( 3-4) international small-scale showdowns, where you dont fight for yourself, but for your region... the successful players will be compensated with a small prize pool and some wcs points - but representing your region succesfully would bring benefits for your region ( maybe additional prize pool to the regional league or perhaps extra slots for the grand final of the year ) - so the storyline of those smaller international showdowns would really be about regions not players.
I know KR would probably dominate those events, but if the tournament is small enough ( maybe 9-12 players ) - and the regional lock will allow participation with resident (not citizenship) status, there is always that small chance of besting the dominant region for a season - and EU/AM rivarly for the 2nd spot benefits would probably incite some emotions too.
Also, i think maybe there should be more than one time a year where the crowning of best player in the world takes place, so in addition to blizzcon grand gigantic finals, perhaps there should be also second big international "summer champion" event.
edit:
that small scale showdown could be even be done in team format as a bo3
each regional team plays each other once in allkill, once in proleague format and if that ties up - a bo3/bo5 ace match
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Something I haven't seen, and was thinking about last night - it might be a good idea to rework the points system, both for WCS and for the "Tier" tournaments to an extent that makes the point spread closer in order to build some more tension, and also to add more point opportunities for players in tournaments.
As an example, something that doesn't mean winning 1 tournament gives the same point amount as getting 3rd in three or four other tournaments. Close up the gaps, so that winning still gives you a good boost, but so that players that only win one or two tournaments gain enough points to comfortably top the point leaderboard for the next season or year.
Also add points at a lower level for just being in a tournament - very low amounts for everyone up to about the top 64/32 (would have to figure out where the break point is) and then increase from there. Include lower general numbers for lower tier tournaments, and include WCS points for more tournaments (up to and including daily cups) so that there is more motivation for people to play more tournaments. For an end of year, include two prize pools - those who top the point leader board, and also the current style prize pool for the end of year "World Series" at Blizzcon.
Part of the problem with WCS is that tournaments that don't award points have less incentive unless they have a large prize pool for players to attend. (There's also fewer tournaments going on, but that's not something Blizzard alone can solve - they need other organizations to put them on. They can incentivize, and offer support, but unless they take over all tournaments it's not something they alone can fix.)
My priority for Blizzard in 2014 would be to support more grass roots and Pro-Am tournaments at a local level (specifically in AM, EU, and SEA) while also trying to make connections with the Chinese community of players, fans, and organizers. For an idea of what I'm thinking of, go back and listen to MLG Sundance's opening speech at MLG Orlando 2011. (But, unlike Sundance, actually follow through and have a plan of action. Sundance had an interesting vision of eSports working similar to Little League and Youth Soccer, but that's all I can see he's ever done with it. Sorry Sundance/MLG, but I just don't see the support coming from you on this.) Get more involved with people that you might not be too aware of and that aren't as well known - the TESPAs, NESLs, the guys running the LA tournament at the car dealership, the Irish tournament guys. Offer partnership opportunities to encourage people to step up and get involved in having more lower level tournaments. If people have more opportunities to compete, even locally, you get more people interested in getting better and putting the effort in to improve. (And players are somewhat to blame for the lack of skill uniformity - if you want to be the best, you have to put in the time and effort to do so. There needs to be a support system, coaches, and a plan. Just laddering all day everyday will help some people, but by no means will it be as useful.) Again, look at how major sports function - there is a pathway and support for people to start playing at a low level (community leagues, little leagues, etc) and then move on while continuing to improve or deciding to do something else through high school, college, and into the pros. In eSports, it's pretty much just - I'm good, but not good enough, or I'm on a Professional team. There is no clear path to go from casual player to amateur player to Pro.
You play, you have to beat professionals in major tournaments, and then you are a professional. There's little space for "competitive amateurs".
TL; dr - Of course, I could be wrong, but that's just my opinion. It seems like there's a lack of "career paths" for professionals (outside of Korea, definitely), a lack of supporting structure like coachs and planned practice regimes (again, outside of Korea), and the point system seems to heavily reward only the top top players, as opposed to consistent performers making gradual improvements. It's "Go big or go home", and it may be disheartening to people on the bubble who are trying to decide if it's worth all the effort and time. (Also an argument for soft region locks.) Oh, and teams also need to be looking at the structure and farm system if they can. That could help - having a focus on ROI for image or sponsors doesn't help players get better - you have to put the time into improvements. EGTL getting Coach Park was wonderful for those that were under him. Players should WANT that kind of focus on helping players get better.
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On October 16 2013 05:10 SeakayKu wrote:
wcs plans to figure out the best sc2 player on the planet and then proceeds to talk about region lock?
does that make sense to any of you?
a semi region lock is suppose to help local champions raise, but why would wcs care if that local champion is not the best on the planet?
just these thoughts are bugging me for a very long time
and finally kim has answered by stating clearly what wcs goals are
creating viewship being first on the list
i would just simply stand by my previous posts...
i watch the games i play, and if blizzard make sc2 the game i play then i watch...
i certainly hopes this makes sense for you
the way to accomplish the remaining 3 goals
watch golf and understand fedex cup is all about
there is already a "solo" "sport" with comparable "ranking system"
we could actually rank players globally be exactly how much prize money each player makes...
real enough for you?
I've seen several of these comments over the last few pages. That's not what Kim said at all, lol. That's what we call indirect growth. Any increases in viewership will be marginal at best no matter what changes you make to the format. I'd make the system even leaner because there's still quite a bit going on. 3 Seasons with 3 qualifiers for Challenger/Survivor, Premiere League and the Grand Final not necessarily happening at the same time is still a lot. I'd also think about re-branding the actual Tournament. There's already a lot of negativity associated directly with the WCS as you can see people are quick to jump on it without reading the actual thread. A good way to break the negative connotation is too properly brand it.
As for the guy right above me. Are you kidding? There are all sorts of jobs in the market at the moment. I can come up with several new positions that we could use in this market. It doesn't matter if your a pro gamer or not. We need several technicians, people to enforce policy, people to come up with policy, engineers (there are several ways we can make the booths better and give players options- like LED lights changing to the color they pick instead of using red and blue all the time), etc. There are many positions out there for work as long as you can make yourself useful.
On October 16 2013 05:56 rename wrote:
seasonal finals should be replaced with something else, while the spectatle weekends have been really great, - they kind of have lowered the prestige of regional tournaments more compared to what they were worth on their own.
what that something is, should not overshadow regional accomplishments, but still provide frequent insight into how well different scenes and regions are doing
perhaps several ( 3-4) international small-scale showdowns, where you dont fight for yourself, but for your region... the successful players will be compensated with a small prize pool and some wcs points - but representing your region succesfully would bring benefits for your region ( maybe additional prize pool to the regional league or perhaps extra slots for the grand final of the year ) - so the storyline of those smaller international showdowns would really be about regions not players.
I know KR would probably dominate those events, but if the tournament is small enough ( maybe 9-12 players ) - and the regional lock will allow participation with resident (not citizenship) status, there is always that small chance of besting the dominant region for a season - and EU/AM rivarly for the 2nd spot benefits would probably incite some emotions too.
Also, i think maybe there should be more than one time a year where the crowning of best player in the world takes place, so in addition to blizzcon grand gigantic finals, perhaps there should be also second big international "summer champion" event.
edit:
that small scale showdown could be even be done in team format as a bo3
each regional team plays each other once in allkill, once in proleague format and if that ties up - a bo3/bo5 ace match
They already said they were getting rid of seasonal finals. People please read.
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On October 16 2013 05:15 TaishiCi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote:
We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities! You would think the top priority is ultimately growth in viewership therefore the player-base LotV would come into... WCS should be focused on what they are meant to do rather than worry about the masses of opinions that a niche of their revenue base has. If the player-base and viewership increases there will be more WCS prize pool, BlizzCon prize pool, travel to tournaments, league/player housing, new regions, amateur and grassroots level play, regional tournaments/leagues. It is more about what Blizzard can do through WCS to generate interest in Sc2. Even if that means a temporary decrease in WCS activities I hope Blizzard will invest the money into the BEST course of action to increase the player base and viewership of Sc2 eSport related events.
I was surprised "Increased Viewership" wasn't listed because as you've mentioned when the viewership increases so do prize pools and sponsorships teams receive to send their players out to tournaments. Ideally a growing prize pool and expansion of regions would be a sign of a healthy organization, things like in client WCS support, tournament passes that grant access to special skins, fantasy teams, etc. all seem to be missing from blizzards peripheral.
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On October 16 2013 06:25 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 05:56 rename wrote:
seasonal finals should be replaced with something else, while the spectatle weekends have been really great, - they kind of have lowered the prestige of regional tournaments more compared to what they were worth on their own.
what that something is, should not overshadow regional accomplishments, but still provide frequent insight into how well different scenes and regions are doing
perhaps several ( 3-4) international small-scale showdowns, where you dont fight for yourself, but for your region... the successful players will be compensated with a small prize pool and some wcs points - but representing your region succesfully would bring benefits for your region ( maybe additional prize pool to the regional league or perhaps extra slots for the grand final of the year ) - so the storyline of those smaller international showdowns would really be about regions not players.
I know KR would probably dominate those events, but if the tournament is small enough ( maybe 9-12 players ) - and the regional lock will allow participation with resident (not citizenship) status, there is always that small chance of besting the dominant region for a season - and EU/AM rivarly for the 2nd spot benefits would probably incite some emotions too.
Also, i think maybe there should be more than one time a year where the crowning of best player in the world takes place, so in addition to blizzcon grand gigantic finals, perhaps there should be also second big international "summer champion" event.
edit:
that small scale showdown could be even be done in team format as a bo3
each regional team plays each other once in allkill, once in proleague format and if that ties up - a bo3/bo5 ace match
They already said they were getting rid of seasonal finals. People please read.
"We have decided that the season finals will not be continuing in their current form and we’re looking to change how they work in 2014."
That still bit implies some sort of seasonal finals. I just wanted to point on that while i think the frequent all-region meetups are a good idea, i'd prefer much-much different and less "final"-ish format. ( my pardons, if the complete removal has been confirmed later on in the thread )
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On October 16 2013 06:36 rename wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 06:25 StarStruck wrote:On October 16 2013 05:56 rename wrote:
seasonal finals should be replaced with something else, while the spectatle weekends have been really great, - they kind of have lowered the prestige of regional tournaments more compared to what they were worth on their own.
what that something is, should not overshadow regional accomplishments, but still provide frequent insight into how well different scenes and regions are doing
perhaps several ( 3-4) international small-scale showdowns, where you dont fight for yourself, but for your region... the successful players will be compensated with a small prize pool and some wcs points - but representing your region succesfully would bring benefits for your region ( maybe additional prize pool to the regional league or perhaps extra slots for the grand final of the year ) - so the storyline of those smaller international showdowns would really be about regions not players.
I know KR would probably dominate those events, but if the tournament is small enough ( maybe 9-12 players ) - and the regional lock will allow participation with resident (not citizenship) status, there is always that small chance of besting the dominant region for a season - and EU/AM rivarly for the 2nd spot benefits would probably incite some emotions too.
Also, i think maybe there should be more than one time a year where the crowning of best player in the world takes place, so in addition to blizzcon grand gigantic finals, perhaps there should be also second big international "summer champion" event.
edit:
that small scale showdown could be even be done in team format as a bo3
each regional team plays each other once in allkill, once in proleague format and if that ties up - a bo3/bo5 ace match
They already said they were getting rid of seasonal finals. People please read. "We have decided that the season finals will not be continuing in their current form and we’re looking to change how they work in 2014." That still bit implies some sort of seasonal finals. I just wanted to point on that while i think the frequent all-region meetups are a good idea, i'd prefer much-much different and less "final"-ish format. ( my pardons, if the complete removal has been confirmed later on in the thread )
Did you read Victor's post? It's under his first bullet on page 4. That was also taken directing from Q and A btw.
Also, there's one person I forgot to address way back.
On October 15 2013 15:29 Yakikorosu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2013 15:22 StarStruck wrote:
Yakikorosu,
To me it felt very discombobulated. I'm looking at the pieces of the whole and at the end of the day a lot of it just doesn't make sense when it came to the formatting, branding and the seasons. Finals of finals? You get what I mean. I can see why they would take those out, lol. We need better continuity. I don't like looking at sections. If I had it my way I would have the same players throughout a year. These are your Pro's who will compete for the Cup. More games between the pros more regularly. More kicks at the can. Accredited teams earning slots for their players. All that good stuff. Let them build more stats against one another. Let them build stories together.
I wasn't a huge fan of the Season Finals either, and I agree that there's too much Challenger League, but you can't just select one group of players and say that for the whole year NO ONE ELSE gets to compete in major tournaments. That would completely kill the scene, players would just quit if they fail to make it in rather than wait a whole year to try again. My preference would be: Kill Challenger League (except in KR) and replace it with open qualifiers (tying to ladder in some manner is a good idea), but retain the top 16 players each season, not just top 8. Kill Season Finals (except Grand Final at Blizzcon). Use the extra time to have more WCS Premiere League seasons--5 or 6 per year. Obviously that's not happening, so I'll just sit and hope something cool develops for 2014. And I also want to thank Kim for being so open and participating on the forums. Please don't let the obligatory flamers and doomsayers get you down.
No it wouldn't because I never told you how many players would be apart of the circuit now did I? It's way beyond the amount of players that would qualify for challenger and the freeze isn't much of a freeze when accredited teams get to give a few of their players pro badges. I figured a lot of things out to keep everyone happy and to make sure teams get the proper exposure. We're not talking about giving players their 15 seconds of fame or in other words two or three kicks at the can either and there is still plenty of opportunity for players to go pro as throughout the year.
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On October 16 2013 06:25 StarStruck wrote:
I've seen several of these comments over the last few pages. That's not what Kim said at all, lol. That's what we call indirect growth. Any increases in viewership will be marginal at best no matter what changes you make to the format. I'd make the system even leaner because there's still quite a bit going on. 3 Seasons with 3 qualifiers for Challenger/Survivor, Premiere League and the Grand Final not necessarily happening at the same time is still a lot. I'd also think about re-branding the actual Tournament. There's already a lot of negativity associated directly with the WCS as you can see people are quick to jump on it without reading the actual thread. A good way to break the negative connotation is too properly brand it.
i just cannot break away from thinking anything else can be as relavant as viewship
but if i understood you correctly, you mean what kim want is to setup wcs so the viewership within kim's control is maximized under the current setup of the game?
well, in that regards...
adjusting format to increase viewship feels so marginal like you said...
then i recommend to invest in finding good casters or even spend time training casters
i am, embarrassingly, very much an appearance sucker
yes i judge a book by its cover (got a problem? lol)
something needs to look good, sound good, and feels smooth just makes audience feel positive
consistancy in delivering good presentation (no matter big/small of event) is, obvious to me, the most important part to look at
hence, casters
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On October 16 2013 06:27 Stringy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2013 05:15 TaishiCi wrote:On October 15 2013 18:13 kimaphan wrote:
We'd love to get your input on where else we should refocus resources in 2014. We can't address everything at once, but what do you think are the top priorities? Growing the overall WCS prize pool? Growing the BlizzCon prize pool? Support player travel to tournament events? League/player housing? Expanding to new regions? Supporting amateur and grassroots level play? Regional tournaments/leagues?
These are just some ideas on where we could focus our resources and are not listed in any particular order. Let us know what you think should be the top priorities! You would think the top priority is ultimately growth in viewership therefore the player-base LotV would come into... WCS should be focused on what they are meant to do rather than worry about the masses of opinions that a niche of their revenue base has. If the player-base and viewership increases there will be more WCS prize pool, BlizzCon prize pool, travel to tournaments, league/player housing, new regions, amateur and grassroots level play, regional tournaments/leagues. It is more about what Blizzard can do through WCS to generate interest in Sc2. Even if that means a temporary decrease in WCS activities I hope Blizzard will invest the money into the BEST course of action to increase the player base and viewership of Sc2 eSport related events. I was surprised "Increased Viewership" wasn't listed because as you've mentioned when the viewership increases so do prize pools and sponsorships teams receive to send their players out to tournaments. Ideally a growing prize pool and expansion of regions would be a sign of a healthy organization, things like in client WCS support, tournament passes that grant access to special skins, fantasy teams, etc. all seem to be missing from blizzards peripheral.
It feels like they don't really understand how they fit into the eSports economy.
From the beginning of WCS I felt that this was an overstep from Blizzard to compete with Riot as an emergency.
They should have settled for a Premiere league in EU and NA with some form of support/points for GSL/OSL.
The Finals wouldn't have such a small prize pool compared to Dota 2 and LoL.
Hope that they can expand into Challenger League and/or Team League next year.
Instead they overstepped and made a big sloppy mess that they can't keep funding.
Trying to feed everyone, so everyone starved.
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I don't love making suggestions but here goes.
WCS KR should be removed. There's no LCS KR because Riot doesn't assume they can do Korean esports better than Koreans.
WCS NA and EU should continue as they are, but only be open to players not living in Korea. Players can choose to compete in one or the other and can't switch mid-year.
Season finals should be removed so that IEM, Dreamhack, Red Bull, etc. weekend LANs get more hype.
Blizzcon should be the top 4 players from OSL/GSL points, top 4 from weekend LAN points, (tier 1/tier 2 tournaments right now) top 4 from WCS EU points, and top 4 from WCS NA points. This will still likely be mostly Koreans, but will probably have a few Korean vs foreigner matchups, which get the most viewers.
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I could imagine having some sort of restriction on citizenship, but still allowing a bit of mobility regardless.
However, for anyone playing outside of their designated region, I'd award them half the number of WCS points, or even less, for any of their accomplishments.
Players would then have to make a bet. Do I think I'm good enough to compete with my countrymen? If the answer is yes, then the return-on-investment in WCS points at least is bound to be higher if you stay in your region.
This should also lead to the only Koreans looking abroad being the ones with whom the US and EU players can more easily compete, thus solving the problem once and for all.
"But..."
"ONCE AND FOR ALL!"
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EPT
