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Blizzard Q&A on WCS 2014 - Page 29

Forum Index > SC2 General
646 CommentsPost a Reply
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I'm seeing a lot of comments from people who are disappointed that we did not share the exact plans for WCS 2014. To clarify, we did not intend for this to be an announcement, or an announcement of an announcement for that matter

The reality is that we are still finalizing the details of WCS 2014 with our partners, however, we did not want to wait until everything was finalized before letting you know some of the things we were discussing. We want to give the community an opportunity to provide feedback before we locked down the specific details. We have outlined most of our plans and ideas in some of our answers, but haven't fully committed to any of the decisions because we want to hear from the community. Our goal is to confirm and announce the plans for WCS 2014 before BlizzCon. That gives you at least a week to give us your input on what we've shared!

Thanks again for your support!

-kimaphan
lamprey1
Profile Joined June 2012
Canada919 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-16 19:16:19
October 16 2013 19:09 GMT
#561
On October 16 2013 02:11 orvinreyes wrote:
"we're looking to"

"we're planning to"

"we're still evaluating"

"we will put more thought into"

...just, ugh.


the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
bottom line is .. SC2 esports is a money losing operation and the real question is.. how much is Blizzard will to sink into the abyss in the name of "keeping the brand strong so that LotV sales are strong".

because this is really what its all about ... selling boxed copies of LotV.

people should also realize that "Blizzard's best people" are working on far more lucrative projects.
SC2 eSports essentially gets the "Blizzard B-team".

with Kotick more fully in charge of ATVI look for some cost cutting to go on...
its already happening at Blizzcon.. no band.. no comedian.. etc.

the days where the road of Blizzard's campus being paved with gold are over... WoW no longer has 12 million subs.
Noobity
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States871 Posts
October 16 2013 19:28 GMT
#562
On October 17 2013 04:09 lamprey1 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2013 02:11 orvinreyes wrote:
"we're looking to"

"we're planning to"

"we're still evaluating"

"we will put more thought into"

...just, ugh.


the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
bottom line is .. SC2 esports is a money losing operation and the real question is.. how much is Blizzard will to sink into the abyss in the name of "keeping the brand strong so that LotV sales are strong".

because this is really what its all about ... selling boxed copies of LotV.

people should also realize that "Blizzard's best people" are working on far more lucrative projects.
SC2 eSports essentially gets the "Blizzard B-team".

with Kotick more fully in charge of ATVI look for some cost cutting to go on...
its already happening at Blizzcon.. no band.. no comedian.. etc.

the days where the road of Blizzard's campus being paved with gold are over... WoW no longer has 12 million subs.


I don't necessarily think no band or comedian at blizzcon is necessarily cost cutting. I was always confused about why they had either of those in the first place. I don't personally think they're a draw, but of course I've never been so maybe they're more of a benefit than I'm aware.

As for sc2 esports being handled by blizzard's b-team, wasn't Kim hired specifically for this job? Something tells me creating a job and cost cutting are kind of opposites. Additionally, I assure you that "blizzard's best" esports people are working on sc2, and frankly I wouldn't want blizzard's best 3d modelers to be working on this particular issue at all. Most industries don't work in terms of tiers, you don't just have a generic "A-team" that handles all of the "Important" shit.

I agree that this is most likely meant to increase sales, that's what any business is meant to do and to think anything but positively about a company that is beginning to cater to the fans and generate sales in a way that we want is kind of insulting to them. There are plenty of other ways to generate interest, they're doing something that benefits us, not just makes us recognize the brand.
My name is Mike, and statistically, yours is not.
lamprey1
Profile Joined June 2012
Canada919 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-16 19:34:40
October 16 2013 19:32 GMT
#563
On October 17 2013 04:28 Noobity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 17 2013 04:09 lamprey1 wrote:
On October 16 2013 02:11 orvinreyes wrote:
"we're looking to"

"we're planning to"

"we're still evaluating"

"we will put more thought into"

...just, ugh.


the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
bottom line is .. SC2 esports is a money losing operation and the real question is.. how much is Blizzard will to sink into the abyss in the name of "keeping the brand strong so that LotV sales are strong".

because this is really what its all about ... selling boxed copies of LotV.

people should also realize that "Blizzard's best people" are working on far more lucrative projects.
SC2 eSports essentially gets the "Blizzard B-team".

with Kotick more fully in charge of ATVI look for some cost cutting to go on...
its already happening at Blizzcon.. no band.. no comedian.. etc.

the days where the road of Blizzard's campus being paved with gold are over... WoW no longer has 12 million subs.


I don't necessarily think no band or comedian at blizzcon is necessarily cost cutting. I was always confused about why they had either of those in the first place. I don't personally think they're a draw, but of course I've never been so maybe they're more of a benefit than I'm aware.

As for sc2 esports being handled by blizzard's b-team, wasn't Kim hired specifically for this job? Something tells me creating a job and cost cutting are kind of opposites. Additionally, I assure you that "blizzard's best" esports people are working on sc2, and frankly I wouldn't want blizzard's best 3d modelers to be working on this particular issue at all. Most industries don't work in terms of tiers, you don't just have a generic "A-team" that handles all of the "Important" shit.

I agree that this is most likely meant to increase sales, that's what any business is meant to do and to think anything but positively about a company that is beginning to cater to the fans and generate sales in a way that we want is kind of insulting to them. There are plenty of other ways to generate interest, they're doing something that benefits us, not just makes us recognize the brand.


the myriad of very simple, fundamental problems with WCS 2013 is a solid indicator that Blizzard's best people are focused on issues other than WCS 2013.

Blizzard's best people ain't that dumb.

of course, in Blizzard's messaging they always claim "WCS 2014 is very important". they can't say otherwise.
Pirfiktshon
Profile Joined June 2013
United States1072 Posts
October 16 2013 19:33 GMT
#564
I don't think anyone wants blizzard NOT to make money. Me as the consumer am more than happy to help a company prosper and get my support of money if they make a good product and support it....
lamprey1
Profile Joined June 2012
Canada919 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-16 19:36:24
October 16 2013 19:35 GMT
#565
to clarify,
i'm ecstatic with Blizzard's level of support for SC2.

No other RTS game gets 1/1000 this level of support.
its just that in reading the thread u get the feeling some people really believed Blizzard when they said "by numbers SC is bigger than the NHL".

WCS 2014 won't be anything near as good as the NHL.
m0ck
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
4194 Posts
October 16 2013 19:40 GMT
#566
The what?
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
October 16 2013 19:40 GMT
#567
On October 17 2013 04:28 Noobity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 17 2013 04:09 lamprey1 wrote:
On October 16 2013 02:11 orvinreyes wrote:
"we're looking to"

"we're planning to"

"we're still evaluating"

"we will put more thought into"

...just, ugh.


the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
bottom line is .. SC2 esports is a money losing operation and the real question is.. how much is Blizzard will to sink into the abyss in the name of "keeping the brand strong so that LotV sales are strong".

because this is really what its all about ... selling boxed copies of LotV.

people should also realize that "Blizzard's best people" are working on far more lucrative projects.
SC2 eSports essentially gets the "Blizzard B-team".

with Kotick more fully in charge of ATVI look for some cost cutting to go on...
its already happening at Blizzcon.. no band.. no comedian.. etc.

the days where the road of Blizzard's campus being paved with gold are over... WoW no longer has 12 million subs.

[n]As for sc2 esports being handled by blizzard's b-team, wasn't Kim hired specifically for this job? Something tells me creating a job and cost cutting are kind of opposites. Additionally, I assure you that "blizzard's best" esports people are working on sc2, and frankly I wouldn't want blizzard's best 3d modelers to be working on this particular issue at all. Most industries don't work in terms of tiers, you don't just have a generic "A-team" that handles all of the "Important" shit.[/n]

I recall that for the longest time Blizzard kept siphoning off experienced WoW developers towards Titan. It seems obvious to me that once you go from creating to maintaining a product you scale down your ambitions and you move the important people to other projects. By all accounts Starcraft 2 multiplayer is not a priority for Blizzard, it adequately explains how since 2010 we have gotten minor improvements to battle.net, a few new units and a balance change every few months.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Prog455
Profile Joined April 2012
Denmark970 Posts
October 16 2013 19:48 GMT
#568
On October 16 2013 05:28 ffadicted wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
It's time we stop treating regions the same, pretending that AM=EU=KR. Fact of the matter is, you guys FORCED koreans to go to different leagues when you made the prize and point pool to be the same. Of course players will jump ship to go to the easier leagues. Duh! Let's use the football example again to explain how this could easily be fixed without even touching region lock (although I do support region lock to a certain extent).

Split the prize pool something like

Korea: 50%
Europe: 30%
America: 20%

To simplify with an example, blizzard spent $450,000 on each season premier+finals last year with the timeline for 4, so the new revised timeline with 3 for the whole year, that's about $600,000 per season. Let's split the money around:

Korea: $300,000
Europe: $175,000
America: $125,00

Play around with the numbers here and there using excel, you can get a pretty good prize pool split for those percentages. Here's what less than 10 minutes in excel came up with. Please note that this is obviously not the "ideal" split or whatever, it's just used for a general idea of what a bigger prize pool split across more players differently per region would look like. I split 3rd and 4th, as not only does that create an extra fun match, but also I've always hated the idea of not having a 3rd/4th placement match/different in price pool...


Korea Europe America Total Payout
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1st $ 50,000.00 $ 30,000.00 $ 25,000.00 $105,000.00
2nd $ 35,000.00 $ 20,000.00 $ 18,000.00 $ 73,000.00
3rd $ 25,000.00 $ 15,000.00 $ 12,000.00 $ 52,000.00
4th $ 18,000.00 $ 10,000.00 $ 8,000.00 $ 36,000.00
5th-8th $ 10,000.00 $ 6,000.00 $ 4,500.00 $ 82,000.00
9th-16th $ 7,000.00 $ 4,500.00 $ 2,500.00 $112,000.00
17th-32nd $ 4,500.00 $ 2,500.00 $ 1,500.00 $136,000.00
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
$296,000.00 $175,000.00 $125,000.00 $596,000.00

note: I've been messing with the numbers outside of excel so they may not add up perfectly, but you get the picture lol


You tell me this wouldn't automatically force some koreans to want to stay in korea? Sure, the other leagues are "easier", but the prize pool is smaller, so the benefits aren't ALL there. A top korean would look at this split and say "well I could go to america and win ez money, but damn, that's a 30K difference in first place...". It would automatically fix most of the region lock problems for top koreans. I guarantee at least the likes of Taeja, Jaedong, Mvp, etc would go play in korea, while other great koreans in foreign teams (ForGG, Revival, duckdeok, Heart, etc) that might not break premier in KR would stick around in foreign lands, still increasing the overall skill of AM/EU, but not dominating it.

On the flipside, if the minigun's of america and grubby's of europe complain "why does my 9th spot only get me 2500 when 9th in korea is 6500", then I simply say "well go to korea and earn 9th then". I'm fine with not letting koreans flood the foreign events, but don't expect to keep the best players out AND make just as much money. That's not "fair" or "good for the scene", that's just plain UNFAIR. From my example, the NA prize pool pretty much stays the same (It's actually better tbh), while the extra money from not having seasonal finals gets funneled partially into europe and mostly into korea. All fair imo.

To further this "league difference", why don't we make points seeding to blizzcon be competed with within each league? For example, instead of just awarding the same amount of points to every league and say "whoever has the most comes to blizzcon", why don't we implement a "Champion's League" style of seeding, where each region has a number of allowed seeds. Simplest would of course be

Korea: 8 seeds
Europe: 4 seeds
America: 4 seeds

This idea I'm not as sure with, so it could be tweeked of course, along with playing with the region locking. I feel this might segregate the regions a bit too much, although even in joint events (DH, IEM, etc), there would still be incentive for all players from different regions to fight each other for points, just not as direct. Leave blizzcon as is, we like seeing pimps from all over fight each other. Would love to hear some opinions on this, especially counter points, as to this day I still havn't come to terms with the fact that Korea got shafted so hard on $$$ and points.

Other than that, just more tournaments really. The foreign scene I feel is pretty good with Dreamhack, IEM, MLG, HSC, ASUS, etc etc, but we definitely need more korean tournaments. Going from liek 5-6 GSLs + OSL per year to only 3 tournaments is going to kill the scene, no matter how big the prize pool is.

tl;dr: Funnel the extra money from no more seasonal finals partially into europe and mostly into korea, and have more korean events outside of WCS. Would love to hear a response to this from kimaphan.


I really like this post, and i think it would be a very good idea lower prize pools in EU and NA so that Koreans will stay in Korea, or maybe just transfer some cash from NA to Korea since it would appear that NA has a harder time than EU. I also really like the idea of SC2 multiplayer being F2P, even though we would have to accept that the overall douche level would go up aswell.

The biggest problem for SC2 right now, i believe, is that Blizzard is afraid of making big changes. This became pretty obvious with HotS that barely made a difference to most of the match-ups. I understand that you have to be careful to make big changes to a game that people make a living off, but on the flip side it would appear that Riot has been doing this with great succes.
lamprey1
Profile Joined June 2012
Canada919 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-16 19:58:29
October 16 2013 19:54 GMT
#569
On October 17 2013 04:40 Grumbels wrote:
I recall that for the longest time Blizzard kept siphoning off experienced WoW developers towards Titan. It seems obvious to me that once you go from creating to maintaining a product you scale down your ambitions and you move the important people to other projects. By all accounts Starcraft 2 multiplayer is not a priority for Blizzard,

and map hackers run amok.

back on topic.. i think WCS 2014 will end up being about as good as WCS 2013..
with a string of successes and failures as was the case with WCS 2013..

over all prize money will go down in 2014 (including WCS and all other events combined)... so it doesnt much matter to pros how much they shuffle stuff around.
Sufinsil
Profile Joined January 2011
United States760 Posts
October 16 2013 20:11 GMT
#570
http://www.polygon.com/2013/10/16/4839342/riot-games-league-of-legends-esports-dustin-beck-interview

The IGN/IPL purchase had a great start and seemed to be going somewhere but then it became WCS Highlight channel. Season 1 had some great recaps and overviews that could get people interesting in catching the big games.

ESL and OGN/GOM have the production at a good quality, but WCS AM is a joke. The set is poor looking, the casters are uninteresting and talk like they are not even watching the game (Gretorp goes on about Jaedong going into Muta for 2 mins while the entire 2 minutes it was clear it was going 1/1 Roaches. Among many other examples.) And the production is not that great overall. No analysis desk/screen. So much dead space. The production values need to be on par across all 3 regions not just 2 of 3. MLG seemed to be taking good steps into post game replay and analysis and other improvements along with hosting their own qualifiers... then got forced into WCS and now are barely part of the scene. I am so scared how poor Season 3 finals production is going to be that it may turn people off from watching future SC2.

Please bring some of that effort into production that you showed in early 2013.

Pirfiktshon
Profile Joined June 2013
United States1072 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-16 20:25:47
October 16 2013 20:23 GMT
#571
@Sufinsil Bro you are right on the money with this one.... We all know WCS AM in general doesn't get a whole lot of attention but atleast make it look better and get some good casters. Heck I would be willing to host some which would be better than what we have now if they are willing to have it in Tampa FL

EDIT: (Hint Hint I'm cheap labor and I do a good job Pm if you want me
Mindflow
Profile Joined November 2010
Korea (South)320 Posts
October 16 2013 20:55 GMT
#572
Region lock or I'm bouncing out till 15'. Cy@
DRTnOOber
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
New Zealand476 Posts
October 16 2013 22:17 GMT
#573
I think it would be fair to have four regions: 2 Korean "regions" (one hosted by GSL, one hosted by OSL which run concurrently)... then America and Europe.

It might give a better incentive for Korean players to stay in Korea, plus it would give each of the organisations of GomTV and OngameNet more authority over their tournaments.
But I'm off creep... and so I slow down, what are hellions doing here? I don't belong here...
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
October 16 2013 22:59 GMT
#574
Somehow, I just remembered that somebody proposed special treatment for Korean players on "non-Korean" teams (I think it was in one of the two Korean articles based on rumors). I certainly hope that this will not be the case out of two reasons:
1) First you got to define what a "non-Korean team" is, which isn't that clear in my opinion. For example some people regards certain teams as non-Korean team, while I regard them as a team of solid, good Korean players with maybe some non-Koreans for decoration purposes.
2) Giving the teams so much leeway gives me the impression that blizzard is somehow relying on them to advance the scene. However, while each team definitely benefits from a good scene, they have their own success as top priority first and foremost (and who blames them?).
Qwyn
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States2779 Posts
October 16 2013 23:00 GMT
#575
Looks like we'll have to wait until Blizzcon to see the specifics! This is one of those things where Blizzard talks out to appease the ravenous hunger of the community, I guess ^^.
"Think of the hysteria following the realization that they consciously consume babies and raise the dead people from their graves" - N0
Treemonkeys
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2082 Posts
October 16 2013 23:05 GMT
#576
So...as I have decided to drop off my 2 cents here...

There has been nothing but negativity thrown at Blizzard since day 1 of the WoL release (and before I'm sure).

There is not enough enjoyment of what is. There is not enough realizing that it's not what "I" want, so I will deal with it or walk away.

There is far too much armchair executives constantly critiquing what Blizzard and tournament organizers are doing as not good enough.

I feel there is really no place for me, as someone who wants to enjoy the game, the strategy, the ladder, and the esports matches to go and be part of or read discussion that is enjoyable. This doesn't mean everyone should always agree or be positive, but the community is soiled with an overflow of negativity, and it's always been that way.

I love watching tournaments, I love watching Meta, I love playing ladder, but associating with the SC2 community outside of these specific things always seems to be a bitch fest - I am guilty of this in the past and I have moved on and still continue to enjoy the game. I just really wonder how I can come back here randomly and it's *still* always the same thing.

It will be nice when all of the naysayers finally move on and we are left with a community that enjoys SC2 for what it is rather than what they wish it was, I don't care how big or small the viewership is at that point.
http://shroomspiration.blogspot.com/
Noobity
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States871 Posts
October 16 2013 23:28 GMT
#577
On October 17 2013 04:40 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 17 2013 04:28 Noobity wrote:
On October 17 2013 04:09 lamprey1 wrote:
On October 16 2013 02:11 orvinreyes wrote:
"we're looking to"

"we're planning to"

"we're still evaluating"

"we will put more thought into"

...just, ugh.


the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
bottom line is .. SC2 esports is a money losing operation and the real question is.. how much is Blizzard will to sink into the abyss in the name of "keeping the brand strong so that LotV sales are strong".

because this is really what its all about ... selling boxed copies of LotV.

people should also realize that "Blizzard's best people" are working on far more lucrative projects.
SC2 eSports essentially gets the "Blizzard B-team".

with Kotick more fully in charge of ATVI look for some cost cutting to go on...
its already happening at Blizzcon.. no band.. no comedian.. etc.

the days where the road of Blizzard's campus being paved with gold are over... WoW no longer has 12 million subs.

[n]As for sc2 esports being handled by blizzard's b-team, wasn't Kim hired specifically for this job? Something tells me creating a job and cost cutting are kind of opposites. Additionally, I assure you that "blizzard's best" esports people are working on sc2, and frankly I wouldn't want blizzard's best 3d modelers to be working on this particular issue at all. Most industries don't work in terms of tiers, you don't just have a generic "A-team" that handles all of the "Important" shit.[/n]

I recall that for the longest time Blizzard kept siphoning off experienced WoW developers towards Titan. It seems obvious to me that once you go from creating to maintaining a product you scale down your ambitions and you move the important people to other projects. By all accounts Starcraft 2 multiplayer is not a priority for Blizzard, it adequately explains how since 2010 we have gotten minor improvements to battle.net, a few new units and a balance change every few months.


That doesn't mean they're your a team, that means they're better at creating content. Once the content's created, there's no reason to keep them there if you have something else they can be put on. For instance I'm considerably better at continuing work that someone else has created than I am at creating work itself. But my ability to continue someone else's work is a lot better than a person who would focus on creating content would be. Doesn't mean they're better than I am, just that they're more useful at a different point than I am, and I'm more useful at another point than they are.
My name is Mike, and statistically, yours is not.
ElMeanYo
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1032 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-17 05:46:49
October 17 2013 05:45 GMT
#578
On October 17 2013 08:05 Treemonkeys wrote:
I feel there is really no place for me, as someone who wants to enjoy the game, the strategy, the ladder, and the esports matches to go and be part of or read discussion that is enjoyable. This doesn't mean everyone should always agree or be positive, but the community is soiled with an overflow of negativity, and it's always been that way.


The minority who are unhappy come to bitch on the forums. The majority who are happy are silent (you are an exception). It makes the community seem overly negative.
“The only man who never makes mistakes is the man who never does anything.” ― Theodore Roosevelt
NovemberstOrm
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Canada16217 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-17 06:07:06
October 17 2013 05:50 GMT
#579
On October 17 2013 14:45 ElMeanYo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 17 2013 08:05 Treemonkeys wrote:
I feel there is really no place for me, as someone who wants to enjoy the game, the strategy, the ladder, and the esports matches to go and be part of or read discussion that is enjoyable. This doesn't mean everyone should always agree or be positive, but the community is soiled with an overflow of negativity, and it's always been that way.


The minority who are unhappy come to bitch on the forums. The majority who are happy are silent (you are an exception). It makes the community seem overly negative.

The TL SC2 community is just a small part of the overall sc2 community. I'm sure you know that though.
On October 16 2013 03:55 GrazerRinge wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 16 2013 02:11 orvinreyes wrote:
"we're looking to"

"we're planning to"

"we're still evaluating"

"we will put more thought into"

...just, ugh.

exact my feeling when i was reading through wall of text..

what is the meaning of Q & A session when it is so formal and has no real content at all (imo)

I want sc2 to be successful, no hating Blizzard at and I am very aware that this is much harder issue to deal with then Dota or LoL, but still everyone know that Blizzard can do better then this. I am getting feeling that Blizzard employees dont feel passionate about sc2 scene at all. David Kim? Dustin Browder? i am not sure...


If you actually read it and Kimphan's responses to questions you would understand they want the communities feedback on what they should do better, while they have given us what they want to do in 2014 with WCS.

On October 15 2013 09:43 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
  • No more seasonal finals
  • Three seasons instead of four
  • Considering some sort of lock, probably not hard region lock
  • Possibly Ro32 live
  • Possibly ladder contribution to be relevant
  • Some way to involve teams
  • Rethinking the point system
  • More linear system and reworking Challenger League

These are all (extremely) positive changes for the scene. It's good to leave more room to hype each WCS and create room for other tournaments both online and offline. Hopefully the prize money from the missing tournaments leads to some of that finding its way back into the scene. Purely from a structural perspective it is a huge improvement and absolutely what is needed. Most of the above are badly needed, all are improvements, and it is good to see they are being considered. Half of the reactions are really confusing me. It seems an absurd amount of negativity even though most of the information is positive.

Moderatorlickypiddy
Littlesheep
Profile Joined August 2012
Canada217 Posts
October 17 2013 14:54 GMT
#580
I think WCS could be a really cool system that would help foreign teams get exposure and possibly cause some new foreign teams to emerge.

That is, if it really gets region locked.
pro toez
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