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On October 02 2013 19:46 Fionn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The worst thing, to me, about the current WCS system -- outside the whole players being able to touch down in their "region" for four days every three months and then fly back to their actual home region -- is the grand slam seasonal finals. If you're going to do regions and build those storylines, then how backwards is it that those two plus months of games are completely wiped out a weak later at the grand slam finals?
Maru, a prodigy, and a huge underdog against Rain in the WCS finals, went on to beat the favored reigning champion in a memorable series. You had the iconic moment with his mom hugging him, Maru celebrating with his sister and a decent sized crowd cheering him. This was all negated when Maru had to travel to Europe the weekend after, lost -- if I remember correctly -- in the group stages, and Bomber went on to win the championship. Polt, duckdeok and Maru all had interesting tales to their championships, but none of it mattered because Bomber and Jaedong ended up in the finals and were featured on a larger scale with more money going there way.
1. Make the players have to actually reside in their home region. While it's funny to talk about Mvp being a European native, it's less humorous when he plays with awful lag in the Ro32, and then if he makes it farther, comes down for a few days and then leaves right away when the games are over. I thought the whole point of not region locking was so that Koreans could go to other regions, play on those servers, and up the competition around them by living in European/North American team houses. Currently, that is exactly the opposite of what is going on.
2. Kill the seasonal grand slams. They're awful for narrative purposes. Fucking awful. By themselves, disregarding the entire WCS story from Season 1 opening to Blizzcon Finals, the grand slams were produced awesomely -- with great crowds, good casting and hosting, and Blizzard got higher viewership than the respective regions were able to deliver with their finals. But if you actually want to tell a story and build heroes, villains, and interesting characters, YOU CANNOT continue the grand slam finals. It's incredibly damaging to crown three champions from three regions and two weeks later have all three perform poorly against people who didn't even make their respective region's finals.
Even when you had Sniper, the craziest, least likely champion of all-time in a rushed GSL season, you still had time to build him up. Was he a gigantic fluke? Is he actually good? What's going to happen next season? Will someone rise up to challenge him? If the current WCS system was implemented during the time Sniper won his GSL, then he most likely would have flown to Europe or America a week later, got his ass kicked in the group stages, and everyone shrugging their shoulders going "Well, that last season of GSL was a complete waste of time."
The prestige of a GSL and OSL title right now is like a soda that has been left out overnight. It's flat. It might taste good going down, but the aftertaste is nasty. I want Starcraft to succeed. It's the game that got me into writing and loving e-sports, so while I think it's not in a healthy position currently, it can get better with a few changes going into 2014.
Just my long ranting thoughts.
And the nice thing with your proposal is that you can build up Blizzcon as a TI-like event to serve as a closure to the year's story lines.
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On October 02 2013 19:21 Waxangel wrote:
Interesting opinion from the Korean scene!
I'd hardly call that an opinion. More like a substance-less whine.
Basically he says WCS is bad. Like really baaaaaaddddd. Why is it bad? Who knows. He never says.
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from all this korean cataclysm I'll only miss the proleague.
mlg and ogn can go and $%@# themselves.
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United States33077 Posts
On October 02 2013 19:35 Dodgin wrote:
glad to see we're adopting the reddit method of sensationalized thread titles.
yah that was the title of the orig article, gonna change it before newsing it on TL D:
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On October 02 2013 19:43 Ketch wrote:
Pfff.... Korea just needs more tournaments next to WCS that's all. Is it Blizz'es fault that there are no additional tournaments? I don't think so. They can just be organized right?
They can't just be organized. Correct me if i am wrong but wasn't there a rule that you couldn't stream/play a tournament when the WCS was going on? Now if you think about how many hours/day there is WCS going on you see its nearly impossible to organize other stuff.
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I am not surprised that these single sponsor teams are having a hard time. The fact that they have all their eggs in one basket is just to risky if that sponsor decides to move on.
Also, the title is pretty hyperbolic. The only way he said that is if you add the word "ruined",
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On October 02 2013 19:53 xuanzue wrote:
form all this korean cataclysm I'll only miss the proleague.
mlg and ogn can go and $%@# themselves.
MLG only decided to not run sc2 at ONE event, they still pay two inhouse casters a salary so they are obv not done with star 2. OGN just ran a fucking starleague and probably will run more in 2014. Proleague will stick around, they announced LoL pl not the closure of sc2 pl and another sc2 pl will happen. Jesus there is not cataclysm only a scene that is way to big finally shrinking to it's actual proportions.
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On October 02 2013 19:42 Insoleet wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 19:39 Caladan wrote:
In my opinion, thats BS. SC2 gameplay flaws ruined SC2. The game ruined the game.
Also Blizzard's price politics ruined SC2 in Asia from the start. It was 60+40 bucks (SC2+HotS) vs free (LoL). That's a joke.
Before WCS it was all just about to break together, Blizzard just prolonged SC2's life with money (WCS).
It does not matter if zero viewers watch GSL or if zero viewers watch WCS GSL. I totally agree with you
I strongly agree as well. The whole WCS thingie is just a bonus.
Also, thread title... come on.
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It's interesting to see that some people even now STILL deny SC2/WCS is in a crisis, with 8/10 of news are about retirments, disbands and flaws of sc2/blizzard/wcs. Also the WCS viewership drops from day to day, from week to week.
Why deny that? To live in a fantasy wonder world?
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United States23455 Posts
On October 02 2013 19:51 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 19:46 Fionn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The worst thing, to me, about the current WCS system -- outside the whole players being able to touch down in their "region" for four days every three months and then fly back to their actual home region -- is the grand slam seasonal finals. If you're going to do regions and build those storylines, then how backwards is it that those two plus months of games are completely wiped out a weak later at the grand slam finals?
Maru, a prodigy, and a huge underdog against Rain in the WCS finals, went on to beat the favored reigning champion in a memorable series. You had the iconic moment with his mom hugging him, Maru celebrating with his sister and a decent sized crowd cheering him. This was all negated when Maru had to travel to Europe the weekend after, lost -- if I remember correctly -- in the group stages, and Bomber went on to win the championship. Polt, duckdeok and Maru all had interesting tales to their championships, but none of it mattered because Bomber and Jaedong ended up in the finals and were featured on a larger scale with more money going there way.
1. Make the players have to actually reside in their home region. While it's funny to talk about Mvp being a European native, it's less humorous when he plays with awful lag in the Ro32, and then if he makes it farther, comes down for a few days and then leaves right away when the games are over. I thought the whole point of not region locking was so that Koreans could go to other regions, play on those servers, and up the competition around them by living in European/North American team houses. Currently, that is exactly the opposite of what is going on.
2. Kill the seasonal grand slams. They're awful for narrative purposes. Fucking awful. By themselves, disregarding the entire WCS story from Season 1 opening to Blizzcon Finals, the grand slams were produced awesomely -- with great crowds, good casting and hosting, and Blizzard got higher viewership than the respective regions were able to deliver with their finals. But if you actually want to tell a story and build heroes, villains, and interesting characters, YOU CANNOT continue the grand slam finals. It's incredibly damaging to crown three champions from three regions and two weeks later have all three perform poorly against people who didn't even make their respective region's finals.
Even when you had Sniper, the craziest, least likely champion of all-time in a rushed GSL season, you still had time to build him up. Was he a gigantic fluke? Is he actually good? What's going to happen next season? Will someone rise up to challenge him? If the current WCS system was implemented during the time Sniper won his GSL, then he most likely would have flown to Europe or America a week later, got his ass kicked in the group stages, and everyone shrugging their shoulders going "Well, that last season of GSL was a complete waste of time."
The prestige of a GSL and OSL title right now is like a soda that has been left out overnight. It's flat. It might taste good going down, but the aftertaste is nasty. I want Starcraft to succeed. It's the game that got me into writing and loving e-sports, so while I think it's not in a healthy position currently, it can get better with a few changes going into 2014.
Just my long ranting thoughts. And the nice thing with your proposal is that you can build up Blizzcon as a TI-like event to serve as a closure to the year's story lines.
Exactly. This is what TI and LoL Season Finals that the WCS totally bungled on. In LoL, it's a consensus pretty much that Korea and China are #1 and #2 when it comes to team depth and how good they are, but the five regions in League (NA, Eu, Korea, China, and SEA) only meet twice per year. Once during the all-star event, which while can be an indicator of how good a region is (China and Korea were the finals this year), it is seen as a fun event and thrown together teams from a collection of squads isn't a definite answer. The other time they meet is at the end of the season during the World Finals.
If Riot did what WCS did this year, then that would mean after TSM (the most popular NA team) won the spring season of Riot's LCS equivalent of WCS North America, they would be sent off to play against the best Korean and Chinese teams. This would have most likely ended with TSM getting destroyed, the North American fan base feeling discouraged, and the next season of LCS NA look weak in comparison.
It's alright if WCS NA is region-locked and is considered weaker than WCS Korea. It might be too late with how long we've seen white guys getting beat up by Koreans, but if you can hold off the slaughtering and raise foreign hopes like Scarlett, Naniwa and others throughout the three Europe and NA seasons, the foreign community will latch onto those players and start to believe. Yeah, in the end, the Koreans will most likely win in the end, but it's not a guarantee. Did you see that Finnish player come out of nowhere in WCS Europe Season 3? Wow, he's really good in PvT. Could he make an upset in the World Finals?
You'll probably get backlash at first for just having mostly Euros vs. Euros or Americans vs. Americans (and Polt), but if you keep building new stars, pushing stories and crafting narratives, then people will start to believe in foreigners heading into the World Finals. It doesn't matter if it's a Korean vs. Korean final at Blizzcon, but if you can get people to believe the stories you build up throughout an entire year, then the hype and anticipation of the World Finals would be epic.
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On October 02 2013 19:57 Caladan wrote:
It's interesting to see that some people even now STILL deny SC2/WCS is in a crisis, with 8/10 of news are about retirments, disbands and flaws of sc2/blizzard/wcs. Also the WCS viewership drops from day to day, from week to week.
Why deny that? To live in a fantasy wonder world?
Except all the bad news comes out of Korea, which has several times as many SC2 players as any other region and a population that is watching more LoL. I hear very little bad news coming out of EU or NA.
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On October 02 2013 19:57 Caladan wrote:
It's interesting to see that some people even now STILL deny SC2/WCS is in a crisis, with 8/10 of news are about retirments, disbands and flaws of sc2/blizzard/wcs. Also the WCS viewership drops from day to day, from week to week.
Why deny that? To live in a fantasy wonder world?
Its a fucking off season for a reason. I guess it depends on what you expect from this game. Most people seem to feel like it needs to be the no1 esport globally and in korea. Personally I just need a few koreans to play it for 12 hours a day. I don't think anyone is denying that it's in decline. There is just a difference between people thinking it will go away and people thinking that it's just shrinking to what it can actually sustain.
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Fionn but then we will have so little terrans other than KR.
Not to mention the general skill gap will just be widen as times go by and more koreans might find it hard to earn enough money.
LoL skill gap between each region isn't super high and while I am not that into LoL scene, I know there are pretty much a few talents in each regions and so even in a region vs region tournament, it would appear to be ok.
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On October 02 2013 19:29 Plansix wrote:
To many teams, not enough money to go around. WCS or no, there are just to many Korean teams for the scene to support right now.
There is no leagues and events in Korea.
Brood War had MSL, OSL, SPL and different shows.
SC2 has WCS and splited team leagues which are unpopular due to this split.
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On October 02 2013 20:00 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 19:51 Grumbels wrote:On October 02 2013 19:46 Fionn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The worst thing, to me, about the current WCS system -- outside the whole players being able to touch down in their "region" for four days every three months and then fly back to their actual home region -- is the grand slam seasonal finals. If you're going to do regions and build those storylines, then how backwards is it that those two plus months of games are completely wiped out a weak later at the grand slam finals?
Maru, a prodigy, and a huge underdog against Rain in the WCS finals, went on to beat the favored reigning champion in a memorable series. You had the iconic moment with his mom hugging him, Maru celebrating with his sister and a decent sized crowd cheering him. This was all negated when Maru had to travel to Europe the weekend after, lost -- if I remember correctly -- in the group stages, and Bomber went on to win the championship. Polt, duckdeok and Maru all had interesting tales to their championships, but none of it mattered because Bomber and Jaedong ended up in the finals and were featured on a larger scale with more money going there way.
1. Make the players have to actually reside in their home region. While it's funny to talk about Mvp being a European native, it's less humorous when he plays with awful lag in the Ro32, and then if he makes it farther, comes down for a few days and then leaves right away when the games are over. I thought the whole point of not region locking was so that Koreans could go to other regions, play on those servers, and up the competition around them by living in European/North American team houses. Currently, that is exactly the opposite of what is going on.
2. Kill the seasonal grand slams. They're awful for narrative purposes. Fucking awful. By themselves, disregarding the entire WCS story from Season 1 opening to Blizzcon Finals, the grand slams were produced awesomely -- with great crowds, good casting and hosting, and Blizzard got higher viewership than the respective regions were able to deliver with their finals. But if you actually want to tell a story and build heroes, villains, and interesting characters, YOU CANNOT continue the grand slam finals. It's incredibly damaging to crown three champions from three regions and two weeks later have all three perform poorly against people who didn't even make their respective region's finals.
Even when you had Sniper, the craziest, least likely champion of all-time in a rushed GSL season, you still had time to build him up. Was he a gigantic fluke? Is he actually good? What's going to happen next season? Will someone rise up to challenge him? If the current WCS system was implemented during the time Sniper won his GSL, then he most likely would have flown to Europe or America a week later, got his ass kicked in the group stages, and everyone shrugging their shoulders going "Well, that last season of GSL was a complete waste of time."
The prestige of a GSL and OSL title right now is like a soda that has been left out overnight. It's flat. It might taste good going down, but the aftertaste is nasty. I want Starcraft to succeed. It's the game that got me into writing and loving e-sports, so while I think it's not in a healthy position currently, it can get better with a few changes going into 2014.
Just my long ranting thoughts. And the nice thing with your proposal is that you can build up Blizzcon as a TI-like event to serve as a closure to the year's story lines. Exactly. This is what TI and LoL Season Finals that the WCS totally bungled on. In LoL, it's a consensus pretty much that Korea and China are #1 and #2 when it comes to team depth and how good they are, but the five regions in League (NA, Eu, Korea, China, and SEA) only meet twice per year. Once during the all-star event, which while can be an indicator of how good a region is (China and Korea were the finals this year), it is seen as a fun event and thrown together teams from a collection of squads isn't a definite answer. The other time they meet is at the end of the season during the World Finals. If Riot did what WCS did this year, then that would mean after TSM (the most popular NA team) won the spring season of Riot's LCS equivalent of WCS North America, they would be sent off to play against the best Korean and Chinese teams. This would have most likely ended with TSM getting destroyed, the North American fan base feeling discouraged, and the next season of LCS NA look weak in comparison. It's alright if WCS NA is region-locked and is considered weaker than WCS Korea. It might be too late with how long we've seen white guys getting beat up by Koreans, but if you can hold off the slaughtering and raise foreign hopes like Scarlett, Naniwa and others throughout the three Europe and NA seasons, the foreign community will latch onto those players and start to believe. Yeah, in the end, the Koreans will most likely win in the end, but it's not a guarantee. Did you see that Finnish player come out of nowhere in WCS Europe Season 3? Wow, he's really good in PvT. Could he make an upset in the World Finals? You'll probably get backlash at first for just having mostly Euros vs. Euros or Americans vs. Americans (and Polt), but if you keep building new stars, pushing stories and crafting narratives, then people will start to believe in foreigners heading into the World Finals. It doesn't matter if it's a Korean vs. Korean final at Blizzcon, but if you can get people to believe the stories you build up throughout an entire year, then the hype and anticipation of the World Finals would be epic.
Ah Fionn what would we do without you :3
I totally agree on the storyline part especially in combination with the region locking.
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On October 02 2013 20:05 DiMano wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 19:29 Plansix wrote:
To many teams, not enough money to go around. WCS or no, there are just to many Korean teams for the scene to support right now. There is no leagues and events in Korea. Brood War had MSL, OSL, SPL and different shows. SC2 has WCS and splited team leagues which are unpopular due to this split.
Man, they should combined that team league into one super team league!
Oh wait, this is GOM and OGN we are talking about, that will never happen. WCS is not the only problem in the Korea scene.
Also: Fionn is a smart dude.
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Wow the ignorance of people... WCS system is hurting Koreans even more than foreigners.
The system helps foreigners much more than Koreans.
... In the end, Sc2 is pretty much in a coma.
Dead game? No, but barely alive? Yes.
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On October 02 2013 20:00 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 19:51 Grumbels wrote:On October 02 2013 19:46 Fionn wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The worst thing, to me, about the current WCS system -- outside the whole players being able to touch down in their "region" for four days every three months and then fly back to their actual home region -- is the grand slam seasonal finals. If you're going to do regions and build those storylines, then how backwards is it that those two plus months of games are completely wiped out a weak later at the grand slam finals?
Maru, a prodigy, and a huge underdog against Rain in the WCS finals, went on to beat the favored reigning champion in a memorable series. You had the iconic moment with his mom hugging him, Maru celebrating with his sister and a decent sized crowd cheering him. This was all negated when Maru had to travel to Europe the weekend after, lost -- if I remember correctly -- in the group stages, and Bomber went on to win the championship. Polt, duckdeok and Maru all had interesting tales to their championships, but none of it mattered because Bomber and Jaedong ended up in the finals and were featured on a larger scale with more money going there way.
1. Make the players have to actually reside in their home region. While it's funny to talk about Mvp being a European native, it's less humorous when he plays with awful lag in the Ro32, and then if he makes it farther, comes down for a few days and then leaves right away when the games are over. I thought the whole point of not region locking was so that Koreans could go to other regions, play on those servers, and up the competition around them by living in European/North American team houses. Currently, that is exactly the opposite of what is going on.
2. Kill the seasonal grand slams. They're awful for narrative purposes. Fucking awful. By themselves, disregarding the entire WCS story from Season 1 opening to Blizzcon Finals, the grand slams were produced awesomely -- with great crowds, good casting and hosting, and Blizzard got higher viewership than the respective regions were able to deliver with their finals. But if you actually want to tell a story and build heroes, villains, and interesting characters, YOU CANNOT continue the grand slam finals. It's incredibly damaging to crown three champions from three regions and two weeks later have all three perform poorly against people who didn't even make their respective region's finals.
Even when you had Sniper, the craziest, least likely champion of all-time in a rushed GSL season, you still had time to build him up. Was he a gigantic fluke? Is he actually good? What's going to happen next season? Will someone rise up to challenge him? If the current WCS system was implemented during the time Sniper won his GSL, then he most likely would have flown to Europe or America a week later, got his ass kicked in the group stages, and everyone shrugging their shoulders going "Well, that last season of GSL was a complete waste of time."
The prestige of a GSL and OSL title right now is like a soda that has been left out overnight. It's flat. It might taste good going down, but the aftertaste is nasty. I want Starcraft to succeed. It's the game that got me into writing and loving e-sports, so while I think it's not in a healthy position currently, it can get better with a few changes going into 2014.
Just my long ranting thoughts. And the nice thing with your proposal is that you can build up Blizzcon as a TI-like event to serve as a closure to the year's story lines. Exactly. This is what TI and LoL Season Finals that the WCS totally bungled on. In LoL, it's a consensus pretty much that Korea and China are #1 and #2 when it comes to team depth and how good they are, but the five regions in League (NA, Eu, Korea, China, and SEA) only meet twice per year. Once during the all-star event, which while can be an indicator of how good a region is (China and Korea were the finals this year), it is seen as a fun event and thrown together teams from a collection of squads isn't a definite answer. The other time they meet is at the end of the season during the World Finals. If Riot did what WCS did this year, then that would mean after TSM (the most popular NA team) won the spring season of Riot's LCS equivalent of WCS North America, they would be sent off to play against the best Korean and Chinese teams. This would have most likely ended with TSM getting destroyed, the North American fan base feeling discouraged, and the next season of LCS NA look weak in comparison. It's alright if WCS NA is region-locked and is considered weaker than WCS Korea. It might be too late with how long we've seen white guys getting beat up by Koreans, but if you can hold off the slaughtering and raise foreign hopes like Scarlett, Naniwa and others throughout the three Europe and NA seasons, the foreign community will latch onto those players and start to believe. Yeah, in the end, the Koreans will most likely win in the end, but it's not a guarantee. Did you see that Finnish player come out of nowhere in WCS Europe Season 3? Wow, he's really good in PvT. Could he make an upset in the World Finals? You'll probably get backlash at first for just having mostly Euros vs. Euros or Americans vs. Americans (and Polt), but if you keep building new stars, pushing stories and crafting narratives, then people will start to believe in foreigners heading into the World Finals. It doesn't matter if it's a Korean vs. Korean final at Blizzcon, but if you can get people to believe the stories you build up throughout an entire year, then the hype and anticipation of the World Finals would be epic.
you could compare it to the wcg grand finals. people always knew that the foreigners were the clear underdogs BUT there was always hype around certain players and if they managed to take even one map off a korean it was a very big deal
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Oooh scathing rebuke of WCS system. Choya thought it would be an abundance of support and opportunities for team and it became hopelessly monolithic for competition and a downer for sponsors.
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EPT
