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Ace Frehley
2030 Posts
On October 06 2013 14:28 Kergy wrote: Everytime you feel bad for the state of SC2, just remember that things could be much... much worse. The only thing missing are the crickets chirping And a tumbleweed ball rolling on the wind | ||
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
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Tryxtira
Sweden572 Posts
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Kheve
323 Posts
On October 05 2013 08:40 chaos021 wrote: +1 The WCS is terrible. I don't know anyone who is actually a fan of it. People will watch it. Hell, it's the only thing to watch on most night that involves some of the better know players. The problem is that it strangles everything else. I've stopped playing and watching a lot of SC2. Every now and then, I'll catch some GOM when I can or that team tournament that EG runs. Other than that, SC2 is dead to me. I like it coz i only started watching sc again since bw days. Never followed anything else of sc. Wcs europe casters were very good in introducing the game the history etc. Best to watch since east v west element is there. | ||
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Wulfen
35 Posts
On October 02 2013 19:31 playerboy345 wrote: This, I've pretty much stopped watching sc2 because of WCS. I also like the tournament landscape before. I watch GSL as the only weekly tournament, were all the big people rock the maps And MLG and DH for Weekend clashes | ||
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e4e5nf3
Canada599 Posts
On October 02 2013 19:24 GizmoPT wrote: we need some savior of eSports LoL fans will argue that their game is it. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On October 05 2013 08:40 chaos021 wrote: +1 The WCS is terrible. I don't know anyone who is actually a fan of it. People will watch it. Hell, it's the only thing to watch on most night that involves some of the better know players. The problem is that it strangles everything else. I've stopped playing and watching a lot of SC2. Every now and then, I'll catch some GOM when I can or that team tournament that EG runs. Other than that, SC2 is dead to me. I love the WCS, I've never seen so many up and coming players in Europe as right now. Most of them have been here for a long time, but they lacked the opportunity to climb up the competitive scene WCS gave them last year. I hope this will continue next year!!! :D | ||
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e4e5nf3
Canada599 Posts
Flashforward to now and there is a lot of gripe about the WCS being bad for SC2.... when in fact its very format and structure was barely changed from when it was announced. It's not like we weren't prepared for it... Blizzard layed it all out in front of us from day one. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On October 08 2013 08:33 e4e5nf3 wrote: Wow, back when WCS was announced there was a lot of positive feedback and "this will save SC2" posts abound. There were also comparisons to LoL's world championships and that this type of tournament was needed for the scene. Flashforward to now and there is a lot of gripe about the WCS being bad for SC2.... when in fact its very format and structure was barely changed from when it was announced. It's not like we weren't prepared for it... Blizzard layed it all out in front of us from day one. It has nothing to do with SC2. Even at the high of BW, there were only 12 major teams. SC2 is not as big as BW, yet there are way to many Korean teams and players and a lot of them are not good enough to be professionals. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On October 08 2013 08:43 StarStruck wrote: That comes down to the structure though. Technically anyone can call themselves professional gamers these days. Back then, you either were or weren't. These days it's a gray area. Any player could retire from SC2 tomorrow and right a heart felt blog about their struggles as a "professional" but now I must move on and be an adult. I am sure some people would blame it on SC2, Blizzard and WCS. The simple fact of the matter is that there are to many players calling themselves "pros" in Korea. | ||
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Firestorm
Canada341 Posts
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On October 08 2013 08:36 Plansix wrote: sc2 is substantially larger than BW ever was, and its an international scene, of which most pros have remained a part of making less than minimum wage for years. Its collapse is because you cant even make that anymore. Its WCS/declining popularity, and obviously personal distaste on the part of some switched over kespa players. Not an inflated player base.It has nothing to do with SC2. Even at the high of BW, there were only 12 major teams. SC2 is not as big as BW, yet there are way to many Korean teams and players and a lot of them are not good enough to be professionals. | ||
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riyanme
Philippines940 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On October 08 2013 09:17 Dazed_Spy wrote: sc2 is substantially larger than BW ever was, and its an international scene, of which most pros have remained a part of making less than minimum wage for years. Its collapse is because you cant even make that anymore. Its WCS/declining popularity, and obviously personal distaste on the part of some switched over kespa players. Not an inflated player base. Yet there are more Korean pros retiring than NA and EU combined. The Korea player base is super inflated and the numbers back that up. FXOBoss's blog backs it up too, along with the idea that the players overvalue themselves. | ||
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Goldfish
2230 Posts
Of course, you can argue that GSL and/or OSL would have potentially downsized too, even without WCS. That's very valid and it happened before with GSL (2012 had much less than 2011 for example). Plus, OSL potentially was going to stop doing SC2 period. Though I think if fewer tournaments, the prize money probably would have stayed the same. About the season finals, technically the WCS system was outside of GSL and stuff, so Koreans can participate in GSL, OSL, and WCS (and since WCS was separate at the same time, more money). Of course you can argue that the way Blizzard did it last year, it wasn't as sustainable and they probably wouldn't have continued that path. So, it is valid to say the money from the Season finals do make up for less of a prize pool. Overall, I think WCS is a risk Blizzard needed to take and it's good and will probably be good next season. For example, there are a lot more new up and comers being shown thanks to the WCS system. It's not as good as it could have been but certain better than before. The only issue is the whole limiting of Korean tournaments and prize pool and the lack of region lock (thus, Koreans are even more encouraged to play in NA or EU instead). Besides that, the problem isn't due to the tournament system (it could be better of course but not the main problem), it's just the game at it's state (and its ability to keep interest in viewers). This year, Dota 2 was finally released out of beta and LoL continues to get more and more popular. Not only that, Hearthstone is getting lots of hype too. (While Hearthstone isn't a major competitive game, it is where the viewers or non-pros will probably go. If there are less viewers and players for SC2, then there will be less of a market for more tournaments and sponsors for SC2 due to less viewers.) The solution to all of these problems it to clearly combine Hearthstone with SC2 somehow. On a serious note though, the biggest problems with SC2 compared to LoL, Dota, even Hearthstone is the fact that SC2 isn't a changing game. LoL, Dota, card games, etc all get new stuff added frequently (new Heroes for Dota and LoL, new cards for card games) and they add variety to the game. If two games are equal in fun but one gets new stuff added more often while the other is just the same thing, which one will likely hold your interest longer? I think WC4 has the potential. Even in WC3, they did add new heroes through patches (Goblin Tinker, Alchemist, and Firelord). Silly WC4 idea + Show Spoiler + Though, what they need to do with WC4 is get rid of races, make it a draft system. Like something like this in a 1v1 game (before the game starts, there's sort of a drafting and banning system): Player 1 bans Blademaster. Player 2 bans Guard Tower. Player 1 picks Farm, footmen, night elf archers, and moon wells. Player 2 picks Orc burrows, grunts, crypt fields, graveyards, etc. Make it so you can mix and match (to a certain extent, like you have a 30-40 unit/structure limitation total and you need to make pick units/structures within those limitations). Races are a limiting factor and it means the game can't change or get new stuff added as much due to "balance" complaints. When everyone can just build whatever from a pool of units and structures (like in Dota, LoL, card games, etc), then there's more room for the game to grow and get better and also it makes the game more interesting than pick 1 race and that's it. Crazy idea but I don't think the same formula will work for traditional RTS anymore (if it at least wants to stay competitive with other games of similar genre anyway). | ||
Darkhorse
United States23455 Posts
On October 08 2013 08:25 e4e5nf3 wrote: LoL fans will argue that their game is it. Plus Savior got banned for life I'm pretty sure. | ||
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chaos021
United States258 Posts
On October 08 2013 08:33 e4e5nf3 wrote: Wow, back when WCS was announced there was a lot of positive feedback and "this will save SC2" posts abound. There were also comparisons to LoL's world championships and that this type of tournament was needed for the scene. Flashforward to now and there is a lot of gripe about the WCS being bad for SC2.... when in fact its very format and structure was barely changed from when it was announced. It's not like we weren't prepared for it... Blizzard layed it all out in front of us from day one. Uh no. I don't think anyone knew it was going to strangle every other tournament from casting while it was going on. If they posted that, then you're right. I'm whining about something I should've seen coming, but afaik, they didn't. On top of that, the prize split isn't amazing, and the format is convoluted in my opinion. I know the numbers are big for the top finishers of the global regional finals, but when I consider that basically this is a pro's focus for the entire year if s/he manages to stay in the running, it feels a little meh. I guess you'd be better be the best worldwide or else you're gonna waste a year of your life since nothing else runs while it's going on! | ||
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Kheve
323 Posts
On October 08 2013 09:17 Dazed_Spy wrote: sc2 is substantially larger than BW ever was, and its an international scene, of which most pros have remained a part of making less than minimum wage for years. Its collapse is because you cant even make that anymore. Its WCS/declining popularity, and obviously personal distaste on the part of some switched over kespa players. Not an inflated player base. Nonsense -_-. Please do not compare kespa teams and non-kespa teams. Its totally different. Non kespa teams are like western teams. Revenue streams are only from sponsors and fan merchandising. Abnd most sponsors are not stable kinda dodgy. Kespa teams are proper teams with very strong contracts with the backing of the Law recognising the team. Benefits insurances etc etc financial statements etc etc. Revenue streams are more varied as they get a cut of broadcasting revenue so long as they participate in the proleague. Name me a single sponsor of non-kespa team that is not involved in IT industry.... none. Look at kespa, SKT, samsung and now Jin Air lol. SC2 was never bigger than BW ever was -_-. Not even close in fact. SC2 is merely inflated by the expectations of sponsors that its the next BW. When the audience is not there, its dead. Theres like 4 or 5 million original BW sold in korea. And plenty of other pirated ones in cybercafes. That gives u a fanbase/audience of say maybe 8-10 million ( i think they peaked at 3million for an osl finals). SC2 worldwide adding up wcs america, korea, europe even assuming all audience only follow 1 region, is less than quarter of million. SC2 was never big, it was jes inflated by the expectations of new sponsors thats all. The only real esport ever in history is Kespa BW. All the rest are dodgy imitations and wannabe. Dreamhack MLG are event organisers. They could have similar success organising pokemon events during its peak but hey, events are what u do if you cant make a billion dollar industry on broadcast and merchandising alone. Funimation would never allow pokemon to be associated with that. | ||
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lowercase
Canada1047 Posts
On October 08 2013 17:33 Kheve wrote: The only real esport ever in history is Kespa BW. All the rest are dodgy imitations and wannabe. Dreamhack MLG are event organisers. They could have similar success organising pokemon events during its peak but hey, events are what u do if you cant make a billion dollar industry on broadcast and merchandising alone. Funimation would never allow pokemon to be associated with that. You still can't deny that the international following for BW was next-to-nothing. SC2, and Twitch.tv, brought eSports into the mainstream, really over only the past three years. SC2 isn't doing as well in Korea as its predecessor (mainly because hardcore BW fans in Korea recognize that SC2 is, fundamentally, an inferior game), but it's certainly bigger world-wide than BW ever was. The corollary to this is that it is still the Korean scene that is the driving force in competitive Starcraft, and if the Korean scene weakens then the entire sport weakens as a consequence. I also think western viewers aren't as loyal as Korean fans were in BW, and I get the feeling players are emigrating to new games. This could have been mitigated if SC2 had the depth and complexity of BW, but without that it lacks the lasting power of BW. Blizzard's emphasis on always-online DRM, noob-friendly features, and Battle Net 0.2 are also hindering SC2's prospects for growth. Ultimately, I just wish Blizzard would re-make BW perfectly in a new engine. They have never addressed the major eSports issues of SC2, and it's unlikely they ever will. Still, GSL rules, and I still subscribe to it after all these years.  | ||
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