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On October 02 2013 21:04 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I think it's to late though. The WCS sprayed their stink onto the market and made sc2 one of the Least watched eSports
Why do people say things like this? The game isn't on LoL or DOTA2's level, but it generally is right there, at #3 on Twitch most of the time. And the viewer drop off after SC2 is crazy. If you say SC2 is dead I don't know what you say about every game that isn't LoL or DOTA2...
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On October 05 2013 09:48 MattyClutch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2013 21:04 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I think it's to late though. The WCS sprayed their stink onto the market and made sc2 one of the Least watched eSports Why do people say things like this? The game isn't on LoL or DOTA2's level, but it generally is right there, at #3 on Twitch most of the time. And the viewer drop off after SC2 is crazy. If you say SC2 is dead I don't know what you say about every game that isn't LoL or DOTA2...
From expectation standpoint, SC2's irreversible downturn indeed comes too soon. Everybody expected SC2 won't drop off so quickly from contending position of e-sports crown, even BW elitists who hate SC2 didn't expect it to happen so quickly. From the look of it, future SC2 scene will at best be like WC3, considering WC3 scene wasn't dominated by one country.
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What kills it for me is a convoluted format that really isn't all that exciting and that it chokes out other stuff. I also really don't understand why it runs all year long and isn't region-locked. The old WCS was pretty cool. Even the Artosis-coached team in the old team world tournament had some good moments. What they have going now simply does not excite me. Maybe part of it is that SC2 is becoming stale to me.
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On October 05 2013 10:03 BuzzKillington wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 09:48 MattyClutch wrote:On October 02 2013 21:04 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I think it's to late though. The WCS sprayed their stink onto the market and made sc2 one of the Least watched eSports Why do people say things like this? The game isn't on LoL or DOTA2's level, but it generally is right there, at #3 on Twitch most of the time. And the viewer drop off after SC2 is crazy. If you say SC2 is dead I don't know what you say about every game that isn't LoL or DOTA2... From expectation standpoint, SC2's irreversible downturn indeed comes too soon. Everybody expected SC2 won't drop off so quickly from contending position of e-sports crown, even BW elitists who hate SC2 didn't expect it to happen so quickly. From the look of it, future SC2 scene will at best be like WC3, considering WC3 scene wasn't dominated by one country.
Wasn't the old WC3 scene world-wide bigger than BW? I seem to remember they had regular leagues in Germany and China and quite a following in S. Korea too. If that's where SC2 stabilizes to, I don't see that as a bad thing.
But you're right about expectations, LoL has been gaining on SC2 for a long time now, I think popularity wise it overtook SC2 towards the end of WoL, which probably shocked a lot of TL-ers. The fact that HoTS wasn't able to reverse the trend jsut makes people more pessimistic. I think if LoL / DotA 2 wasn't around then half the doom around here would disappear.
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On October 05 2013 05:25 Noobity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2013 17:34 Incognoto wrote:
I actually consider WCS KR (ie GSL/OSL) a much more interesting tournament to watch than WCS Season finals.
For what it's worth, WCS NA and WCS EU is simply Koreans fighting Koreans and lag. Thing is, they then all get lumped together for a what is supposedly a "huge" seasonal finals. But it's anticlimactic in that the Koreans who played in NA and EU didn't have to work as hard as those from WCS KR. They're not bad (Taeja? JD? they're FAR from bad) but they didn't have to go through the same grueling competition as their WCS KR counterparts. So, as Fionn mentioned, WCS seasonal finals is basically a boring version of WCS KR where 2/3 of the players in that tournament simply bashed foreigners to get there. The last third "already had" their prestigious tournament and having another one back to back just doesn't make sense.
The thing is, if WCS were region locked, no one would care about WCS NA. As for WCS EU .. well I guess it might be interesting? I don't know, I don't follow the European players at all. Everyone would watch WCS KR and afterwards, in the seasonal finals, WCS KR would just crush the other two regions (minus a couple of excellent foreigners who might make a nice run).
If we're speaking purely of how interesting a tournament is, WCS is pretty uninteresting and flawed.
Blizzard had the good sense to try to inject some vitality into the scene but the way they tried to do that had more negative repercussions than anything else. I remember pre-WCS SC2 was already pretty good to watch. I don't know why they wanted to fix something that wasn't broken. If anything needed fixing, it was the game's design. They had a shot to do so in HOTS but many of the underlying flaws are still there. This bolded comment is brought up all the time and as the token guy to respond to it I'll say the same honest thing I say every time I see it: Region locking would not affect the amount of time I spend watching KR games in the least. It would increase the amount of time I would watch NA and EU games. I don't think I'm in the minority, I think I'm in the minority of outspoken viewers, but I think that the amount of people who would love to watch NA based players (Korean or otherwise) compete with other NA based players, EU based players (Korean or otherwise) compete with other EU based players is very close to equal. Don't underestimate the value of something because it's not what you want to see. I mean no malice with this statement, but I feel like it's an incredibly common statement from the more vocal individuals when there is no proof to it. The only purely NA tournament in the past 2 years that had any sort of viewership was shoutcraft and that did exceptionally well considering it had to wrap itself around WCS in some kind of crazy contortion just to allow it to be played. I think at the very least it's an experiment that deserves a season's chance to be successful.
Yeah I agree shoutcraft was pretty nice. Maybe you're right, maybe I'm wrong. I guess there's no way to be sure, mostly because this is speculation on my part. That said, why wasn't there another shoutcraft after the first one? I think it's possible that one of the reasons shoutcraft worked out the way it did was because it was literally the only NA-only tournament. That got people curious because it was the only tournament that would feature only players from NA. However, if you have this exclusive tournament be a series of tournaments, will people really watched prolonged NA-only SC? The first time was interesting because of how unique it was. Take away that uniqueness by making the tournament regular, maybe it won't draw as much of an audience.
That's why I feel WCS in general is kind of doomed to fail, region lock or not. If it's region locked, people lose interest because of the disparity between the level of play between each region (ie WCS grand finals become boring as fuck). If it isn't region locked, like right now, then people whine about how Koreans are murdering foreigners and taking their spots.
I could be wrong obviously but I really feel that WCS does more harm than good.
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kespa and gom are trying their best to save kr esports
alas, kr sc2 will never get bigger and will always be seen as minority game
the damage has been done and there is absolutely no way to fix
marketing kr sc2 will die on 2014....
why bother sponsoring that no one watches, negative image and discouraged players?
i would rather choose lol...
BUT
i still believe na and eu sc2 will continue to live on....
for how long... only time will tell...
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 05 2013 21:13 riyanme wrote:
kespa and gom are trying their best to save kr esports
Did not kespa tried it's best to get a nice grave yard for sc2 back to the times of WoL release?
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On October 05 2013 21:13 riyanme wrote:
kespa and gom are trying their best to save kr esports
alas, kr sc2 will never get bigger and will always be seen as minority game
the damage has been done and there is absolutely no way to fix
marketing kr sc2 will die on 2014....
why bother sponsoring that no one watches, negative image and discouraged players?
i would rather choose lol...
BUT
i still believe na and eu sc2 will continue to live on....
for how long... only time will tell...
With their current level of play as compared to top koreans who are dominating the game? Who would watch these amateurs? lol
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About tournaments: WCS is the main problem. No MLG and NASL anymore. Redbull only do 8man invite tournaments.
My suggestion: WCS is region locked and no Season Grandfinals ( S1 Inno, S2 Bomber) anymore. Korea has GSL and WCS (they deserve two of it).
For Blizzcon (32man): if all season ends (s1, s2, s3) from each region the top4 (from wcs points) are already qualified for blizzcon and the top36 (top36 - top4 = 32 from each region = 32*3= 96), they play like a 96man qualifier for the other 20 places (this makes possible that all 20 are from korea).
No WCS tier1&2 anymore, this is super terrible. If you need wcs points, do it only at wcs.
Prizepool must be better. 1st=30k, 2nd 15k, 3/4 10k. 5-8th 5k. Additional the top32 get 2,5k as "entrance bonus".
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On October 05 2013 22:44 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 21:13 riyanme wrote:
kespa and gom are trying their best to save kr esports
alas, kr sc2 will never get bigger and will always be seen as minority game
the damage has been done and there is absolutely no way to fix
marketing kr sc2 will die on 2014....
why bother sponsoring that no one watches, negative image and discouraged players?
i would rather choose lol...
BUT
i still believe na and eu sc2 will continue to live on....
for how long... only time will tell... With their current level of play as compared to top koreans who are dominating the game? Who would watch these amateurs? lol
The same people that have been subsidizing incredibly arrogant Korean players for 3 years now while these guys never really made the effort to interact with the foreign scene.
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On October 05 2013 22:49 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 22:44 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 05 2013 21:13 riyanme wrote:
kespa and gom are trying their best to save kr esports
alas, kr sc2 will never get bigger and will always be seen as minority game
the damage has been done and there is absolutely no way to fix
marketing kr sc2 will die on 2014....
why bother sponsoring that no one watches, negative image and discouraged players?
i would rather choose lol...
BUT
i still believe na and eu sc2 will continue to live on....
for how long... only time will tell... With their current level of play as compared to top koreans who are dominating the game? Who would watch these amateurs? lol The same people that have been subsidizing incredibly arrogant Korean players for 3 years now while these guys never really made the effort to interact with the foreign scene.
You have problems with arrogant players?
It's okay to be arrogant as long as you have the skills to back it up.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 05 2013 23:04 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 22:49 Otolia wrote:On October 05 2013 22:44 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 05 2013 21:13 riyanme wrote:
kespa and gom are trying their best to save kr esports
alas, kr sc2 will never get bigger and will always be seen as minority game
the damage has been done and there is absolutely no way to fix
marketing kr sc2 will die on 2014....
why bother sponsoring that no one watches, negative image and discouraged players?
i would rather choose lol...
BUT
i still believe na and eu sc2 will continue to live on....
for how long... only time will tell... With their current level of play as compared to top koreans who are dominating the game? Who would watch these amateurs? lol The same people that have been subsidizing incredibly arrogant Korean players for 3 years now while these guys never really made the effort to interact with the foreign scene. You have problems with arrogant players? It's okay to be arrogant as long as you have the skills to back it up.
And it's okay to not be arrogant if you do not have the skill to back it up :D
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On October 05 2013 23:10 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 23:04 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 05 2013 22:49 Otolia wrote:On October 05 2013 22:44 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 05 2013 21:13 riyanme wrote:
kespa and gom are trying their best to save kr esports
alas, kr sc2 will never get bigger and will always be seen as minority game
the damage has been done and there is absolutely no way to fix
marketing kr sc2 will die on 2014....
why bother sponsoring that no one watches, negative image and discouraged players?
i would rather choose lol...
BUT
i still believe na and eu sc2 will continue to live on....
for how long... only time will tell... With their current level of play as compared to top koreans who are dominating the game? Who would watch these amateurs? lol The same people that have been subsidizing incredibly arrogant Korean players for 3 years now while these guys never really made the effort to interact with the foreign scene. You have problems with arrogant players? It's okay to be arrogant as long as you have the skills to back it up. And it's okay to not be arrogant if you do not have the skill to back it up :D
That's like saying it's not okay to not be arrogant even if you have the skills to back it up 
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On October 05 2013 23:13 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 23:10 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 05 2013 23:04 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 05 2013 22:49 Otolia wrote:On October 05 2013 22:44 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 05 2013 21:13 riyanme wrote:
kespa and gom are trying their best to save kr esports
alas, kr sc2 will never get bigger and will always be seen as minority game
the damage has been done and there is absolutely no way to fix
marketing kr sc2 will die on 2014....
why bother sponsoring that no one watches, negative image and discouraged players?
i would rather choose lol...
BUT
i still believe na and eu sc2 will continue to live on....
for how long... only time will tell... With their current level of play as compared to top koreans who are dominating the game? Who would watch these amateurs? lol The same people that have been subsidizing incredibly arrogant Korean players for 3 years now while these guys never really made the effort to interact with the foreign scene. You have problems with arrogant players? It's okay to be arrogant as long as you have the skills to back it up. And it's okay to not be arrogant if you do not have the skill to back it up :D That's like saying it's not okay to not be arrogant even if you have the skills to back it up
Even if you have the skills to back it up, you need the marketing base to make it worth it for everyone. From FXOBoSs's blog, there appears to be disconnect between the Korean player's perception of their own marketability.
http://esportsillusion.wordpress.com/2013/10/03/starcraft-the-charity-korea/
The long and short of the blog is that Korean SC2 players are not used are not used to having to compete for the lime light in the Esports scene and are unwilling to go through efforts to make themselves marketable. He also disputes the claim that WCS is hurting SC2 in Korea and focuses more on the event runners.
It is an interesting perspective and one that does not heap blame on WCS when there is plenty of it to go around, from GOM, to OGN to the players themselves. It is a complex issue and something that can't be solved by just blaming WCS or claiming that it would all be ok if they brought BW back.
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On October 05 2013 21:20 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 21:13 riyanme wrote:
kespa and gom are trying their best to save kr esports Did not kespa tried it's best to get a nice grave yard for sc2 back to the times of WoL release?
before and on wol was out, we all know blizzard's "intervention" on kespa
blizzard nailed two on the coffin...
nowadays, we can see kespa trying to save kr sc2 scene.
back to start...
nevertheless, they acknowledge that marketing sc2 is........................................
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Everytime you feel bad for the state of SC2, just remember that things could be much... much worse.
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Yep, I stopped being as keen after WCS was introduced.
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When people talk about the popularity of SC2, something that is frequently said is that games that do not adopt the f2p model simply becomes less popular. But, games made by blizzard always sell well. Why is not one questioning something like, why isn't the game even retaining the bulk of the players who already bought this game before blaming the non f2p model?
At the same time, tournaments can only build on a good game. I don't see how a bad tournament can ever kill a game if it's genuinely good. People will always continue playing it and be interested to watch games because they can relate to it, irregardless of how terrible the tournament organisation is. It's probably true that a good tournament can bring in additional viewers. But, isn't it a more fundamental problem if you're losing spectators?
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On October 06 2013 15:05 Luppy1 wrote:
When people talk about the popularity of SC2, something that is frequently said is that games that do not adopt the f2p model simply becomes less popular. But, games made by blizzard always sell well. Why is not one questioning something like, why isn't the game even retaining the bulk of the players who already bought this game before blaming the non f2p model?
At the same time, tournaments can only build on a good game. I don't see how a bad tournament can ever kill a game if it's genuinely good. People will always continue playing it and be interested to watch games because they can relate to it, irregardless of how terrible the tournament organisation is. It's probably true that a good tournament can bring in additional viewers. But, isn't it a more fundamental problem if you're losing spectators?
To an extent, you're correct. The game is boring or stale. Sometimes the execution can be interesting or even amazing, but I only tend to see that kind of innovative play in team matches. It seems the bulk of the big tournaments are geared to 1v1 matches instead of team matches. I
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On October 06 2013 13:38 riyanme wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2013 21:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 05 2013 21:13 riyanme wrote:
kespa and gom are trying their best to save kr esports Did not kespa tried it's best to get a nice grave yard for sc2 back to the times of WoL release? before and on wol was out, we all know blizzard's "intervention" on kespa blizzard nailed two on the coffin... nowadays, we can see kespa trying to save kr sc2 scene. back to start... nevertheless, they acknowledge that marketing sc2 is........................................
If trying to prevent a release and later trying to take over by force and then bailing out after failing to do so is saving. Then I don't want to know what would happen if they tried to kill Sc2 haha.
Sigh I found it funny at WoL release that they dug their own grave, but didn't expected they would take Sc2 in Korea along with them.
Guess its like a balance patch, even if its still good if it got nerfed people avoid it or in that case korean sponsors.
On the bright side, BW is slowly coming back since Kespa has put their sights onto LoL. So maybe Sc2 will blossom as well once they are completely out of it, but it seems like they understand now that you need to stick with multiple games.
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EPT
