EPTThat is what this thread is starting to sound like.
Ladder Deflation and MMR Decay - Page 8
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
That is what this thread is starting to sound like. | ||
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anessie
180 Posts
On October 28 2013 00:22 Thieving Magpie wrote: "Why does blizzard demote me when I don't practice often" That is what this thread is starting to sound like. So you are saying people should settle for getting no challenge in sc2 just because they don't have the time to put in those 80 games to work their way back up? Someone that's been diamond/master for 2 years doesn't suddenly loose 75% of his skill by not playing for 2 months. So they shouldn't drop down 2 leagues as a punishment for having a huge unused bonus pool. I think the thread just explains what's going on with the matching making mess on ladder and some people feel the decay is to agressive (or the promotion to slow). | ||
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DusTerr
2520 Posts
On October 28 2013 07:15 anessie wrote: So you are saying people should settle for getting no challenge in sc2 just because they don't have the time to put in those 80 games to work their way back up? Someone that's been diamond/master for 2 years doesn't suddenly loose 75% of his skill by not playing for 2 months. So they shouldn't drop down 2 leagues as a punishment for having a huge unused bonus pool. I think the thread just explains what's going on with the matching making mess on ladder and some people feel the decay is to agressive (or the promotion to slow). People complain:s "I don't play because I took some time off and my opponents are too good now"... "I took time off and now my opponents are too easy" ... Maybe the decay could be adjusted a little better but at least this way it's easier to get back to where you should be (leaving games is not condoned and if you leave too many you then have the other problem anyway). Also, I think rank should require maintenance (you can't just hit GM and quit for the season, why should the other leagues be that much different?). | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On October 28 2013 08:43 DusTerr wrote: People complain:s "I don't play because I took some time off and my opponents are too good now"... "I took time off and now my opponents are too easy" ... Maybe the decay could be adjusted a little better but at least this way it's easier to get back to where you should be (leaving games is not condoned and if you leave too many you then have the other problem anyway). Also, I think rank should require maintenance (you can't just hit GM and quit for the season, why should the other leagues be that much different?). For me, it's not like I took a long break and came back rusty. I just play rarely (and very rarely if you count per 3on3 team I play on), maintaining a roughly constant (low) skill level. I would hope that bnet would pick up on our skill level after a while and it did that very well up until this change. Now, we almost always play against people of a significantly lower skill level. So in effect, what happens is that if you play seldom, you get to do little else than stomp newbs. It may sound fun to some, but for me it gets boring pretty quickly. Essentially it is ruining my sc2 experience a lot, not to mention the people we play against. :/ So it's more than just people taking breaks being affected. And yes, tweaks are needed. Any ideas? Less decay at low levels? Set decay rate depending on how often they play, so that teams/people that play rarely decay slow? | ||
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iPhoneAppz
United States37 Posts
On October 28 2013 17:30 Cascade wrote: So it's more than just people taking breaks being affected. And yes, tweaks are needed. Any ideas? Less decay at low levels? Set decay rate depending on how often they play, so that teams/people that play rarely decay slow? I think that the solution is to change the promotion system to consider the top league that you've ever attained in determining your MMR confidence. So, if you are placed in a league lower than that due to skill degradation, MMR deflation, or whatever other reason, you are more likely to get promoted faster than someone else. This way, you can move up faster and play fewer games against lesser opponents. | ||
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korona
1098 Posts
"Hidden skill ratings used for matchmaking and league placement will carry over from the previous season, though, so players who have completed placement matches in a previous season will only need to play one new placement match after Season 6 starts." So at least we know they are not going to do full reset for everyone to fix the situation. So players' MMR will remain where they are / have decayed in the end of the season. They did not provide any other information such as changes to decay mechanism or offset changes. I guess we will have to wait and see if there are any changes. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On October 28 2013 17:30 Cascade wrote: For me, it's not like I took a long break and came back rusty. I just play rarely (and very rarely if you count per 3on3 team I play on), maintaining a roughly constant (low) skill level. I would hope that bnet would pick up on our skill level after a while and it did that very well up until this change. Now, we almost always play against people of a significantly lower skill level. So in effect, what happens is that if you play seldom, you get to do little else than stomp newbs. It may sound fun to some, but for me it gets boring pretty quickly. Essentially it is ruining my sc2 experience a lot, not to mention the people we play against. :/ So it's more than just people taking breaks being affected. And yes, tweaks are needed. Any ideas? Less decay at low levels? Set decay rate depending on how often they play, so that teams/people that play rarely decay slow? As a small tweak, I would like to see that playing 2vs2, 3vs3, 4vs4 should slow down the decay in 1vs1, as you are still playing sc2 even though you are not participating in the 1vs1 ladder. The same holds true for the other combinations of course (playing 1vs1, 3vs3, 4vs4 should slow down the decay in 2vs2). I doubt that it will affect the ladder much, but I think the tweak makes sense and I see no reason not to include it. | ||
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metroid composite
Canada231 Posts
On November 04 2013 19:12 JustPassingBy wrote: As a small tweak, I would like to see that playing 2vs2, 3vs3, 4vs4 should slow down the decay in 1vs1, as you are still playing sc2 even though you are not participating in the 1vs1 ladder. The same holds true for the other combinations of course (playing 1vs1, 3vs3, 4vs4 should slow down the decay in 2vs2). I doubt that it will affect the ladder much, but I think the tweak makes sense and I see no reason not to include it. Yeah, this definitely. I imagine that across all the divisions I'm ranked in I have a good number of games this season. But you know, I have several 2v2 teams depending on who's online, several 3v3 teams depending on who's online, several 4v4 teams, some games played in peepmode, some games played in unranked, some games played against the computer where I just focus on larva injects and creep spread. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On November 04 2013 19:12 JustPassingBy wrote: As a small tweak, I would like to see that playing 2vs2, 3vs3, 4vs4 should slow down the decay in 1vs1, as you are still playing sc2 even though you are not participating in the 1vs1 ladder. The same holds true for the other combinations of course (playing 1vs1, 3vs3, 4vs4 should slow down the decay in 2vs2). I doubt that it will affect the ladder much, but I think the tweak makes sense and I see no reason not to include it. Sounds good to me. Would probably solve my problems at least. | ||
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
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SolidSMD
Belgium408 Posts
On November 04 2013 21:43 Fjodorov wrote: Ive just stopped taking note of what league my opponent is in. It doesnt say anything. I was top diamond in WoL as zerg and started playing sc2 again 2 weeks ago. now as terran. Got placed in gold and now im in plat, soon diamond. Im facing master players every once in a while and beating them most of the time but losing to some gold players and sometimes get crushed by some platinum dude with 200 apm. You just never know what level your opponent is at anymore. I can understand that alot of ppl are annoyed by this. This, same story for me, started laddering for first time in hots, placed in silver (as ex-master that blows my mind O_o). Of the 10 matches i played after that about half of them were vs ex-diamond/masters that were placed in silver/gold/plat, this system is just too funny. I feel bad for all legitimate silver/gold players that get stomped by superior opponents all the time. This scares off new players even more than the old system. | ||
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Eatme
Switzerland3919 Posts
EDIT: I know that the ladder lock dont affect my mmr drop. | ||
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Ctone23
United States1841 Posts
Granted, my skill is probably more on par with a platinum player now, but I can't help but feel a little shafted. I work full time now, and generally play SC2 on the weekends and sometimes during the week, although with the fatigue from work I usually don't because I don't want to tank my MMR, but it appears as though I tank it no matter what if I don't play the game a lot. The strange thing about it, is that I continue to play diamond league opponents, yet I have been demoted 3 straight seasons, this season getting demoted from top 8 platinum to gold.. Tough to find the motivation to ladder, not sure if anyone else feels that way.. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On November 05 2013 02:05 Eatme wrote: The silliest thing with this is that the bonus pool is an inactivity buff. But now they for some reason added ladder decay as well. And in prefect time to the ladder lock my sc2 computer broke down so I'll most likely drop down from every league until next season. EDIT: I know that the ladder lock dont affect my mmr drop. Its not an inactivity Bump, its a gauge. If you have a 60% winrate by the end of a season and 0 bonus pool, you'll be promoted. If you simply play three games and win 2 of them (66% winrate) you will not be promoted. You need to play enough games to eat up your bonus pool and end up with a 60% overall winrate. If you don't play enough to eat your bonus pool--it doesn't count. If you play often enough to eat your bonus pool and you win above 60%, you'll be promoted before the season is over. So no, it's not an inactivity buff. It's still stupid, but its not a buff in the strictest sense of the word. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
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anessie
180 Posts
On November 04 2013 18:43 korona wrote: Based on http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/11473451/ladder-season-5-now-locked-11-4-2013 So at least we know they are not going to do full reset for everyone to fix the situation. So players' MMR will remain where they are / have decayed in the end of the season. Seems like the same standard post they make every season lock. On November 05 2013 02:18 Ctone23 wrote: Tough to find the motivation to ladder, not sure if anyone else feels that way.. Exactly, unless you keep down the bonus pool number you'll get a penalty for it and probably end up demoted (aka placed conservatively) in the next season. Higher league = faster bonus pool points = required to play more games to keep up. After you get demoted you have to play like 50 games for a promotion again, even with a 75% win rate. Because you come across people in the same situation as yourself it's not evident to get higher win rates. Master/diamond level match-ups in gold league  At some point it's just normal to wonder why you bother with it. | ||
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Mendelfist
Sweden356 Posts
On November 05 2013 03:25 anessie wrote: Exactly, unless you keep down the bonus pool number you'll get a penalty for it and probably end up demoted (aka placed conservatively) in the next season. As far as I know bonus pool doesn't have anything to with ladder placement, except for grandmaster league. What's your source? | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On November 05 2013 03:59 Mendelfist wrote: As far as I know bonus pool doesn't have anything to with ladder placement, except for grandmaster league. What's your source? David Kim gave out a "number" for how many points it takes to get promoted by the end of a season. He said it early 2010. It was a dishonest number because to get that many points plus having zero bonus pool you needed to have about a 60% winrate otherwise you'd be promoted from winning too many games in a row. But since you're being forced into a 50% winrate by the ladder, that is when we get people "constantly matched with high level players" that roflstomp them. This is because the ladder doesn't really see "leagues" but instead see who is winning and who is not. People in hot streaks will play against others in hot streaks that are of similar MMR. If you're not at least playing often enough to whittle down your bonus pool then simply having a high winrate is not good enough and hence why you hear things such as "I dropped from masters and it took me a month/week to get back" or "I'm at 75% winrate and I still haven't been promoted." Now, a high enough winrate after a decent number of games will circumvent the bonus pool. Also, playing while you have 0 bonus pool will also skew the numbers. But he was making a comment mostly to those players who don't play often and telling them that so long as they use up their bonus pool and have a higher than 50% winrate, then they should get promoted each season. That way, people don't *need* to play 100 games a day, they just need to use up more bonus pool per X time than the bonus pool they earn at X time. (I think it was winning just a few games a day, but I'm not certain) | ||
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anessie
180 Posts
On November 05 2013 03:59 Mendelfist wrote: As far as I know bonus pool doesn't have anything to with ladder placement, except for grandmaster league. What's your source? Just deducting that from this topic and http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=423477 Being inactive = growing bonus pool = mmr decay? Plus personally getting demoted two leagues by having a 1750+ bonus pool at the end of previous season? | ||
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Ctone23
United States1841 Posts
On November 05 2013 03:25 anessie wrote: Higher league = faster bonus pool points = required to play more games to keep up. After you get demoted you have to play like 50 games for a promotion again, even with a 75% win rate. Because you come across people in the same situation as yourself it's not evident to get higher win rates. Master/diamond level match-ups in gold league At some point it's just normal to wonder why you bother with it. Well I love the game but it's definitely a bit frustrating. For me it's just too many games you have to play to get any sort of reward, but I can understand why Blizzard would want you to play more games, just something I cannot do as I work/travel during the week. | ||
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