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On October 25 2013 02:40 NukeD wrote:
^are you serious?
I had an impression you were a quallity poster but then you go on write that? Really?? Lol. That was terrible.
He has a point because constant action that's all he's looking at. Realistically, no one knows if that stuff would be OP now. Imagine if MKP didn't introduce Marine Splitting, how OP would banelings seem? Just as a 7RR seems stupidly OP in lower leagues, it's basically an auto loss for the Zerg in higher leagues.
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On October 25 2013 02:25 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 00:04 Squat wrote:On October 24 2013 23:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 24 2013 23:02 Squat wrote:On October 24 2013 22:58 Applesmack wrote:
This thread is basically full of delusional Brood War fanboys circlejerking about why Brood War is great and SC2 sucks. Blizzard should ignore everything said in it. Just look at the post history of most of these people and it will tell you all you need to know. There is no problem in SC2 outside of the fact that it is an RTS game and too hard for casuals, which it should be. Oh look, another one of those. I'm growing bored with berating people for this kind of idiocy, someone else do the honours. He is right though. On other hand it is hard to deny that SC2 has it's problem. Main one: we are not in fucking 90s and early 00s anymore. But yeah. there are some problems within the game. No he's not. He is so completely fucking wrong it's not even funny, and it hurts my brain when people don't get how or why. He is claiming that there is just whining for the sake of whining, as if the complaints are made just for the sake of being a little bitch and hating SC2. Newsflash, if we hated SC2 we would give two shits about what happened to the game, just like I have zero opinion on LoL, because the game means nothing to me. The complaints exist because we want the game to become better, to be worthy of the incredible community and pro gamers that it has, because we care. The BW analogies exist because it is the closest frame of reference and also was fucking amazing. To say it's just BW fanboyism and we all just hate Sc2 and wish it was BW is so incredible inane and simplistic, I don't even know where to begin. If you're going to disagree, fine, but shit like that is what just drives me crazy, completely dishonest reasoning and obnoxious fatuity. If the community had not voiced any concern we would still be playing on Jungle Basin and close spawn Lost Temple, and 1 supply roaches would still be in the game. Constantly bringing up how much better BW was is not efficient whatsoever. You can use all the fancy words you want but the bottom line is that Blizzard is done with BW and is looking to improve on SC2.
Still not getting through then, I'll try again. No one wants a re-skin of brood war, we want a better Sc2, and because the game has severe structural flaws, it's hard to see how that happens unless some drastic changes are made. Polish a turd and all that.
The only real comparison that makes any sense is BW. People aren't talking about how BW as a singular entity was better, we are comparing individual features between the games.
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On October 25 2013 02:56 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 02:40 NukeD wrote:
^are you serious?
I had an impression you were a quallity poster but then you go on write that? Really?? Lol. That was terrible. He has a point because constant action that's all he's looking at. Realistically, no one knows if that stuff would be OP now. Imagine if MKP didn't introduce Marine Splitting, how OP would banelings seem? Just as a 7RR seems stupidly OP in lower leagues, it's basically an auto loss for the Zerg in higher leagues.
I was talking about the part of his post where he claims people were against those things.
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I don't see sc2 as having any meta smashing changes like BW did. That I think helped keep it strong/growing for so many years. It started off slow, super slow, and then someone comes along and says hey did you know you can macro? And so on. Couple years later and there's someone twice as fast as that first guy who broke the meta.
The game just can't be as back and forth as bw was. Otherwise we'd see it by now. You absolutely cannot argue that since BW took years to develop and change its meta, sc2 will also need that time.
The fact that we already know how to maximize micro, macro, balancing the two with all the other skills you can in an RTS. We figured that shit out years ago. So that's it. New units = new looking death balls but you will never see someone so fast at the game compared to previous players that he is accused of cheating even when it's being televised. There are no mega cool micro tricks that can revolutionize the game.
Like OP said, Battlenet 2.0 overall is weird. The ladder focus thing is weird too. What made Blizzard think we all wanted to grind 1v1's all day? My friends and I never played 1v1 ladder in bw. Not once. We played 3v3 zc nr mm+1, customs like lurker/tower/corsair defence and bgh on and off for almost 10 years. Didn't even know there was a 1v1 ladder scene, let alone millions of dollars being poured into its competitive scene. Two of those ten friends played ladder in sc2. The rest had zero interest in it. Maybe not in Korea but is it a stretch to say most people would rather have a sick ass custom scene rather than a 1v1 scene? Obviously here at Teamliquid the scene is 1v1 dominant but how about the rest? Would love to know where Blizzard got that idea from. At least in my corner of the internet, that's what we wanted most out of sc2. And trivia bots.
On a personal note, 3v3 zc nr mm was built around max armies fighting max armies. Sucked that the map maxed but what can you do. At least there was back and forth fighting the whole way. One army wiped out? That's cool, make another. You lost positioning in the middle but the game isn't over. Yet. Dirty recall in the back of your base? Damn, lost all your miners but you have 30k in the bank so it's not the end. There was always room for comebacks. And you had a ton of choices of compositions that worked. Ah well.
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On October 24 2013 23:17 Smackzilla wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 22:58 Applesmack wrote:
This thread is basically full of delusional Brood War fanboys circlejerking about why Brood War is great and SC2 sucks. Blizzard should ignore everything said in it. Just look at the post history of most of these people and it will tell you all you need to know. There is no problem in SC2 outside of the fact that it is an RTS game and too hard for casuals, which it should be. This. If broodwar with pretty graphics came out in 2010, LoL would hand BW its ass too. Face it, F2P mobas are going to have broader international appeal than pay-to-play RTSs.
There has been the vocal camp since the beginning of WoL just wanting the game to be more like BW. Then more recently, after the lime light of SC2 esports wore off, there is the camp that wants *something* changed to make the game more popular. These are opposite goals as making the game more like BW will only push it to be a Korean exclusive which is probably where it is going anyways. At a slight distance SC2 is hardly different from BW at all in terms of how it is presented and what it demands of professional players.
I feel the community is split and doesn't really know what they want from the game as a whole, and Blizzard is in the middle trying make the game successful and keep as many people. The Blizzard MOBA is a really good thing for SC2 as it will allow Blizzard to pursue the mass popularity of DOTA and LoL while keeping Starcraft Starcraft.
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On October 25 2013 02:56 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 02:25 Ctone23 wrote:On October 25 2013 00:04 Squat wrote:On October 24 2013 23:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 24 2013 23:02 Squat wrote:On October 24 2013 22:58 Applesmack wrote:
This thread is basically full of delusional Brood War fanboys circlejerking about why Brood War is great and SC2 sucks. Blizzard should ignore everything said in it. Just look at the post history of most of these people and it will tell you all you need to know. There is no problem in SC2 outside of the fact that it is an RTS game and too hard for casuals, which it should be. Oh look, another one of those. I'm growing bored with berating people for this kind of idiocy, someone else do the honours. He is right though. On other hand it is hard to deny that SC2 has it's problem. Main one: we are not in fucking 90s and early 00s anymore. But yeah. there are some problems within the game. No he's not. He is so completely fucking wrong it's not even funny, and it hurts my brain when people don't get how or why. He is claiming that there is just whining for the sake of whining, as if the complaints are made just for the sake of being a little bitch and hating SC2. Newsflash, if we hated SC2 we would give two shits about what happened to the game, just like I have zero opinion on LoL, because the game means nothing to me. The complaints exist because we want the game to become better, to be worthy of the incredible community and pro gamers that it has, because we care. The BW analogies exist because it is the closest frame of reference and also was fucking amazing. To say it's just BW fanboyism and we all just hate Sc2 and wish it was BW is so incredible inane and simplistic, I don't even know where to begin. If you're going to disagree, fine, but shit like that is what just drives me crazy, completely dishonest reasoning and obnoxious fatuity. If the community had not voiced any concern we would still be playing on Jungle Basin and close spawn Lost Temple, and 1 supply roaches would still be in the game. Constantly bringing up how much better BW was is not efficient whatsoever. You can use all the fancy words you want but the bottom line is that Blizzard is done with BW and is looking to improve on SC2. Still not getting through then, I'll try again. No one wants a re-skin of brood war, we want a better Sc2, and because the game has severe structural flaws, it's hard to see how that happens unless some drastic changes are made. Polish a turd and all that. The only real comparison that makes any sense is BW. People aren't talking about how BW as a singular entity was better, we are comparing individual features between the games.
No, you are not getting it. BW and SC2 are completely different game designs.
I don't need to say anything else.
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On October 24 2013 17:42 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 05:11 PhoenixLight wrote:On October 24 2013 04:56 Squat wrote:On October 24 2013 04:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 24 2013 04:47 Garmer wrote:
this game is too late to be fixed, sc2 biggest problem, is the game itself I dare to say no. And i am sure in this until another mechanics-heavy RTS overtakes it. No one makes RTS games, at least not with esports in mind. SC2 has no serious competition, Blizzard can afford to maintain mediocrity and still be on top, it's one of the problems. Valve and Riot are busting their asses to make sure their game is constantly improving and are not afraid to implement big changes, because they are directly competing with one another. Competition breeds excellence, hegemony breeds sloth and complacency. Day 9 lover of starcraft is making a RTS game with esports in mind. Hopefully it will kick sc2's ass, so blizzard won't be so full of themselves and acknowledged that their game is far from being even close to done. The competitive RTS genere really needs some love cause as long as sc2 remains top dog people get all defensive and refuse to even imagine that there is a better way of doing things. Also, someone should host SC2BW tourney and get some of the top bw players on it. Is there something massively different about the mod that is preventing people from playing it? I lost much of my respect for day9 (and the other community figures like Artosis, Tasteless...) when they just accepted the swich to sc2 without saying a word about how much the game is lacking compared to bw. I know that they had huge economic incentments to do that, but for me they lost a lot of credibility.
Watch the first five minutes of this daily: http://blip.tv/day9tv/d9d-0099-sc2-jinro-vs-naruto-tvt-steppes-of-war-3662905 it talks a bit about why Day9 was happy to have SC2 come out.
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Also, check out the new dota patch, it has like a million different changes. http://www.dotacinema.com/news/679-update
I think that's very exciting for the playerbase, personally I would always delight in patches in WoW and WC3. It's a pity that patches in Starcraft 2 are controversial. With good reason, mind you, see the recent iloveoov interview for more on this, but I think it would be more fun to have a game which is accommodating for patches. In Starcraft 2 there are no good decisions: if you patch the game the integrity of the competitive scene is in question, but if you don't patch the game the integ... etc. (see 2012&infestor)
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On October 25 2013 03:28 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 02:56 Squat wrote:On October 25 2013 02:25 Ctone23 wrote:On October 25 2013 00:04 Squat wrote:On October 24 2013 23:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 24 2013 23:02 Squat wrote:On October 24 2013 22:58 Applesmack wrote:
This thread is basically full of delusional Brood War fanboys circlejerking about why Brood War is great and SC2 sucks. Blizzard should ignore everything said in it. Just look at the post history of most of these people and it will tell you all you need to know. There is no problem in SC2 outside of the fact that it is an RTS game and too hard for casuals, which it should be. Oh look, another one of those. I'm growing bored with berating people for this kind of idiocy, someone else do the honours. He is right though. On other hand it is hard to deny that SC2 has it's problem. Main one: we are not in fucking 90s and early 00s anymore. But yeah. there are some problems within the game. No he's not. He is so completely fucking wrong it's not even funny, and it hurts my brain when people don't get how or why. He is claiming that there is just whining for the sake of whining, as if the complaints are made just for the sake of being a little bitch and hating SC2. Newsflash, if we hated SC2 we would give two shits about what happened to the game, just like I have zero opinion on LoL, because the game means nothing to me. The complaints exist because we want the game to become better, to be worthy of the incredible community and pro gamers that it has, because we care. The BW analogies exist because it is the closest frame of reference and also was fucking amazing. To say it's just BW fanboyism and we all just hate Sc2 and wish it was BW is so incredible inane and simplistic, I don't even know where to begin. If you're going to disagree, fine, but shit like that is what just drives me crazy, completely dishonest reasoning and obnoxious fatuity. If the community had not voiced any concern we would still be playing on Jungle Basin and close spawn Lost Temple, and 1 supply roaches would still be in the game. Constantly bringing up how much better BW was is not efficient whatsoever. You can use all the fancy words you want but the bottom line is that Blizzard is done with BW and is looking to improve on SC2. Still not getting through then, I'll try again. No one wants a re-skin of brood war, we want a better Sc2, and because the game has severe structural flaws, it's hard to see how that happens unless some drastic changes are made. Polish a turd and all that. The only real comparison that makes any sense is BW. People aren't talking about how BW as a singular entity was better, we are comparing individual features between the games. No, you are not getting it. BW and SC2 are completely different game designs. I don't need to say anything else.
Completely different? In both games you collect resources, build army & infrastucture and fight your opponents army.
While they are of course wildlly different games, there are the core similiarities that can be used to compare them.
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On October 25 2013 03:28 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 02:56 Squat wrote:On October 25 2013 02:25 Ctone23 wrote:On October 25 2013 00:04 Squat wrote:On October 24 2013 23:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 24 2013 23:02 Squat wrote:On October 24 2013 22:58 Applesmack wrote:
This thread is basically full of delusional Brood War fanboys circlejerking about why Brood War is great and SC2 sucks. Blizzard should ignore everything said in it. Just look at the post history of most of these people and it will tell you all you need to know. There is no problem in SC2 outside of the fact that it is an RTS game and too hard for casuals, which it should be. Oh look, another one of those. I'm growing bored with berating people for this kind of idiocy, someone else do the honours. He is right though. On other hand it is hard to deny that SC2 has it's problem. Main one: we are not in fucking 90s and early 00s anymore. But yeah. there are some problems within the game. No he's not. He is so completely fucking wrong it's not even funny, and it hurts my brain when people don't get how or why. He is claiming that there is just whining for the sake of whining, as if the complaints are made just for the sake of being a little bitch and hating SC2. Newsflash, if we hated SC2 we would give two shits about what happened to the game, just like I have zero opinion on LoL, because the game means nothing to me. The complaints exist because we want the game to become better, to be worthy of the incredible community and pro gamers that it has, because we care. The BW analogies exist because it is the closest frame of reference and also was fucking amazing. To say it's just BW fanboyism and we all just hate Sc2 and wish it was BW is so incredible inane and simplistic, I don't even know where to begin. If you're going to disagree, fine, but shit like that is what just drives me crazy, completely dishonest reasoning and obnoxious fatuity. If the community had not voiced any concern we would still be playing on Jungle Basin and close spawn Lost Temple, and 1 supply roaches would still be in the game. Constantly bringing up how much better BW was is not efficient whatsoever. You can use all the fancy words you want but the bottom line is that Blizzard is done with BW and is looking to improve on SC2. Still not getting through then, I'll try again. No one wants a re-skin of brood war, we want a better Sc2, and because the game has severe structural flaws, it's hard to see how that happens unless some drastic changes are made. Polish a turd and all that. The only real comparison that makes any sense is BW. People aren't talking about how BW as a singular entity was better, we are comparing individual features between the games. No, you are not getting it. BW and SC2 are completely different game designs. I don't need to say anything else.
Cool story.
Great arguments, I love how you declared that you can spout random assertions and then claim you don't need to back them up and say anything else, you must be really smart. If you are quite done dazzling us with your devastating debating skills, can we go back to trying to analyze and potentially try to theorycraft about problems with the game?
Completely different? In both games you collect resources, build army & infrastucture and fight your opponents army.
While they are of course wildlly different games, there are the core similiarities that can be used to compare them.
No dude, he just told us he doesn't need to say anything else and that we just don't get it, clearly we cannot dispute that.
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On October 24 2013 18:07 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 17:42 Elroi wrote:On October 24 2013 05:11 PhoenixLight wrote:On October 24 2013 04:56 Squat wrote:On October 24 2013 04:49 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 24 2013 04:47 Garmer wrote:
this game is too late to be fixed, sc2 biggest problem, is the game itself I dare to say no. And i am sure in this until another mechanics-heavy RTS overtakes it. No one makes RTS games, at least not with esports in mind. SC2 has no serious competition, Blizzard can afford to maintain mediocrity and still be on top, it's one of the problems. Valve and Riot are busting their asses to make sure their game is constantly improving and are not afraid to implement big changes, because they are directly competing with one another. Competition breeds excellence, hegemony breeds sloth and complacency. Day 9 lover of starcraft is making a RTS game with esports in mind. Hopefully it will kick sc2's ass, so blizzard won't be so full of themselves and acknowledged that their game is far from being even close to done. The competitive RTS genere really needs some love cause as long as sc2 remains top dog people get all defensive and refuse to even imagine that there is a better way of doing things. Also, someone should host SC2BW tourney and get some of the top bw players on it. Is there something massively different about the mod that is preventing people from playing it? I lost much of my respect for day9 (and the other community figures like Artosis, Tasteless...) when they just accepted the swich to sc2 without saying a word about how much the game is lacking compared to bw. I know that they had huge economic incentments to do that, but for me they lost a lot of credibility. Yeah I never understood why some of those prominent community figures never just went ahead and pointed out some of the glarring issues SC2 has. I dont think its greed or anything silly like that, I think they just subconsciously interpreted their newfound positions as sort of a mediator between the devs and the community. Or maybe a true passion to get this esport thing rolling whatever the game may be. I am absolutelly convinced they have not been blind all this time to some of the poor design choices the devs had incorporated (sans Artosis, hes a puzzle to me). It could have done more good than harm I think, but whatever, no point in talking what could have been or not. EDIT: Just wanted to note that I do not share the views of the person I quotted regarding the "respect" I have towards day9 and others. They are extraordinarry individuals and I deeply support their devotion in what they do.
There are plenty of people who love StarCraft 2 for what it is. These community figures you talk about earned that status by devoting the last three years of their life to the game. Of course they love it, or they wouldn't have chosen that path. There's no conspiracy here. They just like the game a lot more than the people complaining about it do.
And they're not blind to problems that people have with the game, nor have they been silent about them. Day[9] has his famous "Frisbee vs Baseball" daily where he talked at length about unit micro and how he'd like to see the game evolve. Artosis talks about problems with SC2 all the time on Meta, asking his guests questions like how they'd improve WCS, or why it seems so hard for Protoss to consistently place in the highest level tournaments.
They're well aware of all the common complaints surrounding the game. They either disagree that your particular complaints are actually problems, or they've decided that even with those flaws, StarCraft 2 is one of the best games around.
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On October 25 2013 03:28 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 02:56 Squat wrote:On October 25 2013 02:25 Ctone23 wrote:On October 25 2013 00:04 Squat wrote:On October 24 2013 23:20 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 24 2013 23:02 Squat wrote:On October 24 2013 22:58 Applesmack wrote:
This thread is basically full of delusional Brood War fanboys circlejerking about why Brood War is great and SC2 sucks. Blizzard should ignore everything said in it. Just look at the post history of most of these people and it will tell you all you need to know. There is no problem in SC2 outside of the fact that it is an RTS game and too hard for casuals, which it should be. Oh look, another one of those. I'm growing bored with berating people for this kind of idiocy, someone else do the honours. He is right though. On other hand it is hard to deny that SC2 has it's problem. Main one: we are not in fucking 90s and early 00s anymore. But yeah. there are some problems within the game. No he's not. He is so completely fucking wrong it's not even funny, and it hurts my brain when people don't get how or why. He is claiming that there is just whining for the sake of whining, as if the complaints are made just for the sake of being a little bitch and hating SC2. Newsflash, if we hated SC2 we would give two shits about what happened to the game, just like I have zero opinion on LoL, because the game means nothing to me. The complaints exist because we want the game to become better, to be worthy of the incredible community and pro gamers that it has, because we care. The BW analogies exist because it is the closest frame of reference and also was fucking amazing. To say it's just BW fanboyism and we all just hate Sc2 and wish it was BW is so incredible inane and simplistic, I don't even know where to begin. If you're going to disagree, fine, but shit like that is what just drives me crazy, completely dishonest reasoning and obnoxious fatuity. If the community had not voiced any concern we would still be playing on Jungle Basin and close spawn Lost Temple, and 1 supply roaches would still be in the game. Constantly bringing up how much better BW was is not efficient whatsoever. You can use all the fancy words you want but the bottom line is that Blizzard is done with BW and is looking to improve on SC2. Still not getting through then, I'll try again. No one wants a re-skin of brood war, we want a better Sc2, and because the game has severe structural flaws, it's hard to see how that happens unless some drastic changes are made. Polish a turd and all that. The only real comparison that makes any sense is BW. People aren't talking about how BW as a singular entity was better, we are comparing individual features between the games. No, you are not getting it. BW and SC2 are completely different game designs. I don't need to say anything else.
I actually kind of wish they were more different designs, but they are not. SC2 is a bit stuck in the middle where it tries to live on the strengths of its predecessor, but doesn't manage to replicate them all the way. Meanwhile it somewhat fails to build up its own characteristics and identity. Often the games are decided by unit compositions, timing attacks and engagement setups, but SC2 does very little to expand their diversity and depth.
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On October 25 2013 03:01 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 02:56 Chaggi wrote:On October 25 2013 02:40 NukeD wrote:
^are you serious?
I had an impression you were a quallity poster but then you go on write that? Really?? Lol. That was terrible. He has a point because constant action that's all he's looking at. Realistically, no one knows if that stuff would be OP now. Imagine if MKP didn't introduce Marine Splitting, how OP would banelings seem? Just as a 7RR seems stupidly OP in lower leagues, it's basically an auto loss for the Zerg in higher leagues. I was talking about the part of his post where he claims people were against those things.
I was specifically trying to point out that people are not looking for "action" or "back and forth play" but, very specifically, a game play experience where they are in control of at least their responsibilities of the game and having this responsibilities feel meritorious to have.
SC2 already had the state where there was early game action in all matchups. Constant back and forth, units used in all tech tiers.
But it didn't feel right, it felt lacking.
They thought it was because expansions were too hard to get, that early game units too strong. So Blizz gave them that. The maps ballooned, defensive abilities skyrocketed. But people aren't liking it either.
Now people wants for more action, less "15 minute no rush," more back and forth. Taken literally, that will simply lead back to 2010 SC2 (A time period I actually do miss since I'd rather have OP strats than no-rush strats)
What's missing from SC2 is not the amount of action or the amount of waiting around. And no, I don't know what that *thing* is that they're missing. No one does right now, but they feel it gone. Like an empty blackness where their ladder points are supposed to be.
So people bring in anecdotes "In BW it was like this" or "I hate the lack of action" or "too difficult to come back" or "one fight wins the game" etc...
But they're all incomplete since at one time or another they were all present in SC2. High damage siege tanks? nerfed in the beta. Lurkers? Were too underpowered in Blizz's testing. High DPS mobile Protoss Units? Amulet nerf. Etc...
When those things people say they want was present it got nerfed to oblivion. Because it's not really what people want. The "BW fanboys" are not haters. They're not even trying to make the game like BW. But when humans don't know what's missing they reach back from their past; it's natural. SC2 feels like its lacking "something" and we don't know what that is--and its killing us not knowing.
The maps will baloon, then shrink, units will be buffed, then nerfed, etc.... None of that will fix things.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 25 2013 05:00 Thieving Magpie wrote:
What's missing from SC2 is not the amount of action or the amount of waiting around. And no, I don't know what that *thing* is that they're missing. No one does right now, but they feel it gone. Like an empty blackness where their ladder points are supposed to be.
Can only agree with this. Yes, it is pure truth.
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On October 25 2013 05:00 Thieving Magpie wrote:
What's missing from SC2 is not the amount of action or the amount of waiting around. And no, I don't know what that *thing* is that they're missing. No one does right now, but they feel it gone. Like an empty blackness where their ladder points are supposed to be.
Well, the "only" thing I'm missing is that I can really switch up my play - in a macro way. There are a few allins/pushes that you can do and that play out very differently, but apart from that, there is basically 1playstyle per non-mirror matchup. And that's I think were a lot of people get frustrated, since you always do/see the same. No matter how well that plays out (TvZ), at the end of the day the conclusion mostly is: "he played very well". Not: "omg, this was so cool, I want to replicate that so bad, quick, hit the ladder!" (like back in the days when Byun did ghost expos against protoss, leenock did roach/infestor rushes against Terran and Mvp just built BCs no matter which matchup)
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On October 25 2013 05:36 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 05:00 Thieving Magpie wrote:
What's missing from SC2 is not the amount of action or the amount of waiting around. And no, I don't know what that *thing* is that they're missing. No one does right now, but they feel it gone. Like an empty blackness where their ladder points are supposed to be.
Well, the "only" thing I'm missing is that I can really switch up my play - in a macro way. There are a few allins/pushes that you can do and that play out very differently, but apart from that, there is basically 1playstyle per non-mirror matchup. And that's I think were a lot of people get frustrated, since you always do/see the same. No matter how well that plays out (TvZ), at the end of the day the conclusion mostly is: "he played very well". Not: "omg, this was so cool, I want to replicate that so bad, quick, hit the ladder!" (like back in the days when Byun did ghost expos against protoss, leenock did roach/infestor rushes against Terran and Mvp just built BCs no matter which matchup)
Standard macro play (expanding/teching as much as possible while building as few units as possible) is the only sensible long term strategy in a macro/calculations RTS like SC2 because the game's economy hits you too hard if you deviate from this path. And the strength of mid/late game AOE hardcounters basically restrict players to a fraction of their available units. Add in the fact that the game is over 3 years old, has only seen light updates from Blizzard, and that players across the world have been studying replays, VODs, and calculating builds on computers, it's not hard to see why every game ends up looking the same.
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On October 25 2013 03:26 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 23:17 Smackzilla wrote:On October 24 2013 22:58 Applesmack wrote:
This thread is basically full of delusional Brood War fanboys circlejerking about why Brood War is great and SC2 sucks. Blizzard should ignore everything said in it. Just look at the post history of most of these people and it will tell you all you need to know. There is no problem in SC2 outside of the fact that it is an RTS game and too hard for casuals, which it should be. This. If broodwar with pretty graphics came out in 2010, LoL would hand BW its ass too. Face it, F2P mobas are going to have broader international appeal than pay-to-play RTSs. There has been the vocal camp since the beginning of WoL just wanting the game to be more like BW. Then more recently, after the lime light of SC2 esports wore off, there is the camp that wants *something* changed to make the game more popular. These are opposite goals as making the game more like BW will only push it to be a Korean exclusive which is probably where it is going anyways. At a slight distance SC2 is hardly different from BW at all in terms of how it is presented and what it demands of professional players. I feel the community is split and doesn't really know what they want from the game as a whole, and Blizzard is in the middle trying make the game successful and keep as many people. The Blizzard MOBA is a really good thing for SC2 as it will allow Blizzard to pursue the mass popularity of DOTA and LoL while keeping Starcraft Starcraft.
I feel absolutely no guilt calling the game on its shortcomings since the beginning of WoL. We've seen those shortcomings play themselves out over several cycles of WoL's life let alone SC2 as a whole. It won't be just a korean exclusive if the core game play is better. Right now foreign players are by in large marginalized. That's not the issue. Making it so the core spectator experience is more interesting is important.
That and somehow fixing the fucked up miss Battlenet 2.0 for custom games and enabling BGH type games.
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On October 25 2013 06:17 jdsowa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 05:36 Big J wrote:On October 25 2013 05:00 Thieving Magpie wrote:
What's missing from SC2 is not the amount of action or the amount of waiting around. And no, I don't know what that *thing* is that they're missing. No one does right now, but they feel it gone. Like an empty blackness where their ladder points are supposed to be.
Well, the "only" thing I'm missing is that I can really switch up my play - in a macro way. There are a few allins/pushes that you can do and that play out very differently, but apart from that, there is basically 1playstyle per non-mirror matchup. And that's I think were a lot of people get frustrated, since you always do/see the same. No matter how well that plays out (TvZ), at the end of the day the conclusion mostly is: "he played very well". Not: "omg, this was so cool, I want to replicate that so bad, quick, hit the ladder!" (like back in the days when Byun did ghost expos against protoss, leenock did roach/infestor rushes against Terran and Mvp just built BCs no matter which matchup) Standard macro play (expanding/teching as much as possible while building as few units as possible) is the only sensible long term strategy in a macro/calculations RTS like SC2 because the game's economy hits you too hard if you deviate from this path. And the strength of mid/late game AOE hardcounters basically restrict players to a fraction of their available units. Add in the fact that the game is over 3 years old, has only seen light updates from Blizzard, and that players across the world have been studying replays, VODs, and calculating builds on computers, it's not hard to see why every game ends up looking the same.
yeah, but that does not contradict that there could be a greater variety of possible compositions and "as few units as possible" does not mean that there cannot be/is not certain amount of "standard pressure" play in the game.
About the AoE hardcounters, I actually think it's quite the other way around. Seeing which compositions are viable in the late/end game - depending on the matchup: MMMVG/MMMM, MLB(+Ultra), Swarm Hosts (Locusts) - many of them are to a big degree singlefire/mass unit based and AoE hardcounters can't keep them in check.
Imo the reason for this lack of diversity is simply not as much of a "design problem", but very simply a lack of unit balance against each other. There are some clear unit choices in the matchups since certain units are just much better - banelingbased play > roachbased play, Mutaliskbased play>Infestorbased play, marine based play > tankbased play, Colossusbased play>Carrierbased play etc, etc, etc. At the end of the day I think there are just a lot of units that dominate certain matchups too much. And a lot of it has to do with the unit/balance changes in HotS.
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Oh look @EGiNcontroL was on tv in Toronto this morning! Too bad there was no TL banner because they don't care about the game. Just them selves.
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On October 25 2013 23:27 Zadien wrote:
Oh look @EGiNcontroL was on tv in Toronto this morning! Too bad there was no TL banner because they don't care about the game. Just them selves.
why the fuck would someone who represents EG market for TL?
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On October 25 2013 23:30 nkr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2013 23:27 Zadien wrote:
Oh look @EGiNcontroL was on tv in Toronto this morning! Too bad there was no TL banner because they don't care about the game. Just them selves. why the fuck would someone who represents EG market for TL?
TL more then just a team.
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EPT
