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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
On October 24 2013 04:47 Garmer wrote: this game is too late to be fixed, sc2 biggest problem, is the game itself I dare to say no. And i am sure in this until another mechanics-heavy RTS overtakes it. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On October 24 2013 04:49 lolfail9001 wrote: I dare to say no. And i am sure in this until another mechanics-heavy RTS overtakes it. What will probably be sc3 :D | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On October 24 2013 04:49 lolfail9001 wrote: I dare to say no. And i am sure in this until another mechanics-heavy RTS overtakes it. No one makes RTS games, at least not with esports in mind. SC2 has no serious competition, Blizzard can afford to maintain mediocrity and still be on top, it's one of the problems. Valve and Riot are busting their asses to make sure their game is constantly improving and are not afraid to implement big changes, because they are directly competing with one another. Competition breeds excellence, hegemony breeds sloth and complacency. | ||
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Bacillus
Finland1880 Posts
On October 24 2013 02:33 lolfail9001 wrote: You use games of low tier (yes, relatively low tier) foreigners are prove of statement. Sorry, but i actually found Rain vs Soulkey game 1 pretty good and it had SHs-BLs-festors in it. Was not any bit boring though. And yes, the only real fault of Blizzard is not removing Akilon from map pool. I don't think it's the end of the world or the main issue of SC2, but some other games manage to provide much more enjoyable games even when the competition isn't world class. Other games might get more raw, reckless and wild and as a result be enjoyable in their own way. Meanwhile SC2 often becomes just less impressive and more stale when the players aren't world class. | ||
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PhoenixLight
43 Posts
On October 24 2013 04:56 Squat wrote: No one makes RTS games, at least not with esports in mind. SC2 has no serious competition, Blizzard can afford to maintain mediocrity and still be on top, it's one of the problems. Valve and Riot are busting their asses to make sure their game is constantly improving and are not afraid to implement big changes, because they are directly competing with one another. Competition breeds excellence, hegemony breeds sloth and complacency. Day 9 lover of starcraft is making a RTS game with esports in mind. Hopefully it will kick sc2's ass, so blizzard won't be so full of themselves and acknowledged that their game is far from being even close to done. The competitive RTS genere really needs some love cause as long as sc2 remains top dog people get all defensive and refuse to even imagine that there is a better way of doing things. Also, someone should host SC2BW tourney and get some of the top bw players on it. Is there something massively different about the mod that is preventing people from playing it? | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
On October 24 2013 05:10 Bacillus wrote: I don't think it's the end of the world or the main issue of SC2, but some other games manage to provide much more enjoyable games even when the competition isn't world class. Other games might get more raw, reckless and wild and as a result be enjoyable in their own way. Meanwhile SC2 often becomes just less impressive and more stale when the players aren't world class. SC2 and especially playing good games in it is much harder than everyone thinks. Granted it is kinda less demanding mechanically. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40186 Posts
On October 24 2013 05:11 PhoenixLight wrote: Day 9 lover of starcraft is making a RTS game with esports in mind. Hopefully it will kick sc2's ass, so blizzard won't be so full of themselves and acknowledged that their game is far from being even close to done. The competitive RTS genere really needs some love cause as long as sc2 remains top dog people get all defensive and refuse to even imagine that there is a better way of doing things. Also, someone should host SC2BW tourney and get some of the top bw players on it. Is there something massively different about the mod that is preventing people from playing it? Day9 already made an error: the company he designs games for plans to make it on WebGL or some crap like that. SC2BW has one thing: while it copies stats, pathing is still less retarded. | ||
NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
On September 25 2013 14:31 Incognoto wrote: No, you fix that by having an actual good game where you can't lose to less than 5 units. This includes: banelings (bust) hellions (killing drones) banshees (less now than in WoL) DT widow mines any kind of cheese (cheese is just a shit gimmick that shouldn't be a part of any rts) coin flips, etc this is because blizzard likes big explosions and it's so EASY to LOSE so many units and/or workers in 3 seconds. the game is just overall badly designed, blizzard think they know their shit but they don't, so you have ridiculously broken things like force-fields (because they don't understand how important good positioning is) and warp gates (because fuck defender's advantage? fuck using queues to macro properly?), hell i could go on. the game is fun if you have no idea what you're doing, THAT's the big problem. is it possible to be good at this game? yes. you have to know all the random bullshit that can be thrown at you, how to react, and then you have to know what kind of bullshit you can throw at your opponent. even at the highest level, this applies (TLo vs lucifron wcs eu season 1?, maru vs innovation, etc). that's what's so fucking stupid. there's no S in this RTS. this is an RTB You think cheese is bad? that's quite hilarious, cheese can be very entertaining especially in close series, if it happened every game that wouldn't be good but it doesn't so it's fine imo. Starcraft has a risk and reward system, you play greedy and your opponent plays standard you are ahead, your opponent does an all-in while you are playing greedy and the allin has a better chance of working. Having actions that happen fast where you can lose if you aren't paying attention raises the overall skill level, however what it can also do is make things slightly luck based where if you look away for a second you can lose where as if you saw it right away you take 0 damage this is a good mechanic and makes things interesting. It's not "random bullshit" | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
On October 24 2013 04:07 Squat wrote: WoW's biggest problem as a spectator event was always that it required a rather high level of expertise to be able to understand what the fuck was going on, let alone appreciate the finer points of gameplay. To anyone else it looked like random green bars jumping up and down and a dwarf with a nice beard behind some boxes. I think the WoW type of e-sports is pretty great though, since you can somewhat respect the ability to complete raids while undergeared with none of the strategies known yet, but there is no real way to monetize it outside of sponsors and it doesn't discourage people from playing the game themselves. It's just this impressive achievement that contributes to the community feeling. On October 24 2013 05:11 PhoenixLight wrote: Day 9 lover of starcraft is making a RTS game with esports in mind. Hopefully it will kick sc2's ass, so blizzard won't be so full of themselves and acknowledged that their game is far from being even close to done. The competitive RTS genere really needs some love cause as long as sc2 remains top dog people get all defensive and refuse to even imagine that there is a better way of doing things. Let's be cynical and say that there is no way that Day[9], a person without any development experience who can't even work full-time on the project, is capable of creating a great RTS game. He's no more qualified for this job than any random intelligent person. | ||
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xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
On October 24 2013 05:11 PhoenixLight wrote: Day 9 lover of starcraft is making a RTS game with esports in mind. Hopefully it will kick sc2's ass, so blizzard won't be so full of themselves and acknowledged that their game is far from being even close to done. The competitive RTS genere really needs some love cause as long as sc2 remains top dog people get all defensive and refuse to even imagine that there is a better way of doing things. Also, someone should host SC2BW tourney and get some of the top bw players on it. Is there something massively different about the mod that is preventing people from playing it? you know day9's rts will be web-browser rts? you will be able to play it with phone and tablets most likely . gl getting 90apm+ with tablets :D | ||
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Twiggs
United States600 Posts
On October 24 2013 04:56 Squat wrote: No one makes RTS games, at least not with esports in mind. SC2 has no serious competition, Blizzard can afford to maintain mediocrity and still be on top, it's one of the problems. Valve and Riot are busting their asses to make sure their game is constantly improving and are not afraid to implement big changes, because they are directly competing with one another. Competition breeds excellence, hegemony breeds sloth and complacency. Hence why we can settle the Mac vs PC debate once and for all. Competition breeds innovation. | ||
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jdsowa
405 Posts
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On October 24 2013 06:15 Grumbels wrote: I think the WoW type of e-sports is pretty great though, since you can somewhat respect the ability to complete raids while undergeared with none of the strategies known yet, but there is no real way to monetize it outside of sponsors and it doesn't discourage people from playing the game themselves. It's just this impressive achievement that contributes to the community feeling. I was talking about the arena esport thing specifically, I honestly never watched a single raid event thingy even when I played the game. I am not sure it could ever work as legit competition, but I can totally see how it could be a cool event for something like blizzcon, like a fun challenge type race with lots of banter and a more relaxed attitude, yeah I could see that. You'd need some pretty amazing casters to make to work though, the technical side of min-maxing for heroic raids in WoW is about as exciting as watching paint dry, with your eyes closed. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On October 24 2013 06:51 jdsowa wrote: SC2 is a game that involves sitting in your base for 10+ minutes, staring at your structures, executing unforgivingly rigid, robotic macro build orders which you learn by reading a list off the internet and repeating over and over. The maps are dead, flat 2D spaces with no creeps, shops, plantlife or anything. All very fine for 1998, but not now. Now that other more modern esports have come along, people are slowly realizing that this is just a niche game with very little spectator or casual appeal. People who talk about saving the game with chat rooms or tournament formats are so off base it's funny. yeah i forgot most people watch mobas cause they have shops and creeps, youre abolsutely right sir! | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 24 2013 07:02 Squat wrote: I was talking about the arena esport thing specifically, I honestly never watched a single raid event thingy even when I played the game. I am not sure it could ever work as legit competition, but I can totally see how it could be a cool event for something like blizzcon, like a fun challenge type race with lots of banter and a more relaxed attitude, yeah I could see that. You'd need some pretty amazing casters to make to work though, the technical side of min-maxing for heroic raids in WoW is about as exciting as watching paint dry, with your eyes closed. How dare you insult paint drying competition!  But seriously, as interesting as it "sounds" when described, watching a raid over my friend's shoulder bored me to tears. | ||
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phodacbiet
United States1739 Posts
Wont be an SC3 because no one will play sc after lotv. | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On October 24 2013 07:13 Thieving Magpie wrote: How dare you insult paint drying competition! But seriously, as interesting as it "sounds" when described, watching a raid over my friend's shoulder bored me to tears. It would be entirely dependent on the crowd and casters, kind of like how Incontrol was casting bronze league for the lulz, everyone watched for the heck of it, the games themselves didn't matter. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
On October 24 2013 07:02 Squat wrote: I was talking about the arena esport thing specifically, I honestly never watched a single raid event thingy even when I played the game. I am not sure it could ever work as legit competition, but I can totally see how it could be a cool event for something like blizzcon, like a fun challenge type race with lots of banter and a more relaxed attitude, yeah I could see that. You'd need some pretty amazing casters to make to work though, the technical side of min-maxing for heroic raids in WoW is about as exciting as watching paint dry, with your eyes closed. Well, I was taking a charitable approach. I thought reading about the adventures of Nihilum/Curse on sites like mmo-champion.com was fairly interesting and at least provided some discussion fodder for the community. Even if the situation with the Ensidia sponsorship deal and the various mergers was ridiculous, even if you could have serious questions about whether minmaxing goes against the spirit of the game, and even if Kungen was not the best role model or representative for the game (you should read his blog where he says he uses electroshocks to stay awake while trying to get server firsts), at least those world first raiding competitions were real achievements that took work, and I think were evidence of a certain potential of the game: that many people were stupid enough to try and become professional raiders. I think it contributed to the community in a certain sense, or at least it demonstrated something about it, that there were so many people that cared enough about the game and the community that they were willing to go through these extremes. Nihilum and such were pretty ruthless though. In order to be competitive they had to recruit a ton of people purely to meet certain class requirements, and you could easily be denied spots just because your class was slightly lower on some dps chart. And if you didn't perform up to a certain standard you would be kicked from the guild. I can't see it as being a fun experience, but some people take pride in being the best of the server/region/world I guess. More power (and glory) to them, especially since nobody is forcing them, so I think it should be acknowledged as a valid choice. And I think they did do demonstration raids at Blizzcon in the past. I imagine it's fun to see once a year or so, if it's combined with some interviews about the process of organizing and leading the raid group, strategy discussion, class strength discussion. People have vested interests in all these things, since they play the same game and the same classes, so it's all interesting for them to watch as incidental content. And more importantly, the professional WoW scene was something of a natural consequence of people connecting to the game. It was not valid in itself, but it did contribute to the community in some ways. (positive or negative) It's not like SC2 where it's just glorified traditional sports with people that are passive and just watch and that have almost no connection to the actual SC2 playerbase. (disclaimer: I don't really like the concept of e-sports, I think it's sort of preying on people's natural impulses to want to become the best at something or tribal instincts to root for people. I think it's only acceptable if it's an outgrowth of an enthusiastic playerbase and love of the game. After all, you can make people watch anything and be mildly content with it. (people watch baseball after all) Being a "fan" of a player or whatever should be cause for embarrassment, as such a community that fetishizes fangirls that uncritically swoon about Bisu's handsomeness should ask some questions to itself) | ||
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bypLy
757 Posts
now its to late.. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 24 2013 05:11 PhoenixLight wrote: Day 9 lover of starcraft is making a RTS game with esports in mind. Hopefully it will kick sc2's ass, so blizzard won't be so full of themselves and acknowledged that their game is far from being even close to done. The competitive RTS genere really needs some love cause as long as sc2 remains top dog people get all defensive and refuse to even imagine that there is a better way of doing things. Also, someone should host SC2BW tourney and get some of the top bw players on it. Is there something massively different about the mod that is preventing people from playing it? SC2BW doesn't have the pathing and in general, feels different. Being able to use the AI to your advantage in BW felt fucking amazing. Nothing can describe the feeling of being able to block ultralisks with meds or doing other fancy BW only tricks due to AI. On October 24 2013 05:19 NovemberstOrm wrote: You think cheese is bad? that's quite hilarious, cheese can be very entertaining especially in close series, if it happened every game that wouldn't be good but it doesn't so it's fine imo. Starcraft has a risk and reward system, you play greedy and your opponent plays standard you are ahead, your opponent does an all-in while you are playing greedy and the allin has a better chance of working. Having actions that happen fast where you can lose if you aren't paying attention raises the overall skill level, however what it can also do is make things slightly luck based where if you look away for a second you can lose where as if you saw it right away you take 0 damage this is a good mechanic and makes things interesting. It's not "random bullshit" most of the casuals in the game aren't people constantly checking their army every second or two of the game so your 'slightly luck based' become massive for them. I've had my fair share of those moments as well although I can't say when it last happened since I haven't played in quite a while. Point is, it's still a major factor and makes the game more luck based than it should be. If they were to slow down the attack speeds by about same amount or at least increase hp around the same % then even if you are caught of guard, you won't lose half your army or something. Does it increase skill level? yes but in a good way? frankly, I dunno. | ||
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