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On October 24 2013 00:25 projectChaos wrote:
Blizzard is doing fine by ignoring you whiners, because StarCraft2 is good as it is right now. If you don`t like it, try another game. Did you ever think about the people loving sc2, when you criticize it, wanting too many changes? We had like over 30k viewers on a small european challenger league yesterday and 100k viewers on the finals. This is allready way more than 2012. Where is the f**king problem ? You don`t like it as much as Broodwar, because you grew up with that game. So what? I couldn`t watch Broodwar for 5 minutes.
It hasn`t the huge fanbase like LoL, but SC2 has an unique community of "real" eSport fans, while LoL gets a lot of casual players, who like the game because it`s free and easy to play. I`ve tried HoN (it`s a DOTA-game like LoL) for some time and i can`t remember a game without people flaming. It`s a conglumeration of trolls and trash. I do not want this to happen to SC2.
I compliment you on your efforts trying to analyze and write some stuff... but Blizzard shouldn`t listen to a word of that. With the experience they`ve got, I`m pretty sute they won`t. They are creating eSport for more than a decade... do you think a boy in his mid twenties can teach `em?
Well, you can learn a lot from a dummy. In this case, the dummy is in his late twenties.
Your logic is full of logical fallacies my friend.
You made an argument based on authority, applied fallaciously (rarely can one make an argument from authority that isn't fallacious), stating that Blizzard knows what they are doing because they are Blizzard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority
You also made an argument with a genetic fallacy, assuming that someone in their twenties can't teach Blizzard simply because of their age, wholly ignoring the context and content of what they say.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy
There is also some anecdotal and begging the question fallacies in there ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence ). So I suggest you fix these fallacies in your logic. Then you'll realize we were right.
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On October 24 2013 00:36 Chaggi wrote:
oh where do I even start...
If you actually read what we write, and follow what some of us have written about it, you can see that a lot of us don't really want SC2 to be like BW v2. There are a lot of great qualities about BW that could be taken into account and make the game more interesting for both the viewer and the player. Things like yesterday's Swarm Host/Viper vs Protoss Deathball was just stupid. There are a lot of designs of units that simply don't make sense. People have been complaining about how necessary AoE is for Protoss since WoL Beta. Not only can Blizzard learn from the community, they absolutely should and they should be more open in how they're looking at these issues. A game developer can't make an "eSport" alone, it has to be a combined effort with the community. One of the easiest examples of this is GameHeart's custom viewer UI which was not something Blizzard had ever really done, but it's used in virtually every large tournament, or at least the concept of it is, now.
And when you say Blizzard had been creating "esports for more than a decade..." that's not true. BW absolutely got lucked into. They didn't do any patches past the first year or two and the rest was done by maps. They got incredibly lucky that bugs were in there to make the game more deep than it realistically should've been for a game created around that time.
Blizzard should not ignore the community, but they also should not listen to every cry for changes. History showed that there is always more calls for changes than things getting changed by updates. And they drove a solid rode with that. I wasn`t talking about little changes. And the main influence on these changes should be the progamers, not the community.
Can`t agree on the second point, either. Blizzard did more than BW. D2, WC3, D3, (WoW) are equally great + eSport - games. And do not forget the DOTA-games which got developed as a WC3 mod. I am pretty sute that Blizzard have generated more eSport-enthusiasts than any other company.
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On October 24 2013 00:52 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 00:25 projectChaos wrote:
Blizzard is doing fine by ignoring you whiners, because StarCraft2 is good as it is right now. If you don`t like it, try another game. Did you ever think about the people loving sc2, when you criticize it, wanting too many changes? We had like over 30k viewers on a small european challenger league yesterday and 100k viewers on the finals. This is allready way more than 2012. Where is the f**king problem ? You don`t like it as much as Broodwar, because you grew up with that game. So what? I couldn`t watch Broodwar for 5 minutes.
It hasn`t the huge fanbase like LoL, but SC2 has an unique community of "real" eSport fans, while LoL gets a lot of casual players, who like the game because it`s free and easy to play. I`ve tried HoN (it`s a DOTA-game like LoL) for some time and i can`t remember a game without people flaming. It`s a conglumeration of trolls and trash. I do not want this to happen to SC2.
I compliment you on your efforts trying to analyze and write some stuff... but Blizzard shouldn`t listen to a word of that. With the experience they`ve got, I`m pretty sute they won`t. They are creating eSport for more than a decade... do you think a boy in his mid twenties can teach `em? Well, you can learn a lot from a dummy. In this case, the dummy is in his late twenties. Your logic is full of logical fallacies my friend. You made an argument based on authority, applied fallaciously (rarely can one make an argument from authority that isn't fallacious), stating that Blizzard knows what they are doing because they are Blizzard. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authorityYou also made an argument with a genetic fallacy, assuming that someone in their twenties can't teach Blizzard simply because of their age, wholly ignoring the context and content of what they say. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacyThere is also some anecdotal and begging the question fallacies in there ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence ). So I suggest you fix these fallacies in your logic. Then you'll realize we were right.
I'm pretty sure he is not the only guy doing this. Arguments on both sides are pretty bad.
There's really nothing productive coming out of this anymore. Time to let this thread die.
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If you actually read what we write, and follow what some of us have written about it, you can see that a lot of us don't really want SC2 to be like BW v2. There are a lot of great qualities about BW that could be taken into account and make the game more interesting for both the viewer and the player. Things like yesterday's Swarm Host/Viper vs Protoss Deathball was just stupid. There are a lot of designs of units that simply don't make sense.
It doesn`t make sense to you maybe? With the age thing, I was implying that a teenager doesn`t have the experience in developing a game as some long time designers at Blizz have, who in the past showed good decisions. Genetic fallacy my ass.
I`ve played D3 since the beta (like sc2 btw). Did you ever read their reasons for patch-changes? They amazed me. Every tiniest detail is well thought and had reason you wouldn`t have thought in years. I`m not saying they are perfect and your the dumbest shit, but I think some guys here are underastimating.
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I am very worried about sc2 right now. We all disliked infestor+corrupters+broodlords at end of of WoL and we all have hoped that HotS gives us some new big impulses. Already after 5 months, it is exactly as boring as end of WoL. All HotS Units are boring like Collosus.
In addition, we saw mana vs firekake yesterday and morrow vs zeth today, both showed an awful awful lategame 
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On October 24 2013 01:44 Dingodile wrote:In addition, we saw mana vs firekake yesterday and morrow vs zeth today, both showed an awful awful lategame
Could we not use that brain fart of a game as an example of anything, please? It's about as constructive as using a progamer 8 player FFA as proof that Ravens are imba.
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Was an avid fan of Sc2 ever since the beta was in it's end-stages and the game was about to be released. It was exciting to watch, everything grew and got better tournament after tournament. It was fun to see the improvement in everybody, the players, the tournament organisers, casters etc.
Also played the game here and there, not too fanatically, but on a normal gamer-level you could say. It was fun to think about shit, see strategies played out in games, listen to analysis and such. I even liked the end of WoL because there were interesting people to follow.
The seemingly bad things didn't matter as much, because for a long time, it was very easy to have the feeling, that Blizzard will manage to do something at some point. WCS? Fuck yeah! ... then it actually happened and it was pretty sad. But Blizzard is not what you would expect from the past.
Shortly after HotS was released, I realised for myself, that this just is not something I want to invest any more time in. It was right around the time, when I was watching some interviews with David Kim and Dustin Browder and saw those fkin clowns telling us bullshit over and over and over again and nothing really seemed to change in a way everybody who knew what he was talking about suggested.
Last tournament I watched was a Dreamhack a few months ago. Didn't watch it for the games or Starcraft in general though. I'm a bit sad, that I'm happy about not caring about it anymore.
I hope there will still be enough people watching it in the future.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 24 2013 01:44 Dingodile wrote:I am very worried about sc2 right now. We all disliked infestor+corrupters+broodlords at end of of WoL and we all have hoped that HotS gives us some new big impulses. Already after 5 months, it is exactly as boring as end of WoL. All HotS Units are boring like Collosus. In addition, we saw mana vs firekake yesterday and morrow vs zeth today, both showed an awful awful lategame
You use games of low tier (yes, relatively low tier) foreigners are prove of statement. Sorry, but i actually found Rain vs Soulkey game 1 pretty good and it had SHs-BLs-festors in it. Was not any bit boring though. And yes, the only real fault of Blizzard is not removing Akilon from map pool.
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you're forgetting some very important things here...
broodwar was a total sand box where players were totally free on some MAJOR aspects like 1) creating new accounts like madness 2) creating games and ban players they doesn't want to play, games that still appears in their stats 3) saying almost everything they want on the chat 4) force a player to use a tool like penguin anti-hack before playing him in 1v1, or go on iccup 5) create other ladder systems 6) saying goodbye to almost everything blizzard designed and doing it in his own way
on the opposite, sc2 is like living under big brother eyes and rules, with your REAL name and forname and address all along - where's the fun when the police is watching ? a police that have NEVER EVER sanctionned maphack (don't believe the fakes) but will temp ban you almost every time your "suck my *ck a**hole" will be reported by a community that learned how it work "dont resist (the führer), report ! (... the jew)"
sc2 is not a mmorg but designed for a mmorpg's community - this has nothing to do with that unfortunatly
a competitive game needs some fresh air ways
you can't play hidden from your friends or rivals (even your diablo 3 clan can see the traitor you are), you can't multiclan, can't play an easy game before going with a harder one, can't fake to be a girl to join a noob team and kick some noob bubble gum, YOU CAN'T SIMPLY HAVE FUN OF THE OTHERS
sc2 is also suffering from the "skype" syndrom... most of the gamers want some known allies but dont want or cant speak to them on the phone - when we know that player go from 12 to 56 years old... check the medium age of the still-playing bw gamer and there's a truth here : almost all of the true bw fan are too old to go from liberty to totalitarism for a worst game with more boring kiddo...
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 24 2013 02:46 asron wrote:
you're forgetting some very important things here...
broodwar was a total sand box where players were totally free on some MAJOR aspects like 1) creating new accounts like madness 2) creating games and ban players they doesn't want to play, games that still appears in their stats 3) saying almost everything they want on the chat 4) force a player to use a tool like penguin anti-hack before playing him in 1v1, or go on iccup 5) create other ladder systems 6) saying goodbye to almost everything blizzard designed and doing it in his own way
on the opposite, sc2 is like living under big brother eyes and rules, with your REAL name and forname and address all along - where's the fun when the police is watching ? a police that have NEVER EVER sanctionned maphack (don't believe the fakes) but will ban you almost every time your "suck my *ck a**hole" will be reported by a community that learned how it work "dont resist (the führer), report ! (... the jew)"
sc2 is not a mmorg but designed for a mmorpg's community - this has nothing to do with that unfortunatly
a competitive game needs some fresh air ways
you can't play hidden from your friends or rivals (even your diablo 3 clan can see the traitor you are), you can't multiclan, can't play an easy game before going with a harder one, can't fake to be a girl to join a noob team and kick some noob bubble gum, YOU CAN'T SIMPLY HAVE FUN OF THE OTHERS
sc2 is also suffering from the "skype" syndrom... most of the gamers want some known allies but dont want or cant speak to them on the phone - when we know that player go from 12 to 56 years... check the medium age of the still-playing bw gamer and there's a truth here : almost of the true bw fan are too old to go from liberty to totalitarism for a less good game with more boring kiddo...
Actually lol'd
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On October 24 2013 00:59 projectChaos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 00:36 Chaggi wrote:
oh where do I even start...
If you actually read what we write, and follow what some of us have written about it, you can see that a lot of us don't really want SC2 to be like BW v2. There are a lot of great qualities about BW that could be taken into account and make the game more interesting for both the viewer and the player. Things like yesterday's Swarm Host/Viper vs Protoss Deathball was just stupid. There are a lot of designs of units that simply don't make sense. People have been complaining about how necessary AoE is for Protoss since WoL Beta. Not only can Blizzard learn from the community, they absolutely should and they should be more open in how they're looking at these issues. A game developer can't make an "eSport" alone, it has to be a combined effort with the community. One of the easiest examples of this is GameHeart's custom viewer UI which was not something Blizzard had ever really done, but it's used in virtually every large tournament, or at least the concept of it is, now.
And when you say Blizzard had been creating "esports for more than a decade..." that's not true. BW absolutely got lucked into. They didn't do any patches past the first year or two and the rest was done by maps. They got incredibly lucky that bugs were in there to make the game more deep than it realistically should've been for a game created around that time. Can`t agree on the second point, either. Blizzard did more than BW. D2, WC3, D3, (WoW) are equally great + eSport - games. And do not forget the DOTA-games which got developed as a WC3 mod. I am pretty sute that Blizzard have generated more eSport-enthusiasts than any other company.
What...?
Again, please like, know stuff before posting. D2, WoW were never Esports in any real sense, WoW had a brief flirt with trying to be one, but fell flat on its face after everyone realized how dumb and hilariously imbalanced it was. D2 as an esport, lol. D3 doesn't even have any real PvP.
And Dota had nothing to do with blizz, Icefrog approached blizzard with the concept, asking for support, and they completely shut him down, they saw the mod as a joke. Once more, blizzard did not make brood war into a massive Esports, it was the teenagers you seem so hostile towards.
Again, you seem to be confusing blizzard from 2001 with blizzard 2013, they are not the same thing, barely even the same company, all they have in common is the name and trademarks.
You can disagree with the sentiment that the game has problems, that's fine, but you don't get to just make shit up and ignore historical facts and then expect people to take you seriously.
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Was this discussed in inside the game?
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On October 24 2013 00:59 projectChaos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 00:36 Chaggi wrote:
oh where do I even start...
If you actually read what we write, and follow what some of us have written about it, you can see that a lot of us don't really want SC2 to be like BW v2. There are a lot of great qualities about BW that could be taken into account and make the game more interesting for both the viewer and the player. Things like yesterday's Swarm Host/Viper vs Protoss Deathball was just stupid. There are a lot of designs of units that simply don't make sense. People have been complaining about how necessary AoE is for Protoss since WoL Beta. Not only can Blizzard learn from the community, they absolutely should and they should be more open in how they're looking at these issues. A game developer can't make an "eSport" alone, it has to be a combined effort with the community. One of the easiest examples of this is GameHeart's custom viewer UI which was not something Blizzard had ever really done, but it's used in virtually every large tournament, or at least the concept of it is, now.
And when you say Blizzard had been creating "esports for more than a decade..." that's not true. BW absolutely got lucked into. They didn't do any patches past the first year or two and the rest was done by maps. They got incredibly lucky that bugs were in there to make the game more deep than it realistically should've been for a game created around that time. Blizzard should not ignore the community, but they also should not listen to every cry for changes. History showed that there is always more calls for changes than things getting changed by updates. And they drove a solid rode with that. I wasn`t talking about little changes. And the main influence on these changes should be the progamers, not the community. Can`t agree on the second point, either. Blizzard did more than BW. D2, WC3, D3, (WoW) are equally great + eSport - games. And do not forget the DOTA-games which got developed as a WC3 mod. I am pretty sute that Blizzard have generated more eSport-enthusiasts than any other company.
You're talking about eSports. I will admit, I have no idea what they did with WC3 so I'm not gonna comment on that but BW was not patched after it's release 2 years. D2 and D3 aren't esports game and primarily single player. WoW Arena looked like it could be something good but after 2 years it fizzled out. I used to be a big arena junkie and I remember when Death Knights came out and just thinking, there is no reason why they should have no weaknesses (Season 5 for anyone that remembers, death grip, stun immune, aoe freeze, ghoul that stunned and can sacrifice). That was around the time when WoW Arena was just starting as an esport, except Blizzard showed that sales were more to them (cause it was the Death Knight expansion) than actual balance. so no, I have absolutely no faith in Blizzard.
Regarding your first point, Blizzard shouldn't ignore and they shouldn't listen to everything - that's correct. What bugs me is that David Kim responds to literally the most worthless things. Was an oracle change really necessary? Was a WM nerf really something that needed to happen right then and there? Why not address some of the issues like Swarm Hosts and that stupid 3+ hour game we saw? That happens on ladder a lot. Why not address the idea that Protoss is a useless race without AoE? They keep adding stuff that if you dont pay attention for one second, you're dead. Every race has them. Zergling runbys can do stupid amounts of damage if you're not prepared. So can DT/Oracle/Zealot runby. And who hasn't run into a stimmed marine drop/doom drop from Terran?
Honestly, I think/hope that this community has accepted that LoL/DoTA/party games are going to be more popular than a 1v1, simple as that. Why not give the community, at the very least, some feedback to show that they know what they're talking about? None of their decisions has shown us that. Everything ranging from nerfing thors in one weekend, to a 3->5 range queen without really testing it (who remembers that 1 week test because they rolled back the energy change?) and then waiting 6+ months for broodlord infestor to kill WoL.
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On October 24 2013 03:39 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 00:59 projectChaos wrote:On October 24 2013 00:36 Chaggi wrote:
oh where do I even start...
If you actually read what we write, and follow what some of us have written about it, you can see that a lot of us don't really want SC2 to be like BW v2. There are a lot of great qualities about BW that could be taken into account and make the game more interesting for both the viewer and the player. Things like yesterday's Swarm Host/Viper vs Protoss Deathball was just stupid. There are a lot of designs of units that simply don't make sense. People have been complaining about how necessary AoE is for Protoss since WoL Beta. Not only can Blizzard learn from the community, they absolutely should and they should be more open in how they're looking at these issues. A game developer can't make an "eSport" alone, it has to be a combined effort with the community. One of the easiest examples of this is GameHeart's custom viewer UI which was not something Blizzard had ever really done, but it's used in virtually every large tournament, or at least the concept of it is, now.
And when you say Blizzard had been creating "esports for more than a decade..." that's not true. BW absolutely got lucked into. They didn't do any patches past the first year or two and the rest was done by maps. They got incredibly lucky that bugs were in there to make the game more deep than it realistically should've been for a game created around that time. Blizzard should not ignore the community, but they also should not listen to every cry for changes. History showed that there is always more calls for changes than things getting changed by updates. And they drove a solid rode with that. I wasn`t talking about little changes. And the main influence on these changes should be the progamers, not the community. Can`t agree on the second point, either. Blizzard did more than BW. D2, WC3, D3, (WoW) are equally great + eSport - games. And do not forget the DOTA-games which got developed as a WC3 mod. I am pretty sute that Blizzard have generated more eSport-enthusiasts than any other company. You're talking about eSports. I will admit, I have no idea what they did with WC3 so I'm not gonna comment on that but BW was not patched after it's release 2 years. D2 and D3 aren't esports game and primarily single player. WoW Arena looked like it could be something good but after 2 years it fizzled out. I used to be a big arena junkie and I remember when Death Knights came out and just thinking, there is no reason why they should have no weaknesses (Season 5 for anyone that remembers, death grip, stun immune, aoe freeze, ghoul that stunned and can sacrifice). That was around the time when WoW Arena was just starting as an esport, except Blizzard showed that sales were more to them (cause it was the Death Knight expansion) than actual balance. so no, I have absolutely no faith in Blizzard. Regarding your first point, Blizzard shouldn't ignore and they shouldn't listen to everything - that's correct. What bugs me is that David Kim responds to literally the most worthless things. Was an oracle change really necessary? Was a WM nerf really something that needed to happen right then and there? Why not address some of the issues like Swarm Hosts and that stupid 3+ hour game we saw? That happens on ladder a lot. Why not address the idea that Protoss is a useless race without AoE? They keep adding stuff that if you dont pay attention for one second, you're dead. Every race has them. Zergling runbys can do stupid amounts of damage if you're not prepared. So can DT/Oracle/Zealot runby. And who hasn't run into a stimmed marine drop/doom drop from Terran? Honestly, I think/hope that this community has accepted that LoL/DoTA/party games are going to be more popular than a 1v1, simple as that. Why not give the community, at the very least, some feedback to show that they know what they're talking about? None of their decisions has shown us that. Everything ranging from nerfing thors in one weekend, to a 3->5 range queen without really testing it (who remembers that 1 week test because they rolled back the energy change?) and then waiting 6+ months for broodlord infestor to kill WoL.
What pushed a lot of WoW development was Raiding competitions. Although impossible to become a spectator sport--it was a massive and intense speed/endurance competition of world first kills. The only way WoW could become a real esport is to follow the Nascar philosophy of a "race"
Imagine two Raid Groups starting from the zone-in line and race each other to clear all bosses in a zone in one go. It would take a few hours and people commentators can talk about strats and trends during trash pulls. And much like Nascar I would find it boring as fuck.
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On October 24 2013 03:55 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 03:39 Chaggi wrote:On October 24 2013 00:59 projectChaos wrote:On October 24 2013 00:36 Chaggi wrote:
oh where do I even start...
If you actually read what we write, and follow what some of us have written about it, you can see that a lot of us don't really want SC2 to be like BW v2. There are a lot of great qualities about BW that could be taken into account and make the game more interesting for both the viewer and the player. Things like yesterday's Swarm Host/Viper vs Protoss Deathball was just stupid. There are a lot of designs of units that simply don't make sense. People have been complaining about how necessary AoE is for Protoss since WoL Beta. Not only can Blizzard learn from the community, they absolutely should and they should be more open in how they're looking at these issues. A game developer can't make an "eSport" alone, it has to be a combined effort with the community. One of the easiest examples of this is GameHeart's custom viewer UI which was not something Blizzard had ever really done, but it's used in virtually every large tournament, or at least the concept of it is, now.
And when you say Blizzard had been creating "esports for more than a decade..." that's not true. BW absolutely got lucked into. They didn't do any patches past the first year or two and the rest was done by maps. They got incredibly lucky that bugs were in there to make the game more deep than it realistically should've been for a game created around that time. Blizzard should not ignore the community, but they also should not listen to every cry for changes. History showed that there is always more calls for changes than things getting changed by updates. And they drove a solid rode with that. I wasn`t talking about little changes. And the main influence on these changes should be the progamers, not the community. Can`t agree on the second point, either. Blizzard did more than BW. D2, WC3, D3, (WoW) are equally great + eSport - games. And do not forget the DOTA-games which got developed as a WC3 mod. I am pretty sute that Blizzard have generated more eSport-enthusiasts than any other company. You're talking about eSports. I will admit, I have no idea what they did with WC3 so I'm not gonna comment on that but BW was not patched after it's release 2 years. D2 and D3 aren't esports game and primarily single player. WoW Arena looked like it could be something good but after 2 years it fizzled out. I used to be a big arena junkie and I remember when Death Knights came out and just thinking, there is no reason why they should have no weaknesses (Season 5 for anyone that remembers, death grip, stun immune, aoe freeze, ghoul that stunned and can sacrifice). That was around the time when WoW Arena was just starting as an esport, except Blizzard showed that sales were more to them (cause it was the Death Knight expansion) than actual balance. so no, I have absolutely no faith in Blizzard. Regarding your first point, Blizzard shouldn't ignore and they shouldn't listen to everything - that's correct. What bugs me is that David Kim responds to literally the most worthless things. Was an oracle change really necessary? Was a WM nerf really something that needed to happen right then and there? Why not address some of the issues like Swarm Hosts and that stupid 3+ hour game we saw? That happens on ladder a lot. Why not address the idea that Protoss is a useless race without AoE? They keep adding stuff that if you dont pay attention for one second, you're dead. Every race has them. Zergling runbys can do stupid amounts of damage if you're not prepared. So can DT/Oracle/Zealot runby. And who hasn't run into a stimmed marine drop/doom drop from Terran? Honestly, I think/hope that this community has accepted that LoL/DoTA/party games are going to be more popular than a 1v1, simple as that. Why not give the community, at the very least, some feedback to show that they know what they're talking about? None of their decisions has shown us that. Everything ranging from nerfing thors in one weekend, to a 3->5 range queen without really testing it (who remembers that 1 week test because they rolled back the energy change?) and then waiting 6+ months for broodlord infestor to kill WoL. What pushed a lot of WoW development was Raiding competitions. Although impossible to become a spectator sport--it was a massive and intense speed/endurance competition of world first kills. The only way WoW could become a real esport is to follow the Nascar philosophy of a "race" Imagine two Raid Groups starting from the zone-in line and race each other to clear all bosses in a zone in one go. It would take a few hours and people commentators can talk about strats and trends during trash pulls. And much like Nascar I would find it boring as fuck.
WoW's biggest problem as a spectator event was always that it required a rather high level of expertise to be able to understand what the fuck was going on, let alone appreciate the finer points of gameplay. To anyone else it looked like random green bars jumping up and down and a dwarf with a nice beard behind some boxes.
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On October 24 2013 02:48 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 02:46 asron wrote:
you're forgetting some very important things here...
broodwar was a total sand box where players were totally free on some MAJOR aspects like 1) creating new accounts like madness 2) creating games and ban players they doesn't want to play, games that still appears in their stats 3) saying almost everything they want on the chat 4) force a player to use a tool like penguin anti-hack before playing him in 1v1, or go on iccup 5) create other ladder systems 6) saying goodbye to almost everything blizzard designed and doing it in his own way
on the opposite, sc2 is like living under big brother eyes and rules, with your REAL name and forname and address all along - where's the fun when the police is watching ? a police that have NEVER EVER sanctionned maphack (don't believe the fakes) but will ban you almost every time your "suck my *ck a**hole" will be reported by a community that learned how it work "dont resist (the führer), report ! (... the jew)"
sc2 is not a mmorg but designed for a mmorpg's community - this has nothing to do with that unfortunatly
a competitive game needs some fresh air ways
you can't play hidden from your friends or rivals (even your diablo 3 clan can see the traitor you are), you can't multiclan, can't play an easy game before going with a harder one, can't fake to be a girl to join a noob team and kick some noob bubble gum, YOU CAN'T SIMPLY HAVE FUN OF THE OTHERS
sc2 is also suffering from the "skype" syndrom... most of the gamers want some known allies but dont want or cant speak to them on the phone - when we know that player go from 12 to 56 years... check the medium age of the still-playing bw gamer and there's a truth here : almost of the true bw fan are too old to go from liberty to totalitarism for a less good game with more boring kiddo...
Actually lol'd
me too, but sadly it speak the truth
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On October 24 2013 04:07 Squat wrote:
WoW's biggest problem as a spectator event was always that it required a rather high level of expertise to be able to understand what the fuck was going on, let alone appreciate the finer points of gameplay. To anyone else it looked like random green bars jumping up and dawn and a dwarf with a nice beard behind some boxes.
Welcome to the problem with "e-sports".
On October 24 2013 00:52 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 00:25 projectChaos wrote:
Blizzard is doing fine by ignoring you whiners, because StarCraft2 is good as it is right now. If you don`t like it, try another game. Did you ever think about the people loving sc2, when you criticize it, wanting too many changes? We had like over 30k viewers on a small european challenger league yesterday and 100k viewers on the finals. This is allready way more than 2012. Where is the f**king problem ? You don`t like it as much as Broodwar, because you grew up with that game. So what? I couldn`t watch Broodwar for 5 minutes.
It hasn`t the huge fanbase like LoL, but SC2 has an unique community of "real" eSport fans, while LoL gets a lot of casual players, who like the game because it`s free and easy to play. I`ve tried HoN (it`s a DOTA-game like LoL) for some time and i can`t remember a game without people flaming. It`s a conglumeration of trolls and trash. I do not want this to happen to SC2.
I compliment you on your efforts trying to analyze and write some stuff... but Blizzard shouldn`t listen to a word of that. With the experience they`ve got, I`m pretty sute they won`t. They are creating eSport for more than a decade... do you think a boy in his mid twenties can teach `em? Well, you can learn a lot from a dummy. In this case, the dummy is in his late twenties. Your logic is full of logical fallacies my friend. You made an argument based on authority, applied fallaciously (rarely can one make an argument from authority that isn't fallacious), stating that Blizzard knows what they are doing because they are Blizzard. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authorityYou also made an argument with a genetic fallacy, assuming that someone in their twenties can't teach Blizzard simply because of their age, wholly ignoring the context and content of what they say. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacyThere is also some anecdotal and begging the question fallacies in there ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence ). So I suggest you fix these fallacies in your logic. Then you'll realize we were right.
fallacy fallacy
I have a long, storied and profound love of the RTS. SC2 is great but SC2 has a problem. Engagements are over too quickly. Fix that and you'll grab audience share from the MOBAs.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 24 2013 04:30 Garmer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2013 02:48 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 24 2013 02:46 asron wrote:
you're forgetting some very important things here...
broodwar was a total sand box where players were totally free on some MAJOR aspects like 1) creating new accounts like madness 2) creating games and ban players they doesn't want to play, games that still appears in their stats 3) saying almost everything they want on the chat 4) force a player to use a tool like penguin anti-hack before playing him in 1v1, or go on iccup 5) create other ladder systems 6) saying goodbye to almost everything blizzard designed and doing it in his own way
on the opposite, sc2 is like living under big brother eyes and rules, with your REAL name and forname and address all along - where's the fun when the police is watching ? a police that have NEVER EVER sanctionned maphack (don't believe the fakes) but will ban you almost every time your "suck my *ck a**hole" will be reported by a community that learned how it work "dont resist (the führer), report ! (... the jew)"
sc2 is not a mmorg but designed for a mmorpg's community - this has nothing to do with that unfortunatly
a competitive game needs some fresh air ways
you can't play hidden from your friends or rivals (even your diablo 3 clan can see the traitor you are), you can't multiclan, can't play an easy game before going with a harder one, can't fake to be a girl to join a noob team and kick some noob bubble gum, YOU CAN'T SIMPLY HAVE FUN OF THE OTHERS
sc2 is also suffering from the "skype" syndrom... most of the gamers want some known allies but dont want or cant speak to them on the phone - when we know that player go from 12 to 56 years... check the medium age of the still-playing bw gamer and there's a truth here : almost of the true bw fan are too old to go from liberty to totalitarism for a less good game with more boring kiddo...
Actually lol'd me too, but sadly it speak the truth
As a guy who lives in essentially authoritarianistic country that being the truth (it is) confuses me on how can it effect anyone's opinion.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 24 2013 04:33 Dapper_Cad wrote:
I have a long, storied and profound love of the RTS. SC2 is great but SC2 has a problem. Engagements are over too quickly. Fix that and you'll grab audience share from the MOBAs.
It does not work like that.
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this game is too late to be fixed, sc2 biggest problem, is the game itself
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EPT
