EPTI really love the game, and I think it's a much better spectator sport than Dota, Lol, or a FPS, but gameplay is pretty standard and only changed by the maps. Blizzard has become a massive corporation and is waaaaay too slow to change, compared to Dota which has constant new heros, items, and patches that fundamentally change game mechanics. Brood War was fine to leave alone because it was almost a perfect game, but SC2 certainly isn't and Blizzard isn't willing to make changes it can't charge money for, like expansions.
StarCraft 2: What's The Problem - Page 94
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Canada1047 Posts
I really love the game, and I think it's a much better spectator sport than Dota, Lol, or a FPS, but gameplay is pretty standard and only changed by the maps. Blizzard has become a massive corporation and is waaaaay too slow to change, compared to Dota which has constant new heros, items, and patches that fundamentally change game mechanics. Brood War was fine to leave alone because it was almost a perfect game, but SC2 certainly isn't and Blizzard isn't willing to make changes it can't charge money for, like expansions. | ||
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On October 23 2013 02:25 Coffee Zombie wrote: The lack of diversity has more to do with the game's volatility and the hardcounter system than anything else. Plus probably MVP nerfing Terran to hell in WoL. Mhm, no. The "lack of diversity" is only there cause terran bio is way better than the rest they have. You can play mech vs zerg and terran, but bio is better/ just as good and they did this since the beginning. If you wanna have more diversity the best thing to do (in the next beta) would be to nerf the shit out of bio, just to see where mech needs fixing, then rebuff it again ofc :D All other races have different options in pretty much every matchup, so i dont know where this "lack of diversity" even comes from. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 23 2013 02:25 Coffee Zombie wrote: The lack of diversity has more to do with the game's volatility and the hardcounter system than anything else. Plus probably MVP nerfing Terran to hell in WoL. As much as i hear these statements about volatility of the game, as much i have no clue what do saying that mean under that. Yes, this game is ******* impossible to come back, and probably that need of keeping yourself in game 90% of time is rather stressing. But i am certainly not sure about volatility. | ||
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McRatyn
Poland901 Posts
On October 23 2013 01:57 jdsowa wrote: Blizz can save this game if they: -reduce unit speeds across the board (and map size in certain cases) -triple the HP of all units (to encourage skirmishing, retreats, and mitigate problems associated with AOE) -lower max food count to 100 -add 7-10 new units per race -add neutral mercenary units -add unit upgrades/leveling system to increase variety -make maps feel less flat and more immersive by adding shops, dynamic weather/terrain, breakable tiles (not just rocks), trees and other elevated environmental aspects to add more of a vertical dimension -a F2P model could be implemented where new units and upgrades are rotated for free, but purchasable/unlockable at any time; at the very least, provide an option to customize the appearance of units with visual upgrades Wouldn't that just be Warcraft 3.5? | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
I really don't mind the idea of Warcraft 4 having kingdoms instead of "races" Ironforge, Stormwind, Darnassus, Undercity, Ogrimmar, etc... have about 9-12 "factions" And instead of Heroes, you choose alliances. Each faction having about 15ish unit choices but alliances caps you at 20ish unit choices allowing you to mix and match as needed. | ||
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McRatyn
Poland901 Posts
On October 23 2013 03:11 Thieving Magpie wrote: I really don't mind the idea of Warcraft 4 having kingdoms instead of "races" Ironforge, Stormwind, Darnassus, Undercity, Ogrimmar, etc... have about 9-12 "factions" And instead of Heroes, you choose alliances. Each faction having about 15ish unit choices but alliances caps you at 20ish unit choices allowing you to mix and match as needed. I get you, I'd like to see WC4 also, what I'm implying is that we should look for changes in SC2 within the confines of features that "make Starcraft Starcraft". Heros and 100 supply are exactly the opposite i.e. "things that make Warcraft Warcraft". It just seemed to me like jdsowa wanted to make SC2 more Warcrafty which I don't believe to be a good idea, that's all  | ||
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Operator[SP]
United States4 Posts
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 23 2013 03:20 McRatyn wrote: I get you, I'd like to see WC4 also, what I'm implying is that we should look for changes in SC2 within the confines of features that "make Starcraft Starcraft". Heros and 100 supply are exactly the opposite i.e. "things that make Warcraft Warcraft". It just seemed to me like jdsowa wanted to make SC2 more Warcrafty which I don't believe to be a good idea, that's all We are in agreement then hence why I said I wouldn't mind Warcraft 4 + Show Spoiler +I'd buy the shit out of that game If they tried to make a hero centric game filled with gimmicky units it wouldn't be Stracraft. It'd be the SC2 campaign, but fuck no would it be starcraft. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 23 2013 03:24 Operator[SP] wrote: The problem is self entitled individuals that complain about a game blizzard put a lot of hard work into. I played some bad games in the 90's and let me tell you SC2 is fine as it is. There are kids in Africa that cant even play this, shouldn't that send a message to you that you're oversimplifying the situation here? If my kid was this haughty I would've given him a spanking a long time ago. If you think you can do better, why don't you create your own game? Fuck ending the civil war, genocide, and racial strife in africa--send them PC's with Broodwar, Peace in Africa one proleague at a time! | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On October 23 2013 02:34 lolfail9001 wrote: As much as i hear these statements about volatility of the game, as much i have no clue what do saying that mean under that. Yes, this game is ******* impossible to come back, and probably that need of keeping yourself in game 90% of time is rather stressing. But i am certainly not sure about volatility. For me, volatility means a lot of strategies are super punishing. You have hellions in your mineral line? You're gonna lose a lot of stuff. Didn't scout DT/Oracle? You're dead. Stimmed marine drop in your mineral line during an engagement? lol @ your economy. It just feels like it's one or the other, and there's very little room for well that was OKAY. It's better at the pro level than on ladder but I think that can be something super frustrating and stressful to play against. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 23 2013 03:49 Chaggi wrote: For me, volatility means a lot of strategies are super punishing. You have hellions in your mineral line? You're gonna lose a lot of stuff. Didn't scout DT/Oracle? You're dead. Stimmed marine drop in your mineral line during an engagement? lol @ your economy. It just feels like it's one or the other, and there's very little room for well that was OKAY. It's better at the pro level than on ladder but I think that can be something super frustrating and stressful to play against. Super punishing is absolutely correct term though, yeah. | ||
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echobong
Canada92 Posts
On October 23 2013 02:34 lolfail9001 wrote: As much as i hear these statements about volatility of the game, as much i have no clue what do saying that mean under that. Yes, this game is ******* impossible to come back, and probably that need of keeping yourself in game 90% of time is rather stressing. But i am certainly not sure about volatility. I think the best example of volatility in the game is when I make a small engagement and it truly accidentally wins me the game. The speed and efficiency in which armies can collide and basically cause the 'impossible comeback' scenario is so high. Just imagine if the basic punch in a street fighter game took down your opponents health by 70%. That's what people mean by volatile. | ||
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shivver
United States232 Posts
On October 23 2013 03:24 Operator[SP] wrote: The problem is self entitled individuals that complain about a game blizzard put a lot of hard work into. I played some bad games in the 90's and let me tell you SC2 is fine as it is. There are kids in Africa that cant even play this, shouldn't that send a message to you that you're oversimplifying the situation here? If my kid was this haughty I would've given him a spanking a long time ago. If you think you can do better, why don't you create your own game? brb guys no is allowed to criticize ever again such a stupid a post there's kids in africa that can't eat at golden corral, I guess I shouldn't complain about the hair in my food or the meat that is hardly cooked | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On October 23 2013 20:45 echobong wrote: I think the best example of volatility in the game is when I make a small engagement and it truly accidentally wins me the game. The speed and efficiency in which armies can collide and basically cause the 'impossible comeback' scenario is so high. Just imagine if the basic punch in a street fighter game took down your opponents health by 70%. That's what people mean by volatile. I've had that happen more than once, i spread out my stuff, wait for the best moment I can find, attack, immediately start queuing up a new round of units from my hatcheries, then all of sudden "GG" and the game ends. I basically a-moved and threw a few fungals, I didn't have time to do anything before the other guy's army melted. It felt very strange, not exactly a huge sense of accomplishment. When I played BW I felt like I was trying to do very complex dance routine, when I play SC2 it's like I'm trying to juggle hand grenades. | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
1. Economies tuned for the tiny maps at the start of WoL. 2. Warpgate. Small maps are quick to cross. Maps that are quick to cross mean that there is very little time to squeeze in extra economy before you need to repel an aggressive enemy. To compensate for this, economies were tuned to grow very rapidly so that cutting workers for early aggression would have meaningful consequences. On today's larger maps, greedy players get more time to react. But economies and production grow at the same rate they always have, so the same attack off the same number of workers moving out at the same time will encounter an enemy with a better economy and more defences. Thus the margin of viability for early aggression is squeezed. All that's left is: a) Proxy cheese b) Light pressure (eg a reaper or two, four hellions) c) Denial of the third/hitting a timing before the third is up and running Attempts to encourage more early aggression fail because any unit or composition capable of overcoming the economic disadvantages is ipso facto imbalanced (Warhound, the original hellbat drops). The best we can hope for is light pressure that can accidentally win games (hellion runbys, oracles etc). Unfortunately, none of this is fixable because of warpgate. Economies and production cannot be re-tuned for larger maps because all maps are 32x32 as far as Protosses are concerned. | ||
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projectChaos
154 Posts
It hasn`t the huge fanbase like LoL, but SC2 has an unique community of "real" eSport fans, while LoL gets a lot of casual players, who like the game because it`s free and easy to play. I`ve tried HoN (it`s a DOTA-game like LoL) for some time and i can`t remember a game without people flaming. It`s a conglumeration of trolls and trash. I do not want this to happen to SC2. I compliment you on your efforts trying to analyze and write some stuff... but Blizzard shouldn`t listen to a word of that. With the experience they`ve got, I`m pretty sute they won`t. They are creating eSport for more than a decade... do you think a boy in his mid twenties can teach `em? | ||
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MrLightning
306 Posts
On October 24 2013 00:25 projectChaos wrote: Blizzard is doing fine by ignoring you whiners, because StarCraft2 is good as it is right now. If you don`t like it, try another game. Did you ever think about the people loving sc2, when you criticize it, wanting too many changes? We had like over 30k viewers on a small european challenger league yesterday and 100k viewers on the finals. This is allready way more than 2012. Where is the f**king problem ? You don`t like it as much as Broodwar, because you grew up with that game. So what? I couldn`t watch Broodwar for 5 minutes. It hasn`t the huge fanbase like LoL, but SC2 has an unique community of "real" eSport fans, while LoL gets a lot of casual players, who like the game because it`s free and easy to play. I`ve tried HoN (it`s a DOTA-game like LoL) for some time and i can`t remember a game without people flaming. It`s a conglumeration of trolls and trash. I do not want this to happen to SC2. I compliment you on your efforts trying to analyze and write some stuff... but Blizzard shouldn`t listen to a word of that. With the experience they`ve got, I`m pretty sute they won`t. They are creating eSport for more than a decade... do you think a boy in his mid twenties can teach `em? Mid-twenties? Really? I always get the impression that the TL forum 'regulars' are WhiteRa's generation if not older. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On October 24 2013 00:25 projectChaos wrote: Blizzard is doing fine by ignoring you whiners, because StarCraft2 is good as it is right now. If you don`t like it, try another game. Did you ever think about the people loving sc2, when you criticize it, wanting too many changes? We had like over 30k viewers on a small european challenger league yesterday and 100k viewers on the finals. This is allready way more than 2012. Where is the f**king problem ? You don`t like it as much as Broodwar, because you grew up with that game. So what? I couldn`t watch Broodwar for 5 minutes. It hasn`t the huge fanbase like LoL, but SC2 has an unique community of "real" eSport fans, while LoL gets a lot of casual players, who like the game because it`s free and easy to play. I`ve tried HoN (it`s a DOTA-game like LoL) for some time and i can`t remember a game without people flaming. It`s a conglumeration of trolls and trash. I do not want this to happen to SC2. I compliment you on your efforts trying to analyze and write some stuff... but Blizzard shouldn`t listen to a word of that. With the experience they`ve got, I`m pretty sute they won`t. They are creating eSport for more than a decade... do you think a boy in his mid twenties can teach `em? oh where do I even start... If you actually read what we write, and follow what some of us have written about it, you can see that a lot of us don't really want SC2 to be like BW v2. There are a lot of great qualities about BW that could be taken into account and make the game more interesting for both the viewer and the player. Things like yesterday's Swarm Host/Viper vs Protoss Deathball was just stupid. There are a lot of designs of units that simply don't make sense. People have been complaining about how necessary AoE is for Protoss since WoL Beta. Not only can Blizzard learn from the community, they absolutely should and they should be more open in how they're looking at these issues. A game developer can't make an "eSport" alone, it has to be a combined effort with the community. One of the easiest examples of this is GameHeart's custom viewer UI which was not something Blizzard had ever really done, but it's used in virtually every large tournament, or at least the concept of it is, now. And when you say Blizzard had been creating "esports for more than a decade..." that's not true. BW absolutely got lucked into. They didn't do any patches past the first year or two and the rest was done by maps. They got incredibly lucky that bugs were in there to make the game more deep than it realistically should've been for a game created around that time. | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On October 24 2013 00:25 projectChaos wrote: Blizzard is doing fine by ignoring you whiners, because StarCraft2 is good as it is right now. If you don`t like it, try another game. Did you ever think about the people loving sc2, when you criticize it, wanting too many changes? We had like over 30k viewers on a small european challenger league yesterday and 100k viewers on the finals. This is allready way more than 2012. Where is the f**king problem ? You don`t like it as much as Broodwar, because you grew up with that game. So what? I couldn`t watch Broodwar for 5 minutes. It hasn`t the huge fanbase like LoL, but SC2 has an unique community of "real" eSport fans, while LoL gets a lot of casual players, who like the game because it`s free and easy to play. I`ve tried HoN (it`s a DOTA-game like LoL) for some time and i can`t remember a game without people flaming. It`s a conglumeration of trolls and trash. I do not want this to happen to SC2. I compliment you on your efforts trying to analyze and write some stuff... but Blizzard shouldn`t listen to a word of that. With the experience they`ve got, I`m pretty sute they won`t. They are creating eSport for more than a decade... do you think a boy in his mid twenties can teach `em? You realize the people that made brood war had nothing to do with starcraft 2 and vice versa? It's a completely different team. Also, there is a scale of grey between hating the game and loving it. We like some things about the game and dislike others, that's the f**king problem. You're welcome. Brood war became what it was because it had a strong community and external infrastructure, not because of blizzard. You know, guys in their teens up to mid twenties? Really, if you're going to randomly and incoherently rant, at least try to get some basic stuff right first. | ||
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