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Northern Ireland23772 Posts
My sig is the shit yo/I have nothing to replace it with/I'm not posting on TL all that often.
Is WoW still counted as canon man? Eugh, I hate when franchises start going into spinoff books etc as well, right headfuck.
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On October 09 2013 03:29 Wombat_NI wrote:
My sig is the shit yo/I have nothing to replace it with/I'm not posting on TL all that often.
Is WoW still counted as canon man? Eugh, I hate when franchises start going into spinoff books etc as well, right headfuck.
Your sig is awesome.
I should know.
I wrote it.
All I know about wow these days is that I have a weird fetish for female trolls. Something about the tusks. I think if everyone in HotS had tusks I'd be ok with the single player.
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Northern Ireland23772 Posts
My sig shall remain until your new incarnation comes up with something similarly erudite.
I had my suspicions it was you, somewhat confirmed by the troll fetish.
Nah, my main gripe with modern games is 'cinematic' things like string sections playing over everything argh. Granted it's not all games ofc.
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On October 09 2013 03:39 Wombat_NI wrote:
My sig shall remain until your new incarnation comes up with something similarly erudite.
I had my suspicions it was you, somewhat confirmed by the troll fetish.
Nah, my main gripe with modern games is 'cinematic' things like string sections playing over everything argh. Granted it's not all games ofc.
First generation single player games: "Here's some stuff. Good luck dipshit."
Second generation single player games: "Here are your units, your buildings, and here is how you use them. Good luck brave champion!"
Current generation single player games: 6 hours of cutscenes. Press down and F to own bad dude. Final cinematic.
SC2 single player felt like a kindergarten version of the real game, it felt completely disconnected from the actual game. It was basically a sobstory about two people who used to be cool and are now flaccid and painfully stereotyped.
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They're trying to be a serious form of art. Clearly, that means imitating Michael Bay movies - pretty much the most banal form of entertainment Hollywood can come up with, or doing incredibly pretentious indie bs that typically amounts to a puzzle platformer with nothing but lame puzzles to do and an odd art style just because. Basically, the laziest possible games ever. All totally forget that the purpose of a game is to fire up the player's imagination, not so much shove the creator's vision down the player's throat.
On October 09 2013 03:45 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 03:39 Wombat_NI wrote:
My sig shall remain until your new incarnation comes up with something similarly erudite.
I had my suspicions it was you, somewhat confirmed by the troll fetish.
Nah, my main gripe with modern games is 'cinematic' things like string sections playing over everything argh. Granted it's not all games ofc. First generation single player games: "Here's some stuff. Good luck dipshit." Second generation single player games: "Here are your units, your buildings, and here is how you use them. Good luck brave champion!" Current generation single player games: 6 hours of cutscenes. Press down and F to own bad dude. Final cinematic. SC2 single player felt like a kindergarten version of the real game, it felt completely disconnected from the actual game. It was basically a sobstory about two people who used to be cool and are now flaccid and painfully stereotyped.
Never mind all the irrelevant things liek Raynor swearing to kill Kerrigan in BW, right? Because hack-written romance plots kick ass?
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Have there been any good, popular movies in the last ten years? (The Dark Knight is not a good movie edited out because of fear of backlash  ) Once marketing people figure out how to best exploit franchises for money you should no longer expect artistically valid results. There is always the most money in franchises anyway, since people are already attached to the characters and you can take advantage of the existing fanbase. Starcraft 2 has gone down this path, on some level the only thing Blizzard cares about is to (re)create certain iconic moments in the gameplay and story so they can hook the sort of (younger), casual player that will move on to another game but will remember those iconic moments.
Games used to be better because the marketing divisions were smaller and less competent. Blizzard's leadership in the 90's was actually purely money focused, but they didn't understand the creative aspects enough to try and influence them so the designers had free reign to create something interesting. Their minds weren't yet poisoned by modern ideas.
We'll see good games again once it becomes cheap for a small team to use existing assets for new design ideas.
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Everyone needs to calm down.
We have so many passionate SC2 fans that it's literally impossible for the game to die, in the west anyways, which is what matters.
If you think the gameplay is stale, wait until LotV is released. Blizzard are saving the best changes for last. It would be stupid of them not to. Well, you could say we were the stupid ones for being milked so hard, but at least we've enjoyed the expansions.
There were 100k+ spectators in WCS. Although that's less than LoL, they are incomparable. SC2 has the HIGHEST viewership for ANY RTS at the moment.
/thread
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Edit: Sorry for caps.
Seriously though, there is entirely too much whining going on. It's downright depressing coming onto TL and reading through this. I mean, what did you guys expect, for SC2 to beat out the likes of the NFL, EPL, MLB?
I for one am elated and happy when I tune in to see that 50+k people are watching SC2. I couldn't care less what other games get in terms of viewers, and neither should you. This is an unhealthy habit that I strongly recommend you get over. You have absolutely no control on what the general mass public will like, kind of like how you have no control on what your ex-girlfriend/boyfriend chooses to do.
Sitting around and bashing SC2 because so-and-so game is getting more viewers, or some nostalgic "BW is the best ever" approach (seriously what other games were out when BW was out that could compete?), just isn't healthy for the scene, and quite frankly shows that e-sports has a lot of growing up to do.
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On October 09 2013 03:50 flashimba wrote:
Everyone needs to calm down.
We have so many passionate SC2 fans that it's literally impossible for the game to die, in the west anyways, which is what matters.
If you think the gameplay is stale, wait until LotV is released. Blizzard are saving the best changes for last. It would be stupid of them not to. Well, you could say we were the stupid ones for being milked so hard, but at least we've enjoyed the expansions.
There were 100k+ spectators in WCS. Although that's less than LoL, they are incomparable. SC2 has the HIGHEST viewership for ANY RTS at the moment.
/thread
Saying you have the highest viewership of any RTS is like saying you are the best figure skater in all of Zimbabwe. There is no meaningful competition. Lack of competition breeds complacency. If there had been a new amazing RTS every two years post BW, SC2 would probably have been mind-blowingly awesome.
There is just no one making RTS right now, Blizzard basically could not fail with getting SC2 to the top. I just wish they would have acted like if they did have a blowtorch up their rectums, as if the success of SC2 truly depended on it blowing everything else out of the water, including BW. They seemed to have settled for a more comfortable, and probably easier, solution.
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On October 09 2013 04:01 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 03:50 flashimba wrote:
Everyone needs to calm down.
We have so many passionate SC2 fans that it's literally impossible for the game to die, in the west anyways, which is what matters.
If you think the gameplay is stale, wait until LotV is released. Blizzard are saving the best changes for last. It would be stupid of them not to. Well, you could say we were the stupid ones for being milked so hard, but at least we've enjoyed the expansions.
There were 100k+ spectators in WCS. Although that's less than LoL, they are incomparable. SC2 has the HIGHEST viewership for ANY RTS at the moment.
/thread Saying you have the highest viewership of any RTS is like saying you are the best figure skater in all of Zimbabwe. There is no meaningful competition. Lack of competition breeds complacency. If there had been a new amazing RTS every two years post BW, SC2 would probably have been mind-blowingly awesome. There is just no one making RTS right now, Blizzard basically could not fail with getting SC2 to the top. I just wish they would have acted like if they did have a blowtorch up their rectums, as if the success of SC2 truly depended on it blowing everything else out of the water, including BW. They seemed to have settled for a more comfortable, and probably easier, solution.
The next CnC is around the corner, Planetary Annihilation is out there, CnC 4 came out around the time of WoL, Settlers 7 too. SupCom 2 was released in 2010-11. Have not been following the Dawn of War releases, but DoW 2 shouldn't be that much older than SC2.
The games are there. They are just not topnotch like SC2 or like the Blizzard RTS games have been in general.
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On October 09 2013 04:32 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 04:01 Squat wrote:On October 09 2013 03:50 flashimba wrote:
Everyone needs to calm down.
We have so many passionate SC2 fans that it's literally impossible for the game to die, in the west anyways, which is what matters.
If you think the gameplay is stale, wait until LotV is released. Blizzard are saving the best changes for last. It would be stupid of them not to. Well, you could say we were the stupid ones for being milked so hard, but at least we've enjoyed the expansions.
There were 100k+ spectators in WCS. Although that's less than LoL, they are incomparable. SC2 has the HIGHEST viewership for ANY RTS at the moment.
/thread Saying you have the highest viewership of any RTS is like saying you are the best figure skater in all of Zimbabwe. There is no meaningful competition. Lack of competition breeds complacency. If there had been a new amazing RTS every two years post BW, SC2 would probably have been mind-blowingly awesome. There is just no one making RTS right now, Blizzard basically could not fail with getting SC2 to the top. I just wish they would have acted like if they did have a blowtorch up their rectums, as if the success of SC2 truly depended on it blowing everything else out of the water, including BW. They seemed to have settled for a more comfortable, and probably easier, solution. The next CnC is around the corner, Planetary Annihilation is out there, CnC 4 came out around the time of WoL, Settlers 7 too. SupCom 2 was released in 2010-11. Have not been following the Dawn of War releases, but DoW 2 shouldn't be that much older than SC2. The games are there. They are just not topnotch like SC2 or like the Blizzard RTS games have been in general.
Well yeah that was kind of my point, there are other titles, but no one is a credible challenger. People, until pushed to excel and do better, generally wont.
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On October 09 2013 04:01 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 03:50 flashimba wrote:
Everyone needs to calm down.
We have so many passionate SC2 fans that it's literally impossible for the game to die, in the west anyways, which is what matters.
If you think the gameplay is stale, wait until LotV is released. Blizzard are saving the best changes for last. It would be stupid of them not to. Well, you could say we were the stupid ones for being milked so hard, but at least we've enjoyed the expansions.
There were 100k+ spectators in WCS. Although that's less than LoL, they are incomparable. SC2 has the HIGHEST viewership for ANY RTS at the moment.
/thread Saying you have the highest viewership of any RTS is like saying you are the best figure skater in all of Zimbabwe. There is no meaningful competition. Lack of competition breeds complacency. If there had been a new amazing RTS every two years post BW, SC2 would probably have been mind-blowingly awesome. There is just no one making RTS right now, Blizzard basically could not fail with getting SC2 to the top. I just wish they would have acted like if they did have a blowtorch up their rectums, as if the success of SC2 truly depended on it blowing everything else out of the water, including BW. They seemed to have settled for a more comfortable, and probably easier, solution.
In terms of gameplay, sales and player retention, Starcraft 2 pretty much blew every other game out of the water. They did it so well that there hasn't been any serious competition for the past three years.
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On October 09 2013 04:51 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 04:32 Big J wrote:On October 09 2013 04:01 Squat wrote:On October 09 2013 03:50 flashimba wrote:
Everyone needs to calm down.
We have so many passionate SC2 fans that it's literally impossible for the game to die, in the west anyways, which is what matters.
If you think the gameplay is stale, wait until LotV is released. Blizzard are saving the best changes for last. It would be stupid of them not to. Well, you could say we were the stupid ones for being milked so hard, but at least we've enjoyed the expansions.
There were 100k+ spectators in WCS. Although that's less than LoL, they are incomparable. SC2 has the HIGHEST viewership for ANY RTS at the moment.
/thread Saying you have the highest viewership of any RTS is like saying you are the best figure skater in all of Zimbabwe. There is no meaningful competition. Lack of competition breeds complacency. If there had been a new amazing RTS every two years post BW, SC2 would probably have been mind-blowingly awesome. There is just no one making RTS right now, Blizzard basically could not fail with getting SC2 to the top. I just wish they would have acted like if they did have a blowtorch up their rectums, as if the success of SC2 truly depended on it blowing everything else out of the water, including BW. They seemed to have settled for a more comfortable, and probably easier, solution. The next CnC is around the corner, Planetary Annihilation is out there, CnC 4 came out around the time of WoL, Settlers 7 too. SupCom 2 was released in 2010-11. Have not been following the Dawn of War releases, but DoW 2 shouldn't be that much older than SC2. The games are there. They are just not topnotch like SC2 or like the Blizzard RTS games have been in general. Well yeah that was kind of my point, there are other titles, but no one is a credible challenger. People, until pushed to excel and do better, generally wont.
But thats what he said. in terms of RTS Starcraft2 is performing incredibly well. The challengers arent big, because the genre isnt big anymore.
Though one could say that the genre is bigger than it has ever been. Just that people prefer the innovative subgenre of Mobas while the rest of us is fighting over tiny details, whether forcefields are bad or whether mutalisks are 10% too fast.
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+ Show Spoiler + On October 09 2013 04:01 Squat wrote:On October 09 2013 03:50 flashimba wrote:
Everyone needs to calm down.
We have so many passionate SC2 fans that it's literally impossible for the game to die, in the west anyways, which is what matters.
If you think the gameplay is stale, wait until LotV is released. Blizzard are saving the best changes for last. It would be stupid of them not to. Well, you could say we were the stupid ones for being milked so hard, but at least we've enjoyed the expansions.
There were 100k+ spectators in WCS. Although that's less than LoL, they are incomparable. SC2 has the HIGHEST viewership for ANY RTS at the moment.
/thread highest viewership of any RTS is like saying you are the best figure skater in all of Zimbabwe. There is no meaningful competition. Lack of competition breeds complacency. If there had been a new amazing RTS every two years post BW, SC2 would probably have been mind-blowingly awesome. There is just no one making RTS right now, Blizzard basically could not fail with getting SC2 to the top. I just wish they would have acted like if they did have a blowtorch up their rectums, as if the success of SC2 truly depended on it blowing everything else out of the water, including BW. They seemed to have settled for a more comfortable, and probably easier, solution.
I would like to just redraw the comparison I made earlier in that it's not like being "the best figure skater in all of Zimbabwe" , it's like being the best One-Player competitive sport. Like comparing viewership of Tennis vs. Golf vs. Figure Skating vs. Gymnastics.
It's not fair to compare it to viewer numbers of MOBA or other team games (Football, Basketball, Soccer, World of Tanks) + Show Spoiler +I honestly cant understand how a game like World of Tanks competes at all, but whatever, I guess Cricket is also a thing
SC2 fanboys like myself are just going to have to accept that a niche 1v1 RTS style game is not going to be the top dawg e-sports netter. Just like diehard Golf fans have to accept that most people just don't care at all and they have to resort to discussing it with their country club buddies
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On October 09 2013 07:23 bombsauce wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I honestly cant understand how a game like World of Tanks competes at all, but whatever, I guess Cricket is also a thing
+ Show Spoiler +What?! Cricket is the best game in the world. The viewership numbers are huge (a good part from the Subcontinent). If you like baseball, you'll like cricket. Both are quite similar games; but comparatively, cricket is chess while baseball is checkers. But, I'm only joking. I get your point. 
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On October 09 2013 01:14 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 00:04 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:57 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On October 08 2013 23:37 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:33 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On October 08 2013 23:28 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:18 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:00 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 22:54 Kheve wrote:http://baseportal.de/baseportal.pl?htx=/MyTube/sctv/News_F2&db=Com_1&cid=334&uid=&sid=183966388624253118011888430722a 2007 news article on the rise of OGN rivaling free korean national broadcasters. That was how big it was. Ppl who have never been in korea who have never seen cybercafes in every corner of the block with 100-400 pcs all filled with ppl playing sc from kids to officeworkers who jes got off work and now gonna fight ea other to release stress will never comprehend how big sc was. Until the day when your companies marketing dept ask you whether its better to sponsor a traditional tournament/team or a game title, you have not seen esports. Company starcraft tournaments were also the norm. It was madness. Phenomenon as some call it. Comparing any other scene to BW back then (other than wat lol/dota is and might be) is sheer nonsense. Does any other gamer command salaries of 30k USD a month other than in BW? I high doubt it. Jaedong at his peak was commanding 300k pa. Michael Jordan he is not, but hey neither is any other gamer but BW pros come closest. Ofc the good times are past. Theres no longer millions of viewers. Everyone changed to lol. Samsung just bought a LOL team. All money goes to lol and here we are explaining why sc2 was the most brilliant thing blizzard ever did for 'esports' like they ever cared about anything but how much money they can make from the players of their game. In korea, its how much player can make from the game (and not a single cent came from the developer). ![[image loading]](http://seoulspace.co.kr/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/2009-final.jpeg) ![[image loading]](http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2011/12/31/211530.jpg) This picture says it all .. lol/dota hasn't topped this yet .. this isn't about prize money, it's not even about the number of viewers .. it's about acceptance .. SC2 wasn't accepted .. it was forced .. This is at Haeundae right? Having been to Busan, I'm not sure how many of them were actual fans and how people here count fans in the first place. To answer a question that was posted above, I have absolutely no idea how many people during the hayday of BW in Korea were watching, however, having lived here for awhile and talking with a lot of people about BW/SC2, it was big, but I think people here are overestimating. First off, while BW was undoubtly popular (everyone knows what it is, and to an extent, some of the units/players), who are the fans? Are the fans people who play/watch regularly? The ones who turn it on once in awhile? The Super Bowl for example had 111 million people watch during the Pats/Giants game but no one is saying that there are 111 million football fans. The picture at Haeundae is incredibly awesome and I know lots of people here were moved by it, but at the same time, stuff like that happens at Haeundae all the time (events), and while no, there's not regularly that many people there watching, I can guarantee that not everyone there is a fan and people who are watching are just people who happen to be at the beach at night. Which is a stupid amount of people in Korea. Secondly, people here are arguing for the depth of BW vs SC2 and that BW is more deep and whatever. I doubt really that many people knew the tricks of BW compared to what people here think. Just like in every game, there are people who are super interested and know the tricks inside out, but there's just as many people who play the game just to play it without knowing the magic of the reaver. Things like JD's muta micro is impressive to see and hard to pull off, but JD did a similar muta micro earlier in the year in SC2 against infestors that was just as impressive to see. I don't see anyone talking about that. That's not even to say that SC2 is deeper or better than BW, but that people are putting such a large emphesis on why SC2 is a "worse" game than BW. It's not, it's absolutely different. There are a lot of things that SC2 can learn from BW that would make it better but it's not a bad game like everyone is claiming. Finally people who use the fact that BW is so popular in Korea, and that SC2 killed it off or whatever and use the amount of fans of BW vs SC2 as proof is fundamentally flawed. What other competition was there for BW? Sudden Attack? Crazy Arcade? Seriously, there was nothing. Even if SC2 was never released, or hell, if SC2 was BW v2, it wouldn't have beaten LoL. I don't think people understand how not popular 1v1 games are. EVERYONE at PC Bang's plays multiplayer, I have never seen anyone in the last 3-4 years even attempt to play a 1v1 BW/SC2 game. And frankly it's just sad to see people call LoL a no skill boring etc etc game cause it's absolutely dominating. It would have dominated BW no question. To have people make these comparisons like they were 1:1 is just maddening and it helps nothing. We get it, BW fans hate SC2 fans. They hope SC2 dies or changes to be like BW. They want their heroes like Bisu to come back. But this scene is changing and has been changing regardless of BW. Come to Korea and this fact is as clear as day. To me, It's not about wanting SC2 to become BW nor BW going to come back again. Most BW fans know that it won't happen anymore. We also know that it wasn't just SC2 that killed BW. Kpop killed MBC Game, for example The thing is, many SC2 fans thinks SC2 is going to become famous internationally like how BW was famous in Korea and BW fans know that will never happen. Show me post of that? I havent readed anybody said that SC2 will have much teamhouses, full offline teamleagues and leagues. Or what do you mean with "famous" exactly? Can you open up that little bit? Did you follow the Kespa vs Blizzard lawsuits? Blizzard themselves wants Kespa organizers to play SC2 instead of BW with their current teams. What part of 'famous' do you not understand? Sure SC2 is famous but is it accepted? In your original post you said famous. How you count it? Overall, I think SC2 is more famous than BW has ever been. More people have heard of sc2 and saw it than BW. But that's not direct answer what you said. Is SC2 accepted? Yes it is. Im not sure what you mean with this? It's not less accepted that any other game. Do you mean is e-sport accepted? Have you seen girls stalking your favorite player when he went to a mall? Have you seen your favorite player's parent pray for you when you were playing in a tournament? Have you seen your favorite player on a advertisement that was sponsored by the country he is representing? Have you seen your favorite team being sponsored by a huge company that is remotely related to gaming? BW was accepted .. something SC2 will never truly become with how things are going on for it Fangirls stalking players is nothing special. They stalk everyone famous. They're called Sasaeng fans for a reason. Even they have their own Wikipedia page. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasaeng_fan). If you look at KeSPA vs eSF, you can't make that comparison because of how the teams are marketed. eSF teams were more focused on trying to get any sponsors at all. KeSPA teams already had the money, thus the fan clubs, thus the ability to have these fan events. Hell, I still have some stuff from the OSL Finals when it was Rain vs Maru and Soulkey vs Innovation and even among KeSPA teams, the amount of support from fans is completely different. Not sure what the second point is, but probably? People pray all the time for stuff The last two are related to how accepted BW was, but you're looking at it in a vaccum. What was competing with BW? Nothing at all. It came with the rise of the PC Bang's and had virtually no competition. It doesn't make any sense to put these two games side by side and compare them like this.
Fangirls stalking is not special? Where on earth do you see PC gamers being stalked by girls outside of korea?
the second one is how often do you see your parents support you on your decision to be a progamer when society thinks it's a waste of time and won't get you any further success in life?
BW was not competing with anything? because it was left unchallenged, there was no sudden dissatisfaction that came from the fans, they were still satisfied with the game. they just wanted other new stuff like Kpop. that and the external factors that led crumbling of its trustworthy foundation like Match Fixing and the idea that Blizzard wanted it to stop.
Let's try to get things in perspective here. BW is not the problem with SC2, BW fans celebrating SC2's imminent death is not the problem with SC2, SC2's apparent viewership decline is not the problem with SC2 ..
The problem with SC2 is it was forced to be come what BW 'was'. BW fans knew that by 2010, BW won't grow any further. SC2 fans on the other hand continue to ask why SC2 not succeeding like how BW succeeded. Because it was forced upon the community. We didn't have the time to appreciate the things that would have been good with the game. LoL was sure as hell wasn't forced. it was slowly accepted as a good, entertaining game.
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On October 09 2013 09:36 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 01:14 Chaggi wrote:On October 09 2013 00:04 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:57 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On October 08 2013 23:37 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:33 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On October 08 2013 23:28 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:18 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:00 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 22:54 Kheve wrote:http://baseportal.de/baseportal.pl?htx=/MyTube/sctv/News_F2&db=Com_1&cid=334&uid=&sid=183966388624253118011888430722a 2007 news article on the rise of OGN rivaling free korean national broadcasters. That was how big it was. Ppl who have never been in korea who have never seen cybercafes in every corner of the block with 100-400 pcs all filled with ppl playing sc from kids to officeworkers who jes got off work and now gonna fight ea other to release stress will never comprehend how big sc was. Until the day when your companies marketing dept ask you whether its better to sponsor a traditional tournament/team or a game title, you have not seen esports. Company starcraft tournaments were also the norm. It was madness. Phenomenon as some call it. Comparing any other scene to BW back then (other than wat lol/dota is and might be) is sheer nonsense. Does any other gamer command salaries of 30k USD a month other than in BW? I high doubt it. Jaedong at his peak was commanding 300k pa. Michael Jordan he is not, but hey neither is any other gamer but BW pros come closest. Ofc the good times are past. Theres no longer millions of viewers. Everyone changed to lol. Samsung just bought a LOL team. All money goes to lol and here we are explaining why sc2 was the most brilliant thing blizzard ever did for 'esports' like they ever cared about anything but how much money they can make from the players of their game. In korea, its how much player can make from the game (and not a single cent came from the developer). This picture says it all .. lol/dota hasn't topped this yet .. this isn't about prize money, it's not even about the number of viewers .. it's about acceptance .. SC2 wasn't accepted .. it was forced .. This is at Haeundae right? Having been to Busan, I'm not sure how many of them were actual fans and how people here count fans in the first place. To answer a question that was posted above, I have absolutely no idea how many people during the hayday of BW in Korea were watching, however, having lived here for awhile and talking with a lot of people about BW/SC2, it was big, but I think people here are overestimating. First off, while BW was undoubtly popular (everyone knows what it is, and to an extent, some of the units/players), who are the fans? Are the fans people who play/watch regularly? The ones who turn it on once in awhile? The Super Bowl for example had 111 million people watch during the Pats/Giants game but no one is saying that there are 111 million football fans. The picture at Haeundae is incredibly awesome and I know lots of people here were moved by it, but at the same time, stuff like that happens at Haeundae all the time (events), and while no, there's not regularly that many people there watching, I can guarantee that not everyone there is a fan and people who are watching are just people who happen to be at the beach at night. Which is a stupid amount of people in Korea. Secondly, people here are arguing for the depth of BW vs SC2 and that BW is more deep and whatever. I doubt really that many people knew the tricks of BW compared to what people here think. Just like in every game, there are people who are super interested and know the tricks inside out, but there's just as many people who play the game just to play it without knowing the magic of the reaver. Things like JD's muta micro is impressive to see and hard to pull off, but JD did a similar muta micro earlier in the year in SC2 against infestors that was just as impressive to see. I don't see anyone talking about that. That's not even to say that SC2 is deeper or better than BW, but that people are putting such a large emphesis on why SC2 is a "worse" game than BW. It's not, it's absolutely different. There are a lot of things that SC2 can learn from BW that would make it better but it's not a bad game like everyone is claiming. Finally people who use the fact that BW is so popular in Korea, and that SC2 killed it off or whatever and use the amount of fans of BW vs SC2 as proof is fundamentally flawed. What other competition was there for BW? Sudden Attack? Crazy Arcade? Seriously, there was nothing. Even if SC2 was never released, or hell, if SC2 was BW v2, it wouldn't have beaten LoL. I don't think people understand how not popular 1v1 games are. EVERYONE at PC Bang's plays multiplayer, I have never seen anyone in the last 3-4 years even attempt to play a 1v1 BW/SC2 game. And frankly it's just sad to see people call LoL a no skill boring etc etc game cause it's absolutely dominating. It would have dominated BW no question. To have people make these comparisons like they were 1:1 is just maddening and it helps nothing. We get it, BW fans hate SC2 fans. They hope SC2 dies or changes to be like BW. They want their heroes like Bisu to come back. But this scene is changing and has been changing regardless of BW. Come to Korea and this fact is as clear as day. To me, It's not about wanting SC2 to become BW nor BW going to come back again. Most BW fans know that it won't happen anymore. We also know that it wasn't just SC2 that killed BW. Kpop killed MBC Game, for example The thing is, many SC2 fans thinks SC2 is going to become famous internationally like how BW was famous in Korea and BW fans know that will never happen. Show me post of that? I havent readed anybody said that SC2 will have much teamhouses, full offline teamleagues and leagues. Or what do you mean with "famous" exactly? Can you open up that little bit? Did you follow the Kespa vs Blizzard lawsuits? Blizzard themselves wants Kespa organizers to play SC2 instead of BW with their current teams. What part of 'famous' do you not understand? Sure SC2 is famous but is it accepted? In your original post you said famous. How you count it? Overall, I think SC2 is more famous than BW has ever been. More people have heard of sc2 and saw it than BW. But that's not direct answer what you said. Is SC2 accepted? Yes it is. Im not sure what you mean with this? It's not less accepted that any other game. Do you mean is e-sport accepted? Have you seen girls stalking your favorite player when he went to a mall? Have you seen your favorite player's parent pray for you when you were playing in a tournament? Have you seen your favorite player on a advertisement that was sponsored by the country he is representing? Have you seen your favorite team being sponsored by a huge company that is remotely related to gaming? BW was accepted .. something SC2 will never truly become with how things are going on for it Fangirls stalking players is nothing special. They stalk everyone famous. They're called Sasaeng fans for a reason. Even they have their own Wikipedia page. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasaeng_fan). If you look at KeSPA vs eSF, you can't make that comparison because of how the teams are marketed. eSF teams were more focused on trying to get any sponsors at all. KeSPA teams already had the money, thus the fan clubs, thus the ability to have these fan events. Hell, I still have some stuff from the OSL Finals when it was Rain vs Maru and Soulkey vs Innovation and even among KeSPA teams, the amount of support from fans is completely different. Not sure what the second point is, but probably? People pray all the time for stuff The last two are related to how accepted BW was, but you're looking at it in a vaccum. What was competing with BW? Nothing at all. It came with the rise of the PC Bang's and had virtually no competition. It doesn't make any sense to put these two games side by side and compare them like this. Fangirls stalking is not special? Where on earth do you see PC gamers being stalked by girls outside of korea? the second one is how often do you see your parents support you on your decision to be a progamer when society thinks it's a waste of time and won't get you any further success in life? BW was not competing with anything? because it was left unchallenged, there was no sudden dissatisfaction that came from the fans, they were still satisfied with the game. they just wanted other new stuff like Kpop. that and the external factors that led crumbling of its trustworthy foundation like Match Fixing and the idea that Blizzard wanted it to stop. Let's try to get things in perspective here. BW is not the problem with SC2, BW fans celebrating SC2's imminent death is not the problem with SC2, SC2's apparent viewership decline is not the problem with SC2 .. The problem with SC2 is it was forced to be come what BW 'was'. BW fans knew that by 2010, BW won't grow any further. SC2 fans on the other hand continue to ask why SC2 not succeeding like how BW succeeded. Because it was forced upon the community. We didn't have the time to appreciate the things that would have been good with the game. LoL was sure as hell wasn't forced. it was slowly accepted as a good, entertaining game.
Fangirl stalking is not special at all within the confines of Korean celebrity culture. It says you're from North Korea, but if you're Korean/know Korean, go to Naver and search about it, it's really not special.
Second, eSports is a type of job, and parents, believe it or not, can support their children even if they don't believe that it's something that's gonna be super successful. It happens.
You talk as if SC2 was forced down Korea's throat or the community's throat and I have no idea what you're trying to say with that. How has it been forced? Did Blizzard put a gun to your head and force you to play? SC2 didn't succeed in Korea in the same way as BW did for a variety of reasons, which I listed in a previous post. Comparing BW and SC2 is just foolish because not only are they two different games based on two different styles (look at Magpie's post in blog) but the fact that they took place in two completely different eSports/competitive environments.
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On October 09 2013 09:55 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 09:36 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 09 2013 01:14 Chaggi wrote:On October 09 2013 00:04 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:57 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On October 08 2013 23:37 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:33 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On October 08 2013 23:28 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:18 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:00 shaftofpleasure wrote:[quote] This picture says it all .. lol/dota hasn't topped this yet .. this isn't about prize money, it's not even about the number of viewers .. it's about acceptance .. SC2 wasn't accepted .. it was forced .. This is at Haeundae right? Having been to Busan, I'm not sure how many of them were actual fans and how people here count fans in the first place. To answer a question that was posted above, I have absolutely no idea how many people during the hayday of BW in Korea were watching, however, having lived here for awhile and talking with a lot of people about BW/SC2, it was big, but I think people here are overestimating. First off, while BW was undoubtly popular (everyone knows what it is, and to an extent, some of the units/players), who are the fans? Are the fans people who play/watch regularly? The ones who turn it on once in awhile? The Super Bowl for example had 111 million people watch during the Pats/Giants game but no one is saying that there are 111 million football fans. The picture at Haeundae is incredibly awesome and I know lots of people here were moved by it, but at the same time, stuff like that happens at Haeundae all the time (events), and while no, there's not regularly that many people there watching, I can guarantee that not everyone there is a fan and people who are watching are just people who happen to be at the beach at night. Which is a stupid amount of people in Korea. Secondly, people here are arguing for the depth of BW vs SC2 and that BW is more deep and whatever. I doubt really that many people knew the tricks of BW compared to what people here think. Just like in every game, there are people who are super interested and know the tricks inside out, but there's just as many people who play the game just to play it without knowing the magic of the reaver. Things like JD's muta micro is impressive to see and hard to pull off, but JD did a similar muta micro earlier in the year in SC2 against infestors that was just as impressive to see. I don't see anyone talking about that. That's not even to say that SC2 is deeper or better than BW, but that people are putting such a large emphesis on why SC2 is a "worse" game than BW. It's not, it's absolutely different. There are a lot of things that SC2 can learn from BW that would make it better but it's not a bad game like everyone is claiming. Finally people who use the fact that BW is so popular in Korea, and that SC2 killed it off or whatever and use the amount of fans of BW vs SC2 as proof is fundamentally flawed. What other competition was there for BW? Sudden Attack? Crazy Arcade? Seriously, there was nothing. Even if SC2 was never released, or hell, if SC2 was BW v2, it wouldn't have beaten LoL. I don't think people understand how not popular 1v1 games are. EVERYONE at PC Bang's plays multiplayer, I have never seen anyone in the last 3-4 years even attempt to play a 1v1 BW/SC2 game. And frankly it's just sad to see people call LoL a no skill boring etc etc game cause it's absolutely dominating. It would have dominated BW no question. To have people make these comparisons like they were 1:1 is just maddening and it helps nothing. We get it, BW fans hate SC2 fans. They hope SC2 dies or changes to be like BW. They want their heroes like Bisu to come back. But this scene is changing and has been changing regardless of BW. Come to Korea and this fact is as clear as day. To me, It's not about wanting SC2 to become BW nor BW going to come back again. Most BW fans know that it won't happen anymore. We also know that it wasn't just SC2 that killed BW. Kpop killed MBC Game, for example The thing is, many SC2 fans thinks SC2 is going to become famous internationally like how BW was famous in Korea and BW fans know that will never happen. Show me post of that? I havent readed anybody said that SC2 will have much teamhouses, full offline teamleagues and leagues. Or what do you mean with "famous" exactly? Can you open up that little bit? Did you follow the Kespa vs Blizzard lawsuits? Blizzard themselves wants Kespa organizers to play SC2 instead of BW with their current teams. What part of 'famous' do you not understand? Sure SC2 is famous but is it accepted? In your original post you said famous. How you count it? Overall, I think SC2 is more famous than BW has ever been. More people have heard of sc2 and saw it than BW. But that's not direct answer what you said. Is SC2 accepted? Yes it is. Im not sure what you mean with this? It's not less accepted that any other game. Do you mean is e-sport accepted? Have you seen girls stalking your favorite player when he went to a mall? Have you seen your favorite player's parent pray for you when you were playing in a tournament? Have you seen your favorite player on a advertisement that was sponsored by the country he is representing? Have you seen your favorite team being sponsored by a huge company that is remotely related to gaming? BW was accepted .. something SC2 will never truly become with how things are going on for it Fangirls stalking players is nothing special. They stalk everyone famous. They're called Sasaeng fans for a reason. Even they have their own Wikipedia page. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasaeng_fan). If you look at KeSPA vs eSF, you can't make that comparison because of how the teams are marketed. eSF teams were more focused on trying to get any sponsors at all. KeSPA teams already had the money, thus the fan clubs, thus the ability to have these fan events. Hell, I still have some stuff from the OSL Finals when it was Rain vs Maru and Soulkey vs Innovation and even among KeSPA teams, the amount of support from fans is completely different. Not sure what the second point is, but probably? People pray all the time for stuff The last two are related to how accepted BW was, but you're looking at it in a vaccum. What was competing with BW? Nothing at all. It came with the rise of the PC Bang's and had virtually no competition. It doesn't make any sense to put these two games side by side and compare them like this. Fangirls stalking is not special? Where on earth do you see PC gamers being stalked by girls outside of korea? the second one is how often do you see your parents support you on your decision to be a progamer when society thinks it's a waste of time and won't get you any further success in life? BW was not competing with anything? because it was left unchallenged, there was no sudden dissatisfaction that came from the fans, they were still satisfied with the game. they just wanted other new stuff like Kpop. that and the external factors that led crumbling of its trustworthy foundation like Match Fixing and the idea that Blizzard wanted it to stop. Let's try to get things in perspective here. BW is not the problem with SC2, BW fans celebrating SC2's imminent death is not the problem with SC2, SC2's apparent viewership decline is not the problem with SC2 .. The problem with SC2 is it was forced to be come what BW 'was'. BW fans knew that by 2010, BW won't grow any further. SC2 fans on the other hand continue to ask why SC2 not succeeding like how BW succeeded. Because it was forced upon the community. We didn't have the time to appreciate the things that would have been good with the game. LoL was sure as hell wasn't forced. it was slowly accepted as a good, entertaining game. Fangirl stalking is not special at all within the confines of Korean celebrity culture. It says you're from North Korea, but if you're Korean/know Korean, go to Naver and search about it, it's really not special. Second, eSports is a type of job, and parents, believe it or not, can support their children even if they don't believe that it's something that's gonna be super successful. It happens. You talk as if SC2 was forced down Korea's throat or the community's throat and I have no idea what you're trying to say with that. How has it been forced? Did Blizzard put a gun to your head and force you to play? SC2 didn't succeed in Korea in the same way as BW did for a variety of reasons, which I listed in a previous post. Comparing BW and SC2 is just foolish because not only are they two different games based on two different styles (look at Magpie's post in blog) but the fact that they took place in two completely different eSports/competitive environments.
Fangirl stalking is special to e-sports in that it means there are casual fans who don't play the game watching the game, which is the ultimate goal.
But I agree with the rest of your post. I think most of the whining in this thread is mostly disappointed expectations that SC2 was supposed to be bigger than BW and close to mainstream at this point.
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On October 09 2013 10:10 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 09:55 Chaggi wrote:On October 09 2013 09:36 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 09 2013 01:14 Chaggi wrote:On October 09 2013 00:04 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:57 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On October 08 2013 23:37 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:33 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On October 08 2013 23:28 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:18 Chaggi wrote:
[quote]
This is at Haeundae right? Having been to Busan, I'm not sure how many of them were actual fans and how people here count fans in the first place. To answer a question that was posted above, I have absolutely no idea how many people during the hayday of BW in Korea were watching, however, having lived here for awhile and talking with a lot of people about BW/SC2, it was big, but I think people here are overestimating. First off, while BW was undoubtly popular (everyone knows what it is, and to an extent, some of the units/players), who are the fans? Are the fans people who play/watch regularly? The ones who turn it on once in awhile? The Super Bowl for example had 111 million people watch during the Pats/Giants game but no one is saying that there are 111 million football fans. The picture at Haeundae is incredibly awesome and I know lots of people here were moved by it, but at the same time, stuff like that happens at Haeundae all the time (events), and while no, there's not regularly that many people there watching, I can guarantee that not everyone there is a fan and people who are watching are just people who happen to be at the beach at night. Which is a stupid amount of people in Korea.
Secondly, people here are arguing for the depth of BW vs SC2 and that BW is more deep and whatever. I doubt really that many people knew the tricks of BW compared to what people here think. Just like in every game, there are people who are super interested and know the tricks inside out, but there's just as many people who play the game just to play it without knowing the magic of the reaver. Things like JD's muta micro is impressive to see and hard to pull off, but JD did a similar muta micro earlier in the year in SC2 against infestors that was just as impressive to see. I don't see anyone talking about that. That's not even to say that SC2 is deeper or better than BW, but that people are putting such a large emphesis on why SC2 is a "worse" game than BW. It's not, it's absolutely different. There are a lot of things that SC2 can learn from BW that would make it better but it's not a bad game like everyone is claiming.
Finally people who use the fact that BW is so popular in Korea, and that SC2 killed it off or whatever and use the amount of fans of BW vs SC2 as proof is fundamentally flawed. What other competition was there for BW? Sudden Attack? Crazy Arcade? Seriously, there was nothing. Even if SC2 was never released, or hell, if SC2 was BW v2, it wouldn't have beaten LoL. I don't think people understand how not popular 1v1 games are. EVERYONE at PC Bang's plays multiplayer, I have never seen anyone in the last 3-4 years even attempt to play a 1v1 BW/SC2 game. And frankly it's just sad to see people call LoL a no skill boring etc etc game cause it's absolutely dominating. It would have dominated BW no question. To have people make these comparisons like they were 1:1 is just maddening and it helps nothing. We get it, BW fans hate SC2 fans. They hope SC2 dies or changes to be like BW. They want their heroes like Bisu to come back. But this scene is changing and has been changing regardless of BW. Come to Korea and this fact is as clear as day. To me, It's not about wanting SC2 to become BW nor BW going to come back again. Most BW fans know that it won't happen anymore. We also know that it wasn't just SC2 that killed BW. Kpop killed MBC Game, for example The thing is, many SC2 fans thinks SC2 is going to become famous internationally like how BW was famous in Korea and BW fans know that will never happen. Show me post of that? I havent readed anybody said that SC2 will have much teamhouses, full offline teamleagues and leagues. Or what do you mean with "famous" exactly? Can you open up that little bit? Did you follow the Kespa vs Blizzard lawsuits? Blizzard themselves wants Kespa organizers to play SC2 instead of BW with their current teams. What part of 'famous' do you not understand? Sure SC2 is famous but is it accepted? In your original post you said famous. How you count it? Overall, I think SC2 is more famous than BW has ever been. More people have heard of sc2 and saw it than BW. But that's not direct answer what you said. Is SC2 accepted? Yes it is. Im not sure what you mean with this? It's not less accepted that any other game. Do you mean is e-sport accepted? Have you seen girls stalking your favorite player when he went to a mall? Have you seen your favorite player's parent pray for you when you were playing in a tournament? Have you seen your favorite player on a advertisement that was sponsored by the country he is representing? Have you seen your favorite team being sponsored by a huge company that is remotely related to gaming? BW was accepted .. something SC2 will never truly become with how things are going on for it Fangirls stalking players is nothing special. They stalk everyone famous. They're called Sasaeng fans for a reason. Even they have their own Wikipedia page. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasaeng_fan). If you look at KeSPA vs eSF, you can't make that comparison because of how the teams are marketed. eSF teams were more focused on trying to get any sponsors at all. KeSPA teams already had the money, thus the fan clubs, thus the ability to have these fan events. Hell, I still have some stuff from the OSL Finals when it was Rain vs Maru and Soulkey vs Innovation and even among KeSPA teams, the amount of support from fans is completely different. Not sure what the second point is, but probably? People pray all the time for stuff The last two are related to how accepted BW was, but you're looking at it in a vaccum. What was competing with BW? Nothing at all. It came with the rise of the PC Bang's and had virtually no competition. It doesn't make any sense to put these two games side by side and compare them like this. Fangirls stalking is not special? Where on earth do you see PC gamers being stalked by girls outside of korea? the second one is how often do you see your parents support you on your decision to be a progamer when society thinks it's a waste of time and won't get you any further success in life? BW was not competing with anything? because it was left unchallenged, there was no sudden dissatisfaction that came from the fans, they were still satisfied with the game. they just wanted other new stuff like Kpop. that and the external factors that led crumbling of its trustworthy foundation like Match Fixing and the idea that Blizzard wanted it to stop. Let's try to get things in perspective here. BW is not the problem with SC2, BW fans celebrating SC2's imminent death is not the problem with SC2, SC2's apparent viewership decline is not the problem with SC2 .. The problem with SC2 is it was forced to be come what BW 'was'. BW fans knew that by 2010, BW won't grow any further. SC2 fans on the other hand continue to ask why SC2 not succeeding like how BW succeeded. Because it was forced upon the community. We didn't have the time to appreciate the things that would have been good with the game. LoL was sure as hell wasn't forced. it was slowly accepted as a good, entertaining game. Fangirl stalking is not special at all within the confines of Korean celebrity culture. It says you're from North Korea, but if you're Korean/know Korean, go to Naver and search about it, it's really not special. Second, eSports is a type of job, and parents, believe it or not, can support their children even if they don't believe that it's something that's gonna be super successful. It happens. You talk as if SC2 was forced down Korea's throat or the community's throat and I have no idea what you're trying to say with that. How has it been forced? Did Blizzard put a gun to your head and force you to play? SC2 didn't succeed in Korea in the same way as BW did for a variety of reasons, which I listed in a previous post. Comparing BW and SC2 is just foolish because not only are they two different games based on two different styles (look at Magpie's post in blog) but the fact that they took place in two completely different eSports/competitive environments. Fangirl stalking is special to e-sports in that it means there are casual fans who don't play the game watching the game, which is the ultimate goal. But I agree with the rest of your post. I think most of the whining in this thread is mostly disappointed expectations that SC2 was supposed to be bigger than BW and close to mainstream at this point.
I don't know about that, fan girl stalking is a pretty prominent part of celebrity life in Korea. E-sports in Korea is just unique enough that being good at a game means you are a celebrity of sorts.
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On October 09 2013 03:50 flashimba wrote:
Everyone needs to calm down.
We have so many passionate SC2 fans that it's literally impossible for the game to die, in the west anyways, which is what matters.
If you think the gameplay is stale, wait until LotV is released. Blizzard are saving the best changes for last. It would be stupid of them not to. Well, you could say we were the stupid ones for being milked so hard, but at least we've enjoyed the expansions.
There were 100k+ spectators in WCS. Although that's less than LoL, they are incomparable. SC2 has the HIGHEST viewership for ANY RTS at the moment.
/thread
I think you're being too optimistic for LotV. See Sigaty's comments below:
http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/05/31/starcraft-2-legacy-of-the-void-could-have-less-units-than-heart-of-the-swarm/
Admittedly his comments aren't binding, but I wouldnt hold my breath if I were you.
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