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On October 08 2013 23:28 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:18 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:00 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 22:54 Kheve wrote:http://baseportal.de/baseportal.pl?htx=/MyTube/sctv/News_F2&db=Com_1&cid=334&uid=&sid=183966388624253118011888430722a 2007 news article on the rise of OGN rivaling free korean national broadcasters. That was how big it was. Ppl who have never been in korea who have never seen cybercafes in every corner of the block with 100-400 pcs all filled with ppl playing sc from kids to officeworkers who jes got off work and now gonna fight ea other to release stress will never comprehend how big sc was. Until the day when your companies marketing dept ask you whether its better to sponsor a traditional tournament/team or a game title, you have not seen esports. Company starcraft tournaments were also the norm. It was madness. Phenomenon as some call it. Comparing any other scene to BW back then (other than wat lol/dota is and might be) is sheer nonsense. Does any other gamer command salaries of 30k USD a month other than in BW? I high doubt it. Jaedong at his peak was commanding 300k pa. Michael Jordan he is not, but hey neither is any other gamer but BW pros come closest. Ofc the good times are past. Theres no longer millions of viewers. Everyone changed to lol. Samsung just bought a LOL team. All money goes to lol and here we are explaining why sc2 was the most brilliant thing blizzard ever did for 'esports' like they ever cared about anything but how much money they can make from the players of their game. In korea, its how much player can make from the game (and not a single cent came from the developer). ![[image loading]](http://seoulspace.co.kr/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/2009-final.jpeg) ![[image loading]](http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2011/12/31/211530.jpg) This picture says it all .. lol/dota hasn't topped this yet .. this isn't about prize money, it's not even about the number of viewers .. it's about acceptance .. SC2 wasn't accepted .. it was forced .. This is at Haeundae right? Having been to Busan, I'm not sure how many of them were actual fans and how people here count fans in the first place. To answer a question that was posted above, I have absolutely no idea how many people during the hayday of BW in Korea were watching, however, having lived here for awhile and talking with a lot of people about BW/SC2, it was big, but I think people here are overestimating. First off, while BW was undoubtly popular (everyone knows what it is, and to an extent, some of the units/players), who are the fans? Are the fans people who play/watch regularly? The ones who turn it on once in awhile? The Super Bowl for example had 111 million people watch during the Pats/Giants game but no one is saying that there are 111 million football fans. The picture at Haeundae is incredibly awesome and I know lots of people here were moved by it, but at the same time, stuff like that happens at Haeundae all the time (events), and while no, there's not regularly that many people there watching, I can guarantee that not everyone there is a fan and people who are watching are just people who happen to be at the beach at night. Which is a stupid amount of people in Korea. Secondly, people here are arguing for the depth of BW vs SC2 and that BW is more deep and whatever. I doubt really that many people knew the tricks of BW compared to what people here think. Just like in every game, there are people who are super interested and know the tricks inside out, but there's just as many people who play the game just to play it without knowing the magic of the reaver. Things like JD's muta micro is impressive to see and hard to pull off, but JD did a similar muta micro earlier in the year in SC2 against infestors that was just as impressive to see. I don't see anyone talking about that. That's not even to say that SC2 is deeper or better than BW, but that people are putting such a large emphesis on why SC2 is a "worse" game than BW. It's not, it's absolutely different. There are a lot of things that SC2 can learn from BW that would make it better but it's not a bad game like everyone is claiming. Finally people who use the fact that BW is so popular in Korea, and that SC2 killed it off or whatever and use the amount of fans of BW vs SC2 as proof is fundamentally flawed. What other competition was there for BW? Sudden Attack? Crazy Arcade? Seriously, there was nothing. Even if SC2 was never released, or hell, if SC2 was BW v2, it wouldn't have beaten LoL. I don't think people understand how not popular 1v1 games are. EVERYONE at PC Bang's plays multiplayer, I have never seen anyone in the last 3-4 years even attempt to play a 1v1 BW/SC2 game. And frankly it's just sad to see people call LoL a no skill boring etc etc game cause it's absolutely dominating. It would have dominated BW no question. To have people make these comparisons like they were 1:1 is just maddening and it helps nothing. We get it, BW fans hate SC2 fans. They hope SC2 dies or changes to be like BW. They want their heroes like Bisu to come back. But this scene is changing and has been changing regardless of BW. Come to Korea and this fact is as clear as day. To me, It's not about wanting SC2 to become BW nor BW going to come back again. Most BW fans know that it won't happen anymore. We also know that it wasn't just SC2 that killed BW. Kpop killed MBC Game, for example The thing is, many SC2 fans thinks SC2 is going to become famous internationally like how BW was famous in Korea and BW fans know that will never happen.
That is close to impossible. LoL is looking more like BW spirit succesor. People are way more casual about it just as BW players in Korea.
SC2 is destined to be 2nd/3rd Esport, the Korea domination aspect and competitive foreground is giving very low chance.
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On October 08 2013 23:28 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:18 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:00 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 22:54 Kheve wrote:http://baseportal.de/baseportal.pl?htx=/MyTube/sctv/News_F2&db=Com_1&cid=334&uid=&sid=183966388624253118011888430722a 2007 news article on the rise of OGN rivaling free korean national broadcasters. That was how big it was. Ppl who have never been in korea who have never seen cybercafes in every corner of the block with 100-400 pcs all filled with ppl playing sc from kids to officeworkers who jes got off work and now gonna fight ea other to release stress will never comprehend how big sc was. Until the day when your companies marketing dept ask you whether its better to sponsor a traditional tournament/team or a game title, you have not seen esports. Company starcraft tournaments were also the norm. It was madness. Phenomenon as some call it. Comparing any other scene to BW back then (other than wat lol/dota is and might be) is sheer nonsense. Does any other gamer command salaries of 30k USD a month other than in BW? I high doubt it. Jaedong at his peak was commanding 300k pa. Michael Jordan he is not, but hey neither is any other gamer but BW pros come closest. Ofc the good times are past. Theres no longer millions of viewers. Everyone changed to lol. Samsung just bought a LOL team. All money goes to lol and here we are explaining why sc2 was the most brilliant thing blizzard ever did for 'esports' like they ever cared about anything but how much money they can make from the players of their game. In korea, its how much player can make from the game (and not a single cent came from the developer). This picture says it all .. lol/dota hasn't topped this yet .. this isn't about prize money, it's not even about the number of viewers .. it's about acceptance .. SC2 wasn't accepted .. it was forced .. This is at Haeundae right? Having been to Busan, I'm not sure how many of them were actual fans and how people here count fans in the first place. To answer a question that was posted above, I have absolutely no idea how many people during the hayday of BW in Korea were watching, however, having lived here for awhile and talking with a lot of people about BW/SC2, it was big, but I think people here are overestimating. First off, while BW was undoubtly popular (everyone knows what it is, and to an extent, some of the units/players), who are the fans? Are the fans people who play/watch regularly? The ones who turn it on once in awhile? The Super Bowl for example had 111 million people watch during the Pats/Giants game but no one is saying that there are 111 million football fans. The picture at Haeundae is incredibly awesome and I know lots of people here were moved by it, but at the same time, stuff like that happens at Haeundae all the time (events), and while no, there's not regularly that many people there watching, I can guarantee that not everyone there is a fan and people who are watching are just people who happen to be at the beach at night. Which is a stupid amount of people in Korea. Secondly, people here are arguing for the depth of BW vs SC2 and that BW is more deep and whatever. I doubt really that many people knew the tricks of BW compared to what people here think. Just like in every game, there are people who are super interested and know the tricks inside out, but there's just as many people who play the game just to play it without knowing the magic of the reaver. Things like JD's muta micro is impressive to see and hard to pull off, but JD did a similar muta micro earlier in the year in SC2 against infestors that was just as impressive to see. I don't see anyone talking about that. That's not even to say that SC2 is deeper or better than BW, but that people are putting such a large emphesis on why SC2 is a "worse" game than BW. It's not, it's absolutely different. There are a lot of things that SC2 can learn from BW that would make it better but it's not a bad game like everyone is claiming. Finally people who use the fact that BW is so popular in Korea, and that SC2 killed it off or whatever and use the amount of fans of BW vs SC2 as proof is fundamentally flawed. What other competition was there for BW? Sudden Attack? Crazy Arcade? Seriously, there was nothing. Even if SC2 was never released, or hell, if SC2 was BW v2, it wouldn't have beaten LoL. I don't think people understand how not popular 1v1 games are. EVERYONE at PC Bang's plays multiplayer, I have never seen anyone in the last 3-4 years even attempt to play a 1v1 BW/SC2 game. And frankly it's just sad to see people call LoL a no skill boring etc etc game cause it's absolutely dominating. It would have dominated BW no question. To have people make these comparisons like they were 1:1 is just maddening and it helps nothing. We get it, BW fans hate SC2 fans. They hope SC2 dies or changes to be like BW. They want their heroes like Bisu to come back. But this scene is changing and has been changing regardless of BW. Come to Korea and this fact is as clear as day. To me, It's not about wanting SC2 to become BW nor BW going to come back again. Most BW fans know that it won't happen anymore. We also know that it wasn't just SC2 that killed BW. Kpop killed MBC Game, for example The thing is, many SC2 fans thinks SC2 is going to become famous internationally like how BW was famous in Korea and BW fans know that will never happen.
Show me post of that? I havent readed anybody said that SC2 will have much teamhouses, full offline teamleagues and leagues.
Or what do you mean with "famous" exactly? Can you open up that little bit?
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On October 08 2013 23:28 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:18 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:00 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 22:54 Kheve wrote:http://baseportal.de/baseportal.pl?htx=/MyTube/sctv/News_F2&db=Com_1&cid=334&uid=&sid=183966388624253118011888430722a 2007 news article on the rise of OGN rivaling free korean national broadcasters. That was how big it was. Ppl who have never been in korea who have never seen cybercafes in every corner of the block with 100-400 pcs all filled with ppl playing sc from kids to officeworkers who jes got off work and now gonna fight ea other to release stress will never comprehend how big sc was. Until the day when your companies marketing dept ask you whether its better to sponsor a traditional tournament/team or a game title, you have not seen esports. Company starcraft tournaments were also the norm. It was madness. Phenomenon as some call it. Comparing any other scene to BW back then (other than wat lol/dota is and might be) is sheer nonsense. Does any other gamer command salaries of 30k USD a month other than in BW? I high doubt it. Jaedong at his peak was commanding 300k pa. Michael Jordan he is not, but hey neither is any other gamer but BW pros come closest. Ofc the good times are past. Theres no longer millions of viewers. Everyone changed to lol. Samsung just bought a LOL team. All money goes to lol and here we are explaining why sc2 was the most brilliant thing blizzard ever did for 'esports' like they ever cared about anything but how much money they can make from the players of their game. In korea, its how much player can make from the game (and not a single cent came from the developer). This picture says it all .. lol/dota hasn't topped this yet .. this isn't about prize money, it's not even about the number of viewers .. it's about acceptance .. SC2 wasn't accepted .. it was forced .. This is at Haeundae right? Having been to Busan, I'm not sure how many of them were actual fans and how people here count fans in the first place. To answer a question that was posted above, I have absolutely no idea how many people during the hayday of BW in Korea were watching, however, having lived here for awhile and talking with a lot of people about BW/SC2, it was big, but I think people here are overestimating. First off, while BW was undoubtly popular (everyone knows what it is, and to an extent, some of the units/players), who are the fans? Are the fans people who play/watch regularly? The ones who turn it on once in awhile? The Super Bowl for example had 111 million people watch during the Pats/Giants game but no one is saying that there are 111 million football fans. The picture at Haeundae is incredibly awesome and I know lots of people here were moved by it, but at the same time, stuff like that happens at Haeundae all the time (events), and while no, there's not regularly that many people there watching, I can guarantee that not everyone there is a fan and people who are watching are just people who happen to be at the beach at night. Which is a stupid amount of people in Korea. Secondly, people here are arguing for the depth of BW vs SC2 and that BW is more deep and whatever. I doubt really that many people knew the tricks of BW compared to what people here think. Just like in every game, there are people who are super interested and know the tricks inside out, but there's just as many people who play the game just to play it without knowing the magic of the reaver. Things like JD's muta micro is impressive to see and hard to pull off, but JD did a similar muta micro earlier in the year in SC2 against infestors that was just as impressive to see. I don't see anyone talking about that. That's not even to say that SC2 is deeper or better than BW, but that people are putting such a large emphesis on why SC2 is a "worse" game than BW. It's not, it's absolutely different. There are a lot of things that SC2 can learn from BW that would make it better but it's not a bad game like everyone is claiming. Finally people who use the fact that BW is so popular in Korea, and that SC2 killed it off or whatever and use the amount of fans of BW vs SC2 as proof is fundamentally flawed. What other competition was there for BW? Sudden Attack? Crazy Arcade? Seriously, there was nothing. Even if SC2 was never released, or hell, if SC2 was BW v2, it wouldn't have beaten LoL. I don't think people understand how not popular 1v1 games are. EVERYONE at PC Bang's plays multiplayer, I have never seen anyone in the last 3-4 years even attempt to play a 1v1 BW/SC2 game. And frankly it's just sad to see people call LoL a no skill boring etc etc game cause it's absolutely dominating. It would have dominated BW no question. To have people make these comparisons like they were 1:1 is just maddening and it helps nothing. We get it, BW fans hate SC2 fans. They hope SC2 dies or changes to be like BW. They want their heroes like Bisu to come back. But this scene is changing and has been changing regardless of BW. Come to Korea and this fact is as clear as day. To me, It's not about wanting SC2 to become BW nor BW going to come back again. Most BW fans know that it won't happen anymore. We also know that it wasn't just SC2 that killed BW. Kpop killed MBC Game, for example The thing is, many SC2 fans thinks SC2 is going to become famous internationally like how BW was famous in Korea and BW fans know that will never happen.
that's just ignorance and it's best to leave those people alone. I love both games for vastly different reasons.
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We understand MOBA have long overtaken RTS. That is evident even in BW days back in 5.84c dota when dota was as popular in SEA as BW was in korea. The point is, would BW with its history and existing infrastructure stand a better chance against MOBA? I would definitely say so.
Would a joint venture between Blizzard and Kespa right at the launch of SC2 stand a better chance than the 'HAHAHA SC2 gonna own and this time there is nothing Kespa can do legally unless they hack battlenet' revenge mentality of blizzard served SC2 as an esport better? I definitely think so. SC2 was made without a care for esport. Blizzard wanted to koreans to pay them profits for the 10 year+ real esport industry as if it were a game like wow where they make hundreds of millions a month from the player base. Blizzard was interested in SC2 as a 'game' that gives them players hard earned money.
Mark my words, one day when either lol/dota reach BW popularity and legitimacy (lol recognised by some US states and dota recognized by china or prefecture government i cant remember), the LAST thing valve or riot will ever do is introduce a sequel. One simply does not make tennis 2.0.
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On October 08 2013 23:33 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:28 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:18 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:00 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 22:54 Kheve wrote:http://baseportal.de/baseportal.pl?htx=/MyTube/sctv/News_F2&db=Com_1&cid=334&uid=&sid=183966388624253118011888430722a 2007 news article on the rise of OGN rivaling free korean national broadcasters. That was how big it was. Ppl who have never been in korea who have never seen cybercafes in every corner of the block with 100-400 pcs all filled with ppl playing sc from kids to officeworkers who jes got off work and now gonna fight ea other to release stress will never comprehend how big sc was. Until the day when your companies marketing dept ask you whether its better to sponsor a traditional tournament/team or a game title, you have not seen esports. Company starcraft tournaments were also the norm. It was madness. Phenomenon as some call it. Comparing any other scene to BW back then (other than wat lol/dota is and might be) is sheer nonsense. Does any other gamer command salaries of 30k USD a month other than in BW? I high doubt it. Jaedong at his peak was commanding 300k pa. Michael Jordan he is not, but hey neither is any other gamer but BW pros come closest. Ofc the good times are past. Theres no longer millions of viewers. Everyone changed to lol. Samsung just bought a LOL team. All money goes to lol and here we are explaining why sc2 was the most brilliant thing blizzard ever did for 'esports' like they ever cared about anything but how much money they can make from the players of their game. In korea, its how much player can make from the game (and not a single cent came from the developer). This picture says it all .. lol/dota hasn't topped this yet .. this isn't about prize money, it's not even about the number of viewers .. it's about acceptance .. SC2 wasn't accepted .. it was forced .. This is at Haeundae right? Having been to Busan, I'm not sure how many of them were actual fans and how people here count fans in the first place. To answer a question that was posted above, I have absolutely no idea how many people during the hayday of BW in Korea were watching, however, having lived here for awhile and talking with a lot of people about BW/SC2, it was big, but I think people here are overestimating. First off, while BW was undoubtly popular (everyone knows what it is, and to an extent, some of the units/players), who are the fans? Are the fans people who play/watch regularly? The ones who turn it on once in awhile? The Super Bowl for example had 111 million people watch during the Pats/Giants game but no one is saying that there are 111 million football fans. The picture at Haeundae is incredibly awesome and I know lots of people here were moved by it, but at the same time, stuff like that happens at Haeundae all the time (events), and while no, there's not regularly that many people there watching, I can guarantee that not everyone there is a fan and people who are watching are just people who happen to be at the beach at night. Which is a stupid amount of people in Korea. Secondly, people here are arguing for the depth of BW vs SC2 and that BW is more deep and whatever. I doubt really that many people knew the tricks of BW compared to what people here think. Just like in every game, there are people who are super interested and know the tricks inside out, but there's just as many people who play the game just to play it without knowing the magic of the reaver. Things like JD's muta micro is impressive to see and hard to pull off, but JD did a similar muta micro earlier in the year in SC2 against infestors that was just as impressive to see. I don't see anyone talking about that. That's not even to say that SC2 is deeper or better than BW, but that people are putting such a large emphesis on why SC2 is a "worse" game than BW. It's not, it's absolutely different. There are a lot of things that SC2 can learn from BW that would make it better but it's not a bad game like everyone is claiming. Finally people who use the fact that BW is so popular in Korea, and that SC2 killed it off or whatever and use the amount of fans of BW vs SC2 as proof is fundamentally flawed. What other competition was there for BW? Sudden Attack? Crazy Arcade? Seriously, there was nothing. Even if SC2 was never released, or hell, if SC2 was BW v2, it wouldn't have beaten LoL. I don't think people understand how not popular 1v1 games are. EVERYONE at PC Bang's plays multiplayer, I have never seen anyone in the last 3-4 years even attempt to play a 1v1 BW/SC2 game. And frankly it's just sad to see people call LoL a no skill boring etc etc game cause it's absolutely dominating. It would have dominated BW no question. To have people make these comparisons like they were 1:1 is just maddening and it helps nothing. We get it, BW fans hate SC2 fans. They hope SC2 dies or changes to be like BW. They want their heroes like Bisu to come back. But this scene is changing and has been changing regardless of BW. Come to Korea and this fact is as clear as day. To me, It's not about wanting SC2 to become BW nor BW going to come back again. Most BW fans know that it won't happen anymore. We also know that it wasn't just SC2 that killed BW. Kpop killed MBC Game, for example The thing is, many SC2 fans thinks SC2 is going to become famous internationally like how BW was famous in Korea and BW fans know that will never happen. Show me post of that? I havent readed anybody said that SC2 will have much teamhouses, full offline teamleagues and leagues. Or what do you mean with "famous" exactly? Can you open up that little bit?
Did you follow the Kespa vs Blizzard lawsuits? Blizzard themselves wants Kespa organizers to play SC2 instead of BW with their current teams.
What part of 'famous' do you not understand? Sure SC2 is famous but is it accepted?
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 08 2013 23:35 Kheve wrote:
We understand MOBA have long overtaken RTS. That is evident even in BW days back in 5.84c dota when dota was as popular in SEA as BW was in korea. The point is, would BW with its history and existing infrastructure stand a better chance against MOBA? I would definitely say so.
Would a joint venture between Blizzard and Kespa right at the launch of SC2 stand a better chance than the 'HAHAHA SC2 gonna own and this time there is nothing Kespa can do legally unless they hack battlenet' revenge mentality of blizzard served SC2 as an esport better? I definitely think so. SC2 was made without a care for esport. Blizzard wanted to koreans to pay them profits for the 10 year+ real esport industry as if it were a game like wow where they make hundreds of millions a month from the player base. Blizzard was interested in SC2 as a 'game' that gives them players hard earned money.
Mark my words, one day when either lol/dota reach BW popularity and legitimacy (lol recognised by some US states and dota recognized by china or prefecture government i cant remember), the LAST thing valve or riot will ever do is introduce a sequel. One simply does not make tennis 2.0.
You cannot make a sequel to MOBA game, it has no storyline :D. You can make a sequel for RTS, since it has one (in most cases). Next, i doubt that if LoL was as popular as it is now in Korea, but Riot got 0 won from that popularity, because you know, they somehow managed to crack it and give 0 fucks about buying anything in it, Riot would be fine with that. See, breaking the law has it's consequences.
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On October 08 2013 23:38 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:35 Kheve wrote:
We understand MOBA have long overtaken RTS. That is evident even in BW days back in 5.84c dota when dota was as popular in SEA as BW was in korea. The point is, would BW with its history and existing infrastructure stand a better chance against MOBA? I would definitely say so.
Would a joint venture between Blizzard and Kespa right at the launch of SC2 stand a better chance than the 'HAHAHA SC2 gonna own and this time there is nothing Kespa can do legally unless they hack battlenet' revenge mentality of blizzard served SC2 as an esport better? I definitely think so. SC2 was made without a care for esport. Blizzard wanted to koreans to pay them profits for the 10 year+ real esport industry as if it were a game like wow where they make hundreds of millions a month from the player base. Blizzard was interested in SC2 as a 'game' that gives them players hard earned money.
Mark my words, one day when either lol/dota reach BW popularity and legitimacy (lol recognised by some US states and dota recognized by china or prefecture government i cant remember), the LAST thing valve or riot will ever do is introduce a sequel. One simply does not make tennis 2.0. You cannot make a sequel to MOBA game :..
Dota 2?
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On October 08 2013 23:33 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:28 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:18 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:00 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 22:54 Kheve wrote:http://baseportal.de/baseportal.pl?htx=/MyTube/sctv/News_F2&db=Com_1&cid=334&uid=&sid=183966388624253118011888430722a 2007 news article on the rise of OGN rivaling free korean national broadcasters. That was how big it was. Ppl who have never been in korea who have never seen cybercafes in every corner of the block with 100-400 pcs all filled with ppl playing sc from kids to officeworkers who jes got off work and now gonna fight ea other to release stress will never comprehend how big sc was. Until the day when your companies marketing dept ask you whether its better to sponsor a traditional tournament/team or a game title, you have not seen esports. Company starcraft tournaments were also the norm. It was madness. Phenomenon as some call it. Comparing any other scene to BW back then (other than wat lol/dota is and might be) is sheer nonsense. Does any other gamer command salaries of 30k USD a month other than in BW? I high doubt it. Jaedong at his peak was commanding 300k pa. Michael Jordan he is not, but hey neither is any other gamer but BW pros come closest. Ofc the good times are past. Theres no longer millions of viewers. Everyone changed to lol. Samsung just bought a LOL team. All money goes to lol and here we are explaining why sc2 was the most brilliant thing blizzard ever did for 'esports' like they ever cared about anything but how much money they can make from the players of their game. In korea, its how much player can make from the game (and not a single cent came from the developer). This picture says it all .. lol/dota hasn't topped this yet .. this isn't about prize money, it's not even about the number of viewers .. it's about acceptance .. SC2 wasn't accepted .. it was forced .. This is at Haeundae right? Having been to Busan, I'm not sure how many of them were actual fans and how people here count fans in the first place. To answer a question that was posted above, I have absolutely no idea how many people during the hayday of BW in Korea were watching, however, having lived here for awhile and talking with a lot of people about BW/SC2, it was big, but I think people here are overestimating. First off, while BW was undoubtly popular (everyone knows what it is, and to an extent, some of the units/players), who are the fans? Are the fans people who play/watch regularly? The ones who turn it on once in awhile? The Super Bowl for example had 111 million people watch during the Pats/Giants game but no one is saying that there are 111 million football fans. The picture at Haeundae is incredibly awesome and I know lots of people here were moved by it, but at the same time, stuff like that happens at Haeundae all the time (events), and while no, there's not regularly that many people there watching, I can guarantee that not everyone there is a fan and people who are watching are just people who happen to be at the beach at night. Which is a stupid amount of people in Korea. Secondly, people here are arguing for the depth of BW vs SC2 and that BW is more deep and whatever. I doubt really that many people knew the tricks of BW compared to what people here think. Just like in every game, there are people who are super interested and know the tricks inside out, but there's just as many people who play the game just to play it without knowing the magic of the reaver. Things like JD's muta micro is impressive to see and hard to pull off, but JD did a similar muta micro earlier in the year in SC2 against infestors that was just as impressive to see. I don't see anyone talking about that. That's not even to say that SC2 is deeper or better than BW, but that people are putting such a large emphesis on why SC2 is a "worse" game than BW. It's not, it's absolutely different. There are a lot of things that SC2 can learn from BW that would make it better but it's not a bad game like everyone is claiming. Finally people who use the fact that BW is so popular in Korea, and that SC2 killed it off or whatever and use the amount of fans of BW vs SC2 as proof is fundamentally flawed. What other competition was there for BW? Sudden Attack? Crazy Arcade? Seriously, there was nothing. Even if SC2 was never released, or hell, if SC2 was BW v2, it wouldn't have beaten LoL. I don't think people understand how not popular 1v1 games are. EVERYONE at PC Bang's plays multiplayer, I have never seen anyone in the last 3-4 years even attempt to play a 1v1 BW/SC2 game. And frankly it's just sad to see people call LoL a no skill boring etc etc game cause it's absolutely dominating. It would have dominated BW no question. To have people make these comparisons like they were 1:1 is just maddening and it helps nothing. We get it, BW fans hate SC2 fans. They hope SC2 dies or changes to be like BW. They want their heroes like Bisu to come back. But this scene is changing and has been changing regardless of BW. Come to Korea and this fact is as clear as day. To me, It's not about wanting SC2 to become BW nor BW going to come back again. Most BW fans know that it won't happen anymore. We also know that it wasn't just SC2 that killed BW. Kpop killed MBC Game, for example The thing is, many SC2 fans thinks SC2 is going to become famous internationally like how BW was famous in Korea and BW fans know that will never happen. that's just ignorance and it's best to leave those people alone. I love both games for vastly different reasons.
I think you're a bit off. I for instance don't care if SC2's gonna be 10th esports or have no scene at all, and I'm definitely not pursuining it to become BW. I just want it to be a better game coz I like RTS, many people agree that SC2 is kinda boring and frustrating (even some pros like MC and Demuslim), I feel it myself too. I'd still play BW, but SC2 is better, since you can find people to play with and BW controls are too difficult for me. And whenever I bring up BW I just state some qualities which were good and should've been preserved in SC2. And you sir are exaggerating that shit and blowing up SC2 vs BW fan war, like we all hate SC2 and want it to die.
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Yes it's quite funny to see the mob mentality going on at snipealots stream when Bisu plays. Everyone in there is just bashing sc2 and saying how BW was/is the best game ever made, bla bla.
I think this personifies the low maturity level currently in the e-sports scene. How can you even begin to think a cognitively intense game such as SC2 or BW, where balance is based off 1v1s, can compete to a free game that promotes team play.
I'm not saying LoL isn't hard, or difficult, or whatever (Hell, I haven't played it once). All i'm saying is that SC2 is a niche game nowadays, with a lot of variables and extremely unforgiving. People need to learn to chill out and let the game run its course.
Just because everyone creates a thread or says SC2 is a ded game doesn't mean you have to think that way. Learn to think for yourselves muppets!
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On October 08 2013 23:35 Kheve wrote:
We understand MOBA have long overtaken RTS. That is evident even in BW days back in 5.84c dota when dota was as popular in SEA as BW was in korea. The point is, would BW with its history and existing infrastructure stand a better chance against MOBA? I would definitely say so.
Would a joint venture between Blizzard and Kespa right at the launch of SC2 stand a better chance than the 'HAHAHA SC2 gonna own and this time there is nothing Kespa can do legally unless they hack battlenet' revenge mentality of blizzard served SC2 as an esport better? I definitely think so. SC2 was made without a care for esport. Blizzard wanted to koreans to pay them profits for the 10 year+ real esport industry as if it were a game like wow where they make hundreds of millions a month from the player base. Blizzard was interested in SC2 as a 'game' that gives them players hard earned money.
Mark my words, one day when either lol/dota reach BW popularity and legitimacy (lol recognised by some US states and dota recognized by china or prefecture government i cant remember), the LAST thing valve or riot will ever do is introduce a sequel. One simply does not make tennis 2.0.
a better chance? of course it would. But that doesn't really mean much. LoL is absolutely destroying everything here. BW just came off of the worst scandal in it's history. The Korean economy is in absolute recession. Even without the threat of LoL, teams like STX and Woongjin would've collapsed. With hindsight being 20/20, Blizzard did a lot of stupid things wrong but you're not giving them enough credit for making a really damn good RTS game in the current day that has a decent viewership (aside from MOBAs) and is pretty damn balanced as well. Look at all the recent statistics, representation and win rates are around even and the only big issue has been that Protoss just doesn't win tournaments (which realistically, is it that different from BW?) Even things like player retention has done pretty well. Sure, the underdog takes more games off the Korean, and might win a series or two but how often are they really a threat to the better player? Maybe I'm looking at your argument wrong but all it seems like you're arguing is that BW would've handled the threat of LoL better, which in the end - doesn't really matter since LoL is just that popular now and KeSPA would've switched away, maybe 1-2 seasons later.
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On October 08 2013 23:30 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:18 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:00 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 22:54 Kheve wrote:http://baseportal.de/baseportal.pl?htx=/MyTube/sctv/News_F2&db=Com_1&cid=334&uid=&sid=183966388624253118011888430722a 2007 news article on the rise of OGN rivaling free korean national broadcasters. That was how big it was. Ppl who have never been in korea who have never seen cybercafes in every corner of the block with 100-400 pcs all filled with ppl playing sc from kids to officeworkers who jes got off work and now gonna fight ea other to release stress will never comprehend how big sc was. Until the day when your companies marketing dept ask you whether its better to sponsor a traditional tournament/team or a game title, you have not seen esports. Company starcraft tournaments were also the norm. It was madness. Phenomenon as some call it. Comparing any other scene to BW back then (other than wat lol/dota is and might be) is sheer nonsense. Does any other gamer command salaries of 30k USD a month other than in BW? I high doubt it. Jaedong at his peak was commanding 300k pa. Michael Jordan he is not, but hey neither is any other gamer but BW pros come closest. Ofc the good times are past. Theres no longer millions of viewers. Everyone changed to lol. Samsung just bought a LOL team. All money goes to lol and here we are explaining why sc2 was the most brilliant thing blizzard ever did for 'esports' like they ever cared about anything but how much money they can make from the players of their game. In korea, its how much player can make from the game (and not a single cent came from the developer). This picture says it all .. lol/dota hasn't topped this yet .. this isn't about prize money, it's not even about the number of viewers .. it's about acceptance .. SC2 wasn't accepted .. it was forced .. This is at Haeundae right? Having been to Busan, I'm not sure how many of them were actual fans and how people here count fans in the first place. To answer a question that was posted above, I have absolutely no idea how many people during the hayday of BW in Korea were watching, however, having lived here for awhile and talking with a lot of people about BW/SC2, it was big, but I think people here are overestimating. First off, while BW was undoubtly popular (everyone knows what it is, and to an extent, some of the units/players), who are the fans? Are the fans people who play/watch regularly? The ones who turn it on once in awhile? The Super Bowl for example had 111 million people watch during the Pats/Giants game but no one is saying that there are 111 million football fans. The picture at Haeundae is incredibly awesome and I know lots of people here were moved by it, but at the same time, stuff like that happens at Haeundae all the time (events), and while no, there's not regularly that many people there watching, I can guarantee that not everyone there is a fan and people who are watching are just people who happen to be at the beach at night. Which is a stupid amount of people in Korea. Secondly, people here are arguing for the depth of BW vs SC2 and that BW is more deep and whatever. I doubt really that many people knew the tricks of BW compared to what people here think. Just like in every game, there are people who are super interested and know the tricks inside out, but there's just as many people who play the game just to play it without knowing the magic of the reaver. Things like JD's muta micro is impressive to see and hard to pull off, but JD did a similar muta micro earlier in the year in SC2 against infestors that was just as impressive to see. I don't see anyone talking about that. That's not even to say that SC2 is deeper or better than BW, but that people are putting such a large emphesis on why SC2 is a "worse" game than BW. It's not, it's absolutely different. There are a lot of things that SC2 can learn from BW that would make it better but it's not a bad game like everyone is claiming.
Finally people who use the fact that BW is so popular in Korea, and that SC2 killed it off or whatever and use the amount of fans of BW vs SC2 as proof is fundamentally flawed. What other competition was there for BW? Sudden Attack? Crazy Arcade? Seriously, there was nothing. Even if SC2 was never released, or hell, if SC2 was BW v2, it wouldn't have beaten LoL. I don't think people understand how not popular 1v1 games are. EVERYONE at PC Bang's plays multiplayer, I have never seen anyone in the last 3-4 years even attempt to play a 1v1 BW/SC2 game. And frankly it's just sad to see people call LoL a no skill boring etc etc game cause it's absolutely dominating. It would have dominated BW no question. To have people make these comparisons like they were 1:1 is just maddening and it helps nothing. We get it, BW fans hate SC2 fans. They hope SC2 dies or changes to be like BW. They want their heroes like Bisu to come back. But this scene is changing and has been changing regardless of BW. Come to Korea and this fact is as clear as day. What a bunch of nonsense, no one wants SC2 to die.
@Chaggi: Best post in a while, specially the last paragraph.
@saddaromma : BW fans want to go back to the past when BW was the best RTS of the moment. Its the "nostalgia" that we all have for some old game that was magical for us in the past, call it BW, warcraft 2, FF7 or counter strike.
Sc2 its too precitable the 90% of the games, if you know the machup you can almost predict the BO for both players.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 08 2013 23:40 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:38 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:35 Kheve wrote:
We understand MOBA have long overtaken RTS. That is evident even in BW days back in 5.84c dota when dota was as popular in SEA as BW was in korea. The point is, would BW with its history and existing infrastructure stand a better chance against MOBA? I would definitely say so.
Would a joint venture between Blizzard and Kespa right at the launch of SC2 stand a better chance than the 'HAHAHA SC2 gonna own and this time there is nothing Kespa can do legally unless they hack battlenet' revenge mentality of blizzard served SC2 as an esport better? I definitely think so. SC2 was made without a care for esport. Blizzard wanted to koreans to pay them profits for the 10 year+ real esport industry as if it were a game like wow where they make hundreds of millions a month from the player base. Blizzard was interested in SC2 as a 'game' that gives them players hard earned money.
Mark my words, one day when either lol/dota reach BW popularity and legitimacy (lol recognised by some US states and dota recognized by china or prefecture government i cant remember), the LAST thing valve or riot will ever do is introduce a sequel. One simply does not make tennis 2.0. You cannot make a sequel to MOBA game :.. Dota 2?
Remake with better interface != sequel.
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On October 08 2013 23:40 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:33 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:28 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:18 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:00 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 22:54 Kheve wrote:http://baseportal.de/baseportal.pl?htx=/MyTube/sctv/News_F2&db=Com_1&cid=334&uid=&sid=183966388624253118011888430722a 2007 news article on the rise of OGN rivaling free korean national broadcasters. That was how big it was. Ppl who have never been in korea who have never seen cybercafes in every corner of the block with 100-400 pcs all filled with ppl playing sc from kids to officeworkers who jes got off work and now gonna fight ea other to release stress will never comprehend how big sc was. Until the day when your companies marketing dept ask you whether its better to sponsor a traditional tournament/team or a game title, you have not seen esports. Company starcraft tournaments were also the norm. It was madness. Phenomenon as some call it. Comparing any other scene to BW back then (other than wat lol/dota is and might be) is sheer nonsense. Does any other gamer command salaries of 30k USD a month other than in BW? I high doubt it. Jaedong at his peak was commanding 300k pa. Michael Jordan he is not, but hey neither is any other gamer but BW pros come closest. Ofc the good times are past. Theres no longer millions of viewers. Everyone changed to lol. Samsung just bought a LOL team. All money goes to lol and here we are explaining why sc2 was the most brilliant thing blizzard ever did for 'esports' like they ever cared about anything but how much money they can make from the players of their game. In korea, its how much player can make from the game (and not a single cent came from the developer). This picture says it all .. lol/dota hasn't topped this yet .. this isn't about prize money, it's not even about the number of viewers .. it's about acceptance .. SC2 wasn't accepted .. it was forced .. This is at Haeundae right? Having been to Busan, I'm not sure how many of them were actual fans and how people here count fans in the first place. To answer a question that was posted above, I have absolutely no idea how many people during the hayday of BW in Korea were watching, however, having lived here for awhile and talking with a lot of people about BW/SC2, it was big, but I think people here are overestimating. First off, while BW was undoubtly popular (everyone knows what it is, and to an extent, some of the units/players), who are the fans? Are the fans people who play/watch regularly? The ones who turn it on once in awhile? The Super Bowl for example had 111 million people watch during the Pats/Giants game but no one is saying that there are 111 million football fans. The picture at Haeundae is incredibly awesome and I know lots of people here were moved by it, but at the same time, stuff like that happens at Haeundae all the time (events), and while no, there's not regularly that many people there watching, I can guarantee that not everyone there is a fan and people who are watching are just people who happen to be at the beach at night. Which is a stupid amount of people in Korea. Secondly, people here are arguing for the depth of BW vs SC2 and that BW is more deep and whatever. I doubt really that many people knew the tricks of BW compared to what people here think. Just like in every game, there are people who are super interested and know the tricks inside out, but there's just as many people who play the game just to play it without knowing the magic of the reaver. Things like JD's muta micro is impressive to see and hard to pull off, but JD did a similar muta micro earlier in the year in SC2 against infestors that was just as impressive to see. I don't see anyone talking about that. That's not even to say that SC2 is deeper or better than BW, but that people are putting such a large emphesis on why SC2 is a "worse" game than BW. It's not, it's absolutely different. There are a lot of things that SC2 can learn from BW that would make it better but it's not a bad game like everyone is claiming. Finally people who use the fact that BW is so popular in Korea, and that SC2 killed it off or whatever and use the amount of fans of BW vs SC2 as proof is fundamentally flawed. What other competition was there for BW? Sudden Attack? Crazy Arcade? Seriously, there was nothing. Even if SC2 was never released, or hell, if SC2 was BW v2, it wouldn't have beaten LoL. I don't think people understand how not popular 1v1 games are. EVERYONE at PC Bang's plays multiplayer, I have never seen anyone in the last 3-4 years even attempt to play a 1v1 BW/SC2 game. And frankly it's just sad to see people call LoL a no skill boring etc etc game cause it's absolutely dominating. It would have dominated BW no question. To have people make these comparisons like they were 1:1 is just maddening and it helps nothing. We get it, BW fans hate SC2 fans. They hope SC2 dies or changes to be like BW. They want their heroes like Bisu to come back. But this scene is changing and has been changing regardless of BW. Come to Korea and this fact is as clear as day. To me, It's not about wanting SC2 to become BW nor BW going to come back again. Most BW fans know that it won't happen anymore. We also know that it wasn't just SC2 that killed BW. Kpop killed MBC Game, for example The thing is, many SC2 fans thinks SC2 is going to become famous internationally like how BW was famous in Korea and BW fans know that will never happen. that's just ignorance and it's best to leave those people alone. I love both games for vastly different reasons. I think you're a bit off. I for instance don't care if SC2's gonna be 10th esports or have no scene at all, and I'm definitely not pursuining it to become BW. I just want it to be a better game coz I like RTS, many people agree that SC2 is kinda boring and frustrating (even some pros like MC and Demuslim), I feel it myself too. I'd still play BW, but SC2 is better, since you can find people to play with and BW controls are too difficult for me. And whenever I bring up BW I just state some qualities which were good and should've been preserved in SC2. And you sir are exaggerating that shit and blowing up SC2 vs BW fan war, like we all hate SC2 and want it to die.
There's a good possibility I'm mixing up my arguments with another community that I post on frequently (which I cross-posted that long wall of txt on). All this negativity about SC2 is just really draining to see.
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On October 08 2013 23:44 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:40 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:38 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:35 Kheve wrote:
We understand MOBA have long overtaken RTS. That is evident even in BW days back in 5.84c dota when dota was as popular in SEA as BW was in korea. The point is, would BW with its history and existing infrastructure stand a better chance against MOBA? I would definitely say so.
Would a joint venture between Blizzard and Kespa right at the launch of SC2 stand a better chance than the 'HAHAHA SC2 gonna own and this time there is nothing Kespa can do legally unless they hack battlenet' revenge mentality of blizzard served SC2 as an esport better? I definitely think so. SC2 was made without a care for esport. Blizzard wanted to koreans to pay them profits for the 10 year+ real esport industry as if it were a game like wow where they make hundreds of millions a month from the player base. Blizzard was interested in SC2 as a 'game' that gives them players hard earned money.
Mark my words, one day when either lol/dota reach BW popularity and legitimacy (lol recognised by some US states and dota recognized by china or prefecture government i cant remember), the LAST thing valve or riot will ever do is introduce a sequel. One simply does not make tennis 2.0. You cannot make a sequel to MOBA game :.. Dota 2? Remake with better interface != sequel.
Dude, dota 2 players aren't playing for the story.
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On October 08 2013 23:43 drkcid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:30 saddaromma wrote:On October 08 2013 23:18 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:00 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 22:54 Kheve wrote:http://baseportal.de/baseportal.pl?htx=/MyTube/sctv/News_F2&db=Com_1&cid=334&uid=&sid=183966388624253118011888430722a 2007 news article on the rise of OGN rivaling free korean national broadcasters. That was how big it was. Ppl who have never been in korea who have never seen cybercafes in every corner of the block with 100-400 pcs all filled with ppl playing sc from kids to officeworkers who jes got off work and now gonna fight ea other to release stress will never comprehend how big sc was. Until the day when your companies marketing dept ask you whether its better to sponsor a traditional tournament/team or a game title, you have not seen esports. Company starcraft tournaments were also the norm. It was madness. Phenomenon as some call it. Comparing any other scene to BW back then (other than wat lol/dota is and might be) is sheer nonsense. Does any other gamer command salaries of 30k USD a month other than in BW? I high doubt it. Jaedong at his peak was commanding 300k pa. Michael Jordan he is not, but hey neither is any other gamer but BW pros come closest. Ofc the good times are past. Theres no longer millions of viewers. Everyone changed to lol. Samsung just bought a LOL team. All money goes to lol and here we are explaining why sc2 was the most brilliant thing blizzard ever did for 'esports' like they ever cared about anything but how much money they can make from the players of their game. In korea, its how much player can make from the game (and not a single cent came from the developer). This picture says it all .. lol/dota hasn't topped this yet .. this isn't about prize money, it's not even about the number of viewers .. it's about acceptance .. SC2 wasn't accepted .. it was forced .. This is at Haeundae right? Having been to Busan, I'm not sure how many of them were actual fans and how people here count fans in the first place. To answer a question that was posted above, I have absolutely no idea how many people during the hayday of BW in Korea were watching, however, having lived here for awhile and talking with a lot of people about BW/SC2, it was big, but I think people here are overestimating. First off, while BW was undoubtly popular (everyone knows what it is, and to an extent, some of the units/players), who are the fans? Are the fans people who play/watch regularly? The ones who turn it on once in awhile? The Super Bowl for example had 111 million people watch during the Pats/Giants game but no one is saying that there are 111 million football fans. The picture at Haeundae is incredibly awesome and I know lots of people here were moved by it, but at the same time, stuff like that happens at Haeundae all the time (events), and while no, there's not regularly that many people there watching, I can guarantee that not everyone there is a fan and people who are watching are just people who happen to be at the beach at night. Which is a stupid amount of people in Korea. Secondly, people here are arguing for the depth of BW vs SC2 and that BW is more deep and whatever. I doubt really that many people knew the tricks of BW compared to what people here think. Just like in every game, there are people who are super interested and know the tricks inside out, but there's just as many people who play the game just to play it without knowing the magic of the reaver. Things like JD's muta micro is impressive to see and hard to pull off, but JD did a similar muta micro earlier in the year in SC2 against infestors that was just as impressive to see. I don't see anyone talking about that. That's not even to say that SC2 is deeper or better than BW, but that people are putting such a large emphesis on why SC2 is a "worse" game than BW. It's not, it's absolutely different. There are a lot of things that SC2 can learn from BW that would make it better but it's not a bad game like everyone is claiming.
Finally people who use the fact that BW is so popular in Korea, and that SC2 killed it off or whatever and use the amount of fans of BW vs SC2 as proof is fundamentally flawed. What other competition was there for BW? Sudden Attack? Crazy Arcade? Seriously, there was nothing. Even if SC2 was never released, or hell, if SC2 was BW v2, it wouldn't have beaten LoL. I don't think people understand how not popular 1v1 games are. EVERYONE at PC Bang's plays multiplayer, I have never seen anyone in the last 3-4 years even attempt to play a 1v1 BW/SC2 game. And frankly it's just sad to see people call LoL a no skill boring etc etc game cause it's absolutely dominating. It would have dominated BW no question. To have people make these comparisons like they were 1:1 is just maddening and it helps nothing. We get it, BW fans hate SC2 fans. They hope SC2 dies or changes to be like BW. They want their heroes like Bisu to come back. But this scene is changing and has been changing regardless of BW. Come to Korea and this fact is as clear as day. What a bunch of nonsense, no one wants SC2 to die. @Chaggi: Best post in a while, specially the last paragraph. @saddaromma : BW fans want to go back to the past when BW was the best RTS of the moment. Its the "nostalgia" that we all have for some old game that was magical for us in the past, call it BW, warcraft 2, FF7 or counter strike. Sc2 its too precitable the 90% of the games, if you know the machup you can almost predict the BO for both players.
kinda this, my biggest wish is to have more diversity in the MU. I would love if bio and mech were equally viable in all my TvX MU's so I'm not forced to be so predictable. I feel like all the long games basically I have to play a certain style or else I'm giving myself some huge disadvantage, OR i'll have to all in.
that's why I'm so against the latest changes that are nerfing things like Widow Mines in favor of more "diversity" They should learn from BW and give us some overpowered shit so we can adapt them.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 08 2013 23:46 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:44 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:40 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:38 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:35 Kheve wrote:
We understand MOBA have long overtaken RTS. That is evident even in BW days back in 5.84c dota when dota was as popular in SEA as BW was in korea. The point is, would BW with its history and existing infrastructure stand a better chance against MOBA? I would definitely say so.
Would a joint venture between Blizzard and Kespa right at the launch of SC2 stand a better chance than the 'HAHAHA SC2 gonna own and this time there is nothing Kespa can do legally unless they hack battlenet' revenge mentality of blizzard served SC2 as an esport better? I definitely think so. SC2 was made without a care for esport. Blizzard wanted to koreans to pay them profits for the 10 year+ real esport industry as if it were a game like wow where they make hundreds of millions a month from the player base. Blizzard was interested in SC2 as a 'game' that gives them players hard earned money.
Mark my words, one day when either lol/dota reach BW popularity and legitimacy (lol recognised by some US states and dota recognized by china or prefecture government i cant remember), the LAST thing valve or riot will ever do is introduce a sequel. One simply does not make tennis 2.0. You cannot make a sequel to MOBA game :.. Dota 2? Remake with better interface != sequel. Dude, dota 2 players aren't playing for the story.
Right, 50+% are both playing and paying for the story in SC2's case however.
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On October 08 2013 23:47 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:46 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:44 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:40 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:38 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:35 Kheve wrote:
We understand MOBA have long overtaken RTS. That is evident even in BW days back in 5.84c dota when dota was as popular in SEA as BW was in korea. The point is, would BW with its history and existing infrastructure stand a better chance against MOBA? I would definitely say so.
Would a joint venture between Blizzard and Kespa right at the launch of SC2 stand a better chance than the 'HAHAHA SC2 gonna own and this time there is nothing Kespa can do legally unless they hack battlenet' revenge mentality of blizzard served SC2 as an esport better? I definitely think so. SC2 was made without a care for esport. Blizzard wanted to koreans to pay them profits for the 10 year+ real esport industry as if it were a game like wow where they make hundreds of millions a month from the player base. Blizzard was interested in SC2 as a 'game' that gives them players hard earned money.
Mark my words, one day when either lol/dota reach BW popularity and legitimacy (lol recognised by some US states and dota recognized by china or prefecture government i cant remember), the LAST thing valve or riot will ever do is introduce a sequel. One simply does not make tennis 2.0. You cannot make a sequel to MOBA game :.. Dota 2? Remake with better interface != sequel. Dude, dota 2 players aren't playing for the story. Right, 50+% are both playing and paying for the story in SC2's case however.
I feel so bad for those people who are playing for the story...
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On October 08 2013 23:44 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:40 saddaromma wrote:On October 08 2013 23:33 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:28 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:18 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:00 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 22:54 Kheve wrote:http://baseportal.de/baseportal.pl?htx=/MyTube/sctv/News_F2&db=Com_1&cid=334&uid=&sid=183966388624253118011888430722a 2007 news article on the rise of OGN rivaling free korean national broadcasters. That was how big it was. Ppl who have never been in korea who have never seen cybercafes in every corner of the block with 100-400 pcs all filled with ppl playing sc from kids to officeworkers who jes got off work and now gonna fight ea other to release stress will never comprehend how big sc was. Until the day when your companies marketing dept ask you whether its better to sponsor a traditional tournament/team or a game title, you have not seen esports. Company starcraft tournaments were also the norm. It was madness. Phenomenon as some call it. Comparing any other scene to BW back then (other than wat lol/dota is and might be) is sheer nonsense. Does any other gamer command salaries of 30k USD a month other than in BW? I high doubt it. Jaedong at his peak was commanding 300k pa. Michael Jordan he is not, but hey neither is any other gamer but BW pros come closest. Ofc the good times are past. Theres no longer millions of viewers. Everyone changed to lol. Samsung just bought a LOL team. All money goes to lol and here we are explaining why sc2 was the most brilliant thing blizzard ever did for 'esports' like they ever cared about anything but how much money they can make from the players of their game. In korea, its how much player can make from the game (and not a single cent came from the developer). This picture says it all .. lol/dota hasn't topped this yet .. this isn't about prize money, it's not even about the number of viewers .. it's about acceptance .. SC2 wasn't accepted .. it was forced .. This is at Haeundae right? Having been to Busan, I'm not sure how many of them were actual fans and how people here count fans in the first place. To answer a question that was posted above, I have absolutely no idea how many people during the hayday of BW in Korea were watching, however, having lived here for awhile and talking with a lot of people about BW/SC2, it was big, but I think people here are overestimating. First off, while BW was undoubtly popular (everyone knows what it is, and to an extent, some of the units/players), who are the fans? Are the fans people who play/watch regularly? The ones who turn it on once in awhile? The Super Bowl for example had 111 million people watch during the Pats/Giants game but no one is saying that there are 111 million football fans. The picture at Haeundae is incredibly awesome and I know lots of people here were moved by it, but at the same time, stuff like that happens at Haeundae all the time (events), and while no, there's not regularly that many people there watching, I can guarantee that not everyone there is a fan and people who are watching are just people who happen to be at the beach at night. Which is a stupid amount of people in Korea. Secondly, people here are arguing for the depth of BW vs SC2 and that BW is more deep and whatever. I doubt really that many people knew the tricks of BW compared to what people here think. Just like in every game, there are people who are super interested and know the tricks inside out, but there's just as many people who play the game just to play it without knowing the magic of the reaver. Things like JD's muta micro is impressive to see and hard to pull off, but JD did a similar muta micro earlier in the year in SC2 against infestors that was just as impressive to see. I don't see anyone talking about that. That's not even to say that SC2 is deeper or better than BW, but that people are putting such a large emphesis on why SC2 is a "worse" game than BW. It's not, it's absolutely different. There are a lot of things that SC2 can learn from BW that would make it better but it's not a bad game like everyone is claiming. Finally people who use the fact that BW is so popular in Korea, and that SC2 killed it off or whatever and use the amount of fans of BW vs SC2 as proof is fundamentally flawed. What other competition was there for BW? Sudden Attack? Crazy Arcade? Seriously, there was nothing. Even if SC2 was never released, or hell, if SC2 was BW v2, it wouldn't have beaten LoL. I don't think people understand how not popular 1v1 games are. EVERYONE at PC Bang's plays multiplayer, I have never seen anyone in the last 3-4 years even attempt to play a 1v1 BW/SC2 game. And frankly it's just sad to see people call LoL a no skill boring etc etc game cause it's absolutely dominating. It would have dominated BW no question. To have people make these comparisons like they were 1:1 is just maddening and it helps nothing. We get it, BW fans hate SC2 fans. They hope SC2 dies or changes to be like BW. They want their heroes like Bisu to come back. But this scene is changing and has been changing regardless of BW. Come to Korea and this fact is as clear as day. To me, It's not about wanting SC2 to become BW nor BW going to come back again. Most BW fans know that it won't happen anymore. We also know that it wasn't just SC2 that killed BW. Kpop killed MBC Game, for example The thing is, many SC2 fans thinks SC2 is going to become famous internationally like how BW was famous in Korea and BW fans know that will never happen. that's just ignorance and it's best to leave those people alone. I love both games for vastly different reasons. I think you're a bit off. I for instance don't care if SC2's gonna be 10th esports or have no scene at all, and I'm definitely not pursuining it to become BW. I just want it to be a better game coz I like RTS, many people agree that SC2 is kinda boring and frustrating (even some pros like MC and Demuslim), I feel it myself too. I'd still play BW, but SC2 is better, since you can find people to play with and BW controls are too difficult for me. And whenever I bring up BW I just state some qualities which were good and should've been preserved in SC2. And you sir are exaggerating that shit and blowing up SC2 vs BW fan war, like we all hate SC2 and want it to die. There's a good possibility I'm mixing up my arguments with another community that I post on frequently (which I cross-posted that long wall of txt on). All this negativity about SC2 is just really draining to see.
SC2 hate in Korea is well known and its coming since beta.
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On October 08 2013 23:47 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:46 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:44 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:40 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:38 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:35 Kheve wrote:
We understand MOBA have long overtaken RTS. That is evident even in BW days back in 5.84c dota when dota was as popular in SEA as BW was in korea. The point is, would BW with its history and existing infrastructure stand a better chance against MOBA? I would definitely say so.
Would a joint venture between Blizzard and Kespa right at the launch of SC2 stand a better chance than the 'HAHAHA SC2 gonna own and this time there is nothing Kespa can do legally unless they hack battlenet' revenge mentality of blizzard served SC2 as an esport better? I definitely think so. SC2 was made without a care for esport. Blizzard wanted to koreans to pay them profits for the 10 year+ real esport industry as if it were a game like wow where they make hundreds of millions a month from the player base. Blizzard was interested in SC2 as a 'game' that gives them players hard earned money.
Mark my words, one day when either lol/dota reach BW popularity and legitimacy (lol recognised by some US states and dota recognized by china or prefecture government i cant remember), the LAST thing valve or riot will ever do is introduce a sequel. One simply does not make tennis 2.0. You cannot make a sequel to MOBA game :.. Dota 2? Remake with better interface != sequel. Dude, dota 2 players aren't playing for the story. Right, 50+% are both playing and paying for the story in SC2's case however.
You're sticking to the 'story' issue when games like MOBA and other format can be marketable regardless of it having a story or not. Team Fortress/Counter Strike, Halo, Tekken for example. RTS won't be an exemption if time permits ..
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 08 2013 23:47 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:47 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:46 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:44 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:40 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:38 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:35 Kheve wrote:
We understand MOBA have long overtaken RTS. That is evident even in BW days back in 5.84c dota when dota was as popular in SEA as BW was in korea. The point is, would BW with its history and existing infrastructure stand a better chance against MOBA? I would definitely say so.
Would a joint venture between Blizzard and Kespa right at the launch of SC2 stand a better chance than the 'HAHAHA SC2 gonna own and this time there is nothing Kespa can do legally unless they hack battlenet' revenge mentality of blizzard served SC2 as an esport better? I definitely think so. SC2 was made without a care for esport. Blizzard wanted to koreans to pay them profits for the 10 year+ real esport industry as if it were a game like wow where they make hundreds of millions a month from the player base. Blizzard was interested in SC2 as a 'game' that gives them players hard earned money.
Mark my words, one day when either lol/dota reach BW popularity and legitimacy (lol recognised by some US states and dota recognized by china or prefecture government i cant remember), the LAST thing valve or riot will ever do is introduce a sequel. One simply does not make tennis 2.0. You cannot make a sequel to MOBA game :.. Dota 2? Remake with better interface != sequel. Dude, dota 2 players aren't playing for the story. Right, 50+% are both playing and paying for the story in SC2's case however. I feel so bad for those people who are playing for the story...
Yeah, i feel bad for them too. Thank god i am playing for the gameplay of campaign, it is like 100500 times more awesome than BW's campaign gameplay (story for BW is better in similar proportion however).
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