On October 08 2013 20:36 Nebuchad wrote: I wish this thread would just die.
I'm willing to accept that it started from a good intention, even though it isn't really the forum for it in the first place. But even then, there is nothing more to gain from it. Just look at Velr post, nothing personal it's just on top of the page. Litterally, it's a post devoid of all content. There is not a shred of discussion, it's not argumentative in the least, there is no new information, there is no solution. So many posts are like his.
I know it's cool to sit around in a circle and try to burn stuff. I just wish you would do it in a place where bystanders can't inhale the fumes.
I agree with this.
But I will pose the question of whether there's a problem with the game design or whether it's a skill problem. When people say guys like Flash and Jaedong learned to play BW perfectly, keep in mind that is ten years after the game came out. Right now people are complaining about these things about seven months after HotS came out. I think there's a nontrivial question of whether strategies will improve if we stretch this out to a timespan of years or if the game is designed with bright lines that make such innovations impossible.
On October 08 2013 20:36 Nebuchad wrote: I wish this thread would just die.
I'm willing to accept that it started from a good intention, even though it isn't really the forum for it in the first place. But even then, there is nothing more to gain from it. Just look at Velr post, nothing personal it's just on top of the page. Litterally, it's a post devoid of all content. There is not a shred of discussion, it's not argumentative in the least, there is no new information, there is no solution. So many posts are like his.
I know it's cool to sit around in a circle and try to burn stuff. I just wish you would do it in a place where bystanders can't inhale the fumes.
Complaining about complaining doesn't work either. You can't control crowd mind.
you're just cluttering and bringing the thread back to top.
Here it is: the graphical style of SC2 is fucking awful for spectators. ... honestly, I think this is one of the biggest ones.
No it isn't. When it's switched to proper red/green instead of unfortunate things like pink vs violet, it's a non-issue.
And that's why SC2 didn't retain viewers from Brood War
Outside of Korea, SC2 is orders of magnitude more popular as an esport than BW ever was. Retaining the few thousand die-hard BW fans who may find the game too busy is a non-issue.
And that's why SC2 didn't retain viewers from Brood War
Outside of Korea, SC2 is orders of magnitude more popular as an esport than BW ever was. Retaining the few thousand die-hard BW fans who may find the game too busy is a non-issue.
-_- viewership numbers of BW runs into millions in korea alone. Worldwide WCS numbers adding all 3 region up (assuming everyone only watch 1 region) is less than a quarter of a million. Oh well its blizzards money now. Lets see how long they can support sc2 like wc3 with their own money.
PS Hmmm im really enjoying this 'bash blizzard' aka 'wat is wrong with sc2'. Feels good to be mean AND right.
On October 08 2013 20:47 Sissors wrote: HotS is still very new (and SC2 too btw). I wouldn't call it good if now one person completely dominated it for a long time.
DeMuslim: I also believe allins should not be half as strong as they are now
I disagree there. I think all-ins should be twice as strong as they are now.
Okay a bit less. But one of my main problems with SC2 is the lack of actual strategy. But if one player goes for a fast expo, imo an all-in should be an autowin for the other player. You should be able to punish greed, and right now that is pretty much impossible. The main problem for me is then that there are some options for punishment, but the majority are blind-counters. And those I don't like. IMO in a strategy game if player A knows what B is doing, while B doesn't know what A is doing, it should pretty much be an autowin for player A. But that very obviously is not the case in SC2, as obvious from pro games where it takes 10 minutes before a player bothers to do some scouting of the opponent.
So while I don't like blind-counters being important, I also don't think all-ins should be nerfed so we have yet again an NR15-NR20 game where one battle decides all.
Related to one battle deciding all: That is something I also see much comments on. And I completely agree that is very bad. However you do need to watch out it isn't changed so one battle still decides it, but now instead of the game being over you first have a 10 minute long death animation.
I don't wanna be a dick or anything but what you're suggesting is every player gonna be one-basing since allins gonna kill you if you expand. And wtf with expanding = greed? What a nonsense. Even 3rd CC before barack is not a greed, its calculated cheese/risk.
Greed is when you have lots of money and you want more. Pls, keep that term out of here.
Of course it wouldn't be every player one-base all-inning. Because I want scouting to be more relevant. If I scout the enemy going one-base all-in I can defend against it. But I cannot take 3rd CC before rax and then go whining to the forums when I lose to an all-in.
And your last sentence exactly describes 3rd CC before rax.
Here it is: the graphical style of SC2 is fucking awful for spectators. ... honestly, I think this is one of the biggest ones.
No it isn't. When it's switched to proper red/green instead of unfortunate things like pink vs violet, it's a non-issue.
And that's why SC2 didn't retain viewers from Brood War
Outside of Korea, SC2 is orders of magnitude more popular as an esport than BW ever was. Retaining the few thousand die-hard BW fans who may find the game too busy is a non-issue.
-_- viewership numbers of BW runs into millions in korea alone. Worldwide WCS numbers adding all 3 region up (assuming everyone only watch 1 region) is less than a quarter of a million. Oh well its blizzards money now. Lets see how long they can support sc2 like wc3 with their own money.
PS Hmmm im really enjoying this 'bash blizzard' aka 'wat is wrong with sc2'. Feels good to be mean AND right.
On October 08 2013 20:36 Nebuchad wrote: I wish this thread would just die.
I'm willing to accept that it started from a good intention, even though it isn't really the forum for it in the first place. But even then, there is nothing more to gain from it. Just look at Velr post, nothing personal it's just on top of the page. Litterally, it's a post devoid of all content. There is not a shred of discussion, it's not argumentative in the least, there is no new information, there is no solution. So many posts are like his.
I know it's cool to sit around in a circle and try to burn stuff. I just wish you would do it in a place where bystanders can't inhale the fumes.
I agree with this.
But I will pose the question of whether there's a problem with the game design or whether it's a skill problem. When people say guys like Flash and Jaedong learned to play BW perfectly, keep in mind that is ten years after the game came out. Right now people are complaining about these things about seven months after HotS came out. I think there's a nontrivial question of whether strategies will improve if we stretch this out to a timespan of years or if the game is designed with bright lines that make such innovations impossible.
I actually agree that strategic development has an important role here. The game needs to be left alone for a while to see what players can do with it. That said, there are some fundamental issues that it seems players can't overcome. The most basic problem (and this has many factors contributing) is that games are usually won or lost based off decisions regarding build and composition rather than execution.
Compare zvt to any of the other matches. zvt has a couple pretty standard compositions and a handful of standard builds, and the average zvt game comes down to several engagements of expendable forces. Most engagements can be won or lost without crippling the player who loses, they are usually won or lost due to player ability (surrounds, kiting, sheer macro), and each engagement helps contribute to the overall game state. Most people enjoy this match up even if there may be some imbalance.
On the other hand, consider a different match up. I wont even specify a particular one. Small battles are rare. Big battles are usually decided by a handful of units despite involving near maxxed armies (some key tech unit that one of the players has or doesn't or a key spell hitting or missing). The winner of the big battle generally gains an insurmountable army advantage regardless of how their tech, upgrades, or economy compares to their opponents. This happens partly because the speed of a battle causes an engagement involving two even slightly unequal forces to result in an overwhelming victory for the slightly superior army.
The most obvious example of my point that I can think of is WOL pvz. Games would often come down to does the vortex hit or not. The imbalance of the matchup aside, this is just boring for the viewer to see again and again. It makes the entire rest of the game feel pointless.
I could go on for pages about why exactly this sort of issue is caused by game design, but others already have and I don't expect blizzard is planning on greatly changing the design ever. Hopefully they can help this by introducing some new units or abilities that encourage skirmishes and just letting the players figure ways to make it work.
And that's why SC2 didn't retain viewers from Brood War
Outside of Korea, SC2 is orders of magnitude more popular as an esport than BW ever was. Retaining the few thousand die-hard BW fans who may find the game too busy is a non-issue.
Actually, I do think that the color scheme especially when there is a zerg in the game (creep) is fucking awful. In a mirror matchup sometimes ZvZ I can only tell who is winning a fight because they're pushing forward. Really the colors should shine through quite a bit more on each unit.
Also I'm sure SC2 is more popular foreign, but which was more popular overall? I don't know, but I would assume BW then again I know nothing about Korea and how common it really was. In the end though we're also at a new age for foreigners and gaming and esports. Twitter, facebook, twitch, TL if all of these were as popular as they are now and everyone just got BW would the numbers be higher? In the end though that is irrelevant SC2 is doing just fine.
Here it is: the graphical style of SC2 is fucking awful for spectators. ... honestly, I think this is one of the biggest ones.
No it isn't. When it's switched to proper red/green instead of unfortunate things like pink vs violet, it's a non-issue.
And that's why SC2 didn't retain viewers from Brood War
Outside of Korea, SC2 is orders of magnitude more popular as an esport than BW ever was. Retaining the few thousand die-hard BW fans who may find the game too busy is a non-issue.
-_- viewership numbers of BW runs into millions in korea alone. Worldwide WCS numbers adding all 3 region up (assuming everyone only watch 1 region) is less than a quarter of a million. Oh well its blizzards money now. Lets see how long they can support sc2 like wc3 with their own money.
PS Hmmm im really enjoying this 'bash blizzard' aka 'wat is wrong with sc2'. Feels good to be mean AND right.
Source? Cause I don't believe.
I'm gonna take an educated guess and go with this being his source:
Here it is: the graphical style of SC2 is fucking awful for spectators. ... honestly, I think this is one of the biggest ones.
No it isn't. When it's switched to proper red/green instead of unfortunate things like pink vs violet, it's a non-issue.
And that's why SC2 didn't retain viewers from Brood War
Outside of Korea, SC2 is orders of magnitude more popular as an esport than BW ever was. Retaining the few thousand die-hard BW fans who may find the game too busy is a non-issue.
-_- viewership numbers of BW runs into millions in korea alone. Worldwide WCS numbers adding all 3 region up (assuming everyone only watch 1 region) is less than a quarter of a million. Oh well its blizzards money now. Lets see how long they can support sc2 like wc3 with their own money.
PS Hmmm im really enjoying this 'bash blizzard' aka 'wat is wrong with sc2'. Feels good to be mean AND right.
Source? Cause I don't believe.
I'm gonna take an educated guess and go with this being his source:
Here it is: the graphical style of SC2 is fucking awful for spectators. ... honestly, I think this is one of the biggest ones.
No it isn't. When it's switched to proper red/green instead of unfortunate things like pink vs violet, it's a non-issue.
And that's why SC2 didn't retain viewers from Brood War
Outside of Korea, SC2 is orders of magnitude more popular as an esport than BW ever was. Retaining the few thousand die-hard BW fans who may find the game too busy is a non-issue.
-_- viewership numbers of BW runs into millions in korea alone. Worldwide WCS numbers adding all 3 region up (assuming everyone only watch 1 region) is less than a quarter of a million. Oh well its blizzards money now. Lets see how long they can support sc2 like wc3 with their own money.
PS Hmmm im really enjoying this 'bash blizzard' aka 'wat is wrong with sc2'. Feels good to be mean AND right.
Source? Cause I don't believe.
I'm gonna take an educated guess and go with this being his source:
Which, by fanboy rules of argumentation, makes him totally correct.
Meanwhile over here in reality, you can't compare the hit count of GOMTV's international website to concurrent livestream viewers.
Well he said in Korea so I'm highly skeptical considering there's 50 million people here...
I mean, I don't think it's entirely out of the realm of possibility, because Brood War was a unique phenomenon in Korea, in that it became as popular as many traditional sports. But that hasn't been repeated with any other game since, and certainly doesn't apply anywhere else in the world.
SC2 is an esports success in the West, whereas Brood War wasn't. It's not up there with MOBAs, but that doesn't make it a failure. Fewer people watch the Stanley Cup than do the Super Bowl, but that doesn't make hockey a dead game.
I love how this thread derails into BW vs SC2 war, because SC2 happens to have SC2 in name. That's like saying SC1 (not BW) is the most balanced game ever made.
Here it is: the graphical style of SC2 is fucking awful for spectators. ... honestly, I think this is one of the biggest ones.
No it isn't. When it's switched to proper red/green instead of unfortunate things like pink vs violet, it's a non-issue.
And that's why SC2 didn't retain viewers from Brood War
Outside of Korea, SC2 is orders of magnitude more popular as an esport than BW ever was. Retaining the few thousand die-hard BW fans who may find the game too busy is a non-issue.
-_- viewership numbers of BW runs into millions in korea alone. Worldwide WCS numbers adding all 3 region up (assuming everyone only watch 1 region) is less than a quarter of a million. Oh well its blizzards money now. Lets see how long they can support sc2 like wc3 with their own money.
PS Hmmm im really enjoying this 'bash blizzard' aka 'wat is wrong with sc2'. Feels good to be mean AND right.
Source? Cause I don't believe.
I'm gonna take an educated guess and go with this being his source:
Which, by fanboy rules of argumentation, makes him totally correct.
Meanwhile over here in reality, you can't compare the hit count of GOMTV's international website to concurrent livestream viewers.
Well he said in Korea so I'm highly skeptical considering there's 50 million people here...
Just to put this out there. How many people do you think watched FvJD? How many people watched the most popular GSL final (whichever one it was). I honestly think that overall BW probably had more viewers, but we're more vocal because we speak English. Meanwhile if in BW we watched a final we could talk about it on TL or learn Korean. I again really don't know anything about Korea, but you don't think 3 million people watched a finals when that many showed up that the finals in the hanger?
On October 08 2013 21:51 lolfail9001 wrote: I love how this thread derails into BW vs SC2 war, because SC2 happens to have SC2 in name. That's like saying SC1 (not BW) is the most balanced game ever made.
You're right and even I'm guilty of it. The comparisons are crucial though if you really did want to improve many aspects of SC2. Then again Blizzard isn't going to read these posts even if some were valid, so why bother.
Here it is: the graphical style of SC2 is fucking awful for spectators. ... honestly, I think this is one of the biggest ones.
No it isn't. When it's switched to proper red/green instead of unfortunate things like pink vs violet, it's a non-issue.
And that's why SC2 didn't retain viewers from Brood War
Outside of Korea, SC2 is orders of magnitude more popular as an esport than BW ever was. Retaining the few thousand die-hard BW fans who may find the game too busy is a non-issue.
Actually, I do think that the color scheme especially when there is a zerg in the game (creep) is fucking awful. In a mirror matchup sometimes ZvZ I can only tell who is winning a fight because they're pushing forward. Really the colors should shine through quite a bit more on each unit.
Also I'm sure SC2 is more popular foreign, but which was more popular overall? I don't know, but I would assume BW then again I know nothing about Korea and how common it really was. In the end though we're also at a new age for foreigners and gaming and esports. Twitter, facebook, twitch, TL if all of these were as popular as they are now and everyone just got BW would the numbers be higher? In the end though that is irrelevant SC2 is doing just fine.
I agree with that. When units are on creep and when they are clumped up it’s not good for visual effect. And personally I think units are a bit too small.
[QUOTE]On October 08 2013 18:17 Kheve wrote: [QUOTE]On October 08 2013 18:05 MikeMM wrote: [QUOTE]On October 08 2013 17:43 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: [QUOTE]On October 08 2013 17:23 Parcelleus wrote: [/QUOTE] What do you think about BW then? Is it RTS or Action game?[/QUOTE]
BW is THE RTS game -_-. Remember total anihilation? command and conquer? WC2? Z? all these were slightly different cause RTS was still something very open then and every developer came out with their version. Then came SC BW. That heralded the end of the rts era as all rts is compared to sc and all failed spectacularly. Command and conquer managed to survive a lil longer but thats about it. Even blizzard was afraid of SC. Remember the first trailer of WC3? It was supposed to be a RPG game -_- coz blizzard didnt dare to touch rts for fear of failing like all the others after SC. Finally they took a middle route with rpg elements in a rts game. so that ppl cant compare with sc.
That is SC, THE RTS. SC was the end of all RTS and the beginning of esports. [/QUOTE] Im still thinking wtf you mean?
On October 08 2013 21:51 lolfail9001 wrote: I love how this thread derails into BW vs SC2 war, because SC2 happens to have SC2 in name. That's like saying SC1 (not BW) is the most balanced game ever made.
You're right and even I'm guilty of it. The comparisons are crucial though if you really did want to improve many aspects of SC2. Then again Blizzard isn't going to read these posts even if some were valid, so why bother.
Comparisons are pretty un-avoidable, unless Blizzard 1st: rewrites story completely, so there is no StarCraft in story. 2nd: removes any mention of StarCraft from name. And that is assuming they would do that before release.
The problem with SC2 is threads like these. SC2 is the best RTS ever made by a mile and pretty much singlehandedly made esports feasible outside of South Korea. No, it's not perfect, but its player retention is insane for an RTS. Most RTS barely have 3000 people playing two weeks after launch but SC2 has been going strong for well over three and a half years now.
That player retention is really impressive considering how difficult this game actually is. This isn't some casual-friendly MOBA, this is a hardcore game where a single mistake can cost you the game, even in bronze league. The target audience for this kind of games is small. Nevertheless, tournaments like Dreamhack still manage to get 100,000 viewers so I don't see why there is a "problem with SC2" outside of the overly gloomy mentality a lot of SC2 fans apparently struggle with.
EPT
