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StarCraft 2: What's The Problem - Page 57

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10692 Posts
October 08 2013 09:41 GMT
#1121
On October 08 2013 18:18 flashimba wrote:
Wow, this thread devolved quickly. Must every post mention BW?

BW fans, get it through your head. We don't want SC2 to be BW, it's a different game and we like it how it is.

I'm glad we have Rampancy as the voice of logic and reason here.

We can discuss how to make SC2 better but WITHOUT mentioning BW, mkay?



Ok, in case you didn't notice it:

Micro/direct control of your units should be more important than it is now but not to the level of WC3. Right now the setup before an actual fight is just way too important compared to controlling your units during a fight.
The Economy should not be as streamlined and, well, boring as it is now.
200/200 should not be reached in ~15 minutes, not if the game is not 100% passive and 200/200 armies should actually be scary big... Not, oh well, i just remax this in 2-3 minutes...
Games shouldn't end immediatly because of one "bad" engagement.
A few strong units in a defensive position should be hard to overcome even by a superiour force.

I would summarise this with the words of: Make it more like BW.

SC2 fans, get it thru your head, most of the stuff many people want for SC2 actually was in some form in BW. That does not mean that SC2 should become BW with improved graphics and UI (well, not for everyone, i wouldn't mind that personally ). It means that many general characteristics BW had would make SC2 a better game.
wishr
Profile Joined February 2012
Russian Federation262 Posts
October 08 2013 09:44 GMT
#1122
On October 08 2013 18:18 flashimba wrote:
Wow, this thread devolved quickly. Must every post mention BW?

BW fans, get it through your head. We don't want SC2 to be BW, it's a different game and we like it how it is.

I'm glad we have Rampancy as the voice of logic and reason here.

We can discuss how to make SC2 better but WITHOUT mentioning BW, mkay?

Man, i love you!
Guys, please, just listen to him!
* Only girls complain about balance! *
MikeMM
Profile Joined November 2012
Russian Federation221 Posts
October 08 2013 09:45 GMT
#1123
On October 08 2013 18:18 flashimba wrote:
Wow, this thread devolved quickly. Must every post mention BW?

BW fans, get it through your head. We don't want SC2 to be BW, it's a different game and we like it how it is.

I'm glad we have Rampancy as the voice of logic and reason here.

We can discuss how to make SC2 better but WITHOUT mentioning BW, mkay?

SC2 is sequel to SC1, SC2 has many units from BW. It’s just not possible not to mention BW.
Arco
Profile Joined September 2009
United States2090 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-08 09:49:12
October 08 2013 09:47 GMT
#1124
On October 08 2013 18:41 Velr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2013 18:18 flashimba wrote:
Wow, this thread devolved quickly. Must every post mention BW?

BW fans, get it through your head. We don't want SC2 to be BW, it's a different game and we like it how it is.

I'm glad we have Rampancy as the voice of logic and reason here.

We can discuss how to make SC2 better but WITHOUT mentioning BW, mkay?



Ok, in case you didn't notice it:

Micro/direct control of your units should be more important than it is now but not to the level of WC3. Right now the setup before an actual fight is just way too important compared to controlling your units during a fight.
The Economy should not be as streamlined and, well, boring as it is now.
200/200 should not be reached in ~15 minutes, not if the game is not 100% passive and 200/200 armies should actually be scary big... Not, oh well, i just remax this in 2-3 minutes...
Games shouldn't end immediatly because of one "bad" engagement.
A few strong units in a defensive position should be hard to overcome even by a superiour force.

I would summarise this with the words of: Make it more like BW.

SC2 fans, get it thru your head, most of the stuff many people want for SC2 actually was in some form in BW. That does not mean that SC2 should become BW with improved graphics and UI (well, not for everyone, i wouldn't mind that personally ). It means that many general characteristics BW had would make SC2 a better game.

This, this, and this.

Many of the design flaws in StarCraft 2 are because of changes in mechanics or even the changes in carry over units from StarCraft 1 to StarCraft 2. Had many of these changes not happened, StarCraft 2 would be in a MUCH better place than it is right now. However, the StarCraft 2 design team has constantly said "StarCraft 2 is a different game." It certainly is - a much worse one.

Be that as it may, it's still a StarCraft game. You shouldn't have to re-invent the wheel to make your game unique. There's plenty of unique things in StarCraft 2 that make it much different than StarCraft 1. Unfortunately, some of these things shouldn't have been changed, and StarCraft 2 has suffered dearly because of it.
kasumimi
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Greece460 Posts
October 08 2013 09:55 GMT
#1125
On October 08 2013 18:44 wishr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2013 18:18 flashimba wrote:
Wow, this thread devolved quickly. Must every post mention BW?

BW fans, get it through your head. We don't want SC2 to be BW, it's a different game and we like it how it is.

I'm glad we have Rampancy as the voice of logic and reason here.

We can discuss how to make SC2 better but WITHOUT mentioning BW, mkay?

Man, i love you!
Guys, please, just listen to him!


I bet you guys really enjoyed the depth and thrill delivered by WCS finals
Some of us didn't, because it's really good example of what's wrong with the game.
Micro_Jackson
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany2002 Posts
October 08 2013 10:01 GMT
#1126
On October 08 2013 18:18 flashimba wrote:
Wow, this thread devolved quickly. Must every post mention BW?

BW fans, get it through your head. We don't want SC2 to be BW, it's a different game and we like it how it is.

I'm glad we have Rampancy as the voice of logic and reason here.

We can discuss how to make SC2 better but WITHOUT mentioning BW, mkay?



"We" and "most of the people" are bad arguments in discussions. Threads like this are usually populated by the "loud minority" which makes them pretty useless for developers like Blizzard because they represent a very, very small sample size. I am not saying that Blizzard should ignore everything that is mentioned here but the game isnt bad just because of 60 pages with negative opinions.
And with the BW arguments you have to keep in mind that TL.net is heavily populated by BW fans and people in general "like what they know".

Also i think a factor that i would call the "Kobe vs. Jordan or Messi vs. Pele comparison". In sports there are always these comparisons between the "new" stars and the "old" Legends. These are stupid most of the time because they make the mistake of taking an average game of the new guy and compare it to the memory which were most likely the best games because you remember the great and forget the average.
If you turn this around and watch a "bad" or "average" BW game and compare it to "the very best" SC2 games you could have a totally different opinion on the game.

I personally think Blizzard made SC2 too much like BW. Not in terms of game design or balance more in terms of style or graphics design. Its a bit caught between "is kinda like BW but kinda bad at being a BW HD" and "its too much like SC1 to look at it as an entire different game".
wishr
Profile Joined February 2012
Russian Federation262 Posts
October 08 2013 10:01 GMT
#1127
On October 08 2013 18:55 kasumimi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2013 18:44 wishr wrote:
On October 08 2013 18:18 flashimba wrote:
Wow, this thread devolved quickly. Must every post mention BW?

BW fans, get it through your head. We don't want SC2 to be BW, it's a different game and we like it how it is.

I'm glad we have Rampancy as the voice of logic and reason here.

We can discuss how to make SC2 better but WITHOUT mentioning BW, mkay?

Man, i love you!
Guys, please, just listen to him!


I bet you guys really enjoyed the depth and thrill delivered by WCS finals
Some of us didn't, because it's really good example of what's wrong with the game.

Ye, i didnt watch finals, but i enjoyed ro4 pretty much.
Anyway, i liked BW adn original, and i think that something is wrong in current sc2 state, but i cant say what, just no idea.
* Only girls complain about balance! *
Kheve
Profile Joined May 2013
323 Posts
October 08 2013 10:05 GMT
#1128
[QUOTE]On October 08 2013 18:47 Arco wrote:
[QUOTE]On October 08 2013 18:41 Velr wrote:
[QUOTE]On October 08 2013 18:18 flashimba wrote:
Wow, this thread devolved quickly. Must every post mention BW?

Be that as it may, it's still a StarCraft game. You shouldn't have to re-invent the wheel to make your game unique. There's plenty of unique things in StarCraft 2 that make it much different than StarCraft 1. Unfortunately, some of these things shouldn't have been changed, and StarCraft 2 has suffered dearly because of it. [/QUOTE]

+1. Look a valves approach. Dota2 is an exact transplant of dota1. Well 99.9% anyway. In 2009 BW was still going strong. If only valve first made sc2 with all the same units of sc1 and THEN slowly phase out goons for stalkers/immortals and reavers for collosuss. It might have been WAY better. Instead Blizzard wanted to show they can own kespa. Which they did but they did not capture BW from kespa. They jes have another run of the mill game that will only survive on their own money for another few more years b4 calling it quits like WC3.

In spite of all the money blizz threw into WC3, and zero funding for BW, BW outlasted WC3 for so many years and hell was way bigger than WC3 worldwide combined. One of the grapevine all these years was that blizzard blame BW pro scene for the failure of WC3. When sc2 came out, they tried everything to stop BW from being played. Luckily BW is an esport in korea and has legal protection against Blizzard. BW died due to its popularity dropping, but hell blizzard certainly tried to criminalized playing BW in 2010. An excerpt of the negotiations between blizz and kespa I remember showed how blizzard is asking for compensation for playing BW as it will affect SC2.

Ah well, if only they all worked together sc2 coulda been way bigger success than dota2 is. Instead we have now wc3 in space (old joke when sc came out duran would say 'this is starcraft not warcraft in space')
BurningRanger
Profile Joined January 2012
Germany303 Posts
October 08 2013 10:07 GMT
#1129
Demuslim recently posted on his blog what he thinks about the current state of SC2 and I think it fits into this thread quite well, so I'll copy it over. (I hope this is allowed. If not, please delete.)
+ Show Spoiler +
I guess I blog pretty often, but needless to say, when something you care about is lost, it's always hurtful.

I just lost my WCS qualifier match vs Alicia 2-1. He's a great player, has done very well for any team he has been in, and I have only respect to show for him.
So with that out the way, I'd actually like to talk about Starcraft 2.

I actually love Starcraft 2, and have done ever so much since its release, my love and passion for gaming in general is so strong, that I chose this as my profession, so before any hate is thrown my way, I dedicate my life to this, but I also sacrifice it.
Starcraft 2 Began a while ago, epic matches - epic strategies, it was just epic. Screaming fans at events, Characters you can only love to follow leading the scene, and hey, without all that - I just loved playing it. But... There's always a but...

Starcraft has been described by many, Great, bad, exciting, boring you name it. But recently - and this has not been a spike of the moment thought process for me, it is starting to get to me.
I spent months streaming practically 8 hours a day to hopefully many of you, while I hope I helped teach you guys things/pass the time better for you guys or even just was a friendly face to make you feel less lonely - this at least professionally backfires immensely. There was so much information on my game throughout the web that people could get and learn my game and counter me. It's happened countless times, and people tend to wonder why I do so poorly on special occasions. Well - when you literally have 100's of hours of documented footage on yourself, for not only your fans, but your opposition to study, as much as I love the idea of sharing starcraft, and the secrets behind it - it has severely hindered my tournament results, especially those on LAN when my opposition know I'm attending.
That is one of the reasons I've been streaming less recently - starcraft is a very, very unforgiving game, which is why I love it, but the absolute one thing I hate, is that it's often unforgiving through no fault of my own.

To talk a little about what I mean - Vs Apoc in the WCS, our 3rd game in a 1-1 series - He went for a reaper build, in which he lost a reaper and killed a marine, and went back home. Starcraft is often a book in which you try to read while filling in the blanks. I filled in the blanks with what I deemed most logical - (That he didn't go 2 rax reaper and hide them randomly on the map) but he did, and I paid the price. Was this necessarily being outplayed? I guess In some regards, the other way to look at it is a little bit of a fluke.
My bo3 vs suppy which lasted an astonishing 7 minutes in total I think was very much so the result that I streamed, had a lot of info on me playing the way I did, and he has subsequently told me he did study me, and blind countered me.
Vs Alicia just recently, I lost to a blink stalker 1 base build which I knew was coming. It's all pretty heart wrenching thinking about these moments, why they happened and how I know I could have stopped them.

Starcraft has been the game, in which the skillful, the hardworking, the deserving were triumphant. I don't think starcraft is dying, nor do I think it will for a while, that being said though - Starcraft II right now, is not an enjoyable game for me to play.
Given my rather morbid talk about my WCS matches, I guess it would only make sense that the game hasn't been to kind to me recently within regards to WCS. But I want to delve into things a little further.

If you consider playing 30 games a day, in which you're supposed to go 50:50 on average if you pick your training partners right, that's a lot of losing to be done. It's something everybody who wants to succeed must manage, and manage you have to.
I used to practice, heading into late game scenarios, the whole game being one of those scenarios in which nobody knows who is gonna win, until some pivotal moves are made, and you breathe a huge sigh of relief that you pulled it out the bag, and then onto the next practice game.

Recently - from what I've watched and experienced, the outcome of the game is often decided, purely because of which coin people decided to flip. And people - if you don't know what I mean, I mean the 15 hatch vs the 10 pool, I mean the roach bane all in vs the 3 cc, I mean the 10 pool bane all in vs cc first - Is this what starcraft has turned into? This is not something I find fun, nor is it something I should find fun. I loved watching MMA at MLG come out with new builds, that would dictate if everything went as planned, and his opponent reacted as perfectly as he could - the game would still be 50:50 - I don't like freewins, nor do I like freelosses.
When you see a player win with some sort of allin, do you believe he deserved the game? Did he work harder than his opponent for that win? Did he study more? - More often than not when I'm performing an all in, I don't feel satisfied with the win, nor do I feel I deserved it. On the other side of the coin when I lose to something outrightly, purely because of a decision I made 2 minutes prior - I think that is fundamentally, a terrible terrible thing for starcraft 2 to have as part of it. Maybe it's just me, When I watched MMA vs MC - I felt nostalgic, the games were pretty good, But when I see games being dictated minutes before any of them knowing what on earth is happening (such as akilon waste and MMA's 2 rax) - It is this part of this game that I don't enjoy.

TvT was the matchup of position, it was great - it's now known among the professionals as literally picking 1 of the possible 5 bo's to do - and then playing either equally, ahead or simply behind.

This rant obviously came out of a rather defeated fellow - but still I think my worries and dislikes hold true. I want a game where I see perfection work, I want a game where the outcome isn't decided before even the victor knows he's going to win - I think starcraft Needs serious work, I'm willing to put it in, but it's going to be hard.

This could be perceived as a whine blog, and you're probably right - I may read over this in an hours time and feel why less strongly about what I feel about now.

Without picking on Starcraft too much, I've also played a bit of dota and league to the point where I pretty much know how they work, and the same problem exists in those games too, be it with lineups or what ever - at least they have things in place to help prevent it, such as bans, picks all that jazz - pretty drawn out processes, but they do the job to some extent - though outdrafting still happens.
The thing is, I don't care 10% as much about those games as I do Starcraft. And while this won't be a Naniwa Blog where I say a few outlandish things - I will say that Starcraft 2, and the amount of skill it requires should never have as much room for the silly amount of losses that happen in this game. - How could you stop them from happening? Honestly I'm not a game balancer, nor do I think I could be given my level of commitment to the game, but I do believe this aspect of starcraft is what affects the game more than anything. Excitement, joy - all of these things should peak upon watching a games highlights - be that a sick drop, flank or some uber fungal that hit 10+ mutas, instead I find myself staying up to watch innovation vs some zerg, only to see he lost the game 5 minutes before he knew he lost it, and for the games to leave me tutting and being anything but enthusiastic, I'd actually describe what I feel when I watch most games of starcraft as disappointed.

I don't know what happened exactly, and I know this kinda play has been around since the start, but it seems so much more exaggerated now than ever. I can only assume and use what I know now to try and figure it out, and the only thing that really makes sense is the fact that most new features in HOTS rely on dealing damage faster than everything in WoL.
Every new feature that is used in HoTS, well everything I can think of right now just deals more damage and faster than what it's predecessor did, or just more easily.
Oracles for protoss - you now can whip in a mineral line, kill 6 scvs and live to tell the tale before a terran is able to have anything there to stop it. That is not fucking starcraft. (They also want to buff the oracle, because it's apparently too slow.)
I can run randomly on creep, plant down 6 widow mines randomly and win an engagement despite totally not deserving to thanks to 6 huge detonations, neither is that. (widow mines are actually getting nerfed, which is cool - but I don't really think many people in the pro scene are whining about those too much currently.)
Hellbats - well luckily their reign is over, though I have a feeling they'll be rearing their ugly heads sooner than we think again, since a healthy 30 damage shot or what ever it is, aoe with blue flame upgrade alone for 100 minerals is too good to not use frankly.
Baneling busts of any varying degree consist of running suicidal units at a wall, and an army, and everything behind it. (If you're wondering why this became so much more prominent in HoTS than WOL, which I've heard a lot of people in my stream chat talk about when I lose to this strategy, then remember the fact that mutas were slower, didn't regen health like they do now and just weren't used 1/10 as much as they are now, I've had games where I go pure bio and hellbat, and actually ended up losing vs the sheer amount of mutas without having widow mines.)
A huge rant this turned out to be, and I guess if you want the TL:DR it would go something like this:
I think units deal way too much damage in Starcraft, I also believe allins should not be half as strong as they are now. I want the game to be filled with good moves, on the fly decision making and well thought out strategies, I don't want cheap wins in which neither the doer or the receiver knew was happening.|

I'm going to continue playing starcraft, and I will continue streaming - I've taken down the VoDs for now, as I really want to do well in tournaments. I still enjoy starcraft far more than any other game - and with that stated, I have no fear, and I don't want you to have either. But these are problems that do hinder the game, and do hinder peoples joy of the game that need to be considered.

Thanks for the read, may give a more thought out blog as to what I think would really help the current situation, rather than pointing out the problems.

Also - WCS really shouldn't be region locked as it is now. Having WCS KOREA - then WCS Europe (finalists Korean) and WCS NA being a miniature version of WCS KOREA is really, really boring - if it was residential it would be so much better.
When I know I went through the whole visa process to get to where I am now, I feel I was totally kicked in the face with this new layout by Blizzard, but I also feel this affected things way more negatively than any tournament overlap has ever done.

Original Link (on Facebook)

I think he's right about the game being decided too much on allins, cheeses and coinflipps.
My Livestream: http://www.twitch.tv/burningranger | My youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/BurningR4nger
Naphal
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany2099 Posts
October 08 2013 10:07 GMT
#1130
as a viewer and terranplayer: the problem is stale gameplay with WoW like flavor of the season balancing.
they need to create more diversity and stop destroying it.
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12385 Posts
October 08 2013 10:10 GMT
#1131
On October 08 2013 19:07 BurningRanger wrote:
Demuslim recently posted on his blog what he thinks about the current state of SC2 and I think it fits into this thread quite well, so I'll copy it over. (I hope this is allowed. If not, please delete.)
+ Show Spoiler +
I guess I blog pretty often, but needless to say, when something you care about is lost, it's always hurtful.

I just lost my WCS qualifier match vs Alicia 2-1. He's a great player, has done very well for any team he has been in, and I have only respect to show for him.
So with that out the way, I'd actually like to talk about Starcraft 2.

I actually love Starcraft 2, and have done ever so much since its release, my love and passion for gaming in general is so strong, that I chose this as my profession, so before any hate is thrown my way, I dedicate my life to this, but I also sacrifice it.
Starcraft 2 Began a while ago, epic matches - epic strategies, it was just epic. Screaming fans at events, Characters you can only love to follow leading the scene, and hey, without all that - I just loved playing it. But... There's always a but...

Starcraft has been described by many, Great, bad, exciting, boring you name it. But recently - and this has not been a spike of the moment thought process for me, it is starting to get to me.
I spent months streaming practically 8 hours a day to hopefully many of you, while I hope I helped teach you guys things/pass the time better for you guys or even just was a friendly face to make you feel less lonely - this at least professionally backfires immensely. There was so much information on my game throughout the web that people could get and learn my game and counter me. It's happened countless times, and people tend to wonder why I do so poorly on special occasions. Well - when you literally have 100's of hours of documented footage on yourself, for not only your fans, but your opposition to study, as much as I love the idea of sharing starcraft, and the secrets behind it - it has severely hindered my tournament results, especially those on LAN when my opposition know I'm attending.
That is one of the reasons I've been streaming less recently - starcraft is a very, very unforgiving game, which is why I love it, but the absolute one thing I hate, is that it's often unforgiving through no fault of my own.

To talk a little about what I mean - Vs Apoc in the WCS, our 3rd game in a 1-1 series - He went for a reaper build, in which he lost a reaper and killed a marine, and went back home. Starcraft is often a book in which you try to read while filling in the blanks. I filled in the blanks with what I deemed most logical - (That he didn't go 2 rax reaper and hide them randomly on the map) but he did, and I paid the price. Was this necessarily being outplayed? I guess In some regards, the other way to look at it is a little bit of a fluke.
My bo3 vs suppy which lasted an astonishing 7 minutes in total I think was very much so the result that I streamed, had a lot of info on me playing the way I did, and he has subsequently told me he did study me, and blind countered me.
Vs Alicia just recently, I lost to a blink stalker 1 base build which I knew was coming. It's all pretty heart wrenching thinking about these moments, why they happened and how I know I could have stopped them.

Starcraft has been the game, in which the skillful, the hardworking, the deserving were triumphant. I don't think starcraft is dying, nor do I think it will for a while, that being said though - Starcraft II right now, is not an enjoyable game for me to play.
Given my rather morbid talk about my WCS matches, I guess it would only make sense that the game hasn't been to kind to me recently within regards to WCS. But I want to delve into things a little further.

If you consider playing 30 games a day, in which you're supposed to go 50:50 on average if you pick your training partners right, that's a lot of losing to be done. It's something everybody who wants to succeed must manage, and manage you have to.
I used to practice, heading into late game scenarios, the whole game being one of those scenarios in which nobody knows who is gonna win, until some pivotal moves are made, and you breathe a huge sigh of relief that you pulled it out the bag, and then onto the next practice game.

Recently - from what I've watched and experienced, the outcome of the game is often decided, purely because of which coin people decided to flip. And people - if you don't know what I mean, I mean the 15 hatch vs the 10 pool, I mean the roach bane all in vs the 3 cc, I mean the 10 pool bane all in vs cc first - Is this what starcraft has turned into? This is not something I find fun, nor is it something I should find fun. I loved watching MMA at MLG come out with new builds, that would dictate if everything went as planned, and his opponent reacted as perfectly as he could - the game would still be 50:50 - I don't like freewins, nor do I like freelosses.
When you see a player win with some sort of allin, do you believe he deserved the game? Did he work harder than his opponent for that win? Did he study more? - More often than not when I'm performing an all in, I don't feel satisfied with the win, nor do I feel I deserved it. On the other side of the coin when I lose to something outrightly, purely because of a decision I made 2 minutes prior - I think that is fundamentally, a terrible terrible thing for starcraft 2 to have as part of it. Maybe it's just me, When I watched MMA vs MC - I felt nostalgic, the games were pretty good, But when I see games being dictated minutes before any of them knowing what on earth is happening (such as akilon waste and MMA's 2 rax) - It is this part of this game that I don't enjoy.

TvT was the matchup of position, it was great - it's now known among the professionals as literally picking 1 of the possible 5 bo's to do - and then playing either equally, ahead or simply behind.

This rant obviously came out of a rather defeated fellow - but still I think my worries and dislikes hold true. I want a game where I see perfection work, I want a game where the outcome isn't decided before even the victor knows he's going to win - I think starcraft Needs serious work, I'm willing to put it in, but it's going to be hard.

This could be perceived as a whine blog, and you're probably right - I may read over this in an hours time and feel why less strongly about what I feel about now.

Without picking on Starcraft too much, I've also played a bit of dota and league to the point where I pretty much know how they work, and the same problem exists in those games too, be it with lineups or what ever - at least they have things in place to help prevent it, such as bans, picks all that jazz - pretty drawn out processes, but they do the job to some extent - though outdrafting still happens.
The thing is, I don't care 10% as much about those games as I do Starcraft. And while this won't be a Naniwa Blog where I say a few outlandish things - I will say that Starcraft 2, and the amount of skill it requires should never have as much room for the silly amount of losses that happen in this game. - How could you stop them from happening? Honestly I'm not a game balancer, nor do I think I could be given my level of commitment to the game, but I do believe this aspect of starcraft is what affects the game more than anything. Excitement, joy - all of these things should peak upon watching a games highlights - be that a sick drop, flank or some uber fungal that hit 10+ mutas, instead I find myself staying up to watch innovation vs some zerg, only to see he lost the game 5 minutes before he knew he lost it, and for the games to leave me tutting and being anything but enthusiastic, I'd actually describe what I feel when I watch most games of starcraft as disappointed.

I don't know what happened exactly, and I know this kinda play has been around since the start, but it seems so much more exaggerated now than ever. I can only assume and use what I know now to try and figure it out, and the only thing that really makes sense is the fact that most new features in HOTS rely on dealing damage faster than everything in WoL.
Every new feature that is used in HoTS, well everything I can think of right now just deals more damage and faster than what it's predecessor did, or just more easily.
Oracles for protoss - you now can whip in a mineral line, kill 6 scvs and live to tell the tale before a terran is able to have anything there to stop it. That is not fucking starcraft. (They also want to buff the oracle, because it's apparently too slow.)
I can run randomly on creep, plant down 6 widow mines randomly and win an engagement despite totally not deserving to thanks to 6 huge detonations, neither is that. (widow mines are actually getting nerfed, which is cool - but I don't really think many people in the pro scene are whining about those too much currently.)
Hellbats - well luckily their reign is over, though I have a feeling they'll be rearing their ugly heads sooner than we think again, since a healthy 30 damage shot or what ever it is, aoe with blue flame upgrade alone for 100 minerals is too good to not use frankly.
Baneling busts of any varying degree consist of running suicidal units at a wall, and an army, and everything behind it. (If you're wondering why this became so much more prominent in HoTS than WOL, which I've heard a lot of people in my stream chat talk about when I lose to this strategy, then remember the fact that mutas were slower, didn't regen health like they do now and just weren't used 1/10 as much as they are now, I've had games where I go pure bio and hellbat, and actually ended up losing vs the sheer amount of mutas without having widow mines.)
A huge rant this turned out to be, and I guess if you want the TL:DR it would go something like this:
I think units deal way too much damage in Starcraft, I also believe allins should not be half as strong as they are now. I want the game to be filled with good moves, on the fly decision making and well thought out strategies, I don't want cheap wins in which neither the doer or the receiver knew was happening.|

I'm going to continue playing starcraft, and I will continue streaming - I've taken down the VoDs for now, as I really want to do well in tournaments. I still enjoy starcraft far more than any other game - and with that stated, I have no fear, and I don't want you to have either. But these are problems that do hinder the game, and do hinder peoples joy of the game that need to be considered.

Thanks for the read, may give a more thought out blog as to what I think would really help the current situation, rather than pointing out the problems.

Also - WCS really shouldn't be region locked as it is now. Having WCS KOREA - then WCS Europe (finalists Korean) and WCS NA being a miniature version of WCS KOREA is really, really boring - if it was residential it would be so much better.
When I know I went through the whole visa process to get to where I am now, I feel I was totally kicked in the face with this new layout by Blizzard, but I also feel this affected things way more negatively than any tournament overlap has ever done.

Original Link (on Facebook)

I think he's right about the game being decided too much on allins, cheeses and coinflipps.

so while everyone is complaining about stale matchup.
he complains about coinflips, all ins and cheeses? lol
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
saddaromma
Profile Joined April 2013
1129 Posts
October 08 2013 10:24 GMT
#1132
On October 08 2013 19:07 BurningRanger wrote:
Demuslim recently posted on his blog what he thinks about the current state of SC2 and I think it fits into this thread quite well, so I'll copy it over. (I hope this is allowed. If not, please delete.)
+ Show Spoiler +
I guess I blog pretty often, but needless to say, when something you care about is lost, it's always hurtful.

I just lost my WCS qualifier match vs Alicia 2-1. He's a great player, has done very well for any team he has been in, and I have only respect to show for him.
So with that out the way, I'd actually like to talk about Starcraft 2.

I actually love Starcraft 2, and have done ever so much since its release, my love and passion for gaming in general is so strong, that I chose this as my profession, so before any hate is thrown my way, I dedicate my life to this, but I also sacrifice it.
Starcraft 2 Began a while ago, epic matches - epic strategies, it was just epic. Screaming fans at events, Characters you can only love to follow leading the scene, and hey, without all that - I just loved playing it. But... There's always a but...

Starcraft has been described by many, Great, bad, exciting, boring you name it. But recently - and this has not been a spike of the moment thought process for me, it is starting to get to me.
I spent months streaming practically 8 hours a day to hopefully many of you, while I hope I helped teach you guys things/pass the time better for you guys or even just was a friendly face to make you feel less lonely - this at least professionally backfires immensely. There was so much information on my game throughout the web that people could get and learn my game and counter me. It's happened countless times, and people tend to wonder why I do so poorly on special occasions. Well - when you literally have 100's of hours of documented footage on yourself, for not only your fans, but your opposition to study, as much as I love the idea of sharing starcraft, and the secrets behind it - it has severely hindered my tournament results, especially those on LAN when my opposition know I'm attending.
That is one of the reasons I've been streaming less recently - starcraft is a very, very unforgiving game, which is why I love it, but the absolute one thing I hate, is that it's often unforgiving through no fault of my own.

To talk a little about what I mean - Vs Apoc in the WCS, our 3rd game in a 1-1 series - He went for a reaper build, in which he lost a reaper and killed a marine, and went back home. Starcraft is often a book in which you try to read while filling in the blanks. I filled in the blanks with what I deemed most logical - (That he didn't go 2 rax reaper and hide them randomly on the map) but he did, and I paid the price. Was this necessarily being outplayed? I guess In some regards, the other way to look at it is a little bit of a fluke.
My bo3 vs suppy which lasted an astonishing 7 minutes in total I think was very much so the result that I streamed, had a lot of info on me playing the way I did, and he has subsequently told me he did study me, and blind countered me.
Vs Alicia just recently, I lost to a blink stalker 1 base build which I knew was coming. It's all pretty heart wrenching thinking about these moments, why they happened and how I know I could have stopped them.

Starcraft has been the game, in which the skillful, the hardworking, the deserving were triumphant. I don't think starcraft is dying, nor do I think it will for a while, that being said though - Starcraft II right now, is not an enjoyable game for me to play.
Given my rather morbid talk about my WCS matches, I guess it would only make sense that the game hasn't been to kind to me recently within regards to WCS. But I want to delve into things a little further.

If you consider playing 30 games a day, in which you're supposed to go 50:50 on average if you pick your training partners right, that's a lot of losing to be done. It's something everybody who wants to succeed must manage, and manage you have to.
I used to practice, heading into late game scenarios, the whole game being one of those scenarios in which nobody knows who is gonna win, until some pivotal moves are made, and you breathe a huge sigh of relief that you pulled it out the bag, and then onto the next practice game.

Recently - from what I've watched and experienced, the outcome of the game is often decided, purely because of which coin people decided to flip. And people - if you don't know what I mean, I mean the 15 hatch vs the 10 pool, I mean the roach bane all in vs the 3 cc, I mean the 10 pool bane all in vs cc first - Is this what starcraft has turned into? This is not something I find fun, nor is it something I should find fun. I loved watching MMA at MLG come out with new builds, that would dictate if everything went as planned, and his opponent reacted as perfectly as he could - the game would still be 50:50 - I don't like freewins, nor do I like freelosses.
When you see a player win with some sort of allin, do you believe he deserved the game? Did he work harder than his opponent for that win? Did he study more? - More often than not when I'm performing an all in, I don't feel satisfied with the win, nor do I feel I deserved it. On the other side of the coin when I lose to something outrightly, purely because of a decision I made 2 minutes prior - I think that is fundamentally, a terrible terrible thing for starcraft 2 to have as part of it. Maybe it's just me, When I watched MMA vs MC - I felt nostalgic, the games were pretty good, But when I see games being dictated minutes before any of them knowing what on earth is happening (such as akilon waste and MMA's 2 rax) - It is this part of this game that I don't enjoy.

TvT was the matchup of position, it was great - it's now known among the professionals as literally picking 1 of the possible 5 bo's to do - and then playing either equally, ahead or simply behind.

This rant obviously came out of a rather defeated fellow - but still I think my worries and dislikes hold true. I want a game where I see perfection work, I want a game where the outcome isn't decided before even the victor knows he's going to win - I think starcraft Needs serious work, I'm willing to put it in, but it's going to be hard.

This could be perceived as a whine blog, and you're probably right - I may read over this in an hours time and feel why less strongly about what I feel about now.

Without picking on Starcraft too much, I've also played a bit of dota and league to the point where I pretty much know how they work, and the same problem exists in those games too, be it with lineups or what ever - at least they have things in place to help prevent it, such as bans, picks all that jazz - pretty drawn out processes, but they do the job to some extent - though outdrafting still happens.
The thing is, I don't care 10% as much about those games as I do Starcraft. And while this won't be a Naniwa Blog where I say a few outlandish things - I will say that Starcraft 2, and the amount of skill it requires should never have as much room for the silly amount of losses that happen in this game. - How could you stop them from happening? Honestly I'm not a game balancer, nor do I think I could be given my level of commitment to the game, but I do believe this aspect of starcraft is what affects the game more than anything. Excitement, joy - all of these things should peak upon watching a games highlights - be that a sick drop, flank or some uber fungal that hit 10+ mutas, instead I find myself staying up to watch innovation vs some zerg, only to see he lost the game 5 minutes before he knew he lost it, and for the games to leave me tutting and being anything but enthusiastic, I'd actually describe what I feel when I watch most games of starcraft as disappointed.

I don't know what happened exactly, and I know this kinda play has been around since the start, but it seems so much more exaggerated now than ever. I can only assume and use what I know now to try and figure it out, and the only thing that really makes sense is the fact that most new features in HOTS rely on dealing damage faster than everything in WoL.
Every new feature that is used in HoTS, well everything I can think of right now just deals more damage and faster than what it's predecessor did, or just more easily.
Oracles for protoss - you now can whip in a mineral line, kill 6 scvs and live to tell the tale before a terran is able to have anything there to stop it. That is not fucking starcraft. (They also want to buff the oracle, because it's apparently too slow.)
I can run randomly on creep, plant down 6 widow mines randomly and win an engagement despite totally not deserving to thanks to 6 huge detonations, neither is that. (widow mines are actually getting nerfed, which is cool - but I don't really think many people in the pro scene are whining about those too much currently.)
Hellbats - well luckily their reign is over, though I have a feeling they'll be rearing their ugly heads sooner than we think again, since a healthy 30 damage shot or what ever it is, aoe with blue flame upgrade alone for 100 minerals is too good to not use frankly.
Baneling busts of any varying degree consist of running suicidal units at a wall, and an army, and everything behind it. (If you're wondering why this became so much more prominent in HoTS than WOL, which I've heard a lot of people in my stream chat talk about when I lose to this strategy, then remember the fact that mutas were slower, didn't regen health like they do now and just weren't used 1/10 as much as they are now, I've had games where I go pure bio and hellbat, and actually ended up losing vs the sheer amount of mutas without having widow mines.)
A huge rant this turned out to be, and I guess if you want the TL:DR it would go something like this:
I think units deal way too much damage in Starcraft, I also believe allins should not be half as strong as they are now. I want the game to be filled with good moves, on the fly decision making and well thought out strategies, I don't want cheap wins in which neither the doer or the receiver knew was happening.|

I'm going to continue playing starcraft, and I will continue streaming - I've taken down the VoDs for now, as I really want to do well in tournaments. I still enjoy starcraft far more than any other game - and with that stated, I have no fear, and I don't want you to have either. But these are problems that do hinder the game, and do hinder peoples joy of the game that need to be considered.

Thanks for the read, may give a more thought out blog as to what I think would really help the current situation, rather than pointing out the problems.

Also - WCS really shouldn't be region locked as it is now. Having WCS KOREA - then WCS Europe (finalists Korean) and WCS NA being a miniature version of WCS KOREA is really, really boring - if it was residential it would be so much better.
When I know I went through the whole visa process to get to where I am now, I feel I was totally kicked in the face with this new layout by Blizzard, but I also feel this affected things way more negatively than any tournament overlap has ever done.

Original Link (on Facebook)

I think he's right about the game being decided too much on allins, cheeses and coinflipps.

That was a good read, ty. I hope it reaches Blizzard.
MikeMM
Profile Joined November 2012
Russian Federation221 Posts
October 08 2013 10:26 GMT
#1133
On October 08 2013 19:10 ETisME wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2013 19:07 BurningRanger wrote:
Demuslim recently posted on his blog what he thinks about the current state of SC2 and I think it fits into this thread quite well, so I'll copy it over. (I hope this is allowed. If not, please delete.)
+ Show Spoiler +
I guess I blog pretty often, but needless to say, when something you care about is lost, it's always hurtful.

I just lost my WCS qualifier match vs Alicia 2-1. He's a great player, has done very well for any team he has been in, and I have only respect to show for him.
So with that out the way, I'd actually like to talk about Starcraft 2.

I actually love Starcraft 2, and have done ever so much since its release, my love and passion for gaming in general is so strong, that I chose this as my profession, so before any hate is thrown my way, I dedicate my life to this, but I also sacrifice it.
Starcraft 2 Began a while ago, epic matches - epic strategies, it was just epic. Screaming fans at events, Characters you can only love to follow leading the scene, and hey, without all that - I just loved playing it. But... There's always a but...

Starcraft has been described by many, Great, bad, exciting, boring you name it. But recently - and this has not been a spike of the moment thought process for me, it is starting to get to me.
I spent months streaming practically 8 hours a day to hopefully many of you, while I hope I helped teach you guys things/pass the time better for you guys or even just was a friendly face to make you feel less lonely - this at least professionally backfires immensely. There was so much information on my game throughout the web that people could get and learn my game and counter me. It's happened countless times, and people tend to wonder why I do so poorly on special occasions. Well - when you literally have 100's of hours of documented footage on yourself, for not only your fans, but your opposition to study, as much as I love the idea of sharing starcraft, and the secrets behind it - it has severely hindered my tournament results, especially those on LAN when my opposition know I'm attending.
That is one of the reasons I've been streaming less recently - starcraft is a very, very unforgiving game, which is why I love it, but the absolute one thing I hate, is that it's often unforgiving through no fault of my own.

To talk a little about what I mean - Vs Apoc in the WCS, our 3rd game in a 1-1 series - He went for a reaper build, in which he lost a reaper and killed a marine, and went back home. Starcraft is often a book in which you try to read while filling in the blanks. I filled in the blanks with what I deemed most logical - (That he didn't go 2 rax reaper and hide them randomly on the map) but he did, and I paid the price. Was this necessarily being outplayed? I guess In some regards, the other way to look at it is a little bit of a fluke.
My bo3 vs suppy which lasted an astonishing 7 minutes in total I think was very much so the result that I streamed, had a lot of info on me playing the way I did, and he has subsequently told me he did study me, and blind countered me.
Vs Alicia just recently, I lost to a blink stalker 1 base build which I knew was coming. It's all pretty heart wrenching thinking about these moments, why they happened and how I know I could have stopped them.

Starcraft has been the game, in which the skillful, the hardworking, the deserving were triumphant. I don't think starcraft is dying, nor do I think it will for a while, that being said though - Starcraft II right now, is not an enjoyable game for me to play.
Given my rather morbid talk about my WCS matches, I guess it would only make sense that the game hasn't been to kind to me recently within regards to WCS. But I want to delve into things a little further.

If you consider playing 30 games a day, in which you're supposed to go 50:50 on average if you pick your training partners right, that's a lot of losing to be done. It's something everybody who wants to succeed must manage, and manage you have to.
I used to practice, heading into late game scenarios, the whole game being one of those scenarios in which nobody knows who is gonna win, until some pivotal moves are made, and you breathe a huge sigh of relief that you pulled it out the bag, and then onto the next practice game.

Recently - from what I've watched and experienced, the outcome of the game is often decided, purely because of which coin people decided to flip. And people - if you don't know what I mean, I mean the 15 hatch vs the 10 pool, I mean the roach bane all in vs the 3 cc, I mean the 10 pool bane all in vs cc first - Is this what starcraft has turned into? This is not something I find fun, nor is it something I should find fun. I loved watching MMA at MLG come out with new builds, that would dictate if everything went as planned, and his opponent reacted as perfectly as he could - the game would still be 50:50 - I don't like freewins, nor do I like freelosses.
When you see a player win with some sort of allin, do you believe he deserved the game? Did he work harder than his opponent for that win? Did he study more? - More often than not when I'm performing an all in, I don't feel satisfied with the win, nor do I feel I deserved it. On the other side of the coin when I lose to something outrightly, purely because of a decision I made 2 minutes prior - I think that is fundamentally, a terrible terrible thing for starcraft 2 to have as part of it. Maybe it's just me, When I watched MMA vs MC - I felt nostalgic, the games were pretty good, But when I see games being dictated minutes before any of them knowing what on earth is happening (such as akilon waste and MMA's 2 rax) - It is this part of this game that I don't enjoy.

TvT was the matchup of position, it was great - it's now known among the professionals as literally picking 1 of the possible 5 bo's to do - and then playing either equally, ahead or simply behind.

This rant obviously came out of a rather defeated fellow - but still I think my worries and dislikes hold true. I want a game where I see perfection work, I want a game where the outcome isn't decided before even the victor knows he's going to win - I think starcraft Needs serious work, I'm willing to put it in, but it's going to be hard.

This could be perceived as a whine blog, and you're probably right - I may read over this in an hours time and feel why less strongly about what I feel about now.

Without picking on Starcraft too much, I've also played a bit of dota and league to the point where I pretty much know how they work, and the same problem exists in those games too, be it with lineups or what ever - at least they have things in place to help prevent it, such as bans, picks all that jazz - pretty drawn out processes, but they do the job to some extent - though outdrafting still happens.
The thing is, I don't care 10% as much about those games as I do Starcraft. And while this won't be a Naniwa Blog where I say a few outlandish things - I will say that Starcraft 2, and the amount of skill it requires should never have as much room for the silly amount of losses that happen in this game. - How could you stop them from happening? Honestly I'm not a game balancer, nor do I think I could be given my level of commitment to the game, but I do believe this aspect of starcraft is what affects the game more than anything. Excitement, joy - all of these things should peak upon watching a games highlights - be that a sick drop, flank or some uber fungal that hit 10+ mutas, instead I find myself staying up to watch innovation vs some zerg, only to see he lost the game 5 minutes before he knew he lost it, and for the games to leave me tutting and being anything but enthusiastic, I'd actually describe what I feel when I watch most games of starcraft as disappointed.

I don't know what happened exactly, and I know this kinda play has been around since the start, but it seems so much more exaggerated now than ever. I can only assume and use what I know now to try and figure it out, and the only thing that really makes sense is the fact that most new features in HOTS rely on dealing damage faster than everything in WoL.
Every new feature that is used in HoTS, well everything I can think of right now just deals more damage and faster than what it's predecessor did, or just more easily.
Oracles for protoss - you now can whip in a mineral line, kill 6 scvs and live to tell the tale before a terran is able to have anything there to stop it. That is not fucking starcraft. (They also want to buff the oracle, because it's apparently too slow.)
I can run randomly on creep, plant down 6 widow mines randomly and win an engagement despite totally not deserving to thanks to 6 huge detonations, neither is that. (widow mines are actually getting nerfed, which is cool - but I don't really think many people in the pro scene are whining about those too much currently.)
Hellbats - well luckily their reign is over, though I have a feeling they'll be rearing their ugly heads sooner than we think again, since a healthy 30 damage shot or what ever it is, aoe with blue flame upgrade alone for 100 minerals is too good to not use frankly.
Baneling busts of any varying degree consist of running suicidal units at a wall, and an army, and everything behind it. (If you're wondering why this became so much more prominent in HoTS than WOL, which I've heard a lot of people in my stream chat talk about when I lose to this strategy, then remember the fact that mutas were slower, didn't regen health like they do now and just weren't used 1/10 as much as they are now, I've had games where I go pure bio and hellbat, and actually ended up losing vs the sheer amount of mutas without having widow mines.)
A huge rant this turned out to be, and I guess if you want the TL:DR it would go something like this:
I think units deal way too much damage in Starcraft, I also believe allins should not be half as strong as they are now. I want the game to be filled with good moves, on the fly decision making and well thought out strategies, I don't want cheap wins in which neither the doer or the receiver knew was happening.|

I'm going to continue playing starcraft, and I will continue streaming - I've taken down the VoDs for now, as I really want to do well in tournaments. I still enjoy starcraft far more than any other game - and with that stated, I have no fear, and I don't want you to have either. But these are problems that do hinder the game, and do hinder peoples joy of the game that need to be considered.

Thanks for the read, may give a more thought out blog as to what I think would really help the current situation, rather than pointing out the problems.

Also - WCS really shouldn't be region locked as it is now. Having WCS KOREA - then WCS Europe (finalists Korean) and WCS NA being a miniature version of WCS KOREA is really, really boring - if it was residential it would be so much better.
When I know I went through the whole visa process to get to where I am now, I feel I was totally kicked in the face with this new layout by Blizzard, but I also feel this affected things way more negatively than any tournament overlap has ever done.

Original Link (on Facebook)

I think he's right about the game being decided too much on allins, cheeses and coinflipps.

so while everyone is complaining about stale matchup.
he complains about coinflips, all ins and cheeses? lol

He also said "I think units deal way too much damage in Starcraft".
Along with economy this is one of the biggest problem of SC2.
Sprouter
Profile Joined December 2009
United States1724 Posts
October 08 2013 10:32 GMT
#1134
I do like reading all of these tiny details of BW that I had no idea mattered despite watching it for 4 years. :D
Bacillus
Profile Joined August 2010
Finland1921 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-10-08 11:25:38
October 08 2013 11:23 GMT
#1135
On October 08 2013 17:24 RampancyTW wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2013 17:18 saddaromma wrote:
On October 08 2013 17:13 RampancyTW wrote:
More shameless stealing from reddit:
In the last 20 Brood War OSLs, there were 13 different winners, and in the last 20 MSLs there were 12. Or combined, 21 unique winners in 40 different star leagues over eight years (i.e. five leagues per year).
The Liquipedia page for the OSL even talks about the "Curse of the OSL Champion":
The champion of the previous Starleague would fail to advance out of the Round of 16, usually with a victory in their opening match and then two subsequent losses.
It's worth noting that even at their most dominant, Jaedong-level Korean BW pros had around 70% win ratios over the calendar year. That is, they lost more than a quarter of their games. Flash was considered impossibly dominant, sustaining a ~75% win rate through 2009-2011.

MMA, Polt, Taeja, Innovation are around ~65%. MC 62%. Jaedong 63%. What's your point?
That BW didn't have near the consistency of results that people like to believe? Also, a healthy MVP is just as dominant as the non-Flash BW top guys, and the current top tier is close.

I think MVP is actually a pretty good demonstration of why people feel SC2 is inconsistent. Back in 2011 he went from a championship to getting knocked out in a ro32 to another championship to ro32 knockout. He's insanely good, but he still gets beaten by some relatively random players (Ganzi and July, I believe) in every other tournament. All this while GSL was roughly the only thing to focus on Korea.

Meanwhile someone like Flash was in almost(?) every ro8 in two simultaneous starleagues between 2010 and 2012 while also producing monstrous results in proleague.

In BW good players usually start exiting tournament when the bracket gets too small to fit in all the ridiculously good players. In SC2 you just never know. Some relatively random guy might knock out the tourney favourite at ro32 only to go out in ro16 sweep.

Also, as a bit of an interesting detail, the three people repeat big korean tournament wins are Nestea, MVP and MC. All of them had taken their first title by GSL season 4 and last big Korean tournament won by them is MVP over Squirtle in 2012 GSL Season 2, over 16 months ago.

I haven't been following SC2 that closely throughout 2012 though, please do correct me if I missed something.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12161 Posts
October 08 2013 11:36 GMT
#1136
I wish this thread would just die.

I'm willing to accept that it started from a good intention, even though it isn't really the forum for it in the first place. But even then, there is nothing more to gain from it. Just look at Velr post, nothing personal it's just on top of the page. Litterally, it's a post devoid of all content. There is not a shred of discussion, it's not argumentative in the least, there is no new information, there is no solution. So many posts are like his.

I know it's cool to sit around in a circle and try to burn stuff. I just wish you would do it in a place where bystanders can't inhale the fumes.
No will to live, no wish to die
unigolyn
Profile Joined August 2013
Estonia1272 Posts
October 08 2013 11:38 GMT
#1137
On October 08 2013 12:16 Highways wrote:
- SC2 has auto surround, so you do not need to spilt up your army into very small chunks to manually surround.


- BW the units were spaced out, so it was easier to micro individual units. SC2 is just blob vs blob.


So which is it? I understand that fanboyism requires holding contradictory positions depending on which makes your argument look better in a particular discussion, but you literally did it in a single bullet list.

Play SC2 Terran and tell us again about not microing your army, and "blob vs blob".
Show me what passes for fury amongst your misbegotten kind.
Sissors
Profile Joined March 2012
1395 Posts
October 08 2013 11:47 GMT
#1138
HotS is still very new (and SC2 too btw). I wouldn't call it good if now one person completely dominated it for a long time.
DeMuslim:
I also believe allins should not be half as strong as they are now

I disagree there. I think all-ins should be twice as strong as they are now.

Okay a bit less. But one of my main problems with SC2 is the lack of actual strategy. But if one player goes for a fast expo, imo an all-in should be an autowin for the other player. You should be able to punish greed, and right now that is pretty much impossible.
The main problem for me is then that there are some options for punishment, but the majority are blind-counters. And those I don't like. IMO in a strategy game if player A knows what B is doing, while B doesn't know what A is doing, it should pretty much be an autowin for player A. But that very obviously is not the case in SC2, as obvious from pro games where it takes 10 minutes before a player bothers to do some scouting of the opponent.

So while I don't like blind-counters being important, I also don't think all-ins should be nerfed so we have yet again an NR15-NR20 game where one battle decides all.

Related to one battle deciding all: That is something I also see much comments on. And I completely agree that is very bad. However you do need to watch out it isn't changed so one battle still decides it, but now instead of the game being over you first have a 10 minute long death animation.
saddaromma
Profile Joined April 2013
1129 Posts
October 08 2013 11:52 GMT
#1139
On October 08 2013 20:47 Sissors wrote:
HotS is still very new (and SC2 too btw). I wouldn't call it good if now one person completely dominated it for a long time.
Show nested quote +
DeMuslim:
I also believe allins should not be half as strong as they are now

I disagree there. I think all-ins should be twice as strong as they are now.

Okay a bit less. But one of my main problems with SC2 is the lack of actual strategy. But if one player goes for a fast expo, imo an all-in should be an autowin for the other player. You should be able to punish greed, and right now that is pretty much impossible.
The main problem for me is then that there are some options for punishment, but the majority are blind-counters. And those I don't like. IMO in a strategy game if player A knows what B is doing, while B doesn't know what A is doing, it should pretty much be an autowin for player A. But that very obviously is not the case in SC2, as obvious from pro games where it takes 10 minutes before a player bothers to do some scouting of the opponent.

So while I don't like blind-counters being important, I also don't think all-ins should be nerfed so we have yet again an NR15-NR20 game where one battle decides all.

Related to one battle deciding all: That is something I also see much comments on. And I completely agree that is very bad. However you do need to watch out it isn't changed so one battle still decides it, but now instead of the game being over you first have a 10 minute long death animation.

I don't wanna be a dick or anything but what you're suggesting is every player gonna be one-basing since allins gonna kill you if you expand. And wtf with expanding = greed? What a nonsense. Even 3rd CC before barack is not a greed, its calculated cheese/risk.

Greed is when you have lots of money and you want more. Pls, keep that term out of here.
lolmlg
Profile Joined November 2011
619 Posts
October 08 2013 11:52 GMT
#1140
On September 21 2013 03:40 Xeris wrote:
What's the problem: I feel like SC2's gameplay is inherently less fun to watch than Brood War, aside from the graphics. Matches feel stale and anticlimactic.

Ok, you're neglecting something huge here, aside from the fact that graphics aren't an aspect of gameplay. Here it is: the graphical style of SC2 is fucking awful for spectators.

Around the time DotA2 launched, there were tons of posts about how "kiddie" LoL looked and how DotA2 would inevitably take over because it was allegedly so much more adult. Let's put aside for a second that in DotA2 you play as goblins riding giant yellow bats and catching people with magic lassos. The graphics of DotA2 are a lot darker, a lot more indistinct, a lot more brown and black. Like SC2, compared with Brood War.

There's only one problem. Why do you think teams in professional sports wear different colours? Why do you think they play on a brightly-coloured field, in the sunshine? Why don't they play in the dark, on a dried-up peat bog, viewed through panes of frosted glass? Isn't that what ADULTS would do?

Well, if they did that, spectators would have a hard time immediately recognizing what was going on. And that's why SC2 didn't retain viewers from Brood War and it's why DotA2 is not going to take viewers away from LoL. The largest barrier to a new e-sports spectator is figuring out what the fuck is going on. Designing a game to be grimdark and for units to ball up and blend into each other doesn't make the game easy or fun to watch. Applying a fisheye lens effect and making terrain stick out over top of the action doesn't make the game easy or fun to watch.

This is by no means my only criticism of SC2 but it's the one I've been forced to come back to ever since the beta. I knew we would end up here and there are a lot of reasons why, but honestly, I think this is one of the biggest ones.

The other big one is that Blizzard designed the game to be anti-micro, giving every race the ability to completely stop or severely slow down the enemy's units. This was an error in WoL and it continued in HotS.
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