|
On October 08 2013 23:41 Ctone23 wrote:
Yes it's quite funny to see the mob mentality going on at snipealots stream when Bisu plays. Everyone in there is just bashing sc2 and saying how BW was/is the best game ever made, bla bla.
I think this personifies the low maturity level currently in the e-sports scene. How can you even begin to think a cognitively intense game such as SC2 or BW, where balance is based off 1v1s, can compete to a free game that promotes team play.
I'm not saying LoL isn't hard, or difficult, or whatever (Hell, I haven't played it once). All i'm saying is that SC2 is a niche game nowadays, with a lot of variables and extremely unforgiving. People need to learn to chill out and let the game run its course.
Just because everyone creates a thread or says SC2 is a ded game doesn't mean you have to think that way. Learn to think for yourselves muppets!
Hmmm i have 20+ posts and i think 10+ is in this thread alone. Maybe im feeling too strongly in this. Still.... i cant help but hate blizzard for shutting down BW pro scene. Yes BW might be declining to moba everywhere in the world but Korea is the home of BW. To see it decline in korea is a shame. To see blizzard ACTIVELY shutting it down is an unforgivable OUTRAGE. and all the while trying to portray themselves as promoters of esports. I hate lol. coz i played dota then tried lol and realised its definitely inferior in heroes strategy skill variables every bloody thing u can think of. And it makes me mad that the nation that created esport and dominated a game as great as BW would ever fall in love with lol. Thus I conclude that is why I blame blizzard for everything i dislike in games right now.
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 08 2013 23:53 Kheve wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:41 Ctone23 wrote:
Yes it's quite funny to see the mob mentality going on at snipealots stream when Bisu plays. Everyone in there is just bashing sc2 and saying how BW was/is the best game ever made, bla bla.
I think this personifies the low maturity level currently in the e-sports scene. How can you even begin to think a cognitively intense game such as SC2 or BW, where balance is based off 1v1s, can compete to a free game that promotes team play.
I'm not saying LoL isn't hard, or difficult, or whatever (Hell, I haven't played it once). All i'm saying is that SC2 is a niche game nowadays, with a lot of variables and extremely unforgiving. People need to learn to chill out and let the game run its course.
Just because everyone creates a thread or says SC2 is a ded game doesn't mean you have to think that way. Learn to think for yourselves muppets! Hmmm i have 20+ posts and i think 10+ is in this thread alone. Maybe im feeling too strongly in this. Still.... i cant help but hate blizzard for shutting down BW pro scene. Yes BW might be declining to moba everywhere in the world but Korea is the home of BW. To see it decline in korea is a shame. To see blizzard ACTIVELY shutting it down is an unforgivable OUTRAGE. and all the while trying to portray themselves as promoters of esports. I hate lol. coz i played dota then tried lol and realised its definitely inferior in heroes strategy skill variables every bloody thing u can think of. And it makes me mad that the nation that created esport and dominated a game as great as BW would ever fall in love with lol. Thus I conclude that is why I blame blizzard for everything i dislike in games right now.
You would be mad regardless, since as some Koreans pointed out well, good 90% of koreans if they did play BW, they played BGH and customs (Aeon of Strife, anyone :D?) most of the time. LoL is better suited for casual stuff like that, IMO.
|
On October 08 2013 23:37 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:33 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On October 08 2013 23:28 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:18 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:00 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 22:54 Kheve wrote:http://baseportal.de/baseportal.pl?htx=/MyTube/sctv/News_F2&db=Com_1&cid=334&uid=&sid=183966388624253118011888430722a 2007 news article on the rise of OGN rivaling free korean national broadcasters. That was how big it was. Ppl who have never been in korea who have never seen cybercafes in every corner of the block with 100-400 pcs all filled with ppl playing sc from kids to officeworkers who jes got off work and now gonna fight ea other to release stress will never comprehend how big sc was. Until the day when your companies marketing dept ask you whether its better to sponsor a traditional tournament/team or a game title, you have not seen esports. Company starcraft tournaments were also the norm. It was madness. Phenomenon as some call it. Comparing any other scene to BW back then (other than wat lol/dota is and might be) is sheer nonsense. Does any other gamer command salaries of 30k USD a month other than in BW? I high doubt it. Jaedong at his peak was commanding 300k pa. Michael Jordan he is not, but hey neither is any other gamer but BW pros come closest. Ofc the good times are past. Theres no longer millions of viewers. Everyone changed to lol. Samsung just bought a LOL team. All money goes to lol and here we are explaining why sc2 was the most brilliant thing blizzard ever did for 'esports' like they ever cared about anything but how much money they can make from the players of their game. In korea, its how much player can make from the game (and not a single cent came from the developer). ![[image loading]](http://seoulspace.co.kr/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/2009-final.jpeg) ![[image loading]](http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2011/12/31/211530.jpg) This picture says it all .. lol/dota hasn't topped this yet .. this isn't about prize money, it's not even about the number of viewers .. it's about acceptance .. SC2 wasn't accepted .. it was forced .. This is at Haeundae right? Having been to Busan, I'm not sure how many of them were actual fans and how people here count fans in the first place. To answer a question that was posted above, I have absolutely no idea how many people during the hayday of BW in Korea were watching, however, having lived here for awhile and talking with a lot of people about BW/SC2, it was big, but I think people here are overestimating. First off, while BW was undoubtly popular (everyone knows what it is, and to an extent, some of the units/players), who are the fans? Are the fans people who play/watch regularly? The ones who turn it on once in awhile? The Super Bowl for example had 111 million people watch during the Pats/Giants game but no one is saying that there are 111 million football fans. The picture at Haeundae is incredibly awesome and I know lots of people here were moved by it, but at the same time, stuff like that happens at Haeundae all the time (events), and while no, there's not regularly that many people there watching, I can guarantee that not everyone there is a fan and people who are watching are just people who happen to be at the beach at night. Which is a stupid amount of people in Korea. Secondly, people here are arguing for the depth of BW vs SC2 and that BW is more deep and whatever. I doubt really that many people knew the tricks of BW compared to what people here think. Just like in every game, there are people who are super interested and know the tricks inside out, but there's just as many people who play the game just to play it without knowing the magic of the reaver. Things like JD's muta micro is impressive to see and hard to pull off, but JD did a similar muta micro earlier in the year in SC2 against infestors that was just as impressive to see. I don't see anyone talking about that. That's not even to say that SC2 is deeper or better than BW, but that people are putting such a large emphesis on why SC2 is a "worse" game than BW. It's not, it's absolutely different. There are a lot of things that SC2 can learn from BW that would make it better but it's not a bad game like everyone is claiming. Finally people who use the fact that BW is so popular in Korea, and that SC2 killed it off or whatever and use the amount of fans of BW vs SC2 as proof is fundamentally flawed. What other competition was there for BW? Sudden Attack? Crazy Arcade? Seriously, there was nothing. Even if SC2 was never released, or hell, if SC2 was BW v2, it wouldn't have beaten LoL. I don't think people understand how not popular 1v1 games are. EVERYONE at PC Bang's plays multiplayer, I have never seen anyone in the last 3-4 years even attempt to play a 1v1 BW/SC2 game. And frankly it's just sad to see people call LoL a no skill boring etc etc game cause it's absolutely dominating. It would have dominated BW no question. To have people make these comparisons like they were 1:1 is just maddening and it helps nothing. We get it, BW fans hate SC2 fans. They hope SC2 dies or changes to be like BW. They want their heroes like Bisu to come back. But this scene is changing and has been changing regardless of BW. Come to Korea and this fact is as clear as day. To me, It's not about wanting SC2 to become BW nor BW going to come back again. Most BW fans know that it won't happen anymore. We also know that it wasn't just SC2 that killed BW. Kpop killed MBC Game, for example The thing is, many SC2 fans thinks SC2 is going to become famous internationally like how BW was famous in Korea and BW fans know that will never happen. Show me post of that? I havent readed anybody said that SC2 will have much teamhouses, full offline teamleagues and leagues. Or what do you mean with "famous" exactly? Can you open up that little bit? Did you follow the Kespa vs Blizzard lawsuits? Blizzard themselves wants Kespa organizers to play SC2 instead of BW with their current teams. What part of 'famous' do you not understand? Sure SC2 is famous but is it accepted?
In your original post you said famous. How you count it? Overall, I think SC2 is more famous than BW has ever been. More people have heard of sc2 and saw it than BW. But that's not direct answer what you said.
Is SC2 accepted? Yes it is. Im not sure what you mean with this? It's not less accepted that any other game.
Do you mean is e-sport accepted?
|
On October 08 2013 23:50 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:47 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:47 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:46 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:44 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:40 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:38 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:35 Kheve wrote:
We understand MOBA have long overtaken RTS. That is evident even in BW days back in 5.84c dota when dota was as popular in SEA as BW was in korea. The point is, would BW with its history and existing infrastructure stand a better chance against MOBA? I would definitely say so.
Would a joint venture between Blizzard and Kespa right at the launch of SC2 stand a better chance than the 'HAHAHA SC2 gonna own and this time there is nothing Kespa can do legally unless they hack battlenet' revenge mentality of blizzard served SC2 as an esport better? I definitely think so. SC2 was made without a care for esport. Blizzard wanted to koreans to pay them profits for the 10 year+ real esport industry as if it were a game like wow where they make hundreds of millions a month from the player base. Blizzard was interested in SC2 as a 'game' that gives them players hard earned money.
Mark my words, one day when either lol/dota reach BW popularity and legitimacy (lol recognised by some US states and dota recognized by china or prefecture government i cant remember), the LAST thing valve or riot will ever do is introduce a sequel. One simply does not make tennis 2.0. You cannot make a sequel to MOBA game :.. Dota 2? Remake with better interface != sequel. Dude, dota 2 players aren't playing for the story. Right, 50+% are both playing and paying for the story in SC2's case however. I feel so bad for those people who are playing for the story... Yeah, i feel bad for them too. Thank god i am playing for the gameplay of campaign, it is like 100500 times more awesome than BW's campaign gameplay (story for BW is better in similar proportion however).
I miss the huge, epic missions of the BW campaign, where you would creep across the map, methodically eliminating bases, expanding, and actually having to plan a bit/use patience. SC2 had some great single player maps and entertaining missions, but sitting on 1-2 bases with no injects and that stunted creep spread mechanic and spamming stupidly overpowered roaches got old. Fast.
Blizzard, please give me enough credit to give me at least a few large, long missions that feel more like actual battles and less like Kerrigan just walking around and randomly killing shit for 15 mins on her own.
|
On October 08 2013 23:57 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:37 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:33 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On October 08 2013 23:28 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:18 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:00 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 22:54 Kheve wrote:http://baseportal.de/baseportal.pl?htx=/MyTube/sctv/News_F2&db=Com_1&cid=334&uid=&sid=183966388624253118011888430722a 2007 news article on the rise of OGN rivaling free korean national broadcasters. That was how big it was. Ppl who have never been in korea who have never seen cybercafes in every corner of the block with 100-400 pcs all filled with ppl playing sc from kids to officeworkers who jes got off work and now gonna fight ea other to release stress will never comprehend how big sc was. Until the day when your companies marketing dept ask you whether its better to sponsor a traditional tournament/team or a game title, you have not seen esports. Company starcraft tournaments were also the norm. It was madness. Phenomenon as some call it. Comparing any other scene to BW back then (other than wat lol/dota is and might be) is sheer nonsense. Does any other gamer command salaries of 30k USD a month other than in BW? I high doubt it. Jaedong at his peak was commanding 300k pa. Michael Jordan he is not, but hey neither is any other gamer but BW pros come closest. Ofc the good times are past. Theres no longer millions of viewers. Everyone changed to lol. Samsung just bought a LOL team. All money goes to lol and here we are explaining why sc2 was the most brilliant thing blizzard ever did for 'esports' like they ever cared about anything but how much money they can make from the players of their game. In korea, its how much player can make from the game (and not a single cent came from the developer). This picture says it all .. lol/dota hasn't topped this yet .. this isn't about prize money, it's not even about the number of viewers .. it's about acceptance .. SC2 wasn't accepted .. it was forced .. This is at Haeundae right? Having been to Busan, I'm not sure how many of them were actual fans and how people here count fans in the first place. To answer a question that was posted above, I have absolutely no idea how many people during the hayday of BW in Korea were watching, however, having lived here for awhile and talking with a lot of people about BW/SC2, it was big, but I think people here are overestimating. First off, while BW was undoubtly popular (everyone knows what it is, and to an extent, some of the units/players), who are the fans? Are the fans people who play/watch regularly? The ones who turn it on once in awhile? The Super Bowl for example had 111 million people watch during the Pats/Giants game but no one is saying that there are 111 million football fans. The picture at Haeundae is incredibly awesome and I know lots of people here were moved by it, but at the same time, stuff like that happens at Haeundae all the time (events), and while no, there's not regularly that many people there watching, I can guarantee that not everyone there is a fan and people who are watching are just people who happen to be at the beach at night. Which is a stupid amount of people in Korea. Secondly, people here are arguing for the depth of BW vs SC2 and that BW is more deep and whatever. I doubt really that many people knew the tricks of BW compared to what people here think. Just like in every game, there are people who are super interested and know the tricks inside out, but there's just as many people who play the game just to play it without knowing the magic of the reaver. Things like JD's muta micro is impressive to see and hard to pull off, but JD did a similar muta micro earlier in the year in SC2 against infestors that was just as impressive to see. I don't see anyone talking about that. That's not even to say that SC2 is deeper or better than BW, but that people are putting such a large emphesis on why SC2 is a "worse" game than BW. It's not, it's absolutely different. There are a lot of things that SC2 can learn from BW that would make it better but it's not a bad game like everyone is claiming. Finally people who use the fact that BW is so popular in Korea, and that SC2 killed it off or whatever and use the amount of fans of BW vs SC2 as proof is fundamentally flawed. What other competition was there for BW? Sudden Attack? Crazy Arcade? Seriously, there was nothing. Even if SC2 was never released, or hell, if SC2 was BW v2, it wouldn't have beaten LoL. I don't think people understand how not popular 1v1 games are. EVERYONE at PC Bang's plays multiplayer, I have never seen anyone in the last 3-4 years even attempt to play a 1v1 BW/SC2 game. And frankly it's just sad to see people call LoL a no skill boring etc etc game cause it's absolutely dominating. It would have dominated BW no question. To have people make these comparisons like they were 1:1 is just maddening and it helps nothing. We get it, BW fans hate SC2 fans. They hope SC2 dies or changes to be like BW. They want their heroes like Bisu to come back. But this scene is changing and has been changing regardless of BW. Come to Korea and this fact is as clear as day. To me, It's not about wanting SC2 to become BW nor BW going to come back again. Most BW fans know that it won't happen anymore. We also know that it wasn't just SC2 that killed BW. Kpop killed MBC Game, for example The thing is, many SC2 fans thinks SC2 is going to become famous internationally like how BW was famous in Korea and BW fans know that will never happen. Show me post of that? I havent readed anybody said that SC2 will have much teamhouses, full offline teamleagues and leagues. Or what do you mean with "famous" exactly? Can you open up that little bit? Did you follow the Kespa vs Blizzard lawsuits? Blizzard themselves wants Kespa organizers to play SC2 instead of BW with their current teams. What part of 'famous' do you not understand? Sure SC2 is famous but is it accepted? In your original post you said famous. How you count it? Overall, I think SC2 is more famous than BW has ever been. More people have heard of sc2 and saw it than BW. But that's not direct answer what you said. Is SC2 accepted? Yes it is. Im not sure what you mean with this? It's not less accepted that any other game. Do you mean is e-sport accepted?
Have you seen girls stalking your favorite player when he went to a mall?
Have you seen your favorite player's parent pray for you when you were playing in a tournament?
Have you seen your favorite player on a advertisement that was sponsored by the country he is representing?
Have you seen your favorite team being sponsored by a huge company that is remotely related to gaming?
BW was accepted .. something SC2 will never truly become with how things are going on for it
|
On October 08 2013 23:43 drkcid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:30 saddaromma wrote:On October 08 2013 23:18 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:00 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 22:54 Kheve wrote:http://baseportal.de/baseportal.pl?htx=/MyTube/sctv/News_F2&db=Com_1&cid=334&uid=&sid=183966388624253118011888430722a 2007 news article on the rise of OGN rivaling free korean national broadcasters. That was how big it was. Ppl who have never been in korea who have never seen cybercafes in every corner of the block with 100-400 pcs all filled with ppl playing sc from kids to officeworkers who jes got off work and now gonna fight ea other to release stress will never comprehend how big sc was. Until the day when your companies marketing dept ask you whether its better to sponsor a traditional tournament/team or a game title, you have not seen esports. Company starcraft tournaments were also the norm. It was madness. Phenomenon as some call it. Comparing any other scene to BW back then (other than wat lol/dota is and might be) is sheer nonsense. Does any other gamer command salaries of 30k USD a month other than in BW? I high doubt it. Jaedong at his peak was commanding 300k pa. Michael Jordan he is not, but hey neither is any other gamer but BW pros come closest. Ofc the good times are past. Theres no longer millions of viewers. Everyone changed to lol. Samsung just bought a LOL team. All money goes to lol and here we are explaining why sc2 was the most brilliant thing blizzard ever did for 'esports' like they ever cared about anything but how much money they can make from the players of their game. In korea, its how much player can make from the game (and not a single cent came from the developer). This picture says it all .. lol/dota hasn't topped this yet .. this isn't about prize money, it's not even about the number of viewers .. it's about acceptance .. SC2 wasn't accepted .. it was forced .. This is at Haeundae right? Having been to Busan, I'm not sure how many of them were actual fans and how people here count fans in the first place. To answer a question that was posted above, I have absolutely no idea how many people during the hayday of BW in Korea were watching, however, having lived here for awhile and talking with a lot of people about BW/SC2, it was big, but I think people here are overestimating. First off, while BW was undoubtly popular (everyone knows what it is, and to an extent, some of the units/players), who are the fans? Are the fans people who play/watch regularly? The ones who turn it on once in awhile? The Super Bowl for example had 111 million people watch during the Pats/Giants game but no one is saying that there are 111 million football fans. The picture at Haeundae is incredibly awesome and I know lots of people here were moved by it, but at the same time, stuff like that happens at Haeundae all the time (events), and while no, there's not regularly that many people there watching, I can guarantee that not everyone there is a fan and people who are watching are just people who happen to be at the beach at night. Which is a stupid amount of people in Korea. Secondly, people here are arguing for the depth of BW vs SC2 and that BW is more deep and whatever. I doubt really that many people knew the tricks of BW compared to what people here think. Just like in every game, there are people who are super interested and know the tricks inside out, but there's just as many people who play the game just to play it without knowing the magic of the reaver. Things like JD's muta micro is impressive to see and hard to pull off, but JD did a similar muta micro earlier in the year in SC2 against infestors that was just as impressive to see. I don't see anyone talking about that. That's not even to say that SC2 is deeper or better than BW, but that people are putting such a large emphesis on why SC2 is a "worse" game than BW. It's not, it's absolutely different. There are a lot of things that SC2 can learn from BW that would make it better but it's not a bad game like everyone is claiming.
Finally people who use the fact that BW is so popular in Korea, and that SC2 killed it off or whatever and use the amount of fans of BW vs SC2 as proof is fundamentally flawed. What other competition was there for BW? Sudden Attack? Crazy Arcade? Seriously, there was nothing. Even if SC2 was never released, or hell, if SC2 was BW v2, it wouldn't have beaten LoL. I don't think people understand how not popular 1v1 games are. EVERYONE at PC Bang's plays multiplayer, I have never seen anyone in the last 3-4 years even attempt to play a 1v1 BW/SC2 game. And frankly it's just sad to see people call LoL a no skill boring etc etc game cause it's absolutely dominating. It would have dominated BW no question. To have people make these comparisons like they were 1:1 is just maddening and it helps nothing. We get it, BW fans hate SC2 fans. They hope SC2 dies or changes to be like BW. They want their heroes like Bisu to come back. But this scene is changing and has been changing regardless of BW. Come to Korea and this fact is as clear as day. What a bunch of nonsense, no one wants SC2 to die. @Chaggi: Best post in a while, specially the last paragraph. @saddaromma : BW fans want to go back to the past when BW was the best RTS of the moment. Its the "nostalgia" that we all have for some old game that was magical for us in the past, call it BW, warcraft 2, FF7 or counter strike. Sc2 its too precitable the 90% of the games, if you know the machup you can almost predict the BO for both players.
Last I heard the game was too unpredictable and DeMuslim kept dying to all-ins and it was unfair.
By the way, chess build orders are quite limited too (a few dozen openings only are used 90% of the time on GM level?) but still every game is different. It's not about build orders, but it's about decisions that the players make affecting the outcome of the game. If the build determines the outcome then the only decision is what build to pick. It's not like players even invent their own builds most of the time, so someone has already made various decisions for them. It imposes a very limited and frustrating framework on the players, where ostensibly they are playing a real time strategy game with tactics and micro and macro, but in essence it's more like rock paper scissors.
This isn't always true for Starcraft 2, but certainly for some match-ups it is really important to get out on top with your opening, and it's just quite boring for the game to end up that way.
|
On October 08 2013 23:57 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:37 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:33 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On October 08 2013 23:28 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:18 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:00 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 22:54 Kheve wrote:http://baseportal.de/baseportal.pl?htx=/MyTube/sctv/News_F2&db=Com_1&cid=334&uid=&sid=183966388624253118011888430722a 2007 news article on the rise of OGN rivaling free korean national broadcasters. That was how big it was. Ppl who have never been in korea who have never seen cybercafes in every corner of the block with 100-400 pcs all filled with ppl playing sc from kids to officeworkers who jes got off work and now gonna fight ea other to release stress will never comprehend how big sc was. Until the day when your companies marketing dept ask you whether its better to sponsor a traditional tournament/team or a game title, you have not seen esports. Company starcraft tournaments were also the norm. It was madness. Phenomenon as some call it. Comparing any other scene to BW back then (other than wat lol/dota is and might be) is sheer nonsense. Does any other gamer command salaries of 30k USD a month other than in BW? I high doubt it. Jaedong at his peak was commanding 300k pa. Michael Jordan he is not, but hey neither is any other gamer but BW pros come closest. Ofc the good times are past. Theres no longer millions of viewers. Everyone changed to lol. Samsung just bought a LOL team. All money goes to lol and here we are explaining why sc2 was the most brilliant thing blizzard ever did for 'esports' like they ever cared about anything but how much money they can make from the players of their game. In korea, its how much player can make from the game (and not a single cent came from the developer). This picture says it all .. lol/dota hasn't topped this yet .. this isn't about prize money, it's not even about the number of viewers .. it's about acceptance .. SC2 wasn't accepted .. it was forced .. This is at Haeundae right? Having been to Busan, I'm not sure how many of them were actual fans and how people here count fans in the first place. To answer a question that was posted above, I have absolutely no idea how many people during the hayday of BW in Korea were watching, however, having lived here for awhile and talking with a lot of people about BW/SC2, it was big, but I think people here are overestimating. First off, while BW was undoubtly popular (everyone knows what it is, and to an extent, some of the units/players), who are the fans? Are the fans people who play/watch regularly? The ones who turn it on once in awhile? The Super Bowl for example had 111 million people watch during the Pats/Giants game but no one is saying that there are 111 million football fans. The picture at Haeundae is incredibly awesome and I know lots of people here were moved by it, but at the same time, stuff like that happens at Haeundae all the time (events), and while no, there's not regularly that many people there watching, I can guarantee that not everyone there is a fan and people who are watching are just people who happen to be at the beach at night. Which is a stupid amount of people in Korea. Secondly, people here are arguing for the depth of BW vs SC2 and that BW is more deep and whatever. I doubt really that many people knew the tricks of BW compared to what people here think. Just like in every game, there are people who are super interested and know the tricks inside out, but there's just as many people who play the game just to play it without knowing the magic of the reaver. Things like JD's muta micro is impressive to see and hard to pull off, but JD did a similar muta micro earlier in the year in SC2 against infestors that was just as impressive to see. I don't see anyone talking about that. That's not even to say that SC2 is deeper or better than BW, but that people are putting such a large emphesis on why SC2 is a "worse" game than BW. It's not, it's absolutely different. There are a lot of things that SC2 can learn from BW that would make it better but it's not a bad game like everyone is claiming. Finally people who use the fact that BW is so popular in Korea, and that SC2 killed it off or whatever and use the amount of fans of BW vs SC2 as proof is fundamentally flawed. What other competition was there for BW? Sudden Attack? Crazy Arcade? Seriously, there was nothing. Even if SC2 was never released, or hell, if SC2 was BW v2, it wouldn't have beaten LoL. I don't think people understand how not popular 1v1 games are. EVERYONE at PC Bang's plays multiplayer, I have never seen anyone in the last 3-4 years even attempt to play a 1v1 BW/SC2 game. And frankly it's just sad to see people call LoL a no skill boring etc etc game cause it's absolutely dominating. It would have dominated BW no question. To have people make these comparisons like they were 1:1 is just maddening and it helps nothing. We get it, BW fans hate SC2 fans. They hope SC2 dies or changes to be like BW. They want their heroes like Bisu to come back. But this scene is changing and has been changing regardless of BW. Come to Korea and this fact is as clear as day. To me, It's not about wanting SC2 to become BW nor BW going to come back again. Most BW fans know that it won't happen anymore. We also know that it wasn't just SC2 that killed BW. Kpop killed MBC Game, for example The thing is, many SC2 fans thinks SC2 is going to become famous internationally like how BW was famous in Korea and BW fans know that will never happen. Show me post of that? I havent readed anybody said that SC2 will have much teamhouses, full offline teamleagues and leagues. Or what do you mean with "famous" exactly? Can you open up that little bit? Did you follow the Kespa vs Blizzard lawsuits? Blizzard themselves wants Kespa organizers to play SC2 instead of BW with their current teams. What part of 'famous' do you not understand? Sure SC2 is famous but is it accepted? In your original post you said famous. How you count it? Overall, I think SC2 is more famous than BW has ever been. More people have heard of sc2 and saw it than BW. But that's not direct answer what you said. Is SC2 accepted? Yes it is. Im not sure what you mean with this? It's not less accepted that any other game. Do you mean is e-sport accepted?
Well that's just plain wrong. Lots of my dad's friends (who are 45+) all know BW but don't even know that SC2 exists.
Youth these days all don't care about SC2.
Its only the 20 something's that know about the game but pretty much all of them know it's predecessor.
At my uni, there are about 20 or so players that played SC2 all respected me for playing SC1:BW because they all know how difficult that game is in comparing to SC2.
|
On October 09 2013 00:04 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Have you seen girls stalking your favorite player when he went to a mall?
Have you seen your favorite player's parent pray for you when you were playing in a tournament?
Have you seen your favorite player on a advertisement that was sponsored by the country he is representing?
[B[Have you seen your favorite team being sponsored by a huge company that is remotely related to gaming? [/B]
WELL SAID!!!! That is ESPORTS.
|
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 09 2013 00:02 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:47 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:47 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:46 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:44 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:40 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:38 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:35 Kheve wrote:
We understand MOBA have long overtaken RTS. That is evident even in BW days back in 5.84c dota when dota was as popular in SEA as BW was in korea. The point is, would BW with its history and existing infrastructure stand a better chance against MOBA? I would definitely say so.
Would a joint venture between Blizzard and Kespa right at the launch of SC2 stand a better chance than the 'HAHAHA SC2 gonna own and this time there is nothing Kespa can do legally unless they hack battlenet' revenge mentality of blizzard served SC2 as an esport better? I definitely think so. SC2 was made without a care for esport. Blizzard wanted to koreans to pay them profits for the 10 year+ real esport industry as if it were a game like wow where they make hundreds of millions a month from the player base. Blizzard was interested in SC2 as a 'game' that gives them players hard earned money.
Mark my words, one day when either lol/dota reach BW popularity and legitimacy (lol recognised by some US states and dota recognized by china or prefecture government i cant remember), the LAST thing valve or riot will ever do is introduce a sequel. One simply does not make tennis 2.0. You cannot make a sequel to MOBA game :.. Dota 2? Remake with better interface != sequel. Dude, dota 2 players aren't playing for the story. Right, 50+% are both playing and paying for the story in SC2's case however. I feel so bad for those people who are playing for the story... Yeah, i feel bad for them too. Thank god i am playing for the gameplay of campaign, it is like 100500 times more awesome than BW's campaign gameplay (story for BW is better in similar proportion however). I miss the huge, epic missions of the BW campaign, where you would creep across the map, methodically eliminating bases, expanding, and actually having to plan a bit/use patience. SC2 had some great single player maps and entertaining missions, but sitting on 1-2 bases with no injects and that stunted creep spread mechanic and spamming stupidly overpowered roaches got old. Fast. Blizzard, please give me enough credit to give me at least a few large, long missions that feel more like actual battles and less like Kerrigan just walking around and randomly killing shit for 15 mins on her own.
Tbh, i meant missions like last mission in WoL (seriously, it was funny seeing ultralisks dying like SC2 is according all da doomsayers; or controlling 100+ mutas <3). And yes, BW gameplay of campaign had me outright raging sometimes.
|
On October 09 2013 00:10 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 00:02 Squat wrote:On October 08 2013 23:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:47 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:47 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:46 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:44 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:40 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:38 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:35 Kheve wrote:
We understand MOBA have long overtaken RTS. That is evident even in BW days back in 5.84c dota when dota was as popular in SEA as BW was in korea. The point is, would BW with its history and existing infrastructure stand a better chance against MOBA? I would definitely say so.
Would a joint venture between Blizzard and Kespa right at the launch of SC2 stand a better chance than the 'HAHAHA SC2 gonna own and this time there is nothing Kespa can do legally unless they hack battlenet' revenge mentality of blizzard served SC2 as an esport better? I definitely think so. SC2 was made without a care for esport. Blizzard wanted to koreans to pay them profits for the 10 year+ real esport industry as if it were a game like wow where they make hundreds of millions a month from the player base. Blizzard was interested in SC2 as a 'game' that gives them players hard earned money.
Mark my words, one day when either lol/dota reach BW popularity and legitimacy (lol recognised by some US states and dota recognized by china or prefecture government i cant remember), the LAST thing valve or riot will ever do is introduce a sequel. One simply does not make tennis 2.0. You cannot make a sequel to MOBA game :.. Dota 2? Remake with better interface != sequel. Dude, dota 2 players aren't playing for the story. Right, 50+% are both playing and paying for the story in SC2's case however. I feel so bad for those people who are playing for the story... Yeah, i feel bad for them too. Thank god i am playing for the gameplay of campaign, it is like 100500 times more awesome than BW's campaign gameplay (story for BW is better in similar proportion however). I miss the huge, epic missions of the BW campaign, where you would creep across the map, methodically eliminating bases, expanding, and actually having to plan a bit/use patience. SC2 had some great single player maps and entertaining missions, but sitting on 1-2 bases with no injects and that stunted creep spread mechanic and spamming stupidly overpowered roaches got old. Fast. Blizzard, please give me enough credit to give me at least a few large, long missions that feel more like actual battles and less like Kerrigan just walking around and randomly killing shit for 15 mins on her own. Tbh, i meant missions like last mission in WoL (seriously, it was funny seeing ultralisks dying like SC2 is according all da doomsayers; or controlling 100+ mutas <3). And yes, BW gameplay of campaign had me outright raging sometimes.
I always liked BW single player, it was just hard enough to force you to learn how to play somewhat correctly, and punished tunnel vision rather harshly sometimes. I think that's good, generally. The retake Korhal mission and the one where you gather 10k minerals were awesome, so many ways to play them out and so well designed.
I really don't think making gameplay simplistic is the way to go in single player. Adjust difficulty through the options menu, and then just make sure that on the lower settings you can do pretty much whatever and still win, without compromising the complexity of the gameplay and maps.
Butchering the story and turning some of the best characters ever in any RTS into cheap, exaggerated tropes didn't help either. SC2 single player was like much of the game in general, a generally fun and entertaining experience, that could have been, should have been, just so much more.
|
On October 09 2013 00:05 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:43 drkcid wrote:On October 08 2013 23:30 saddaromma wrote:On October 08 2013 23:18 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:00 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 22:54 Kheve wrote:http://baseportal.de/baseportal.pl?htx=/MyTube/sctv/News_F2&db=Com_1&cid=334&uid=&sid=183966388624253118011888430722a 2007 news article on the rise of OGN rivaling free korean national broadcasters. That was how big it was. Ppl who have never been in korea who have never seen cybercafes in every corner of the block with 100-400 pcs all filled with ppl playing sc from kids to officeworkers who jes got off work and now gonna fight ea other to release stress will never comprehend how big sc was. Until the day when your companies marketing dept ask you whether its better to sponsor a traditional tournament/team or a game title, you have not seen esports. Company starcraft tournaments were also the norm. It was madness. Phenomenon as some call it. Comparing any other scene to BW back then (other than wat lol/dota is and might be) is sheer nonsense. Does any other gamer command salaries of 30k USD a month other than in BW? I high doubt it. Jaedong at his peak was commanding 300k pa. Michael Jordan he is not, but hey neither is any other gamer but BW pros come closest. Ofc the good times are past. Theres no longer millions of viewers. Everyone changed to lol. Samsung just bought a LOL team. All money goes to lol and here we are explaining why sc2 was the most brilliant thing blizzard ever did for 'esports' like they ever cared about anything but how much money they can make from the players of their game. In korea, its how much player can make from the game (and not a single cent came from the developer). This picture says it all .. lol/dota hasn't topped this yet .. this isn't about prize money, it's not even about the number of viewers .. it's about acceptance .. SC2 wasn't accepted .. it was forced .. This is at Haeundae right? Having been to Busan, I'm not sure how many of them were actual fans and how people here count fans in the first place. To answer a question that was posted above, I have absolutely no idea how many people during the hayday of BW in Korea were watching, however, having lived here for awhile and talking with a lot of people about BW/SC2, it was big, but I think people here are overestimating. First off, while BW was undoubtly popular (everyone knows what it is, and to an extent, some of the units/players), who are the fans? Are the fans people who play/watch regularly? The ones who turn it on once in awhile? The Super Bowl for example had 111 million people watch during the Pats/Giants game but no one is saying that there are 111 million football fans. The picture at Haeundae is incredibly awesome and I know lots of people here were moved by it, but at the same time, stuff like that happens at Haeundae all the time (events), and while no, there's not regularly that many people there watching, I can guarantee that not everyone there is a fan and people who are watching are just people who happen to be at the beach at night. Which is a stupid amount of people in Korea. Secondly, people here are arguing for the depth of BW vs SC2 and that BW is more deep and whatever. I doubt really that many people knew the tricks of BW compared to what people here think. Just like in every game, there are people who are super interested and know the tricks inside out, but there's just as many people who play the game just to play it without knowing the magic of the reaver. Things like JD's muta micro is impressive to see and hard to pull off, but JD did a similar muta micro earlier in the year in SC2 against infestors that was just as impressive to see. I don't see anyone talking about that. That's not even to say that SC2 is deeper or better than BW, but that people are putting such a large emphesis on why SC2 is a "worse" game than BW. It's not, it's absolutely different. There are a lot of things that SC2 can learn from BW that would make it better but it's not a bad game like everyone is claiming.
Finally people who use the fact that BW is so popular in Korea, and that SC2 killed it off or whatever and use the amount of fans of BW vs SC2 as proof is fundamentally flawed. What other competition was there for BW? Sudden Attack? Crazy Arcade? Seriously, there was nothing. Even if SC2 was never released, or hell, if SC2 was BW v2, it wouldn't have beaten LoL. I don't think people understand how not popular 1v1 games are. EVERYONE at PC Bang's plays multiplayer, I have never seen anyone in the last 3-4 years even attempt to play a 1v1 BW/SC2 game. And frankly it's just sad to see people call LoL a no skill boring etc etc game cause it's absolutely dominating. It would have dominated BW no question. To have people make these comparisons like they were 1:1 is just maddening and it helps nothing. We get it, BW fans hate SC2 fans. They hope SC2 dies or changes to be like BW. They want their heroes like Bisu to come back. But this scene is changing and has been changing regardless of BW. Come to Korea and this fact is as clear as day. What a bunch of nonsense, no one wants SC2 to die. @Chaggi: Best post in a while, specially the last paragraph. @saddaromma : BW fans want to go back to the past when BW was the best RTS of the moment. Its the "nostalgia" that we all have for some old game that was magical for us in the past, call it BW, warcraft 2, FF7 or counter strike. Sc2 its too precitable the 90% of the games, if you know the machup you can almost predict the BO for both players. Last I heard the game was too unpredictable and DeMuslim kept dying to all-ins and it was unfair. By the way, chess build orders are quite limited too (a few dozen openings only are used 90% of the time on GM level?) but still every game is different. It's not about build orders, but it's about decisions that the players make affecting the outcome of the game. If the build determines the outcome then the only decision is what build to pick. It's not like players even invent their own builds most of the time, so someone has already made various decisions for them. It imposes a very limited and frustrating framework on the players, where ostensibly they are playing a real time strategy game with tactics and micro and macro, but in essence it's more like rock paper scissors. This isn't always true for Starcraft 2, but certainly for some match-ups it is really important to get out on top with your opening, and it's just quite boring for the game to end up that way.
I'm a HUGE DeMuslim fan but what he's saying is just flat out whining. He's one of the greediest players in the scene and he gets punished for it, blindly by even his teammates. He can't hold the all in's because that's just how he plays. If you watch some of the highest level, like Soulkey, Innovation/Bogus, Rain, they very rarely die because some type of cheese (both aggressive and economic) because they play in a way that can exploit their opponent. Builds do make a big difference but it should be a calculated risk, and for him, he's doing a calculated risk of opening with huge greed and the opponent is doing a calculated risk of blindly countering cause that's what he always does.
|
On October 09 2013 00:04 shaftofpleasure wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:57 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On October 08 2013 23:37 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:33 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On October 08 2013 23:28 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:18 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:00 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 22:54 Kheve wrote:http://baseportal.de/baseportal.pl?htx=/MyTube/sctv/News_F2&db=Com_1&cid=334&uid=&sid=183966388624253118011888430722a 2007 news article on the rise of OGN rivaling free korean national broadcasters. That was how big it was. Ppl who have never been in korea who have never seen cybercafes in every corner of the block with 100-400 pcs all filled with ppl playing sc from kids to officeworkers who jes got off work and now gonna fight ea other to release stress will never comprehend how big sc was. Until the day when your companies marketing dept ask you whether its better to sponsor a traditional tournament/team or a game title, you have not seen esports. Company starcraft tournaments were also the norm. It was madness. Phenomenon as some call it. Comparing any other scene to BW back then (other than wat lol/dota is and might be) is sheer nonsense. Does any other gamer command salaries of 30k USD a month other than in BW? I high doubt it. Jaedong at his peak was commanding 300k pa. Michael Jordan he is not, but hey neither is any other gamer but BW pros come closest. Ofc the good times are past. Theres no longer millions of viewers. Everyone changed to lol. Samsung just bought a LOL team. All money goes to lol and here we are explaining why sc2 was the most brilliant thing blizzard ever did for 'esports' like they ever cared about anything but how much money they can make from the players of their game. In korea, its how much player can make from the game (and not a single cent came from the developer). This picture says it all .. lol/dota hasn't topped this yet .. this isn't about prize money, it's not even about the number of viewers .. it's about acceptance .. SC2 wasn't accepted .. it was forced .. This is at Haeundae right? Having been to Busan, I'm not sure how many of them were actual fans and how people here count fans in the first place. To answer a question that was posted above, I have absolutely no idea how many people during the hayday of BW in Korea were watching, however, having lived here for awhile and talking with a lot of people about BW/SC2, it was big, but I think people here are overestimating. First off, while BW was undoubtly popular (everyone knows what it is, and to an extent, some of the units/players), who are the fans? Are the fans people who play/watch regularly? The ones who turn it on once in awhile? The Super Bowl for example had 111 million people watch during the Pats/Giants game but no one is saying that there are 111 million football fans. The picture at Haeundae is incredibly awesome and I know lots of people here were moved by it, but at the same time, stuff like that happens at Haeundae all the time (events), and while no, there's not regularly that many people there watching, I can guarantee that not everyone there is a fan and people who are watching are just people who happen to be at the beach at night. Which is a stupid amount of people in Korea. Secondly, people here are arguing for the depth of BW vs SC2 and that BW is more deep and whatever. I doubt really that many people knew the tricks of BW compared to what people here think. Just like in every game, there are people who are super interested and know the tricks inside out, but there's just as many people who play the game just to play it without knowing the magic of the reaver. Things like JD's muta micro is impressive to see and hard to pull off, but JD did a similar muta micro earlier in the year in SC2 against infestors that was just as impressive to see. I don't see anyone talking about that. That's not even to say that SC2 is deeper or better than BW, but that people are putting such a large emphesis on why SC2 is a "worse" game than BW. It's not, it's absolutely different. There are a lot of things that SC2 can learn from BW that would make it better but it's not a bad game like everyone is claiming. Finally people who use the fact that BW is so popular in Korea, and that SC2 killed it off or whatever and use the amount of fans of BW vs SC2 as proof is fundamentally flawed. What other competition was there for BW? Sudden Attack? Crazy Arcade? Seriously, there was nothing. Even if SC2 was never released, or hell, if SC2 was BW v2, it wouldn't have beaten LoL. I don't think people understand how not popular 1v1 games are. EVERYONE at PC Bang's plays multiplayer, I have never seen anyone in the last 3-4 years even attempt to play a 1v1 BW/SC2 game. And frankly it's just sad to see people call LoL a no skill boring etc etc game cause it's absolutely dominating. It would have dominated BW no question. To have people make these comparisons like they were 1:1 is just maddening and it helps nothing. We get it, BW fans hate SC2 fans. They hope SC2 dies or changes to be like BW. They want their heroes like Bisu to come back. But this scene is changing and has been changing regardless of BW. Come to Korea and this fact is as clear as day. To me, It's not about wanting SC2 to become BW nor BW going to come back again. Most BW fans know that it won't happen anymore. We also know that it wasn't just SC2 that killed BW. Kpop killed MBC Game, for example The thing is, many SC2 fans thinks SC2 is going to become famous internationally like how BW was famous in Korea and BW fans know that will never happen. Show me post of that? I havent readed anybody said that SC2 will have much teamhouses, full offline teamleagues and leagues. Or what do you mean with "famous" exactly? Can you open up that little bit? Did you follow the Kespa vs Blizzard lawsuits? Blizzard themselves wants Kespa organizers to play SC2 instead of BW with their current teams. What part of 'famous' do you not understand? Sure SC2 is famous but is it accepted? In your original post you said famous. How you count it? Overall, I think SC2 is more famous than BW has ever been. More people have heard of sc2 and saw it than BW. But that's not direct answer what you said. Is SC2 accepted? Yes it is. Im not sure what you mean with this? It's not less accepted that any other game. Do you mean is e-sport accepted? Have you seen girls stalking your favorite player when he went to a mall? Have you seen your favorite player's parent pray for you when you were playing in a tournament? Have you seen your favorite player on a advertisement that was sponsored by the country he is representing? Have you seen your favorite team being sponsored by a huge company that is remotely related to gaming? BW was accepted .. something SC2 will never truly become with how things are going on for it
Fangirls stalking players is nothing special. They stalk everyone famous. They're called Sasaeng fans for a reason. Even they have their own Wikipedia page. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasaeng_fan). If you look at KeSPA vs eSF, you can't make that comparison because of how the teams are marketed. eSF teams were more focused on trying to get any sponsors at all. KeSPA teams already had the money, thus the fan clubs, thus the ability to have these fan events. Hell, I still have some stuff from the OSL Finals when it was Rain vs Maru and Soulkey vs Innovation and even among KeSPA teams, the amount of support from fans is completely different.
Not sure what the second point is, but probably? People pray all the time for stuff
The last two are related to how accepted BW was, but you're looking at it in a vaccum. What was competing with BW? Nothing at all. It came with the rise of the PC Bang's and had virtually no competition. It doesn't make any sense to put these two games side by side and compare them like this.
|
On October 09 2013 00:08 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2013 23:57 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On October 08 2013 23:37 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:33 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On October 08 2013 23:28 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:18 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:00 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 22:54 Kheve wrote:http://baseportal.de/baseportal.pl?htx=/MyTube/sctv/News_F2&db=Com_1&cid=334&uid=&sid=183966388624253118011888430722a 2007 news article on the rise of OGN rivaling free korean national broadcasters. That was how big it was. Ppl who have never been in korea who have never seen cybercafes in every corner of the block with 100-400 pcs all filled with ppl playing sc from kids to officeworkers who jes got off work and now gonna fight ea other to release stress will never comprehend how big sc was. Until the day when your companies marketing dept ask you whether its better to sponsor a traditional tournament/team or a game title, you have not seen esports. Company starcraft tournaments were also the norm. It was madness. Phenomenon as some call it. Comparing any other scene to BW back then (other than wat lol/dota is and might be) is sheer nonsense. Does any other gamer command salaries of 30k USD a month other than in BW? I high doubt it. Jaedong at his peak was commanding 300k pa. Michael Jordan he is not, but hey neither is any other gamer but BW pros come closest. Ofc the good times are past. Theres no longer millions of viewers. Everyone changed to lol. Samsung just bought a LOL team. All money goes to lol and here we are explaining why sc2 was the most brilliant thing blizzard ever did for 'esports' like they ever cared about anything but how much money they can make from the players of their game. In korea, its how much player can make from the game (and not a single cent came from the developer). This picture says it all .. lol/dota hasn't topped this yet .. this isn't about prize money, it's not even about the number of viewers .. it's about acceptance .. SC2 wasn't accepted .. it was forced .. This is at Haeundae right? Having been to Busan, I'm not sure how many of them were actual fans and how people here count fans in the first place. To answer a question that was posted above, I have absolutely no idea how many people during the hayday of BW in Korea were watching, however, having lived here for awhile and talking with a lot of people about BW/SC2, it was big, but I think people here are overestimating. First off, while BW was undoubtly popular (everyone knows what it is, and to an extent, some of the units/players), who are the fans? Are the fans people who play/watch regularly? The ones who turn it on once in awhile? The Super Bowl for example had 111 million people watch during the Pats/Giants game but no one is saying that there are 111 million football fans. The picture at Haeundae is incredibly awesome and I know lots of people here were moved by it, but at the same time, stuff like that happens at Haeundae all the time (events), and while no, there's not regularly that many people there watching, I can guarantee that not everyone there is a fan and people who are watching are just people who happen to be at the beach at night. Which is a stupid amount of people in Korea. Secondly, people here are arguing for the depth of BW vs SC2 and that BW is more deep and whatever. I doubt really that many people knew the tricks of BW compared to what people here think. Just like in every game, there are people who are super interested and know the tricks inside out, but there's just as many people who play the game just to play it without knowing the magic of the reaver. Things like JD's muta micro is impressive to see and hard to pull off, but JD did a similar muta micro earlier in the year in SC2 against infestors that was just as impressive to see. I don't see anyone talking about that. That's not even to say that SC2 is deeper or better than BW, but that people are putting such a large emphesis on why SC2 is a "worse" game than BW. It's not, it's absolutely different. There are a lot of things that SC2 can learn from BW that would make it better but it's not a bad game like everyone is claiming. Finally people who use the fact that BW is so popular in Korea, and that SC2 killed it off or whatever and use the amount of fans of BW vs SC2 as proof is fundamentally flawed. What other competition was there for BW? Sudden Attack? Crazy Arcade? Seriously, there was nothing. Even if SC2 was never released, or hell, if SC2 was BW v2, it wouldn't have beaten LoL. I don't think people understand how not popular 1v1 games are. EVERYONE at PC Bang's plays multiplayer, I have never seen anyone in the last 3-4 years even attempt to play a 1v1 BW/SC2 game. And frankly it's just sad to see people call LoL a no skill boring etc etc game cause it's absolutely dominating. It would have dominated BW no question. To have people make these comparisons like they were 1:1 is just maddening and it helps nothing. We get it, BW fans hate SC2 fans. They hope SC2 dies or changes to be like BW. They want their heroes like Bisu to come back. But this scene is changing and has been changing regardless of BW. Come to Korea and this fact is as clear as day. To me, It's not about wanting SC2 to become BW nor BW going to come back again. Most BW fans know that it won't happen anymore. We also know that it wasn't just SC2 that killed BW. Kpop killed MBC Game, for example The thing is, many SC2 fans thinks SC2 is going to become famous internationally like how BW was famous in Korea and BW fans know that will never happen. Show me post of that? I havent readed anybody said that SC2 will have much teamhouses, full offline teamleagues and leagues. Or what do you mean with "famous" exactly? Can you open up that little bit? Did you follow the Kespa vs Blizzard lawsuits? Blizzard themselves wants Kespa organizers to play SC2 instead of BW with their current teams. What part of 'famous' do you not understand? Sure SC2 is famous but is it accepted? In your original post you said famous. How you count it? Overall, I think SC2 is more famous than BW has ever been. More people have heard of sc2 and saw it than BW. But that's not direct answer what you said. Is SC2 accepted? Yes it is. Im not sure what you mean with this? It's not less accepted that any other game. Do you mean is e-sport accepted? Well that's just plain wrong. Lots of my dad's friends (who are 45+) all know BW but don't even know that SC2 exists. Youth these days all don't care about SC2. Its only the 20 something's that know about the game but pretty much all of them know it's predecessor. At my uni, there are about 20 or so players that played SC2 all respected me for playing SC1:BW because they all know how difficult that game is in comparing to SC2.
45+ know of BW, so when the game first came out... they were around 30 years old... which is still around the time when they were into computer games vs 45+... not into computer games. I mean, come on. What kind of example is that?
|
Butchering the story and turning some of the best characters ever in any RTS into cheap, exaggerated tropes didn't help either. SC2 single player was like much of the game in general, a generally fun and entertaining experience, that could have been, should have been, just so much more.
You pretty much described every Blizzard game in last 5 years. Sorry, fellas. The Blizzard that made Brood Wars no longer exists. The new Blizzard is incapable of making a good game.
|
On October 09 2013 01:25 ReMinD_ wrote:Show nested quote +Butchering the story and turning some of the best characters ever in any RTS into cheap, exaggerated tropes didn't help either. SC2 single player was like much of the game in general, a generally fun and entertaining experience, that could have been, should have been, just so much more. You pretty much described every Blizzard game in last 5 years. Sorry, fellas. The Blizzard that made Brood Wars no longer exists. The new Blizzard is incapable of making a good game.
I'd say good story*. They still make pretty good games, just not the same kind as we expect from way back when.
|
On October 09 2013 01:29 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 01:25 ReMinD_ wrote:Butchering the story and turning some of the best characters ever in any RTS into cheap, exaggerated tropes didn't help either. SC2 single player was like much of the game in general, a generally fun and entertaining experience, that could have been, should have been, just so much more. You pretty much described every Blizzard game in last 5 years. Sorry, fellas. The Blizzard that made Brood Wars no longer exists. The new Blizzard is incapable of making a good game. I'd say good story*. They still make pretty good games, just not the same kind as we expect from way back when.
Sure, had D3 and SC2 been released by smaller, more unknown developers with none of the legacy of their massive forebears, they would likely have been hailed as great games.
I've said this before when people claim SC2 and D3 suck, it's not that the games are bad, it's that they just don't measure up to the giants on whose shoulders they stand. Maybe it's that the new developers just can't recreate the magic, maybe it's business decisions from above, but something is off.
|
On October 09 2013 01:35 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 01:29 Chaggi wrote:On October 09 2013 01:25 ReMinD_ wrote:Butchering the story and turning some of the best characters ever in any RTS into cheap, exaggerated tropes didn't help either. SC2 single player was like much of the game in general, a generally fun and entertaining experience, that could have been, should have been, just so much more. You pretty much described every Blizzard game in last 5 years. Sorry, fellas. The Blizzard that made Brood Wars no longer exists. The new Blizzard is incapable of making a good game. I'd say good story*. They still make pretty good games, just not the same kind as we expect from way back when. Sure, had D3 and SC2 been released by smaller, more unknown developers with none of the legacy of their massive forebears, they would likely have been hailed as great games. I've said this before when people claim SC2 and D3 suck, it's not that the games are bad, it's that they just don't measure up to the giants on whose shoulders they stand. Maybe it's that the new developers just can't recreate the magic, maybe it's business decisions from above, but something is off.
I personally think it's partially the type of gaming world we live in. I remember picking up World of Warcraft like the month it came out and just exploring it with my friends. Fundamentally, it's a much better game now. 1-60 is a lot smoother, there's more to do, etc etc but there's some beauty of going to Arathi Highlands and exploring, or doing some type of World PvP when you shouldn't be. I think a big part of Brood War, at least for me, was going and just playing with friends no matter how bad I was. Hell, I didn't even know how bad I was until I got stomped by a random person on Battle.Net, but even then I barely played anyone outside my group of friends until college when I got promptly stomped by a D+ Zerg player. I'm sure everyone that played has started with those comp stomp games, the BGH's, the mass carriers, and then transitioned into something more competitive. With SC2, it felt competitive from the start - very little experimenting cause it was all figured out already. That's why some of the greatest moments in SC2 was when I first saw MKP split marines vs banelings and I thought DAMN, this was new and unexplored.
|
On October 09 2013 00:21 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 00:10 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 09 2013 00:02 Squat wrote:On October 08 2013 23:50 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:47 Chaggi wrote:On October 08 2013 23:47 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:46 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:44 lolfail9001 wrote:On October 08 2013 23:40 shaftofpleasure wrote:On October 08 2013 23:38 lolfail9001 wrote:
[quote]
You cannot make a sequel to MOBA game :.. Dota 2? Remake with better interface != sequel. Dude, dota 2 players aren't playing for the story. Right, 50+% are both playing and paying for the story in SC2's case however. I feel so bad for those people who are playing for the story... Yeah, i feel bad for them too. Thank god i am playing for the gameplay of campaign, it is like 100500 times more awesome than BW's campaign gameplay (story for BW is better in similar proportion however). I miss the huge, epic missions of the BW campaign, where you would creep across the map, methodically eliminating bases, expanding, and actually having to plan a bit/use patience. SC2 had some great single player maps and entertaining missions, but sitting on 1-2 bases with no injects and that stunted creep spread mechanic and spamming stupidly overpowered roaches got old. Fast. Blizzard, please give me enough credit to give me at least a few large, long missions that feel more like actual battles and less like Kerrigan just walking around and randomly killing shit for 15 mins on her own. Tbh, i meant missions like last mission in WoL (seriously, it was funny seeing ultralisks dying like SC2 is according all da doomsayers; or controlling 100+ mutas <3). And yes, BW gameplay of campaign had me outright raging sometimes. I always liked BW single player, it was just hard enough to force you to learn how to play somewhat correctly, and punished tunnel vision rather harshly sometimes. I think that's good, generally. The retake Korhal mission and the one where you gather 10k minerals were awesome, so many ways to play them out and so well designed. I really don't think making gameplay simplistic is the way to go in single player. Adjust difficulty through the options menu, and then just make sure that on the lower settings you can do pretty much whatever and still win, without compromising the complexity of the gameplay and maps. Butchering the story and turning some of the best characters ever in any RTS into cheap, exaggerated tropes didn't help either. SC2 single player was like much of the game in general, a generally fun and entertaining experience, that could have been, should have been, just so much more.
SC1 singleplayer, WC2 singleplayer, and in good part WC3 singleplayer were focused on building a world. SC2 campaign is more about Hollywood moneyshot cutscenes and personal drama. I mean, when HotS' mission statement is to answer "Who is Sarah Kerrigan", you know something's changed. A lot.
There's also no denying that Blizzard, as a company, has changed. Old Blizzard was a product-oriented company. Make a game, build a world, polish the singleplayer experience, publish. Done. It was one shot. You can't do WoW with a product-oriented organization. You need to be churning out new content constantly and have a much more active role with the players. You need a service organization. The new method of creating content, too, has it's impacts.
Azeroth has pretty much been butchered to shoe in more and more WoW quests regardless of those quests (or the initial setup of the game, even) making any damn sense. I don't think it can sustain another game, the setting is so far gone already.
And then there's WoW art style creeping into SC and Diablo, eroding the individual character of those settings. It's gone, folks. Service Blizzard is a whole different animal, and it's best to accept that.
|
Northern Ireland25771 Posts
Hm, I wouldn't be quite as critical as you Zombie, but for the most part I have to agree.
Tbh, videogame narratives appear to now be as cliche-ridden and horrible as some of the worst that Hollywood has to offer, in an attempt to be 'emotive' or whatever. I always felt the BW story (and WC3 as well) were a lot better done because there wasn't quite as much cheesy romantic subplotting going around.
Also, PROPHECY STORY ARCS SUCK BALLS. God.
What's going on in Azeroth these days? I kind of just count the end of TFT as the end of current canon as far as I'm concerned, couldn't keep up with it lol.
|
On October 09 2013 03:22 Wombat_NI wrote:
Hm, I wouldn't be quite as critical as you Zombie, but for the most part I have to agree.
Tbh, videogame narratives appear to now be as cliche-ridden and horrible as some of the worst that Hollywood has to offer, in an attempt to be 'emotive' or whatever. I always felt the BW story (and WC3 as well) were a lot better done because there wasn't quite as much cheesy romantic subplotting going around.
Also, PROPHECY STORY ARCS SUCK BALLS. God.
What's going on in Azeroth these days? I kind of just count the end of TFT as the end of current canon as far as I'm concerned, couldn't keep up with it lol.
Just played through vampire bloodlines as Malkavian, it was fucking awesome. The dialogue, the characters, the humour...games just aren't made like that anymore.
I don't think even Blizzard knows what's going on in Azeroth anymore. It's...the word I'm looking for is clusterfuck I believe.
Also change your sig.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
