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On October 09 2013 16:32 RoboBob wrote:
I agree with most of those points, however I disagree about the gameplay difference between BW and SC2. Yes BW is the more difficult game. However it was more difficult mostly because of the stupid pathing and mechanical limitations like unit selection. If I'm a completely casual spectator I don't appreciate "oh he can only select 12 units at a time" or "oh high ground units get a 30% dodge chance vs low ground units". I appreciate smart decision making, flashy graphics, and cute micro. And I would argue that SC2 excels over BW in all three of those aspects.
.
The thing is, the casual spectator who enjoyed watching BW (and there a fuck ton of them in south korea) didn't simplistically enjoy the 'stupid pathing' or 'mechanical limitations.'
The battles were longer in BW, you could actually enjoy the spectacle of dragoons shooting at tanks without 5 minutes of posturing that ends in 10 seconds.
The sounds and graphics, while super out-dated compared to modern RTS games, were vibrant and easily identifiable. I much prefer watching dragoon dying animations in BW to a blob of marines in SC2. It's just more enjoyable to watch.
Finally, the difficulty of BW, whilst not enjoyable in itself -> differentiated the best players from the good in an OBVIOUS way. Of course SC2 is a very hard game with a skill ceiling that no human will ever reach. But the way BW worked meant, that you could CLEARLY tell that Bisu's micro was top notch whenever a battle was fought. You could CLEARLY tell Flash's macro was beastly in comparison to other players at the time. Skill was more self-evident in BW than in SC2, even if the games are comparably similar in difficulty.
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On October 09 2013 16:52 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 16:32 RoboBob wrote:
Unfortunately nowadays I find myself watching LoL much more than SC2. Because even though SC2 has superior gameplay, Riot does such a better job with all the other non-gameplay related stuff mentioned in the OP. part of a reason why many people watch LoL is because its hyped as hell.
First of all: FUCK MY LIFE. I typed a huge post explaining in detail my thoughts on the matter and I somehow exited my web browser, effectively losing my post.
That out of the way..
People will watch a game they play. Look at LoL and how flourishing their scene is. This is because there's a monstrous amount of people playing the game casually. More people playing translates to more people watching the pro scene. Why do people play LoL? It's easy to get into and it's really fun. People will watch the pro scene because they're interested in seeing how the game is played at the highest level. Since people also play themselves, it's much easier for them to appreciate high level play. All this equates to a very solid foundation for a pro scene.
Look at Brood War. Almost every single BW veteran on these boards talk about how fun the game was. Yeah Brood War was mechanically very difficult, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't a very fun game to play. Look at PC bangs in Korea. Brood War is still played a lot. That's because the game is damn fun and people still play it for fun.
The idea is that any person who is playing a game for fun will watch the pro scene for that game.
Look at SC2. The game isn't fun to play. The only fun you can have in SC2 is winning the game (mostly, you win when you mechanically out-performed your opponent, or you pulled out a bullshit strat that your opponent wasn't prepared for). Let's face it. Actually playing the game isn't that enjoyable, at least for most people. This equates to less people playing (because people don't have the patience to grind mechanics and/or prepare for every bullshit strat). This equates to less viewers.
I myself will only watch a game I'm currently playing. I will watch a player's stream if I can learn something for it. That's why I watched Idra, Destiny and Snute (when he streamed). That's why I supported those players when they played in tournaments and watched those tournaments. I stayed up to watch any MLG Idra was in when he was still playing because I watched his stream and learned from his stream.
Why is the game not fun? Poor game design..
Edit: I mean think about it. Where is the fun in winning a game with an Oracle that auto-kills an entire base worth of workers? Where is the fun in winning a game with a Baneling bust? See what I mean? Now ask yourself where is the fun in LOSING to such bullshit.
Yeah, the game might be balanced for competitive play but it's so unfriendly to the casual player, the more I think about it the more I wonder how SC2 actually got as far as it did.
You'll notice that Blizzard quickly took a step back and made a cute little game called Hearthstone which is about fun gameplay and it's also pretty relaxing, without being an easy game without depth. Hearthstone will be played for a longer time than SC2.
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On October 09 2013 17:54 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 17:12 USvBleakill wrote:On October 09 2013 12:42 SpeghettiJoe wrote:
Ok I'm going to unveil the real reason why SC2 is not as popular:
THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH BOOBIES
There's no female hero in sc2 - in LoL there are tons of powerful and beautiful female characters. Yes medivacs I know, but that's just a voice. In SC2, it's truly a sausage fest. And since 99% of gamers are guys, they can only stand sausage fests for so long.
Thats it. After over 60 pages we found it. The ultimate solution. So we should make a list: - more Boobs on the maps - more Boobs on the Bnet (Kerrigan on the start screen is a nice start, expect a strip show with Nova and her) - more Ass on the winning screen (bitches always go to the winners!) - the Ghost should be female, the dying scream is already pretty close to what my southern body part wants or how about Anime skins for our friends from the east: wuhuu Moe-craft with Tea and girls or imagine a new buyable "skin" for the spinecrawler. With new Balance patch "new Spine crawler upgrade *Tentacle Rape*. No explanation needed " to be completely honest, I would pay a lot if they would reskin everything into carbot character skin, that would be so awesome
I dont get why Blizzard isn´t open to that, making the game client more open that everyone can mod with skins and make an option that the opponent can deactivate it doesn´t sound that hard.
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On October 09 2013 18:25 USvBleakill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 17:54 ETisME wrote:On October 09 2013 17:12 USvBleakill wrote:On October 09 2013 12:42 SpeghettiJoe wrote:
Ok I'm going to unveil the real reason why SC2 is not as popular:
THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH BOOBIES
There's no female hero in sc2 - in LoL there are tons of powerful and beautiful female characters. Yes medivacs I know, but that's just a voice. In SC2, it's truly a sausage fest. And since 99% of gamers are guys, they can only stand sausage fests for so long.
Thats it. After over 60 pages we found it. The ultimate solution. So we should make a list: - more Boobs on the maps - more Boobs on the Bnet (Kerrigan on the start screen is a nice start, expect a strip show with Nova and her) - more Ass on the winning screen (bitches always go to the winners!) - the Ghost should be female, the dying scream is already pretty close to what my southern body part wants or how about Anime skins for our friends from the east: wuhuu Moe-craft with Tea and girls or imagine a new buyable "skin" for the spinecrawler. With new Balance patch "new Spine crawler upgrade *Tentacle Rape*. No explanation needed " to be completely honest, I would pay a lot if they would reskin everything into carbot character skin, that would be so awesome I dont get why Blizzard isn´t open to that, making the game client more open that everyone can mod with skins and make an option that the opponent can deactivate it doesn´t sound that hard.
I think they dont have the resources for this and it's really not a high priority topic.
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island map. omfg im so pissed they messed that up. watching boxer vs yellow on must upgrade drop map to expand or lift CC.sigh same old boring maps over and over again in sc2. they really messed up the drop plays that made BW awesome. how often do you see overlord drops in SC2? stupid medivac and warpgate= death of sc
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island map. omfg im so pissed they messed that up. watching boxer vs yellow on must upgrade drop map to expand or lift CC.sigh same old boring maps over and over again in sc2. they really messed up the drop plays that made BW awesome. how often do you see overlord drops in SC2? stupid medivac and warpgate= death of sc
ye i agree to that. Island maps now would be like insta triple cc into muleplay, dont know how to balance that on an island map without changing to much overall
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On October 09 2013 18:24 PerSe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 16:32 RoboBob wrote:
I agree with most of those points, however I disagree about the gameplay difference between BW and SC2. Yes BW is the more difficult game. However it was more difficult mostly because of the stupid pathing and mechanical limitations like unit selection. If I'm a completely casual spectator I don't appreciate "oh he can only select 12 units at a time" or "oh high ground units get a 30% dodge chance vs low ground units". I appreciate smart decision making, flashy graphics, and cute micro. And I would argue that SC2 excels over BW in all three of those aspects.
. The thing is, the casual spectator who enjoyed watching BW (and there a fuck ton of them in south korea) didn't simplistically enjoy the 'stupid pathing' or 'mechanical limitations.' The battles were longer in BW, you could actually enjoy the spectacle of dragoons shooting at tanks without 5 minutes of posturing that ends in 10 seconds. The sounds and graphics, while super out-dated compared to modern RTS games, were vibrant and easily identifiable. I much prefer watching dragoon dying animations in BW to a blob of marines in SC2. It's just more enjoyable to watch. Finally, the difficulty of BW, whilst not enjoyable in itself -> differentiated the best players from the good in an OBVIOUS way. Of course SC2 is a very hard game with a skill ceiling that no human will ever reach. But the way BW worked meant, that you could CLEARLY tell that Bisu's micro was top notch whenever a battle was fought. You could CLEARLY tell Flash's macro was beastly in comparison to other players at the time. Skill was more self-evident in BW than in SC2, even if the games are comparably similar in difficulty.
+1. I also realise that the "death" sounds of units are really watered down in SC2 compared to SC:BW, so its hard to make out whats dying during the battles as a spectator. Actually everything in the sound department sounds abit watered down and lacking the "oopmh" of its predecessor. I mean the BW zealot/zerling melee attack did sound nothing like a psy blade (maybe closer to a lightsaber??), but still it was easy to know if the zealot was attacking or not and it sounded deadly.
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On October 09 2013 13:14 Kheve wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 03:57 Ctone23 wrote:
Seriously though, there is entirely too much whining going on. It's downright depressing coming onto TL and reading through this. I mean, what did you guys expect, for SC2 to beat out the likes of the NFL, EPL, MLB?
Sitting around and bashing SC2 because so-and-so game is getting more viewers, or some nostalgic "BW is the best ever" approach (seriously what other games were out when BW was out that could compete?), just isn't healthy for the scene, and quite frankly shows that e-sports has a lot of growing up to do. What other games were out?!?!??!?! OMG EVERY single game that died out thats what. And why did they die out? coz of BW. Did other developers jes shut their doors and say gg BW > ALL ofc not. They tried they failed thats all. Command and conquer #1 before SC. Many sequels too with existing fanbase but all lost to an older game. Age of Empire another great of its time, all its sequel failed due to BW. Total anihilation touted as the greatest innovation in the rts genre died also when compared to BW. Countless of other big budget rts came and die. Oh yes how could i forget DUNE the grandfather of rts. Its not that BW had no competition, nearly all competition pales in comparison to BW.
This must be one of the stupiest comments that I have ever readed. How then you explain that aoe2 is highest rated rts game of all time? You call that fail? aoe3 is rated great also. aoe2 is also the most pirated game ever.
You are living in your own fantasy world where broodwar rules them all.
And I dont wanna be dick but broodwar was pretty much dead outside of korea already in 2005. (By amounth of players)
Well, you are oblivious troll so I shouldnt answer to you.
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On October 09 2013 18:28 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 18:25 USvBleakill wrote:On October 09 2013 17:54 ETisME wrote:On October 09 2013 17:12 USvBleakill wrote:On October 09 2013 12:42 SpeghettiJoe wrote:
Ok I'm going to unveil the real reason why SC2 is not as popular:
THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH BOOBIES
There's no female hero in sc2 - in LoL there are tons of powerful and beautiful female characters. Yes medivacs I know, but that's just a voice. In SC2, it's truly a sausage fest. And since 99% of gamers are guys, they can only stand sausage fests for so long.
Thats it. After over 60 pages we found it. The ultimate solution. So we should make a list: - more Boobs on the maps - more Boobs on the Bnet (Kerrigan on the start screen is a nice start, expect a strip show with Nova and her) - more Ass on the winning screen (bitches always go to the winners!) - the Ghost should be female, the dying scream is already pretty close to what my southern body part wants or how about Anime skins for our friends from the east: wuhuu Moe-craft with Tea and girls or imagine a new buyable "skin" for the spinecrawler. With new Balance patch "new Spine crawler upgrade *Tentacle Rape*. No explanation needed " to be completely honest, I would pay a lot if they would reskin everything into carbot character skin, that would be so awesome I dont get why Blizzard isn´t open to that, making the game client more open that everyone can mod with skins and make an option that the opponent can deactivate it doesn´t sound that hard. I think they dont have the resources for this and it's really not a high priority topic.
But they do have plans to do that in the near future. Or soon.
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On October 09 2013 20:02 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 13:14 Kheve wrote:On October 09 2013 03:57 Ctone23 wrote:
Seriously though, there is entirely too much whining going on. It's downright depressing coming onto TL and reading through this. I mean, what did you guys expect, for SC2 to beat out the likes of the NFL, EPL, MLB?
Sitting around and bashing SC2 because so-and-so game is getting more viewers, or some nostalgic "BW is the best ever" approach (seriously what other games were out when BW was out that could compete?), just isn't healthy for the scene, and quite frankly shows that e-sports has a lot of growing up to do. What other games were out?!?!??!?! OMG EVERY single game that died out thats what. And why did they die out? coz of BW. Did other developers jes shut their doors and say gg BW > ALL ofc not. They tried they failed thats all. Command and conquer #1 before SC. Many sequels too with existing fanbase but all lost to an older game. Age of Empire another great of its time, all its sequel failed due to BW. Total anihilation touted as the greatest innovation in the rts genre died also when compared to BW. Countless of other big budget rts came and die. Oh yes how could i forget DUNE the grandfather of rts. Its not that BW had no competition, nearly all competition pales in comparison to BW. This must be one of the stupiest comments that I have ever readed. How then you explain that aoe2 is highest rated rts game of all time? You call that fail? aoe3 is rated great also. aoe2 is also the most pirated game ever. You are living in your own fantasy world where broodwar rules them all. And I dont wanna be dick but broodwar was pretty much dead outside of korea already in 2005. (By amounth of players) Well, you are oblivious troll so I shouldnt answer to you.
Agreed. Honestly, I could not give a flying damn about whether SC2 is dead or alive in Korea. We're foreigners, so let's support the foreign scene.
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On October 09 2013 20:36 flashimba wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 20:02 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On October 09 2013 13:14 Kheve wrote:On October 09 2013 03:57 Ctone23 wrote:
Seriously though, there is entirely too much whining going on. It's downright depressing coming onto TL and reading through this. I mean, what did you guys expect, for SC2 to beat out the likes of the NFL, EPL, MLB?
Sitting around and bashing SC2 because so-and-so game is getting more viewers, or some nostalgic "BW is the best ever" approach (seriously what other games were out when BW was out that could compete?), just isn't healthy for the scene, and quite frankly shows that e-sports has a lot of growing up to do. What other games were out?!?!??!?! OMG EVERY single game that died out thats what. And why did they die out? coz of BW. Did other developers jes shut their doors and say gg BW > ALL ofc not. They tried they failed thats all. Command and conquer #1 before SC. Many sequels too with existing fanbase but all lost to an older game. Age of Empire another great of its time, all its sequel failed due to BW. Total anihilation touted as the greatest innovation in the rts genre died also when compared to BW. Countless of other big budget rts came and die. Oh yes how could i forget DUNE the grandfather of rts. Its not that BW had no competition, nearly all competition pales in comparison to BW. This must be one of the stupiest comments that I have ever readed. How then you explain that aoe2 is highest rated rts game of all time? You call that fail? aoe3 is rated great also. aoe2 is also the most pirated game ever. You are living in your own fantasy world where broodwar rules them all. And I dont wanna be dick but broodwar was pretty much dead outside of korea already in 2005. (By amounth of players) Well, you are oblivious troll so I shouldnt answer to you. Agreed. Honestly, I could not give a flying damn about whether SC2 is dead or alive in Korea. We're foreigners, so let's support the foreign scene.
The problems SC2 has in korea are the main thing in almost all of this threads. SC2 in the west is pretty ok´ish with all the competition with games like Dota and LoL. Competition the BW never had.
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Forcefields, Widow Mines and Swarm Hosts. That's the problem.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 09 2013 21:05 KimchiMonster wrote:
Forcefields, Widow Mines and Swarm Hosts. That's the problem.
Now dare to elaborate, how exactly those are problems.
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On October 09 2013 13:33 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 03:57 Ctone23 wrote:
Sitting around and bashing SC2 because so-and-so game is getting more viewers, or some nostalgic "BW is the best ever" approach (seriously what other games were out when BW was out that could compete?), just isn't healthy for the scene, and quite frankly shows that e-sports has a lot of growing up to do. In retrospect, BW blew everyone out the water. But that is a view of knowing the future and interpreting backwards. From Patrick Wyatt's blog (lead developer of Starcraft) Show nested quote +With everyone looking critically at StarCraft, it was clear that the project needed to be vastly more ambitious than our previous ground-breaking efforts in defining the future of the real-time strategy (RTS) genre with the first two Warcraft games.
At the time of the StarCraft reboot, according to Johnny Wilson, then Editor in Chief of Computer Gaming World, the largest-distribution gaming magazine of that time, there were over eighty (80!!) RTS games in development. With so many competitors on our heels, including Westwood Studios, the company that originated the modern RTS play-style, we needed to make something that kicked ass. Emphasis mine. I somehow doubt there are that many rts games in development now though there are a couple big ones that get released.
We're looking at it from the perspective of how competition affected Brood War, but in general you can see that with more games and more competition there will be increased risk taking and more variance in game quality. One of the game that ended up being great was Brood War, it's not necessary luck because in retrospect we can see what decisions were made to cause the desirable gameplay, but let's also not pretend like the developers had perfect foresight. (survivor bias)
Starcraft 2 on the other hand only had Supreme Commander II as competition? And they were guaranteed an audience because of Blizzard's brand value. Of course they would only consolidate and focus on getting a solid, well-produced game. Why should they take risks?
On October 09 2013 20:02 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 13:14 Kheve wrote:On October 09 2013 03:57 Ctone23 wrote:
Seriously though, there is entirely too much whining going on. It's downright depressing coming onto TL and reading through this. I mean, what did you guys expect, for SC2 to beat out the likes of the NFL, EPL, MLB?
Sitting around and bashing SC2 because so-and-so game is getting more viewers, or some nostalgic "BW is the best ever" approach (seriously what other games were out when BW was out that could compete?), just isn't healthy for the scene, and quite frankly shows that e-sports has a lot of growing up to do. What other games were out?!?!??!?! OMG EVERY single game that died out thats what. And why did they die out? coz of BW. Did other developers jes shut their doors and say gg BW > ALL ofc not. They tried they failed thats all. Command and conquer #1 before SC. Many sequels too with existing fanbase but all lost to an older game. Age of Empire another great of its time, all its sequel failed due to BW. Total anihilation touted as the greatest innovation in the rts genre died also when compared to BW. Countless of other big budget rts came and die. Oh yes how could i forget DUNE the grandfather of rts. Its not that BW had no competition, nearly all competition pales in comparison to BW. This must be one of the stupiest comments that I have ever readed. How then you explain that aoe2 is highest rated rts game of all time? You call that fail? aoe3 is rated great also. aoe2 is also the most pirated game ever. You are living in your own fantasy world where broodwar rules them all. And I dont wanna be dick but broodwar was pretty much dead outside of korea already in 2005. (By amounth of players) Well, you are oblivious troll so I shouldnt answer to you.
Age of Empires II is still played at my university while Blizzard RTS games are forgotten. I think that they have an image as being a niche activity that's not necessarily respectable. I don't know if it's because of the difficulty, the cartoon graphics or the people proselyting about the coming of e-sports being seen as cultists, but among an audience of university students it hasn't aged very well.
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On October 09 2013 21:48 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 13:33 Falling wrote:On October 09 2013 03:57 Ctone23 wrote:
Sitting around and bashing SC2 because so-and-so game is getting more viewers, or some nostalgic "BW is the best ever" approach (seriously what other games were out when BW was out that could compete?), just isn't healthy for the scene, and quite frankly shows that e-sports has a lot of growing up to do. In retrospect, BW blew everyone out the water. But that is a view of knowing the future and interpreting backwards. From Patrick Wyatt's blog (lead developer of Starcraft) With everyone looking critically at StarCraft, it was clear that the project needed to be vastly more ambitious than our previous ground-breaking efforts in defining the future of the real-time strategy (RTS) genre with the first two Warcraft games.
At the time of the StarCraft reboot, according to Johnny Wilson, then Editor in Chief of Computer Gaming World, the largest-distribution gaming magazine of that time, there were over eighty (80!!) RTS games in development. With so many competitors on our heels, including Westwood Studios, the company that originated the modern RTS play-style, we needed to make something that kicked ass. Emphasis mine. I somehow doubt there are that many rts games in development now though there are a couple big ones that get released. We're looking at it from the perspective of how competition affected Brood War, but in general you can see that with more games and more competition there will be increased risk taking and more variance in game quality. One of the game that ended up being great was Brood War, it's not necessary luck because in retrospect we can see what decisions were made to cause the desirable gameplay, but let's also not pretend like the developers had perfect foresight. (survivor bias) Starcraft 2 on the other hand only had Supreme Commander II as competition? And they were guaranteed an audience because of Blizzard's brand value. Of course they would only consolidate and focus on getting a solid, well-produced game. Why should they take risks? Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 20:02 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On October 09 2013 13:14 Kheve wrote:On October 09 2013 03:57 Ctone23 wrote:
Seriously though, there is entirely too much whining going on. It's downright depressing coming onto TL and reading through this. I mean, what did you guys expect, for SC2 to beat out the likes of the NFL, EPL, MLB?
Sitting around and bashing SC2 because so-and-so game is getting more viewers, or some nostalgic "BW is the best ever" approach (seriously what other games were out when BW was out that could compete?), just isn't healthy for the scene, and quite frankly shows that e-sports has a lot of growing up to do. What other games were out?!?!??!?! OMG EVERY single game that died out thats what. And why did they die out? coz of BW. Did other developers jes shut their doors and say gg BW > ALL ofc not. They tried they failed thats all. Command and conquer #1 before SC. Many sequels too with existing fanbase but all lost to an older game. Age of Empire another great of its time, all its sequel failed due to BW. Total anihilation touted as the greatest innovation in the rts genre died also when compared to BW. Countless of other big budget rts came and die. Oh yes how could i forget DUNE the grandfather of rts. Its not that BW had no competition, nearly all competition pales in comparison to BW. This must be one of the stupiest comments that I have ever readed. How then you explain that aoe2 is highest rated rts game of all time? You call that fail? aoe3 is rated great also. aoe2 is also the most pirated game ever. You are living in your own fantasy world where broodwar rules them all. And I dont wanna be dick but broodwar was pretty much dead outside of korea already in 2005. (By amounth of players) Well, you are oblivious troll so I shouldnt answer to you. Age of Empires II is still played at my university while Blizzard RTS games are forgotten. I think that they have an image as being a niche activity that's not necessarily respectable. I don't know if it's because of the difficulty, the cartoon graphics or the people proselyting about the coming of e-sports being seen as cultists, but among an audience of university students it hasn't aged very well.
AOE 2 is a very fundamentally sound game that has aged remarkably well. It's easier to play than BW mechanically and it's quite a bit more forgiving for small errors. It also simulates the strategy part of RTS very well.
I used to play it a ton back in the day, got fairly decent. It's definitely one of the all time best RTS games, probably the best for casual play, it's easy to pick up and play, and feels grandiose and epic. It never had the depth or razor edge balance of BW, some civs are clearly broken towards both ends of the spectrum, but that is typically not very important for a bunch of students getting together to play just for fun.
Edit: It just struck me, Koreans were borderline broken in AOE2, meaning they are OP in RTS games both in and out of the game. Nerf pls.
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Why would they plan to add mod- support after they took custom, unofficial, mods?
On October 09 2013 20:27 ReMinD_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 18:28 Big J wrote:On October 09 2013 18:25 USvBleakill wrote:On October 09 2013 17:54 ETisME wrote:On October 09 2013 17:12 USvBleakill wrote:On October 09 2013 12:42 SpeghettiJoe wrote:
Ok I'm going to unveil the real reason why SC2 is not as popular:
THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH BOOBIES
There's no female hero in sc2 - in LoL there are tons of powerful and beautiful female characters. Yes medivacs I know, but that's just a voice. In SC2, it's truly a sausage fest. And since 99% of gamers are guys, they can only stand sausage fests for so long.
Thats it. After over 60 pages we found it. The ultimate solution. So we should make a list: - more Boobs on the maps - more Boobs on the Bnet (Kerrigan on the start screen is a nice start, expect a strip show with Nova and her) - more Ass on the winning screen (bitches always go to the winners!) - the Ghost should be female, the dying scream is already pretty close to what my southern body part wants or how about Anime skins for our friends from the east: wuhuu Moe-craft with Tea and girls or imagine a new buyable "skin" for the spinecrawler. With new Balance patch "new Spine crawler upgrade *Tentacle Rape*. No explanation needed " to be completely honest, I would pay a lot if they would reskin everything into carbot character skin, that would be so awesome I dont get why Blizzard isn´t open to that, making the game client more open that everyone can mod with skins and make an option that the opponent can deactivate it doesn´t sound that hard. I think they dont have the resources for this and it's really not a high priority topic. But they do have plans to do that in the near future. Or soon.
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On October 09 2013 22:21 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 21:48 Grumbels wrote:On October 09 2013 13:33 Falling wrote:On October 09 2013 03:57 Ctone23 wrote:
Sitting around and bashing SC2 because so-and-so game is getting more viewers, or some nostalgic "BW is the best ever" approach (seriously what other games were out when BW was out that could compete?), just isn't healthy for the scene, and quite frankly shows that e-sports has a lot of growing up to do. In retrospect, BW blew everyone out the water. But that is a view of knowing the future and interpreting backwards. From Patrick Wyatt's blog (lead developer of Starcraft) With everyone looking critically at StarCraft, it was clear that the project needed to be vastly more ambitious than our previous ground-breaking efforts in defining the future of the real-time strategy (RTS) genre with the first two Warcraft games.
At the time of the StarCraft reboot, according to Johnny Wilson, then Editor in Chief of Computer Gaming World, the largest-distribution gaming magazine of that time, there were over eighty (80!!) RTS games in development. With so many competitors on our heels, including Westwood Studios, the company that originated the modern RTS play-style, we needed to make something that kicked ass. Emphasis mine. I somehow doubt there are that many rts games in development now though there are a couple big ones that get released. We're looking at it from the perspective of how competition affected Brood War, but in general you can see that with more games and more competition there will be increased risk taking and more variance in game quality. One of the game that ended up being great was Brood War, it's not necessary luck because in retrospect we can see what decisions were made to cause the desirable gameplay, but let's also not pretend like the developers had perfect foresight. (survivor bias) Starcraft 2 on the other hand only had Supreme Commander II as competition? And they were guaranteed an audience because of Blizzard's brand value. Of course they would only consolidate and focus on getting a solid, well-produced game. Why should they take risks? On October 09 2013 20:02 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On October 09 2013 13:14 Kheve wrote:On October 09 2013 03:57 Ctone23 wrote:
Seriously though, there is entirely too much whining going on. It's downright depressing coming onto TL and reading through this. I mean, what did you guys expect, for SC2 to beat out the likes of the NFL, EPL, MLB?
Sitting around and bashing SC2 because so-and-so game is getting more viewers, or some nostalgic "BW is the best ever" approach (seriously what other games were out when BW was out that could compete?), just isn't healthy for the scene, and quite frankly shows that e-sports has a lot of growing up to do. What other games were out?!?!??!?! OMG EVERY single game that died out thats what. And why did they die out? coz of BW. Did other developers jes shut their doors and say gg BW > ALL ofc not. They tried they failed thats all. Command and conquer #1 before SC. Many sequels too with existing fanbase but all lost to an older game. Age of Empire another great of its time, all its sequel failed due to BW. Total anihilation touted as the greatest innovation in the rts genre died also when compared to BW. Countless of other big budget rts came and die. Oh yes how could i forget DUNE the grandfather of rts. Its not that BW had no competition, nearly all competition pales in comparison to BW. This must be one of the stupiest comments that I have ever readed. How then you explain that aoe2 is highest rated rts game of all time? You call that fail? aoe3 is rated great also. aoe2 is also the most pirated game ever. You are living in your own fantasy world where broodwar rules them all. And I dont wanna be dick but broodwar was pretty much dead outside of korea already in 2005. (By amounth of players) Well, you are oblivious troll so I shouldnt answer to you. Age of Empires II is still played at my university while Blizzard RTS games are forgotten. I think that they have an image as being a niche activity that's not necessarily respectable. I don't know if it's because of the difficulty, the cartoon graphics or the people proselyting about the coming of e-sports being seen as cultists, but among an audience of university students it hasn't aged very well. AOE 2 is a very fundamentally sound game that has aged remarkably well. It's easier to play than BW mechanically and it's quite a bit more forgiving for small errors. It also simulates the strategy part of RTS very well. I used to play it a ton back in the day, got fairly decent. It's definitely one of the all time best RTS games, probably the best for casual play, it's easy to pick up and play, and feels grandiose and epic. It never had the depth or razor edge balance of BW, some civs are clearly broken towards both ends of the spectrum, but that is typically not very important for a bunch of students getting together to play just for fun. Edit: It just struck me, Koreans were borderline broken in AOE2, meaning they are OP in RTS games both in and out of the game. Nerf pls.
I played AOE2 a lot and i have with it kind of the same feeling as with WC3 or Unreal Tournament. Yes they are multiplayer games but they aren´t made on the purpose of being "esports". It looks like its just made to make as much fun as possible instead of forcing it.
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On October 09 2013 20:45 USvBleakill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2013 20:36 flashimba wrote:On October 09 2013 20:02 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On October 09 2013 13:14 Kheve wrote:On October 09 2013 03:57 Ctone23 wrote:
Seriously though, there is entirely too much whining going on. It's downright depressing coming onto TL and reading through this. I mean, what did you guys expect, for SC2 to beat out the likes of the NFL, EPL, MLB?
Sitting around and bashing SC2 because so-and-so game is getting more viewers, or some nostalgic "BW is the best ever" approach (seriously what other games were out when BW was out that could compete?), just isn't healthy for the scene, and quite frankly shows that e-sports has a lot of growing up to do. What other games were out?!?!??!?! OMG EVERY single game that died out thats what. And why did they die out? coz of BW. Did other developers jes shut their doors and say gg BW > ALL ofc not. They tried they failed thats all. Command and conquer #1 before SC. Many sequels too with existing fanbase but all lost to an older game. Age of Empire another great of its time, all its sequel failed due to BW. Total anihilation touted as the greatest innovation in the rts genre died also when compared to BW. Countless of other big budget rts came and die. Oh yes how could i forget DUNE the grandfather of rts. Its not that BW had no competition, nearly all competition pales in comparison to BW. This must be one of the stupiest comments that I have ever readed. How then you explain that aoe2 is highest rated rts game of all time? You call that fail? aoe3 is rated great also. aoe2 is also the most pirated game ever. You are living in your own fantasy world where broodwar rules them all. And I dont wanna be dick but broodwar was pretty much dead outside of korea already in 2005. (By amounth of players) Well, you are oblivious troll so I shouldnt answer to you. Agreed. Honestly, I could not give a flying damn about whether SC2 is dead or alive in Korea. We're foreigners, so let's support the foreign scene. The problems SC2 has in korea are the main thing in almost all of this threads. SC2 in the west is pretty ok´ish with all the competition with games like Dota and LoL. Competition the BW never had.
Good point. People treat SC2 and BW as if they would be both completely different. In fact, LoL would have been popular no matter what. Same with DotA2.
The nature of BOTH, SC2 and BW, does not allow for such a megahyped game like LoL. BW in it's prime never had 33 Million players.
Of course, this is only speculation, but judging by everyhing that has been happening so far, I
a) don't think SC2 is on a major decline. It's a decline, but nothing that will kill it and
b) don't think that BW would have been more stable than SC2 by now.
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I really think with the casual players attention span, SC2 should really have those gimicky skins and HUD, voice stuff in there too. Like I am one of those people who got hooked with Dota2 because of those damn skins. Every release of a skin and the trading sceme and betting makes me excited. If every match in Sc2 can be betted with items u loot every after game that would be endless fun unless you dont appreciate it. Its been 2 months since I switched to dota but who knows. We would soon find out.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On October 09 2013 22:59 woreyour wrote:voice stuff
Okay, you got me, i am dreaming of SC1 music and Abathur's/Overmind's voice for zerg adviser.
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EPT
