I installed LoL a couple of days ago and I have to admit its incredibly fun to play. Im kinda hooked now. Ive als tried DotA 2 and Smite and I didnt enjoy those so its not that im just into mobas in general.
SC2 is just not fun, neither 1v1 nor the team games as Ive played quite a lot of those. Ive also installed Age of empires 2 few months ago and that game is also incredibly fun to play so its not the problem that its a RTS, at least for me.
So the problem SC2 has at its core is, as Ive said, its just not fun to play, which is true for me and obviously a lot of people, including pros and some of the more exposed people in the scene. Is the problem pathing, units, graphics or what, I think its the whole package together. Things just didnt click for SC2 (except for the whole esports thing, which is a result more of the amazing comunity rather than the game itself).
On October 09 2013 23:03 TheWorldToCome wrote: It's missing exciting units that BW had: Reaver, Lurker, Spider Mine (although I guess widow mine kinda replaces)
Seeing a reaver shoot a scarab into a line of probes and holding your breath waiting to see if it would explode or be a dud was exciting as hell.
Lurkers were just great units in many ways, as well as the hold position trick where you could lure a pack of MM into a trap and just rape them was great.
I agree with this guy. Sc2 units, minus the baneling and the units ported from BW (Siege tank, mines) are all really boring.
The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
On October 09 2013 23:03 TheWorldToCome wrote: It's missing exciting units that BW had: Reaver, Lurker, Spider Mine (although I guess widow mine kinda replaces)
Seeing a reaver shoot a scarab into a line of probes and holding your breath waiting to see if it would explode or be a dud was exciting as hell.
Lurkers were just great units in many ways, as well as the hold position trick where you could lure a pack of MM into a trap and just rape them was great.
I agree with this guy. Sc2 units, minus the baneling and the units ported from BW (Siege tank, mines) are all really boring.
The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
Storms in BW are more exciting than in SC2 mainly because of limitations.
On October 09 2013 23:03 TheWorldToCome wrote: It's missing exciting units that BW had: Reaver, Lurker, Spider Mine (although I guess widow mine kinda replaces)
Seeing a reaver shoot a scarab into a line of probes and holding your breath waiting to see if it would explode or be a dud was exciting as hell.
Lurkers were just great units in many ways, as well as the hold position trick where you could lure a pack of MM into a trap and just rape them was great.
I agree with this guy. Sc2 units, minus the baneling and the units ported from BW (Siege tank, mines) are all really boring.
The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
Storms in BW are more exciting than in SC2 mainly because of limitations.
for people who follow BW, not for casual. I didn't watch and follow BW and won't understand why it was impressive even when you are telling me you need to select one to use a storm. If a casual see a 5 storms covering all terran movement, do you think it is more interesting for them to watch a pro landing a storm just because it is hard to do? (be it they know it is hard to do or not) I for one certainly won't Hell, let's go beyond storm, guess Toss are F-ed now that they have to click on individual sentries to land forcefields.
On October 09 2013 23:03 TheWorldToCome wrote: It's missing exciting units that BW had: Reaver, Lurker, Spider Mine (although I guess widow mine kinda replaces)
Seeing a reaver shoot a scarab into a line of probes and holding your breath waiting to see if it would explode or be a dud was exciting as hell.
Lurkers were just great units in many ways, as well as the hold position trick where you could lure a pack of MM into a trap and just rape them was great.
I agree with this guy. Sc2 units, minus the baneling and the units ported from BW (Siege tank, mines) are all really boring.
The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
Storms in BW are more exciting than in SC2 mainly because of limitations.
True, but to go back to BW storms would be a devolution of the game. In BW all you could do is storm in that window of potential action. SC2 has a new level of excitement that is multiple actions in the window of potential actions, so you see storm, feedback, zealot micro, blink micro and (to a lesser extent) attacks at other locations. You have to progress the game to make it better and not apply historical relic mechanics.
On October 09 2013 23:03 TheWorldToCome wrote: It's missing exciting units that BW had: Reaver, Lurker, Spider Mine (although I guess widow mine kinda replaces)
Seeing a reaver shoot a scarab into a line of probes and holding your breath waiting to see if it would explode or be a dud was exciting as hell.
Lurkers were just great units in many ways, as well as the hold position trick where you could lure a pack of MM into a trap and just rape them was great.
I agree with this guy. Sc2 units, minus the baneling and the units ported from BW (Siege tank, mines) are all really boring.
The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
There isn't any moment in sc2 that comes close to this level of excitment.
On October 09 2013 23:03 TheWorldToCome wrote: It's missing exciting units that BW had: Reaver, Lurker, Spider Mine (although I guess widow mine kinda replaces)
Seeing a reaver shoot a scarab into a line of probes and holding your breath waiting to see if it would explode or be a dud was exciting as hell.
Lurkers were just great units in many ways, as well as the hold position trick where you could lure a pack of MM into a trap and just rape them was great.
I agree with this guy. Sc2 units, minus the baneling and the units ported from BW (Siege tank, mines) are all really boring.
The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
Storms in BW are more exciting than in SC2 mainly because of limitations.
for people who follow BW, not for casual. I didn't watch and follow BW and won't understand why it was impressive even when you are telling me you need to select one to use a storm. If a casual see a 5 storms covering all terran movement, do you think it is more interesting for them to watch a pro landing a storm just because it is hard to do? (be it they know it is hard to do or not) I for one certainly won't Hell, let's go beyond storm, guess Toss are F-ed now that they have to click on individual sentries to land forcefields.
You want to say that no matter how different settings are dynamics of gameplay will remain the same? You are wrong. Let’s take basketball for example what is more interesting, possession of the ball limited to 24sec or unlimited in time possession?
personally, I like BW storms more, because usually the storms kill the units underneath it (ie hydra and bio resulting in blood everywhere), while in SC2 that happens a lot less. A lot of the time in BW, there will only be a couple of storms in an engagement, but theyre almost always impressive to watch because of it
On October 09 2013 23:03 TheWorldToCome wrote: It's missing exciting units that BW had: Reaver, Lurker, Spider Mine (although I guess widow mine kinda replaces)
Seeing a reaver shoot a scarab into a line of probes and holding your breath waiting to see if it would explode or be a dud was exciting as hell.
Lurkers were just great units in many ways, as well as the hold position trick where you could lure a pack of MM into a trap and just rape them was great.
I agree with this guy. Sc2 units, minus the baneling and the units ported from BW (Siege tank, mines) are all really boring.
The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
Storms in BW are more exciting than in SC2 mainly because of limitations.
True, but to go back to BW storms would be a devolution of the game. In BW all you could do is storm in that window of potential action. SC2 has a new level of excitement that is multiple actions in the window of potential actions, so you see storm, feedback, zealot micro, blink micro and (to a lesser extent) attacks at other locations. You have to progress the game to make it better and not apply historical relic mechanics.
Oh my. I guess that you would also say that in real sport in football for example rules are archaic too? Players are not allowed to touch the ball with hands. What a stupid rule! What people were thinking 100+ years ago when they invented this rule.
On October 09 2013 23:03 TheWorldToCome wrote: It's missing exciting units that BW had: Reaver, Lurker, Spider Mine (although I guess widow mine kinda replaces)
Seeing a reaver shoot a scarab into a line of probes and holding your breath waiting to see if it would explode or be a dud was exciting as hell.
Lurkers were just great units in many ways, as well as the hold position trick where you could lure a pack of MM into a trap and just rape them was great.
I agree with this guy. Sc2 units, minus the baneling and the units ported from BW (Siege tank, mines) are all really boring.
The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
On October 09 2013 23:03 TheWorldToCome wrote: It's missing exciting units that BW had: Reaver, Lurker, Spider Mine (although I guess widow mine kinda replaces)
Seeing a reaver shoot a scarab into a line of probes and holding your breath waiting to see if it would explode or be a dud was exciting as hell.
Lurkers were just great units in many ways, as well as the hold position trick where you could lure a pack of MM into a trap and just rape them was great.
I agree with this guy. Sc2 units, minus the baneling and the units ported from BW (Siege tank, mines) are all really boring.
The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
Storms in BW are more exciting than in SC2 mainly because of limitations.
for people who follow BW, not for casual. I didn't watch and follow BW and won't understand why it was impressive even when you are telling me you need to select one to use a storm. If a casual see a 5 storms covering all terran movement, do you think it is more interesting for them to watch a pro landing a storm just because it is hard to do? (be it they know it is hard to do or not) I for one certainly won't Hell, let's go beyond storm, guess Toss are F-ed now that they have to click on individual sentries to land forcefields.
I hate to be a spoiler but even a blind person can see that a storm in BW is more impressive than in SC2. I don't quite know what that makes you.
On October 09 2013 23:03 TheWorldToCome wrote: It's missing exciting units that BW had: Reaver, Lurker, Spider Mine (although I guess widow mine kinda replaces)
Seeing a reaver shoot a scarab into a line of probes and holding your breath waiting to see if it would explode or be a dud was exciting as hell.
Lurkers were just great units in many ways, as well as the hold position trick where you could lure a pack of MM into a trap and just rape them was great.
I agree with this guy. Sc2 units, minus the baneling and the units ported from BW (Siege tank, mines) are all really boring.
The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
On October 10 2013 14:20 tree.hugger wrote: [quote] I agree with this guy. Sc2 units, minus the baneling and the units ported from BW (Siege tank, mines) are all really boring.
The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
Storms in BW are more exciting than in SC2 mainly because of limitations.
for people who follow BW, not for casual. I didn't watch and follow BW and won't understand why it was impressive even when you are telling me you need to select one to use a storm. If a casual see a 5 storms covering all terran movement, do you think it is more interesting for them to watch a pro landing a storm just because it is hard to do? (be it they know it is hard to do or not) I for one certainly won't Hell, let's go beyond storm, guess Toss are F-ed now that they have to click on individual sentries to land forcefields.
You want to say that no matter how different settings are dynamics of gameplay will remain the same? You are wrong. Let’s take basketball for example what is more interesting, possession of the ball limited to 24sec or unlimited in time possession?
Except those rules are for the game to go more action paced and to keep the game working? Saying all we need is a hardcore mode for gm and tournament is completely dismissing the ladder players how do master play their master cup? They can't even train in ladder How do blizzard balance their game? Using your example, that is like ladder playing netball whole pros play basketball. Suddenly pros build don't quite work together. Then the ladder further increase in queue time because players might be separated into Easy and hardcore mode.
Why do we even stop at this bw difficulty? Why not make it even harder? 200apm for getting the workers to mind will surely blow everyone's mind when you see a pro mining, right? Especially for casual, 5 workers mining, 1000apm wow
On October 09 2013 23:03 TheWorldToCome wrote: It's missing exciting units that BW had: Reaver, Lurker, Spider Mine (although I guess widow mine kinda replaces)
Seeing a reaver shoot a scarab into a line of probes and holding your breath waiting to see if it would explode or be a dud was exciting as hell.
Lurkers were just great units in many ways, as well as the hold position trick where you could lure a pack of MM into a trap and just rape them was great.
I agree with this guy. Sc2 units, minus the baneling and the units ported from BW (Siege tank, mines) are all really boring.
The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
On October 10 2013 15:25 Rabiator wrote: [quote] The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
Storms in BW are more exciting than in SC2 mainly because of limitations.
for people who follow BW, not for casual. I didn't watch and follow BW and won't understand why it was impressive even when you are telling me you need to select one to use a storm. If a casual see a 5 storms covering all terran movement, do you think it is more interesting for them to watch a pro landing a storm just because it is hard to do? (be it they know it is hard to do or not) I for one certainly won't Hell, let's go beyond storm, guess Toss are F-ed now that they have to click on individual sentries to land forcefields.
You want to say that no matter how different settings are dynamics of gameplay will remain the same? You are wrong. Let’s take basketball for example what is more interesting, possession of the ball limited to 24sec or unlimited in time possession?
Except those rules are for the game to go more action paced and to keep the game working? Saying all we need is a hardcore mode for gm and tournament is completely dismissing the ladder players how do master play their master cup? They can't even train in ladder How do blizzard balance their game? Using your example, that is like ladder playing netball whole pros play basketball. Suddenly pros build don't quite work together. Then the ladder further increase in queue time because players might be separated into Easy and hardcore mode.
Why do we even stop at this bw difficulty? Why not make it even harder? 200apm for getting the workers to mind will surely blow everyone's mind when you see a pro mining, right? Especially for casual, 5 workers mining, 1000apm wow
Why even compare to BW? Please leave that game out, it's irrelevant.
We should be comparing SC2 to LoL. SC2 needs to be easier to increase the casual fanbase. I'm all ears to any ideas.
On October 09 2013 23:03 TheWorldToCome wrote: It's missing exciting units that BW had: Reaver, Lurker, Spider Mine (although I guess widow mine kinda replaces)
Seeing a reaver shoot a scarab into a line of probes and holding your breath waiting to see if it would explode or be a dud was exciting as hell.
Lurkers were just great units in many ways, as well as the hold position trick where you could lure a pack of MM into a trap and just rape them was great.
I agree with this guy. Sc2 units, minus the baneling and the units ported from BW (Siege tank, mines) are all really boring.
The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
On October 10 2013 15:25 Rabiator wrote: [quote] The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
Storms in BW are more exciting than in SC2 mainly because of limitations.
for people who follow BW, not for casual. I didn't watch and follow BW and won't understand why it was impressive even when you are telling me you need to select one to use a storm. If a casual see a 5 storms covering all terran movement, do you think it is more interesting for them to watch a pro landing a storm just because it is hard to do? (be it they know it is hard to do or not) I for one certainly won't Hell, let's go beyond storm, guess Toss are F-ed now that they have to click on individual sentries to land forcefields.
You want to say that no matter how different settings are dynamics of gameplay will remain the same? You are wrong. Let’s take basketball for example what is more interesting, possession of the ball limited to 24sec or unlimited in time possession?
Except those rules are for the game to go more action paced and to keep the game working? Saying all we need is a hardcore mode for gm and tournament is completely dismissing the ladder players how do master play their master cup? They can't even train in ladder How do blizzard balance their game? Using your example, that is like ladder playing netball whole pros play basketball. Suddenly pros build don't quite work together. Then the ladder further increase in queue time because players might be separated into Easy and hardcore mode.
Why do we even stop at this bw difficulty? Why not make it even harder? 200apm for getting the workers to mind will surely blow everyone's mind when you see a pro mining, right? Especially for casual, 5 workers mining, 1000apm wow
What do you suggest then? Leave the difficulty of the game as it is now? Or do you see another way how to make it easier for casuals and at the same time not damaging pro scene?
On October 09 2013 23:03 TheWorldToCome wrote: It's missing exciting units that BW had: Reaver, Lurker, Spider Mine (although I guess widow mine kinda replaces)
Seeing a reaver shoot a scarab into a line of probes and holding your breath waiting to see if it would explode or be a dud was exciting as hell.
Lurkers were just great units in many ways, as well as the hold position trick where you could lure a pack of MM into a trap and just rape them was great.
I agree with this guy. Sc2 units, minus the baneling and the units ported from BW (Siege tank, mines) are all really boring.
The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
A level of excitement that 98% of the viewers will not recognize.
I saw that very same sequence when I was getting in to esports for the first time, I was blown away by the sheer visual impact, I felt like fistpumping even though I didn't have a fucking clue what was actually going on.
Comparing that to spamming forcefields in a circle...eh.
On October 10 2013 14:20 tree.hugger wrote: [quote] I agree with this guy. Sc2 units, minus the baneling and the units ported from BW (Siege tank, mines) are all really boring.
The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
A level of excitement that 98% of the viewers will not recognize.
Sounded to me like all the viewers were crazy excited
Thats more a credit to the commentators. Also people that go to a live event are usually more educated in terms of gameplay. I am talking more about the casual online viewer, who would miss a lot of the important parts of any game.
On October 09 2013 23:03 TheWorldToCome wrote: It's missing exciting units that BW had: Reaver, Lurker, Spider Mine (although I guess widow mine kinda replaces)
Seeing a reaver shoot a scarab into a line of probes and holding your breath waiting to see if it would explode or be a dud was exciting as hell.
Lurkers were just great units in many ways, as well as the hold position trick where you could lure a pack of MM into a trap and just rape them was great.
I agree with this guy. Sc2 units, minus the baneling and the units ported from BW (Siege tank, mines) are all really boring.
The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
Storms in BW are more exciting than in SC2 mainly because of limitations.
for people who follow BW, not for casual. I didn't watch and follow BW and won't understand why it was impressive even when you are telling me you need to select one to use a storm. If a casual see a 5 storms covering all terran movement, do you think it is more interesting for them to watch a pro landing a storm just because it is hard to do? (be it they know it is hard to do or not) I for one certainly won't Hell, let's go beyond storm, guess Toss are F-ed now that they have to click on individual sentries to land forcefields.
6300 posts on TL and still so close minded... Your like a unicorn
Let me explain why I like watching pro basketball. I can't ever dream of doing the shit nba players do. I can train all day but I won't ever play like kobe. Similarly, I can play bw all day but I won't be able to consistently blanket storms like Jangbi. As a viewer watching that is effing awesome!
If you still don't get what were saying here is an SC2 analogy: watching bomber play tvz is fun cause he literally has millions of streaming units across the map. I can't do that. Its fun to watch someone else do that. That's where the enjoyment in watching any kind of sport is. Watching people doing what you can't do. Seeing perfection and execution. If anybody could run fast we wouldn't have the 100 yard dash.
BW just has a lot more instances of this kind of stuff than SC2.
Also on a second read of the convo, if you are just arguing that a GM version and a casual version is stupid - I agree haha.
EPT
