On October 10 2013 14:20 tree.hugger wrote: [quote] I agree with this guy. Sc2 units, minus the baneling and the units ported from BW (Siege tank, mines) are all really boring.
The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
Storms in BW are more exciting than in SC2 mainly because of limitations.
for people who follow BW, not for casual. I didn't watch and follow BW and won't understand why it was impressive even when you are telling me you need to select one to use a storm. If a casual see a 5 storms covering all terran movement, do you think it is more interesting for them to watch a pro landing a storm just because it is hard to do? (be it they know it is hard to do or not) I for one certainly won't Hell, let's go beyond storm, guess Toss are F-ed now that they have to click on individual sentries to land forcefields.
6300 posts on TL and still so close minded... Your like a unicorn
Let me explain why I like watching pro basketball. I can't ever dream of doing the shit nba players do. I can train all day but I won't ever play like kobe. Similarly, I can play bw all day but I won't be able to consistently blanket storms like Jangbi. As a viewer watching that is effing awesome!
If you still don't get what were saying here is an SC2 analogy: watching bomber play tvz is fun cause he literally has millions of streaming units across the map. I can't do that. Its fun to watch someone else do that. That's where the enjoyment in watching any kind of sport is. Watching people doing what you can't do. Seeing perfection and execution. If anybody could run fast we wouldn't have the 100 yard dash.
BW just has a lot more instances of this kind of stuff than SC2.
Also on a second read of the convo, if you are just arguing that a GM version and a casual version is stupid - I agree haha.
He gets what you're saying. Thing is, he believes that basketball with a ring 10x greater in diameter will provide the same excitement when someone scores.
I watched BW because I was fascinated by the players. Neither did I understand the game at a deeper level, nor did I play the game that much. I just loved seeing those Koreans battle it out. Quickly, I became a Jaedong fanboy and I tried to catch every game of him / his team. Don't get me wrong here, I liked BW, but as I didn't grow up with the game, I always found it hard to embrace the gameplay. The pathing, the mechanical hurdles, the very difficult micro. For me, SC2 was more attractive, because it was easier to play.
But well, SC2 has its problems, that's for sure. There are less jaw-dropping moments (just think of the Pimpest Plays videos), there are less epic back and forth matches. There are all the issues we've already discussed to death here. And lots of us are basically muttering to themselves. ("uhuh the game is dead, the design is flawed, the pro scene dies out, other games are better for casuals, blah blah blah.") I don't get it. I really don't get it. Yes, the game isn't perfect. The five second / ten million dps battles suck. The battle.net is a terrible place. Protoss is a joke. (j/k) While BW was a game about execution, SC2 is much more a game about information and knowledge. This may be interesting, too, but it's much harder for the casual viewer to appreciate the skill of a player.
I highly doubt that Blizzard is going to fix the problems in the next addon. They've already made their money from SC2, the 2nd addon will only extend the milking for a few years. There's no real reason for them to overhaul the game completely, even if a vocal part of the community is wanting them to do so. The problem is that everybody seems to want something different. With LotV, I expect some big changes to come, but the basic mechanics will (and have to) stay the same.
Personally, I'd never switch to dota/lol. I just hate team games, I've always hated them. (unless they're taking place in real-life with some buddies.) Online, I want to fight against ONE human opponent, I want to determine, whose brain is more powerful, whose hands are quicker. And as I suck at FPS and fighting games, I can only play RTS. So even if the game died, I'd still be playing. I don't give a shit about achievements / skins / whatever, all I really hope is that the next addon will finally bring automated tournaments, practice mode / named games, a REAL ladder (which won't come) and better statistics.
On October 10 2013 14:20 tree.hugger wrote: [quote] I agree with this guy. Sc2 units, minus the baneling and the units ported from BW (Siege tank, mines) are all really boring.
The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
Storms in BW are more exciting than in SC2 mainly because of limitations.
for people who follow BW, not for casual. I didn't watch and follow BW and won't understand why it was impressive even when you are telling me you need to select one to use a storm. If a casual see a 5 storms covering all terran movement, do you think it is more interesting for them to watch a pro landing a storm just because it is hard to do? (be it they know it is hard to do or not) I for one certainly won't Hell, let's go beyond storm, guess Toss are F-ed now that they have to click on individual sentries to land forcefields.
6300 posts on TL and still so close minded... Your like a unicorn
Let me explain why I like watching pro basketball. I can't ever dream of doing the shit nba players do. I can train all day but I won't ever play like kobe. Similarly, I can play bw all day but I won't be able to consistently blanket storms like Jangbi. As a viewer watching that is effing awesome!
If you still don't get what were saying here is an SC2 analogy: watching bomber play tvz is fun cause he literally has millions of streaming units across the map. I can't do that. Its fun to watch someone else do that. That's where the enjoyment in watching any kind of sport is. Watching people doing what you can't do. Seeing perfection and execution. If anybody could run fast we wouldn't have the 100 yard dash.
BW just has a lot more instances of this kind of stuff than SC2.
Also on a second read of the convo, if you are just arguing that a GM version and a casual version is stupid - I agree haha.
I had an idea for this which is based on UI customization: you allow people to play with whatever custom UI they want and have access to unlimited unit selection, timers, notifications, autocasts, and then you add a flag to disable all of that for custom games to prevent them from being used in tournaments if desired. That way all people can play up to their own comfort level on the same ladder, but pro players are expected to play with the basic UI. (probably a bad idea :o )
On October 10 2013 15:25 Rabiator wrote: [quote] The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
There isn't any moment in sc2 that comes close to this level of excitment.
A level of excitement that 98% of the viewers will not recognize.
Sounded to me like all the viewers were crazy excited
Thats more a credit to the commentators. Also people that go to a live event are usually more educated in terms of gameplay. I am talking more about the casual online viewer, who would miss a lot of the important parts of any game.
Your arguing for the sake of arguing. Any casual online bw fan (whose played the game at least once) would know how hard that is.
On October 10 2013 15:25 Rabiator wrote: [quote] The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
Storms in BW are more exciting than in SC2 mainly because of limitations.
for people who follow BW, not for casual. I didn't watch and follow BW and won't understand why it was impressive even when you are telling me you need to select one to use a storm. If a casual see a 5 storms covering all terran movement, do you think it is more interesting for them to watch a pro landing a storm just because it is hard to do? (be it they know it is hard to do or not) I for one certainly won't Hell, let's go beyond storm, guess Toss are F-ed now that they have to click on individual sentries to land forcefields.
6300 posts on TL and still so close minded... Your like a unicorn
Let me explain why I like watching pro basketball. I can't ever dream of doing the shit nba players do. I can train all day but I won't ever play like kobe. Similarly, I can play bw all day but I won't be able to consistently blanket storms like Jangbi. As a viewer watching that is effing awesome!
If you still don't get what were saying here is an SC2 analogy: watching bomber play tvz is fun cause he literally has millions of streaming units across the map. I can't do that. Its fun to watch someone else do that. That's where the enjoyment in watching any kind of sport is. Watching people doing what you can't do. Seeing perfection and execution. If anybody could run fast we wouldn't have the 100 yard dash.
BW just has a lot more instances of this kind of stuff than SC2.
Also on a second read of the convo, if you are just arguing that a GM version and a casual version is stupid - I agree haha.
I had an idea for this which is based on UI customization: you allow people to play with whatever custom UI they want and have access to unlimited unit selection, timers, notifications, autocasts, and then you add a flag to disable all of that for custom games to prevent them from being used in tournaments if desired. That way all people can play up to their own comfort level on the same ladder, but pro players are expected to play with the basic UI.
Wtf dude.. With money on the line why would people choose to handicap themselves. This isn't an honor system. Its like when every pro knows spreading your units across the screen (like in bw) is so much more epic for viewers to watch, but they don't cause the deathball is just simply stronger. Pros know it might be more fun for viewers but if they will lose the game because of that, theyre not gonna do it.
Blizzard needs to make the game more mechanically demanding for everone to make the best players actually stand out. And they are trying to do that........ through units. Honestly, thats their only real approach now without changing literally the whole game. They went all-in with MBS, smartcast and all that other shit. Would be such a bad corporate move for them to change the fundamentals of the game even if it would lead to better results.
On October 10 2013 15:25 Rabiator wrote: [quote] The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
Storms in BW are more exciting than in SC2 mainly because of limitations.
for people who follow BW, not for casual. I didn't watch and follow BW and won't understand why it was impressive even when you are telling me you need to select one to use a storm. If a casual see a 5 storms covering all terran movement, do you think it is more interesting for them to watch a pro landing a storm just because it is hard to do? (be it they know it is hard to do or not) I for one certainly won't Hell, let's go beyond storm, guess Toss are F-ed now that they have to click on individual sentries to land forcefields.
6300 posts on TL and still so close minded... Your like a unicorn
Let me explain why I like watching pro basketball. I can't ever dream of doing the shit nba players do. I can train all day but I won't ever play like kobe. Similarly, I can play bw all day but I won't be able to consistently blanket storms like Jangbi. As a viewer watching that is effing awesome!
If you still don't get what were saying here is an SC2 analogy: watching bomber play tvz is fun cause he literally has millions of streaming units across the map. I can't do that. Its fun to watch someone else do that. That's where the enjoyment in watching any kind of sport is. Watching people doing what you can't do. Seeing perfection and execution. If anybody could run fast we wouldn't have the 100 yard dash.
BW just has a lot more instances of this kind of stuff than SC2.
Also on a second read of the convo, if you are just arguing that a GM version and a casual version is stupid - I agree haha.
He gets what you're saying. Thing is, he believes that basketball with a ring 10x greater in diameter will provide the same excitement when someone scores.
On October 10 2013 14:20 tree.hugger wrote: [quote] I agree with this guy. Sc2 units, minus the baneling and the units ported from BW (Siege tank, mines) are all really boring.
The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
Storms in BW are more exciting than in SC2 mainly because of limitations.
for people who follow BW, not for casual. I didn't watch and follow BW and won't understand why it was impressive even when you are telling me you need to select one to use a storm. If a casual see a 5 storms covering all terran movement, do you think it is more interesting for them to watch a pro landing a storm just because it is hard to do? (be it they know it is hard to do or not) I for one certainly won't Hell, let's go beyond storm, guess Toss are F-ed now that they have to click on individual sentries to land forcefields.
6300 posts on TL and still so close minded... Your like a unicorn
Let me explain why I like watching pro basketball. I can't ever dream of doing the shit nba players do. I can train all day but I won't ever play like kobe. Similarly, I can play bw all day but I won't be able to consistently blanket storms like Jangbi. As a viewer watching that is effing awesome!
If you still don't get what were saying here is an SC2 analogy: watching bomber play tvz is fun cause he literally has millions of streaming units across the map. I can't do that. Its fun to watch someone else do that. That's where the enjoyment in watching any kind of sport is. Watching people doing what you can't do. Seeing perfection and execution. If anybody could run fast we wouldn't have the 100 yard dash.
BW just has a lot more instances of this kind of stuff than SC2.
Also on a second read of the convo, if you are just arguing that a GM version and a casual version is stupid - I agree haha.
DOTA was сasual mod for WC3. So you want to say that all the people who started playing DOTA instead of default wc3 ladder were stupid?
That SC2 isn't "fun" is actually pretty obvious... If it would be fun, why is the campaign SOOO diffrent from the "actual" game with tons of extra units, Mercs/Kerrigan and tons of upgrades for the MP units? As it seems, even Blizzard, while creating SC2, knew that the "normal" Multiplayer-Units aren't fun enoug to play with.
I mean, look at WC3... While the campaign there is extremly hero focussed it actually plays pretty much like the normal game, you mainly play around with the units and heroes you actually use in Multiplayer which also behave like in Multiplayer. Sure, there is the occasional super unit like the giant Frostwyrm, but your normal units don't need/have ridiculous upgrades to make stuff exciting...
On October 10 2013 15:25 Rabiator wrote: [quote] The units are only boring because "everything is special" and as a consequence special becomes normal. If there was no smartcast any Fungal Growth would be exciting, because there would be far fewer of them, but to combat the massive numbers of units clumped up you have to have smartcast activated. The same holds true for Forcefield and EMP and Psi Storm. Just look at EMP in BW for example and you see that it simply couldnt be used to "blanket a Protoss army" because it was part of the Science Vessel spells and thus there werent as many casters. The same is true for Feedback, which the Dark Archon - which no one got - had.
So to make units exciting they need to become "more special" and thus less frequently used, much harder to use AND more powerful. The Lurker has been added to the campaign and you can compare those SC2 stats to the BW stats to see how it would "have to be treated" to make it acceptable for SC2. It would become weak and boring and the same has happened to the other units that have already been "converted to SC2" ... and the reason is simply the stupid perfect unit pathing and unlimited unit selection, which the devs thought necessary for the game. Get rid of those two and you have a more exciting game where you can allow "locally overpowered units" to exist.
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
Storms in BW are more exciting than in SC2 mainly because of limitations.
for people who follow BW, not for casual. I didn't watch and follow BW and won't understand why it was impressive even when you are telling me you need to select one to use a storm. If a casual see a 5 storms covering all terran movement, do you think it is more interesting for them to watch a pro landing a storm just because it is hard to do? (be it they know it is hard to do or not) I for one certainly won't Hell, let's go beyond storm, guess Toss are F-ed now that they have to click on individual sentries to land forcefields.
6300 posts on TL and still so close minded... Your like a unicorn
Let me explain why I like watching pro basketball. I can't ever dream of doing the shit nba players do. I can train all day but I won't ever play like kobe. Similarly, I can play bw all day but I won't be able to consistently blanket storms like Jangbi. As a viewer watching that is effing awesome!
If you still don't get what were saying here is an SC2 analogy: watching bomber play tvz is fun cause he literally has millions of streaming units across the map. I can't do that. Its fun to watch someone else do that. That's where the enjoyment in watching any kind of sport is. Watching people doing what you can't do. Seeing perfection and execution. If anybody could run fast we wouldn't have the 100 yard dash.
BW just has a lot more instances of this kind of stuff than SC2.
Also on a second read of the convo, if you are just arguing that a GM version and a casual version is stupid - I agree haha.
DOTA is сasual version of WC3. So you want to say that all the people who started playing DOTA instead of default wc3 ladder were stupid?
That is nonsense since one is a MOBA game and the other is a RTS.
On October 10 2013 16:46 USvBleakill wrote: [quote]
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
Storms in BW are more exciting than in SC2 mainly because of limitations.
for people who follow BW, not for casual. I didn't watch and follow BW and won't understand why it was impressive even when you are telling me you need to select one to use a storm. If a casual see a 5 storms covering all terran movement, do you think it is more interesting for them to watch a pro landing a storm just because it is hard to do? (be it they know it is hard to do or not) I for one certainly won't Hell, let's go beyond storm, guess Toss are F-ed now that they have to click on individual sentries to land forcefields.
6300 posts on TL and still so close minded... Your like a unicorn
Let me explain why I like watching pro basketball. I can't ever dream of doing the shit nba players do. I can train all day but I won't ever play like kobe. Similarly, I can play bw all day but I won't be able to consistently blanket storms like Jangbi. As a viewer watching that is effing awesome!
If you still don't get what were saying here is an SC2 analogy: watching bomber play tvz is fun cause he literally has millions of streaming units across the map. I can't do that. Its fun to watch someone else do that. That's where the enjoyment in watching any kind of sport is. Watching people doing what you can't do. Seeing perfection and execution. If anybody could run fast we wouldn't have the 100 yard dash.
BW just has a lot more instances of this kind of stuff than SC2.
Also on a second read of the convo, if you are just arguing that a GM version and a casual version is stupid - I agree haha.
I had an idea for this which is based on UI customization: you allow people to play with whatever custom UI they want and have access to unlimited unit selection, timers, notifications, autocasts, and then you add a flag to disable all of that for custom games to prevent them from being used in tournaments if desired. That way all people can play up to their own comfort level on the same ladder, but pro players are expected to play with the basic UI.
Wtf dude.. With money on the line why would people choose to handicap themselves. This isn't an honor system. Its like when every pro knows spreading your units across the screen (like in bw) is so much more epic for viewers to watch, but they don't cause the deathball is just simply stronger. Pros know it might be more fun for viewers but if they will lose the game because of that, theyre not gonna do it.
Blizzard needs to make the game more mechanically demanding for everone to make the best players actually stand out. And they are trying to do that........ through units. Honestly, thats their only real approach now without changing literally the whole game. They went all-in with MBS, smartcast and all that other shit. Would be such a bad corporate move for them to change the fundamentals of the game even if it would lead to better results.
I agree with bolded part. But I'd like to hear how to do it without hurting whose who complain that sc2 is already very difficult?
On October 10 2013 18:58 Velr wrote: That SC2 isn't "fun" is actually pretty obvious... If it would be fun, why is the campaign SOOO diffrent from the "actual" game with tons of extra units, Mercs/Kerrigan and tons of upgrades for the MP units? As it seems, even Blizzard, while creating SC2, knew that the "normal" Multiplayer-Units aren't fun enoug to play with.
I mean, look at WC3... While the campaign there is extremly hero focussed it actually plays pretty much like the normal game, you mainly play around with the units and heroes you actually use in Multiplayer which also behave like in Multiplayer. Sure, there is the occasional super unit like the giant Frostwyrm, but your normal units don't need/have ridiculous upgrades to make stuff exciting...
Well, I enjoy all the different choices for the units in the single player, but it's really shocking that there are no multiplayer scenarios where you can experiment with those units. I mean, why restrict them to single player? I think it goes to show that by making 1vs1 the focus of the multiplayer Blizzard made a mistake, since it's very limiting and won't allow them to incorporate the units from the singleplayer and such. How many people would like to play with lurkers in multiplayer and have to hear some silly reason from Blizzard like "sanctity of 1vs1 balance" as to why they can't?
On October 10 2013 16:46 USvBleakill wrote: [quote]
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
Storms in BW are more exciting than in SC2 mainly because of limitations.
for people who follow BW, not for casual. I didn't watch and follow BW and won't understand why it was impressive even when you are telling me you need to select one to use a storm. If a casual see a 5 storms covering all terran movement, do you think it is more interesting for them to watch a pro landing a storm just because it is hard to do? (be it they know it is hard to do or not) I for one certainly won't Hell, let's go beyond storm, guess Toss are F-ed now that they have to click on individual sentries to land forcefields.
6300 posts on TL and still so close minded... Your like a unicorn
Let me explain why I like watching pro basketball. I can't ever dream of doing the shit nba players do. I can train all day but I won't ever play like kobe. Similarly, I can play bw all day but I won't be able to consistently blanket storms like Jangbi. As a viewer watching that is effing awesome!
If you still don't get what were saying here is an SC2 analogy: watching bomber play tvz is fun cause he literally has millions of streaming units across the map. I can't do that. Its fun to watch someone else do that. That's where the enjoyment in watching any kind of sport is. Watching people doing what you can't do. Seeing perfection and execution. If anybody could run fast we wouldn't have the 100 yard dash.
BW just has a lot more instances of this kind of stuff than SC2.
Also on a second read of the convo, if you are just arguing that a GM version and a casual version is stupid - I agree haha.
DOTA is сasual version of WC3. So you want to say that all the people who started playing DOTA instead of default wc3 ladder were stupid?
That is nonsense since one is a MOBA game and the other is a RTS.
Dota started out literally being the heroes of Warcraft, but with the units and base building automated. It was an easy mode version of the game. The only reason it's viable as a competitive game is the team play aspect, but many people just stick to their lane and don't care too much about the team play aspect and they consider ganking to be cheap.
On October 10 2013 16:46 USvBleakill wrote: [quote]
I kinda agree with this post, but it shows greatly that this is not that easy then a lot of people argue.
You say that it would be better if SC2 would be harder to play with cutting smartcast unlimited unit selection and pathing. You say it would be a higher skill cap and we could really appreciate the "amazing fungals" in pro games and you are kind of right.
The point were the rat bites his tail is that a lot of people claim the success on LoL and Dota that they have a huge player base. But the thing is this player base are mostly casuals that play the MOBA games because they are team games and relatively easy to understand and execute.
You just cannot sell a game no matter if it is ftp or 50 bucks with things like limited unit selection, no waypoints and weird unit movement in 2013. Testing magazines or websides would destory that game and saying "well its kinda cool but it has controles from times were our main audience was 3 feet tall."
The solution is quite simple. Only GM players and progamers should play on harder settings.
and do you think people would prefer to watch a more difficult to play game in which it looks the same except you know it is more difficult but the overall gameplay would look worse than a high master game?
The overall gameplay would look better not worse.
that's very confident of you. because landing a storm is suddenly more exciting as landing a storm? I highly doubt a pro can play as good as any KR high master with all those limitations on. people especially casuals won't care if the pros are able to land a storm because he is able to click on one HTs and cast them or just smart casting. they want to watch the storm killing everything or dodging storms.
Storms in BW are more exciting than in SC2 mainly because of limitations.
for people who follow BW, not for casual. I didn't watch and follow BW and won't understand why it was impressive even when you are telling me you need to select one to use a storm. If a casual see a 5 storms covering all terran movement, do you think it is more interesting for them to watch a pro landing a storm just because it is hard to do? (be it they know it is hard to do or not) I for one certainly won't Hell, let's go beyond storm, guess Toss are F-ed now that they have to click on individual sentries to land forcefields.
6300 posts on TL and still so close minded... Your like a unicorn
Let me explain why I like watching pro basketball. I can't ever dream of doing the shit nba players do. I can train all day but I won't ever play like kobe. Similarly, I can play bw all day but I won't be able to consistently blanket storms like Jangbi. As a viewer watching that is effing awesome!
If you still don't get what were saying here is an SC2 analogy: watching bomber play tvz is fun cause he literally has millions of streaming units across the map. I can't do that. Its fun to watch someone else do that. That's where the enjoyment in watching any kind of sport is. Watching people doing what you can't do. Seeing perfection and execution. If anybody could run fast we wouldn't have the 100 yard dash.
BW just has a lot more instances of this kind of stuff than SC2.
Also on a second read of the convo, if you are just arguing that a GM version and a casual version is stupid - I agree haha.
I had an idea for this which is based on UI customization: you allow people to play with whatever custom UI they want and have access to unlimited unit selection, timers, notifications, autocasts, and then you add a flag to disable all of that for custom games to prevent them from being used in tournaments if desired. That way all people can play up to their own comfort level on the same ladder, but pro players are expected to play with the basic UI.
Wtf dude.. With money on the line why would people choose to handicap themselves. This isn't an honor system. Its like when every pro knows spreading your units across the screen (like in bw) is so much more epic for viewers to watch, but they don't cause the deathball is just simply stronger. Pros know it might be more fun for viewers but if they will lose the game because of that, theyre not gonna do it.
Blizzard needs to make the game more mechanically demanding for everone to make the best players actually stand out. And they are trying to do that........ through units. Honestly, thats their only real approach now without changing literally the whole game. They went all-in with MBS, smartcast and all that other shit. Would be such a bad corporate move for them to change the fundamentals of the game even if it would lead to better results.
1. nobody cares about the ladder ranking if tournaments exist 2. you seem to have missed what I said about a flag to disable it in custom games
On October 10 2013 19:04 Xenocide_Knight wrote: Also, if sc2 was fun, it wouldn't be dying so fast in korea where people don't give a damn about esports, only about fun.
Yeah I'm sure stuff like Kespa was formed out of their lack of care for e-sports.
On October 10 2013 19:29 drkcid wrote: So, you guys don´t think that having custom balance settings like the game speed wouldn´t make the things better?
IE: "casual", "hard" and "championship". Championship where for example storms needs more energy and are powerful like BW.
It won´t happen but It sounds interesting.
I am sure it will. At least this idea should be tested and modified according to results of tests. In SC3 everything can happen.
On October 10 2013 19:04 Xenocide_Knight wrote: Also, if sc2 was fun, it wouldn't be dying so fast in korea where people don't give a damn about esports, only about fun.
Yeah I'm sure stuff like Kespa was formed out of their lack of care for e-sports.
Kespa was formed to organize a game people enjoyed. When a shittier game tried to muscle in and steal the infrastructure, look what happened, everyone started to abandon ship to a different game that's more enjoyable. Can't live off the momentum of your predecessor forever.
On October 10 2013 19:04 Xenocide_Knight wrote: Also, if sc2 was fun, it wouldn't be dying so fast in korea where people don't give a damn about esports, only about fun.
Yeah I'm sure stuff like Kespa was formed out of their lack of care for e-sports.
Kespa was formed to organize a game people enjoyed. When a shittier game tried to muscle in and steal the infrastructure, look what happened, everyone started to abandon ship to a different game that's more enjoyable. Can't live off the momentum of your predecessor forever.
Fuck, why can't everyone be like Korea. They're so perfect aren't they?
On October 10 2013 19:04 Xenocide_Knight wrote: Also, if sc2 was fun, it wouldn't be dying so fast in korea where people don't give a damn about esports, only about fun.
Yeah I'm sure stuff like Kespa was formed out of their lack of care for e-sports.
Kespa was formed to organize a game people enjoyed. When a shittier game tried to muscle in and steal the infrastructure, look what happened, everyone started to abandon ship to a different game that's more enjoyable. Can't live off the momentum of your predecessor forever.
You know why it was more enjoyed? Cause there are UMS games and it was free to play in pc bangs. If sc2 had no accountsystem i think it would be much much bigger in korea aswell. LOL isnt more enjoyable than sc2 per se. I would argue with the community as tocix as it is, its even less enjoyable a lot of times. People just dont like challenge, they like easy games without having too much stress. You can see that in every game that is released today, its all way more casual, hell even some browsergames have like 40 million players, cause they are easy to play (here: enjoyable -.-). Sc2 was just badly released (bad custom games settings, accountsystem, etc) But pls stop with that general statement of lol being more enjoyable, cause it isnt per se, its just way easier for people without any gaming experiance to get into..
On October 10 2013 19:04 Xenocide_Knight wrote: Also, if sc2 was fun, it wouldn't be dying so fast in korea where people don't give a damn about esports, only about fun.
Yeah I'm sure stuff like Kespa was formed out of their lack of care for e-sports.
Kespa was formed to organize a game people enjoyed. When a shittier game tried to muscle in and steal the infrastructure, look what happened, everyone started to abandon ship to a different game that's more enjoyable. Can't live off the momentum of your predecessor forever.
Fuck, why can't everyone be like Korea. They're so perfect aren't they?
EPT
