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On August 29 2013 03:27 a3den wrote:
So KeSPA new dictator had his friends pass a bill so they would be relevant again ? I really really despise the way koreans do shit.
The bill was passed 18 months ago, long before chairman took over KeSPA, op didn't translate the date. And this is just a new plan by him, a lot of things need to happen for this plan to work, so a fail is possible, after all this plan is very ambitious.
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On August 29 2013 05:03 D4RK.EarthQuakeN wrote:
Some1 needs to take charge! im confused.. does this mean EG and TL spent their entry fees when the very next season its free?
It's a security deposit, they got their money back after the season ended.
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On August 29 2013 02:35 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 00:55 Plansix wrote:On August 29 2013 00:52 Destructicon wrote:On August 29 2013 00:14 NuKE[vZ] wrote:
This is awful... basically a monopoly.
You'll have organizations that have no experience with eSports come in and throw money around and dictate what must be done to people with experience.
I hope this somehow works out, but when there is no competition and something is monopolized it generally doesn't work out very well as greed and other things kick in. Thats not at all how it works. If you'd have actually taken the time to read the damn article you'd have seen that KeSPA is a regulating body, they make sure the interests of their members and players are protected, since everyone in SK can join them now then everyone can have a word in KeSPA and they can make sure their interests are protected. Apart from that KeSPA makes sure all organizations and players are treated fairly and get an actual salary and stuff. Also saying they have no experience is just flat out idiotic, these are the founders of modern eSports as it is in South Korea, while some of their methods and policies might have been archaic this has all now been rectified. I see no reason at all to worry and complain about this, its almost like complaining the ministry of transports has sole right to govern over and regulate transportation policies. This is ultimately a good thing. That and every major sports league in North America is a monopoly. They receive an exception from the US government for being one, since they provide a product people want and every region has a sports team. It is how most sports leagues work, that they are regulated by a large group of interested parties. That's not quite it. The reason they are "exempt" from laws is because the union and league have formed a collective agreement between the two parties. The second the union decertifies, the anti-trust allegations and lawsuits begin. Even then, there is no guarantee that anti-trust lawsuits will work since the teams are considered individual entities under the single entity that is the league. Shit gets pretty messy. With eSports it's different since its not really the league imposing the rules but the players' association. There is also, to my knowledge, no collective agreement between the PA and the leagues as well as there being multiple leagues to enter. The monopoly case would be a very difficult point to argue due to the structure of the current system. Source: I've taken business classes relating to this stuff. You can see what happened in the recent NHL/NFL CBA fiascos.
MLB has an antitrust exemption. I believe it is the only league with one. Collective bargaining does prevent the union from filing anti-trust lawsuits until they decertify.
Teams are not considered individual entities under their league. That is just the argument that the leagues put forward. Courts have not actually ruled on the matter and the parties have always settled before the courts can rule.
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Well I just fear teams will come and go now as they please/see fit. Eh, as the saying goes; everything was better in the past.
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good news! Hope to see some awesome games come out of this
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This is some major shit (I almost read that at first glance :/).
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On August 29 2013 02:50 manicshock wrote:
I for one accept our new KeSPA overlords.
^
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On August 29 2013 05:41 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 02:35 chadissilent wrote:On August 29 2013 00:55 Plansix wrote:On August 29 2013 00:52 Destructicon wrote:On August 29 2013 00:14 NuKE[vZ] wrote:
This is awful... basically a monopoly.
You'll have organizations that have no experience with eSports come in and throw money around and dictate what must be done to people with experience.
I hope this somehow works out, but when there is no competition and something is monopolized it generally doesn't work out very well as greed and other things kick in. Thats not at all how it works. If you'd have actually taken the time to read the damn article you'd have seen that KeSPA is a regulating body, they make sure the interests of their members and players are protected, since everyone in SK can join them now then everyone can have a word in KeSPA and they can make sure their interests are protected. Apart from that KeSPA makes sure all organizations and players are treated fairly and get an actual salary and stuff. Also saying they have no experience is just flat out idiotic, these are the founders of modern eSports as it is in South Korea, while some of their methods and policies might have been archaic this has all now been rectified. I see no reason at all to worry and complain about this, its almost like complaining the ministry of transports has sole right to govern over and regulate transportation policies. This is ultimately a good thing. That and every major sports league in North America is a monopoly. They receive an exception from the US government for being one, since they provide a product people want and every region has a sports team. It is how most sports leagues work, that they are regulated by a large group of interested parties. That's not quite it. The reason they are "exempt" from laws is because the union and league have formed a collective agreement between the two parties. The second the union decertifies, the anti-trust allegations and lawsuits begin. Even then, there is no guarantee that anti-trust lawsuits will work since the teams are considered individual entities under the single entity that is the league. Shit gets pretty messy. With eSports it's different since its not really the league imposing the rules but the players' association. There is also, to my knowledge, no collective agreement between the PA and the leagues as well as there being multiple leagues to enter. The monopoly case would be a very difficult point to argue due to the structure of the current system. Source: I've taken business classes relating to this stuff. You can see what happened in the recent NHL/NFL CBA fiascos. MLB has an antitrust exemption. I believe it is the only league with one. Collective bargaining does prevent the union from filing anti-trust lawsuits until they decertify. Teams are not considered individual entities under their league. That is just the argument that the leagues put forward. Courts have not actually ruled on the matter and the parties have always settled before the courts can rule.
That's true that MLB does have a special government exemption but IIRC that was established back in the 1920's and was never been revoked. With that said, no other league is able to get this status.
With regards to the decertification of unions, the only caveat is that the decertification must be under the premise that the union leaders can no longer satisfy the needs of the union and it is better off to dissolve them. The second the NHL saw the NHLPA try to decertify, they filed lawsuits claiming that the decertification was simply a negotiating tactic and the PA was bargaining in bad faith. I wish there would have been a court resolution to this as it was a highly interesting scenario.
The other argument a players' association must put forward if they way to claim a single entity monlpoly is that the players cannot earn a comparable salary elsewhere -- there must be a lack competition. In the NHL's case, players have fled the NHL to make more money in the Swiss league and the KHL, so there are other alternatives which make antitrust lawsuits much harder to prove.
The reason I bring this up is that it may apply to eSports. If a player isn't happy with his KeSPA deal, he can always sign with a foreign team and participate in foreign tournaments. Although there is a monopoly in Korea, the fact that it is an international "sport" (I use that term loosely), means that of there are other opportunities globally, a single entity antitrust argument does not hold weight.
Enough on the business side if things, I think this will be a good move for Korean eSports. A powerful single governing entity with more structure will demonstrate a more stable landscape and may provide a more attractive marketing platform to potential sponsors.
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On August 29 2013 03:27 a3den wrote:
So KeSPA new dictator had his friends pass a bill so they would be relevant again ? I really really despise the way koreans do shit.
hahaha, did you really just said that koreans are the only one doing these kind of stuff?
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On August 29 2013 08:25 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 03:27 a3den wrote:
So KeSPA new dictator had his friends pass a bill so they would be relevant again ? I really really despise the way koreans do shit. hahaha, did you really just said that koreans are the only one doing these kind of stuff?
No they aren't the only ones, far from it. Also, I wrote "dictator" but I meant "director". Quite the freudian slip there...
What I hate about this : if PL is not worth it for foreign teams (as EGTL learnt us), and eSF teams go to KeSPA for LoL, then the only possibility is that foreign teams play in GSTL with the few korean teams remaining in eSF. So from our pov (the foreign audience), the best competitive league (arguably) ends with the worst broadcaster (hello SpoTV) and the best broadcaster with a second tier league.
And still, another individual league is needed because cash prizes opportunities for SK players are mostly GSL and that's clearly not enough given the numbers of pro in SK.
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On August 29 2013 07:54 chadissilent wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 29 2013 05:41 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 02:35 chadissilent wrote:On August 29 2013 00:55 Plansix wrote:On August 29 2013 00:52 Destructicon wrote:On August 29 2013 00:14 NuKE[vZ] wrote:
This is awful... basically a monopoly.
You'll have organizations that have no experience with eSports come in and throw money around and dictate what must be done to people with experience.
I hope this somehow works out, but when there is no competition and something is monopolized it generally doesn't work out very well as greed and other things kick in. Thats not at all how it works. If you'd have actually taken the time to read the damn article you'd have seen that KeSPA is a regulating body, they make sure the interests of their members and players are protected, since everyone in SK can join them now then everyone can have a word in KeSPA and they can make sure their interests are protected. Apart from that KeSPA makes sure all organizations and players are treated fairly and get an actual salary and stuff. Also saying they have no experience is just flat out idiotic, these are the founders of modern eSports as it is in South Korea, while some of their methods and policies might have been archaic this has all now been rectified. I see no reason at all to worry and complain about this, its almost like complaining the ministry of transports has sole right to govern over and regulate transportation policies. This is ultimately a good thing. That and every major sports league in North America is a monopoly. They receive an exception from the US government for being one, since they provide a product people want and every region has a sports team. It is how most sports leagues work, that they are regulated by a large group of interested parties. That's not quite it. The reason they are "exempt" from laws is because the union and league have formed a collective agreement between the two parties. The second the union decertifies, the anti-trust allegations and lawsuits begin. Even then, there is no guarantee that anti-trust lawsuits will work since the teams are considered individual entities under the single entity that is the league. Shit gets pretty messy. With eSports it's different since its not really the league imposing the rules but the players' association. There is also, to my knowledge, no collective agreement between the PA and the leagues as well as there being multiple leagues to enter. The monopoly case would be a very difficult point to argue due to the structure of the current system. Source: I've taken business classes relating to this stuff. You can see what happened in the recent NHL/NFL CBA fiascos. MLB has an antitrust exemption. I believe it is the only league with one. Collective bargaining does prevent the union from filing anti-trust lawsuits until they decertify. Teams are not considered individual entities under their league. That is just the argument that the leagues put forward. Courts have not actually ruled on the matter and the parties have always settled before the courts can rule. That's true that MLB does have a special government exemption but IIRC that was established back in the 1920's and was never been revoked. With that said, no other league is able to get this status. With regards to the decertification of unions, the only caveat is that the decertification must be under the premise that the union leaders can no longer satisfy the needs of the union and it is better off to dissolve them. The second the NHL saw the NHLPA try to decertify, they filed lawsuits claiming that the decertification was simply a negotiating tactic and the PA was bargaining in bad faith. I wish there would have been a court resolution to this as it was a highly interesting scenario. The other argument a players' association must put forward if they way to claim a single entity monlpoly is that the players cannot earn a comparable salary elsewhere -- there must be a lack competition. In the NHL's case, players have fled the NHL to make more money in the Swiss league and the KHL, so there are other alternatives which make antitrust lawsuits much harder to prove. The reason I bring this up is that it may apply to eSports. If a player isn't happy with his KeSPA deal, he can always sign with a foreign team and participate in foreign tournaments. Although there is a monopoly in Korea, the fact that it is an international "sport" (I use that term loosely), means that of there are other opportunities globally, a single entity antitrust argument does not hold weight. Enough on the business side if things, I think this will be a good move for Korean eSports. A powerful single governing entity with more structure will demonstrate a more stable landscape and may provide a more attractive marketing platform to potential sponsors.
imho we shouldn't compare KeSPA with some US sports league. they are known for doing their own weird thing and don't care about the rest of the world ... at least in team - and motors sports. (don't want to be mean it's just like that)
in most countries and most sports you'll find one association as governing body for professional as well as amateur leagues without business in mind. a monopoly without profit. and in most countries they'll even follow the rules of some international federation.
if KeSPA is run like eg. the korean football association we shouldn't worry about this stuff. they might be slow and do dump things but i can't believe they want to mess with their players.
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They have some big ambitions with how they are changing. They are changing in a good way though. Just gotta wait and see how it plays out.
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I think its good for the Non-famous eSF players to have a Huge proleague, GSTL all-kill format kinda limits the potential of other players to play on booth.
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On August 29 2013 09:22 a3den wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 08:25 Assirra wrote:On August 29 2013 03:27 a3den wrote:
So KeSPA new dictator had his friends pass a bill so they would be relevant again ? I really really despise the way koreans do shit. hahaha, did you really just said that koreans are the only one doing these kind of stuff? No they aren't the only ones, far from it. Also, I wrote "dictator" but I meant "director". Quite the freudian slip there... What I hate about this : if PL is not worth it for foreign teams (as EGTL learnt us), and eSF teams go to KeSPA for LoL, then the only possibility is that foreign teams play in GSTL with the few korean teams remaining in eSF. So from our pov (the foreign audience), the best competitive league (arguably) ends with the worst broadcaster (hello SpoTV) and the best broadcaster with a second tier league. And still, another individual league is needed because cash prizes opportunities for SK players are mostly GSL and that's clearly not enough given the numbers of pro in SK.
You forgot OSL on individual leagues. Too bad Blizzard decided it was a good idea to not allow GSL and OSL to happen simultaneously.
At the end, proper team sponsorship and salaries are more important for the sustainability of the scene than cash prizes. So having a strengthened Proleague is a good thing. Maybe it will be possible for eSF teams to find more committed sponsors. Unless you want the Korean scene to go back a decade like in the days of GO, POS, KOR, and the like.
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What if the GSTL merged into PL, but Gom handled the all-kill rounds?
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Is the hate for kespa trolling or what?
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This sucks. Now KeSPA is going to be a commoners association instead of a professional organization.
Imagine if the NBA was now supposed to start taking in any team. What utter bullshit.
Ofc NBA and KeSPA have there differences, but the point is that is an effort that KeSPA shouldn't have to out in.
Some ideas regarding this are cool. Now GOMTV can join KeSPA and run its own league and have its own rights instead of worrying about being screwed. But at the same time, this isn't even necessarily a problem solver.
Is the GSL and OSL going to keep swapping turns running WCS?
In the end GOM is likely to be reduced to a side tournament organizer and mainly just a broadcasting company.
KeSPA should have just stayed a professional entity. Some of eSF would have joined KeSPA soon anyways (most likely).
Call me old fashioned, but I loved the ideas of having pro gamer licenses etc. making a district differentiation between semi pro gamers and PRO gamers. Being able to focus on the main stories and being able to build them up and really celebrate them instead of having to spread the love to everyone in order to give unearned "equal opportunity" and take away from the most important aspects of professional gaming.
Now more progaming teams will be supported by the players organization called KeSPA, but they'll be much less significant so it won't make much of a real difference.
Instead of this, a global eSPA should have been formed and KeSPA should have been on it as a member.
W/e, I'm an old KeSPA fanboy. Still hope for the best for eSports, but a bit of my fire died today with this tragic event.
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On August 29 2013 03:32 Kal_rA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 02:58 BisuDagger wrote:1. KeSPA will open its doors to all organizations currently active in the South Korean eSports industry; Can't wait to see them promoting the Sonic Starleague. This is great news for Brood War and secretly I know this is why this whole thing went down. Hahaha please you know as well as I do Kespa isn't one to admit mistakes and reverse decisions on a whim. This is probably aimed at only at sc2 and lol. Wishful thinking  I just want bisu to retire and dominate SSL
Unfortunately Jangbi's retirement means Bisu has no shot at SSL.
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I suppose we will see how it goes.
Not a lot to say about it yet. Could be good or bad, imo.
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EPT
