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On July 26 2013 12:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 12:05 mikumegurine wrote:On July 26 2013 12:03 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 12:00 mikumegurine wrote:On July 26 2013 11:56 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 11:48 Assirra wrote:On July 26 2013 11:42 mikumegurine wrote:On July 26 2013 11:34 endy wrote:On July 26 2013 11:06 mikumegurine wrote:On July 26 2013 11:03 Doodsmack wrote:
Clearly it was foreseeable by iG and Jim that he wouldn't be able to apply for a visa until after qualifying for the Ro16. It's questionable whether he should even sign up for the tournament under these conditions. He basically took a gamble that he'd be able to play in the Ro16 and beyond. why not make reservations for plane ticket and apply for visa 8 months in advance? if you dont make it into round of 16, then just cancel the plane ticket? Read the thread. You just can't show up at the US embassy "Hi I may qualify in 6 month for a video game competition in the US, give me a visa pretty please" ... what? why cant you apply for a visa 6 months in advance to go sightseeing in US? it doesnt matter whether you make it into the round of 16 or not, apply for Visa anyway simply say," I have bought tickets for a trip to US in 8 months, for sightseeing and meeting friends, I want to apply for a non-immigrant visa." only time they reject someone from sightseeing, if if you have a criminal record or some other stuff like that Why cant someone just apply for a visa to visit friends in US? The first thing that one needs to set before even attempting to go to the States is to have a purpose for going there in the first place. That purpose has to be extremely clear at the outset and should answer these four basic questions:1. What are you going to do in the US? meet my friends, and compete in a tournament for a few days/week 2. How long will you be staying there? few days/week 3. Who is paying for your expenses? myself and my team company that I represent 4. And most importantly, When are you coming back? after a few days/week on "etc etc date" So basically lie your ass off... Edit: you changed your post cause there was nothing about playing in a tournament first but just outright lying your are going only to sightsee. Yes, because lieing to USCIS is a GREAT idea. I am sure they will let you back in for Season 3. "Hey guys, going sight seeing again. What? This mouse and keyboard? That's for sight seeing. Wait, you want do you mean I have to come with you? Where?" I am sure that will work out. Its not lying just vacation, you cant go to US for vacation? and okay, if you want to tell them you play video games tournament, whats so bad about that? you think they will deny you because you told them you are going to US for a videogame tournament?the main reason they deny people is if they have criminal records or seem like they want to say in US forever Many people travel to EVOLUTION video game tournament each year in US, i dont know exactly what they tell the US consulars, but they are going for a video game tournament, and they get their visa accepted (which they apply for like atleast 8 months in advance) Once again, you don't know what you are talking about. There are people who are better informed and the difficulties of traveling form China who have said the process takes months and you can't apply until you have evidence as to what you are doing. He can't say "I'm going sightseeing", they will just deny in visa request. Stop posting when you don't know what your talking about. Dude do you know what you are talking about? you think its hard to get a non-immigrant visa for traveling purpose if you do it 8 months in advance? its only hard if you want till the last minute so basically you are saying noone can go to US? yes the process can take months, that why you start very early, no matter if you are in top 16 or not, start applying early, just say you are going to video game tournament No I am saying people from CHINA can't come to the US whenever they please. They need to have a reason and it can't be "sight seeing". Read the read, people from China will confirm this. The US has very poor relations with China and they don't let anyone come over for whatever reason they want.
Its nothing to do the poor relationship, if the relationship does count, why US citizens can easliy grant China Visa, or just the "poor relationship" comes from one side~~LOL
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On July 26 2013 14:38 quest_5692 wrote:
mikumegurine has no fucking clue about applying visa from china to USA. listen to what the chinese says. I'm from Asia as well and its hard as fuck to get a US Visa. its not like i have money and i can pop over for sightseeing. worse for chinese.
as above mentioned, he is going to US to work, to win money, to take money away from USA citizens. not to splurge on vacation and help stimulate your economy by buying prada and LV.
btw, chinese LoL players have no such problem because Riot made those progamers their staff, a business invite is another case, its much easier. because Riot becomes their company sponsor and will be responsible for all the chinese players doing in USA (pay for their travel, accomm, salary, and even to answer if they flee and become illegal immigrant) . its something blizzard will never do.
EDIT: also just like students, you can't apply for a visa 8 months in advance saying that, I applied for Harvard, I MIGHT make it into Harvard so just give me my visa. see, i have money to study in harvard, i am sure harvard wants me too, so give me the damn visa. it doesnt work this way.........you have to wait for the official admission letter (or official employment letter for a job in USA) then only you can start applying.
I had heard the story that a student applied Harvard Univeristy for his PHD. And during the interview with the Visa Officer, He asked the student to talk about his graduated paper of the Master Degree. Talk about the professor who will mentor him in Harvard, and asked for the public journal if he had, and then asked "do you married?" WOW， you are single, you can't go to USA. Vias rejected.
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On July 26 2013 11:03 Doodsmack wrote:
Clearly it was foreseeable by iG and Jim that he wouldn't be able to apply for a visa until after qualifying for the Ro16. It's questionable whether he should even sign up for the tournament under these conditions. He basically took a gamble that he'd be able to play in the Ro16 and beyond.
Its all arranged by the manager of iG, but IEM start 2 hours late than it should be.
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I had refrained from posting in this thread because I assumed most people already understood some of the most obvious factors related to this case, but apparently I was wrong, so I want to point out some things that really should be taken into consideration.
Getting a visa into the U.S. is difficult for a lot of reasons, and it's not because the U.S. is some "big, bad wolf" trying to eat the dreams of young Chinese. The first and foremost reason why it's so difficult for Chinese to get a visa to the U.S. is because of the insanely high volume of people from China trying to go to the U.S. every single day. You wonder why they had to wait in line for almost 3 hours? Go check out the nearest U.S. consulate when you're in China. See how many people are out there (coincidentally, I was at the one in Guangzhou 2 days ago. Wasn't pretty.). Whether they love it or hate it, for rational reasons or irrational reasons, mainland Chinese are absolutely obsessed with the U.S., and it's not hard to see once you've spent any significant time living here. For many Chinese, it's their ultimate dream to go to the U.S., whether it be for studying, traveling, or whatever. There are a lot of factors at play, but the end result is you have an insanely high volume of Chinese trying to immigrate or get visas every day. It's unfortunate, but some people have to get denied. When there are so many applying, sometimes the reasons may seem a bit arbitrary, sure. But there aren't a lot of alternatives, and one has to remember, at the end of the day, these officers have to do what's best for their country. To expect them not to act in such a way would be quite ignorant, and in some cases even hypocritical, I think.
If you doubt any of the above, do a little experiment. Go check out other consulates in China, and see what they're like. Then go back to the U.S. consulate. The differences are extraordinary. Just for reference, the other day I visited 3 separate consulates (Indian, Russian, and U.S.) in the same day, and the Indian and Russian ones were essentially empty. Relatively small, inside office buildings. The U.S. one however was huge, and yet there were still Chinese lined up all the way around the block, in two separate lines. That should help put things in perspective a bit.
It's also quite ignorant to assume that this is simply because of politics, or that the U.S. is just bullying Chinese. There are a LOT of Chinese in the U.S., and there have been for a very long time. As a whole they aren't being denied, there's just so many of them trying to immigrate. You also have to remember that there are a lot of them that really do try to lie and overstay their visa. As an immigration officer, you have to use your best judgement to prevent such issues, and that's not something you can get down to an accurate science. The U.S. is also far from the only country that Chinese have issues getting into, it's just understandably more difficult.
Finally, I just want to point out that plenty of Chinese that DON'T have family in the U.S. have no trouble traveling there for short times, even for work. There are a lot of factors involved, but the most important ones are that you can show you have money and/or a stable job, and that you have a reason to return to China. If you give them any reason to question those things, or if you're unclear about what exactly your purpose is, don't be surprised if you get denied. It's unfortunate, but consider all of the factors at play before you get too up into arms over the issue.
Either way, the situation with Jim is quite unfortunate. He may have done everything he was supposed to and had bad luck. It's sad, but it seems the entire thing wasn't planned very well. He may not have been able to provide proof of his reasoning before knowing he could compete in America, BUT he very well could have begun the process long before so that if he qualified he'd be more than ready. You don't need all of your documents to start scheduling appointments and preparing. Regardless of the preparation, it's still unfortunate, but you have to remember why this sort of thing happens. A young Chinese male going to the U.S. for a short term to essentially play video games isn't exactly the most solid of reasons for visiting, and isn't exactly the most convincing argument to an immigration officer, whether your family is wealthy or not. Don't forget, plenty of people have tried to cheat the system before (especially Chinese). Blame them, not the ones who are responsible for preventing it.
Anyway I'm not claiming to be an expert on visa-related issues with the U.S., but I have lived in China for a hell of a lot longer than a year, I have many friends here who have gone through these experiences, and I have a background in areas far more valuable than a degree in Chinese from the U.S. (not to be condescending, but a student who's learned even just 6 months of Chinese in China will be way ahead of a recent graduate with a Chinese degree from the U.S.), and these are all things I've witnessed and dealt with quite often (they aren't just random thoughts). Whether there are other factors at play or not is arguable for sure, but I can guarantee you that the things I mentioned here are absolutely relevant, and it seems most people aren't taking them into consideration when they really need to. You have to look at the bigger picture, not just what you see from the relatively isolated world of StarCraft 2.
Regardless, I hope everything works out for the Chinese players and I'd absolutely love to see them succeed. These unfortunate incidents will happen, and maybe it is best to move WCS America to a more neutral location, but we mustn't forget to look at the bigger picture when these things happen. Otherwise we're only moving further away from legitimizing this sort of thing in the eyes of the rest of the world.
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Thats what you get with no requirement to live in the region where you participate.
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On July 26 2013 18:36 Orlandu wrote:
I had refrained from posting in this thread because I assumed most people already understood some of the most obvious factors related to this case, but apparently I was wrong, so I want to point out some things that really should be taken into consideration.
Getting a visa into the U.S. is difficult for a lot of reasons, and it's not because the U.S. is some "big, bad wolf" trying to eat the dreams of young Chinese. The first and foremost reason why it's so difficult for Chinese to get a visa to the U.S. is because of the insanely high volume of people from China trying to go to the U.S. every single day. You wonder why they had to wait in line for almost 3 hours? Go check out the nearest U.S. consulate when you're in China. See how many people are out there (coincidentally, I was at the one in Guangzhou 2 days ago. Wasn't pretty.). Whether they love it or hate it, for rational reasons or irrational reasons, mainland Chinese are absolutely obsessed with the U.S., and it's not hard to see once you've spent any significant time living here. For many Chinese, it's their ultimate dream to go to the U.S., whether it be for studying, traveling, or whatever. There are a lot of factors at play, but the end result is you have an insanely high volume of Chinese trying to immigrate or get visas every day. It's unfortunate, but some people have to get denied. When there are so many applying, sometimes the reasons may seem a bit arbitrary, sure. But there aren't a lot of alternatives, and one has to remember, at the end of the day, these officers have to do what's best for their country. To expect them not to act in such a way would be quite ignorant, and in some cases even hypocritical, I think.
If you doubt any of the above, do a little experiment. Go check out other consulates in China, and see what they're like. Then go back to the U.S. consulate. The differences are extraordinary. Just for reference, the other day I visited 3 separate consulates (Indian, Russian, and U.S.) in the same day, and the Indian and Russian ones were essentially empty. Relatively small, inside office buildings. The U.S. one however was huge, and yet there were still Chinese lined up all the way around the block, in two separate lines. That should help put things in perspective a bit.
It's also quite ignorant to assume that this is simply because of politics, or that the U.S. is just bullying Chinese. There are a LOT of Chinese in the U.S., and there have been for a very long time. As a whole they aren't being denied, there's just so many of them trying to immigrate. You also have to remember that there are a lot of them that really do try to lie and overstay their visa. As an immigration officer, you have to use your best judgement to prevent such issues, and that's not something you can get down to an accurate science. The U.S. is also far from the only country that Chinese have issues getting into, it's just understandably more difficult.
Finally, I just want to point out that plenty of Chinese that DON'T have family in the U.S. have no trouble traveling there for short times, even for work. There are a lot of factors involved, but the most important ones are that you can show you have money and/or a stable job, and that you have a reason to return to China. If you give them any reason to question those things, or if you're unclear about what exactly your purpose is, don't be surprised if you get denied. It's unfortunate, but consider all of the factors at play before you get too up into arms over the issue.
Either way, the situation with Jim is quite unfortunate. He may have done everything he was supposed to and had bad luck. It's sad, but it seems the entire thing wasn't planned very well. He may not have been able to provide proof of his reasoning before knowing he could compete in America, BUT he very well could have begun the process long before so that if he qualified he'd be more than ready. You don't need all of your documents to start scheduling appointments and preparing. Regardless of the preparation, it's still unfortunate, but you have to remember why this sort of thing happens. A young Chinese male going to the U.S. for a short term to essentially play video games isn't exactly the most solid of reasons for visiting, and isn't exactly the most convincing argument to an immigration officer, whether your family is wealthy or not. Don't forget, plenty of people have tried to cheat the system before (especially Chinese). Blame them, not the ones who are responsible for preventing it.
Anyway I'm not claiming to be an expert on visa-related issues with the U.S., but I have lived in China for a hell of a lot longer than a year, I have many friends here who have gone through these experiences, and I have a background in areas far more valuable than a degree in Chinese from the U.S. (not to be condescending, but a student who's learned even just 6 months of Chinese in China will be way ahead of a recent graduate with a Chinese degree from the U.S.), and these are all things I've witnessed and dealt with quite often (they aren't just random thoughts). Whether there are other factors at play or not is arguable for sure, but I can guarantee you that the things I mentioned here are absolutely relevant, and it seems most people aren't taking them into consideration when they really need to. You have to look at the bigger picture, not just what you see from the relatively isolated world of StarCraft 2.
Regardless, I hope everything works out for the Chinese players and I'd absolutely love to see them succeed. These unfortunate incidents will happen, and maybe it is best to move WCS America to a more neutral location, but we mustn't forget to look at the bigger picture when these things happen. Otherwise we're only moving further away from legitimizing this sort of thing in the eyes of the rest of the world.
A really nice thought out post explaining the situation to those unfamiliar. 5/5 eSports.
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On July 26 2013 18:36 Orlandu wrote:
I had refrained from posting in this thread because I assumed most people already understood some of the most obvious factors related to this case, but apparently I was wrong, so I want to point out some things that really should be taken into consideration.
Getting a visa into the U.S. is difficult for a lot of reasons, and it's not because the U.S. is some "big, bad wolf" trying to eat the dreams of young Chinese. The first and foremost reason why it's so difficult for Chinese to get a visa to the U.S. is because of the insanely high volume of people from China trying to go to the U.S. every single day. You wonder why they had to wait in line for almost 3 hours? Go check out the nearest U.S. consulate when you're in China. See how many people are out there (coincidentally, I was at the one in Guangzhou 2 days ago. Wasn't pretty.). Whether they love it or hate it, for rational reasons or irrational reasons, mainland Chinese are absolutely obsessed with the U.S., and it's not hard to see once you've spent any significant time living here. For many Chinese, it's their ultimate dream to go to the U.S., whether it be for studying, traveling, or whatever. There are a lot of factors at play, but the end result is you have an insanely high volume of Chinese trying to immigrate or get visas every day. It's unfortunate, but some people have to get denied. When there are so many applying, sometimes the reasons may seem a bit arbitrary, sure. But there aren't a lot of alternatives, and one has to remember, at the end of the day, these officers have to do what's best for their country. To expect them not to act in such a way would be quite ignorant, and in some cases even hypocritical, I think.
If you doubt any of the above, do a little experiment. Go check out other consulates in China, and see what they're like. Then go back to the U.S. consulate. The differences are extraordinary. Just for reference, the other day I visited 3 separate consulates (Indian, Russian, and U.S.) in the same day, and the Indian and Russian ones were essentially empty. Relatively small, inside office buildings. The U.S. one however was huge, and yet there were still Chinese lined up all the way around the block, in two separate lines. That should help put things in perspective a bit.
It's also quite ignorant to assume that this is simply because of politics, or that the U.S. is just bullying Chinese. There are a LOT of Chinese in the U.S., and there have been for a very long time. As a whole they aren't being denied, there's just so many of them trying to immigrate. You also have to remember that there are a lot of them that really do try to lie and overstay their visa. As an immigration officer, you have to use your best judgement to prevent such issues, and that's not something you can get down to an accurate science. The U.S. is also far from the only country that Chinese have issues getting into, it's just understandably more difficult.
Finally, I just want to point out that plenty of Chinese that DON'T have family in the U.S. have no trouble traveling there for short times, even for work. There are a lot of factors involved, but the most important ones are that you can show you have money and/or a stable job, and that you have a reason to return to China. If you give them any reason to question those things, or if you're unclear about what exactly your purpose is, don't be surprised if you get denied. It's unfortunate, but consider all of the factors at play before you get too up into arms over the issue.
Either way, the situation with Jim is quite unfortunate. He may have done everything he was supposed to and had bad luck. It's sad, but it seems the entire thing wasn't planned very well. He may not have been able to provide proof of his reasoning before knowing he could compete in America, BUT he very well could have begun the process long before so that if he qualified he'd be more than ready. You don't need all of your documents to start scheduling appointments and preparing. Regardless of the preparation, it's still unfortunate, but you have to remember why this sort of thing happens. A young Chinese male going to the U.S. for a short term to essentially play video games isn't exactly the most solid of reasons for visiting, and isn't exactly the most convincing argument to an immigration officer, whether your family is wealthy or not. Don't forget, plenty of people have tried to cheat the system before (especially Chinese). Blame them, not the ones who are responsible for preventing it.
Anyway I'm not claiming to be an expert on visa-related issues with the U.S., but I have lived in China for a hell of a lot longer than a year, I have many friends here who have gone through these experiences, and I have a background in areas far more valuable than a degree in Chinese from the U.S. (not to be condescending, but a student who's learned even just 6 months of Chinese in China will be way ahead of a recent graduate with a Chinese degree from the U.S.), and these are all things I've witnessed and dealt with quite often (they aren't just random thoughts). Whether there are other factors at play or not is arguable for sure, but I can guarantee you that the things I mentioned here are absolutely relevant, and it seems most people aren't taking them into consideration when they really need to. You have to look at the bigger picture, not just what you see from the relatively isolated world of StarCraft 2.
Regardless, I hope everything works out for the Chinese players and I'd absolutely love to see them succeed. These unfortunate incidents will happen, and maybe it is best to move WCS America to a more neutral location, but we mustn't forget to look at the bigger picture when these things happen. Otherwise we're only moving further away from legitimizing this sort of thing in the eyes of the rest of the world.
But shouldn't Jim, unlike the vast majority of the Chinese applying for visa, have the backing of Activision / Blizzard, a huge American company?
And depending on what you understand under "cheating", I certainly won't blame the Chinese for trying to cheat the system (though they are at fault). Same like I won't blame companies for abusing tax loopholes, but rather for the government of not fixing the situation.
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On July 26 2013 19:27 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 18:36 Orlandu wrote:
I had refrained from posting in this thread because I assumed most people already understood some of the most obvious factors related to this case, but apparently I was wrong, so I want to point out some things that really should be taken into consideration.
Getting a visa into the U.S. is difficult for a lot of reasons, and it's not because the U.S. is some "big, bad wolf" trying to eat the dreams of young Chinese. The first and foremost reason why it's so difficult for Chinese to get a visa to the U.S. is because of the insanely high volume of people from China trying to go to the U.S. every single day. You wonder why they had to wait in line for almost 3 hours? Go check out the nearest U.S. consulate when you're in China. See how many people are out there (coincidentally, I was at the one in Guangzhou 2 days ago. Wasn't pretty.). Whether they love it or hate it, for rational reasons or irrational reasons, mainland Chinese are absolutely obsessed with the U.S., and it's not hard to see once you've spent any significant time living here. For many Chinese, it's their ultimate dream to go to the U.S., whether it be for studying, traveling, or whatever. There are a lot of factors at play, but the end result is you have an insanely high volume of Chinese trying to immigrate or get visas every day. It's unfortunate, but some people have to get denied. When there are so many applying, sometimes the reasons may seem a bit arbitrary, sure. But there aren't a lot of alternatives, and one has to remember, at the end of the day, these officers have to do what's best for their country. To expect them not to act in such a way would be quite ignorant, and in some cases even hypocritical, I think.
If you doubt any of the above, do a little experiment. Go check out other consulates in China, and see what they're like. Then go back to the U.S. consulate. The differences are extraordinary. Just for reference, the other day I visited 3 separate consulates (Indian, Russian, and U.S.) in the same day, and the Indian and Russian ones were essentially empty. Relatively small, inside office buildings. The U.S. one however was huge, and yet there were still Chinese lined up all the way around the block, in two separate lines. That should help put things in perspective a bit.
It's also quite ignorant to assume that this is simply because of politics, or that the U.S. is just bullying Chinese. There are a LOT of Chinese in the U.S., and there have been for a very long time. As a whole they aren't being denied, there's just so many of them trying to immigrate. You also have to remember that there are a lot of them that really do try to lie and overstay their visa. As an immigration officer, you have to use your best judgement to prevent such issues, and that's not something you can get down to an accurate science. The U.S. is also far from the only country that Chinese have issues getting into, it's just understandably more difficult.
Finally, I just want to point out that plenty of Chinese that DON'T have family in the U.S. have no trouble traveling there for short times, even for work. There are a lot of factors involved, but the most important ones are that you can show you have money and/or a stable job, and that you have a reason to return to China. If you give them any reason to question those things, or if you're unclear about what exactly your purpose is, don't be surprised if you get denied. It's unfortunate, but consider all of the factors at play before you get too up into arms over the issue.
Either way, the situation with Jim is quite unfortunate. He may have done everything he was supposed to and had bad luck. It's sad, but it seems the entire thing wasn't planned very well. He may not have been able to provide proof of his reasoning before knowing he could compete in America, BUT he very well could have begun the process long before so that if he qualified he'd be more than ready. You don't need all of your documents to start scheduling appointments and preparing. Regardless of the preparation, it's still unfortunate, but you have to remember why this sort of thing happens. A young Chinese male going to the U.S. for a short term to essentially play video games isn't exactly the most solid of reasons for visiting, and isn't exactly the most convincing argument to an immigration officer, whether your family is wealthy or not. Don't forget, plenty of people have tried to cheat the system before (especially Chinese). Blame them, not the ones who are responsible for preventing it.
Anyway I'm not claiming to be an expert on visa-related issues with the U.S., but I have lived in China for a hell of a lot longer than a year, I have many friends here who have gone through these experiences, and I have a background in areas far more valuable than a degree in Chinese from the U.S. (not to be condescending, but a student who's learned even just 6 months of Chinese in China will be way ahead of a recent graduate with a Chinese degree from the U.S.), and these are all things I've witnessed and dealt with quite often (they aren't just random thoughts). Whether there are other factors at play or not is arguable for sure, but I can guarantee you that the things I mentioned here are absolutely relevant, and it seems most people aren't taking them into consideration when they really need to. You have to look at the bigger picture, not just what you see from the relatively isolated world of StarCraft 2.
Regardless, I hope everything works out for the Chinese players and I'd absolutely love to see them succeed. These unfortunate incidents will happen, and maybe it is best to move WCS America to a more neutral location, but we mustn't forget to look at the bigger picture when these things happen. Otherwise we're only moving further away from legitimizing this sort of thing in the eyes of the rest of the world. But shouldn't Jim, unlike the vast majority of the Chinese applying for visa, have the backing of Activision / Blizzard, a huge American company? And depending on what you understand under "cheating", I certainly won't blame the Chinese for trying to cheat the system (though they are at fault). Same like I won't blame companies for abusing tax loopholes, but rather for the government of not fixing the situation.
I think there's a big difference between the two situations you mention - cheating the immigration system here involves lying, while abusing a tax loophole is taking advantage of someone's mistake. Personally I think that's the difference between taking a 5 dollar bill from someone else versus picking it up off the floor.
More on topic, even if Jim has the backing of Activision/Blizzard, he may still have difficulties getting the visa on such short notice. I think expecting Blizzard to take charge of sponsoring people is unreasonable - it may help when entering the US, but then people will expect Blizzard's help when getting visas to the season finals in Europe, and so on. There are plenty of competitions in the world that count on the entrant to take care of transportation and visas.
Also, not to be a conspiracy theorist but everyone seems to assume that Blizzard really wants to help Jim and Macsed make it to the WCS Ro16. Not to say that they'd actually prevent them from competing, but given how much flak Blizzard has gotten for not having enough NA players in WCS NA, I'm sure they wouldn't miss the Chinese players the way they might miss Hero or something.
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On July 26 2013 19:27 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 18:36 Orlandu wrote:
I had refrained from posting in this thread because I assumed most people already understood some of the most obvious factors related to this case, but apparently I was wrong, so I want to point out some things that really should be taken into consideration.
Getting a visa into the U.S. is difficult for a lot of reasons, and it's not because the U.S. is some "big, bad wolf" trying to eat the dreams of young Chinese. The first and foremost reason why it's so difficult for Chinese to get a visa to the U.S. is because of the insanely high volume of people from China trying to go to the U.S. every single day. You wonder why they had to wait in line for almost 3 hours? Go check out the nearest U.S. consulate when you're in China. See how many people are out there (coincidentally, I was at the one in Guangzhou 2 days ago. Wasn't pretty.). Whether they love it or hate it, for rational reasons or irrational reasons, mainland Chinese are absolutely obsessed with the U.S., and it's not hard to see once you've spent any significant time living here. For many Chinese, it's their ultimate dream to go to the U.S., whether it be for studying, traveling, or whatever. There are a lot of factors at play, but the end result is you have an insanely high volume of Chinese trying to immigrate or get visas every day. It's unfortunate, but some people have to get denied. When there are so many applying, sometimes the reasons may seem a bit arbitrary, sure. But there aren't a lot of alternatives, and one has to remember, at the end of the day, these officers have to do what's best for their country. To expect them not to act in such a way would be quite ignorant, and in some cases even hypocritical, I think.
If you doubt any of the above, do a little experiment. Go check out other consulates in China, and see what they're like. Then go back to the U.S. consulate. The differences are extraordinary. Just for reference, the other day I visited 3 separate consulates (Indian, Russian, and U.S.) in the same day, and the Indian and Russian ones were essentially empty. Relatively small, inside office buildings. The U.S. one however was huge, and yet there were still Chinese lined up all the way around the block, in two separate lines. That should help put things in perspective a bit.
It's also quite ignorant to assume that this is simply because of politics, or that the U.S. is just bullying Chinese. There are a LOT of Chinese in the U.S., and there have been for a very long time. As a whole they aren't being denied, there's just so many of them trying to immigrate. You also have to remember that there are a lot of them that really do try to lie and overstay their visa. As an immigration officer, you have to use your best judgement to prevent such issues, and that's not something you can get down to an accurate science. The U.S. is also far from the only country that Chinese have issues getting into, it's just understandably more difficult.
Finally, I just want to point out that plenty of Chinese that DON'T have family in the U.S. have no trouble traveling there for short times, even for work. There are a lot of factors involved, but the most important ones are that you can show you have money and/or a stable job, and that you have a reason to return to China. If you give them any reason to question those things, or if you're unclear about what exactly your purpose is, don't be surprised if you get denied. It's unfortunate, but consider all of the factors at play before you get too up into arms over the issue.
Either way, the situation with Jim is quite unfortunate. He may have done everything he was supposed to and had bad luck. It's sad, but it seems the entire thing wasn't planned very well. He may not have been able to provide proof of his reasoning before knowing he could compete in America, BUT he very well could have begun the process long before so that if he qualified he'd be more than ready. You don't need all of your documents to start scheduling appointments and preparing. Regardless of the preparation, it's still unfortunate, but you have to remember why this sort of thing happens. A young Chinese male going to the U.S. for a short term to essentially play video games isn't exactly the most solid of reasons for visiting, and isn't exactly the most convincing argument to an immigration officer, whether your family is wealthy or not. Don't forget, plenty of people have tried to cheat the system before (especially Chinese). Blame them, not the ones who are responsible for preventing it.
Anyway I'm not claiming to be an expert on visa-related issues with the U.S., but I have lived in China for a hell of a lot longer than a year, I have many friends here who have gone through these experiences, and I have a background in areas far more valuable than a degree in Chinese from the U.S. (not to be condescending, but a student who's learned even just 6 months of Chinese in China will be way ahead of a recent graduate with a Chinese degree from the U.S.), and these are all things I've witnessed and dealt with quite often (they aren't just random thoughts). Whether there are other factors at play or not is arguable for sure, but I can guarantee you that the things I mentioned here are absolutely relevant, and it seems most people aren't taking them into consideration when they really need to. You have to look at the bigger picture, not just what you see from the relatively isolated world of StarCraft 2.
Regardless, I hope everything works out for the Chinese players and I'd absolutely love to see them succeed. These unfortunate incidents will happen, and maybe it is best to move WCS America to a more neutral location, but we mustn't forget to look at the bigger picture when these things happen. Otherwise we're only moving further away from legitimizing this sort of thing in the eyes of the rest of the world. But shouldn't Jim, unlike the vast majority of the Chinese applying for visa, have the backing of Activision / Blizzard, a huge American company? And depending on what you understand under "cheating", I certainly won't blame the Chinese for trying to cheat the system (though they are at fault). Same like I won't blame companies for abusing tax loopholes, but rather for the government of not fixing the situation.
They have a invite from Blizzard, but they don't work for them, which makes it iffy. Also, Blizzard is a TINY company as these things go. They are just more relevant to us because they make video games and we play them. So when Blizzard saying "we don't REALLY know them, but they are good at this game and we'd like them over for a event" it is not terribly impressive to a Visa officer.
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isn't IEM shanghai in shanghai? how does visas effect him, the chinese guy?
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On July 26 2013 20:39 Cubu wrote:
isn't IEM shanghai in shanghai? how does visas effect him, the chinese guy?
He left IEM to get a Visa for WCS AM. Ddin't get back in time for his match and was disqualified.
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On July 26 2013 18:36 Orlandu wrote:
I had refrained from posting in this thread because I assumed most people already understood some of the most obvious factors related to this case, but apparently I was wrong, so I want to point out some things that really should be taken into consideration.
Getting a visa into the U.S. is difficult for a lot of reasons, and it's not because the U.S. is some "big, bad wolf" trying to eat the dreams of young Chinese. The first and foremost reason why it's so difficult for Chinese to get a visa to the U.S. is because of the insanely high volume of people from China trying to go to the U.S. every single day. You wonder why they had to wait in line for almost 3 hours? Go check out the nearest U.S. consulate when you're in China. See how many people are out there (coincidentally, I was at the one in Guangzhou 2 days ago. Wasn't pretty.). Whether they love it or hate it, for rational reasons or irrational reasons, mainland Chinese are absolutely obsessed with the U.S., and it's not hard to see once you've spent any significant time living here. For many Chinese, it's their ultimate dream to go to the U.S., whether it be for studying, traveling, or whatever. There are a lot of factors at play, but the end result is you have an insanely high volume of Chinese trying to immigrate or get visas every day. It's unfortunate, but some people have to get denied. When there are so many applying, sometimes the reasons may seem a bit arbitrary, sure. But there aren't a lot of alternatives, and one has to remember, at the end of the day, these officers have to do what's best for their country. To expect them not to act in such a way would be quite ignorant, and in some cases even hypocritical, I think.
If you doubt any of the above, do a little experiment. Go check out other consulates in China, and see what they're like. Then go back to the U.S. consulate. The differences are extraordinary. Just for reference, the other day I visited 3 separate consulates (Indian, Russian, and U.S.) in the same day, and the Indian and Russian ones were essentially empty. Relatively small, inside office buildings. The U.S. one however was huge, and yet there were still Chinese lined up all the way around the block, in two separate lines. That should help put things in perspective a bit.
It's also quite ignorant to assume that this is simply because of politics, or that the U.S. is just bullying Chinese. There are a LOT of Chinese in the U.S., and there have been for a very long time. As a whole they aren't being denied, there's just so many of them trying to immigrate. You also have to remember that there are a lot of them that really do try to lie and overstay their visa. As an immigration officer, you have to use your best judgement to prevent such issues, and that's not something you can get down to an accurate science. The U.S. is also far from the only country that Chinese have issues getting into, it's just understandably more difficult.
Finally, I just want to point out that plenty of Chinese that DON'T have family in the U.S. have no trouble traveling there for short times, even for work. There are a lot of factors involved, but the most important ones are that you can show you have money and/or a stable job, and that you have a reason to return to China. If you give them any reason to question those things, or if you're unclear about what exactly your purpose is, don't be surprised if you get denied. It's unfortunate, but consider all of the factors at play before you get too up into arms over the issue.
Either way, the situation with Jim is quite unfortunate. He may have done everything he was supposed to and had bad luck. It's sad, but it seems the entire thing wasn't planned very well. He may not have been able to provide proof of his reasoning before knowing he could compete in America, BUT he very well could have begun the process long before so that if he qualified he'd be more than ready. You don't need all of your documents to start scheduling appointments and preparing. Regardless of the preparation, it's still unfortunate, but you have to remember why this sort of thing happens. A young Chinese male going to the U.S. for a short term to essentially play video games isn't exactly the most solid of reasons for visiting, and isn't exactly the most convincing argument to an immigration officer, whether your family is wealthy or not. Don't forget, plenty of people have tried to cheat the system before (especially Chinese). Blame them, not the ones who are responsible for preventing it.
Anyway I'm not claiming to be an expert on visa-related issues with the U.S., but I have lived in China for a hell of a lot longer than a year, I have many friends here who have gone through these experiences, and I have a background in areas far more valuable than a degree in Chinese from the U.S. (not to be condescending, but a student who's learned even just 6 months of Chinese in China will be way ahead of a recent graduate with a Chinese degree from the U.S.), and these are all things I've witnessed and dealt with quite often (they aren't just random thoughts). Whether there are other factors at play or not is arguable for sure, but I can guarantee you that the things I mentioned here are absolutely relevant, and it seems most people aren't taking them into consideration when they really need to. You have to look at the bigger picture, not just what you see from the relatively isolated world of StarCraft 2.
Regardless, I hope everything works out for the Chinese players and I'd absolutely love to see them succeed. These unfortunate incidents will happen, and maybe it is best to move WCS America to a more neutral location, but we mustn't forget to look at the bigger picture when these things happen. Otherwise we're only moving further away from legitimizing this sort of thing in the eyes of the rest of the world.
Thank you!!
You did my work. As i read the thread, i thought that i had to write this wall of text...
It is NOT ALWAYS the bad and asshole goverments on the one side and the poor and rightousness people on the other side. The big picture is way more complex in most cases.
I dont care about chinese players because of they are chinese, but i feel so bad for jim. I absolutly deserves his spot!
But Visa issues even come out for ukraine players in EU sometimes....very sad for the players and esports.
Maybe Blizzard can do something...given they want to do something...
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On July 26 2013 17:51 jalen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 12:08 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 12:05 mikumegurine wrote:On July 26 2013 12:03 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 12:00 mikumegurine wrote:On July 26 2013 11:56 Plansix wrote:On July 26 2013 11:48 Assirra wrote:On July 26 2013 11:42 mikumegurine wrote:On July 26 2013 11:34 endy wrote:On July 26 2013 11:06 mikumegurine wrote:
[quote]
why not make reservations for plane ticket and apply for visa 8 months in advance?
if you dont make it into round of 16, then just cancel the plane ticket? Read the thread. You just can't show up at the US embassy "Hi I may qualify in 6 month for a video game competition in the US, give me a visa pretty please" ... what? why cant you apply for a visa 6 months in advance to go sightseeing in US? it doesnt matter whether you make it into the round of 16 or not, apply for Visa anyway simply say," I have bought tickets for a trip to US in 8 months, for sightseeing and meeting friends, I want to apply for a non-immigrant visa." only time they reject someone from sightseeing, if if you have a criminal record or some other stuff like that Why cant someone just apply for a visa to visit friends in US? The first thing that one needs to set before even attempting to go to the States is to have a purpose for going there in the first place. That purpose has to be extremely clear at the outset and should answer these four basic questions:1. What are you going to do in the US? meet my friends, and compete in a tournament for a few days/week 2. How long will you be staying there? few days/week 3. Who is paying for your expenses? myself and my team company that I represent 4. And most importantly, When are you coming back? after a few days/week on "etc etc date" So basically lie your ass off... Edit: you changed your post cause there was nothing about playing in a tournament first but just outright lying your are going only to sightsee. Yes, because lieing to USCIS is a GREAT idea. I am sure they will let you back in for Season 3. "Hey guys, going sight seeing again. What? This mouse and keyboard? That's for sight seeing. Wait, you want do you mean I have to come with you? Where?" I am sure that will work out. Its not lying just vacation, you cant go to US for vacation? and okay, if you want to tell them you play video games tournament, whats so bad about that? you think they will deny you because you told them you are going to US for a videogame tournament?the main reason they deny people is if they have criminal records or seem like they want to say in US forever Many people travel to EVOLUTION video game tournament each year in US, i dont know exactly what they tell the US consulars, but they are going for a video game tournament, and they get their visa accepted (which they apply for like atleast 8 months in advance) Once again, you don't know what you are talking about. There are people who are better informed and the difficulties of traveling form China who have said the process takes months and you can't apply until you have evidence as to what you are doing. He can't say "I'm going sightseeing", they will just deny in visa request. Stop posting when you don't know what your talking about. Dude do you know what you are talking about? you think its hard to get a non-immigrant visa for traveling purpose if you do it 8 months in advance? its only hard if you want till the last minute so basically you are saying noone can go to US? yes the process can take months, that why you start very early, no matter if you are in top 16 or not, start applying early, just say you are going to video game tournament No I am saying people from CHINA can't come to the US whenever they please. They need to have a reason and it can't be "sight seeing". Read the read, people from China will confirm this. The US has very poor relations with China and they don't let anyone come over for whatever reason they want. Its nothing to do the poor relationship, if the relationship does count, why US citizens can easliy grant China Visa, or just the "poor relationship" comes from one side~~LOL
It's not a hard concept at all...............
one of the reasons is poor relationship.. For instance, one of my passports is Canadian and I can travel to 100+ countries and stay for 90 days without the need of a VISA, because all those countries are in good standings with Canada. China isn't one of them is obviously due to not so great political relations. And yes, it may be harder to get an US VISA from China because of the sheer number of people who would just land in the US and not leave. <- causes the relationship to worsen as well.
It's like the land border between the US and Mexico. When you drive into Mexico from the US, there's literally no guards there, you don't even have to stop for inspection, but when you return to the US, you get frisked.
Why? Mexico doesn't give a damn if you wanna enter, because ordinary murrican citizens wouldn't wanna smuggle there anyways. And the US? Mexicans try to smuggle to the US all the time, thus why it's harder to get into.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On July 26 2013 19:27 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 18:36 Orlandu wrote:
I had refrained from posting in this thread because I assumed most people already understood some of the most obvious factors related to this case, but apparently I was wrong, so I want to point out some things that really should be taken into consideration.
Getting a visa into the U.S. is difficult for a lot of reasons, and it's not because the U.S. is some "big, bad wolf" trying to eat the dreams of young Chinese. The first and foremost reason why it's so difficult for Chinese to get a visa to the U.S. is because of the insanely high volume of people from China trying to go to the U.S. every single day. You wonder why they had to wait in line for almost 3 hours? Go check out the nearest U.S. consulate when you're in China. See how many people are out there (coincidentally, I was at the one in Guangzhou 2 days ago. Wasn't pretty.). Whether they love it or hate it, for rational reasons or irrational reasons, mainland Chinese are absolutely obsessed with the U.S., and it's not hard to see once you've spent any significant time living here. For many Chinese, it's their ultimate dream to go to the U.S., whether it be for studying, traveling, or whatever. There are a lot of factors at play, but the end result is you have an insanely high volume of Chinese trying to immigrate or get visas every day. It's unfortunate, but some people have to get denied. When there are so many applying, sometimes the reasons may seem a bit arbitrary, sure. But there aren't a lot of alternatives, and one has to remember, at the end of the day, these officers have to do what's best for their country. To expect them not to act in such a way would be quite ignorant, and in some cases even hypocritical, I think.
If you doubt any of the above, do a little experiment. Go check out other consulates in China, and see what they're like. Then go back to the U.S. consulate. The differences are extraordinary. Just for reference, the other day I visited 3 separate consulates (Indian, Russian, and U.S.) in the same day, and the Indian and Russian ones were essentially empty. Relatively small, inside office buildings. The U.S. one however was huge, and yet there were still Chinese lined up all the way around the block, in two separate lines. That should help put things in perspective a bit.
It's also quite ignorant to assume that this is simply because of politics, or that the U.S. is just bullying Chinese. There are a LOT of Chinese in the U.S., and there have been for a very long time. As a whole they aren't being denied, there's just so many of them trying to immigrate. You also have to remember that there are a lot of them that really do try to lie and overstay their visa. As an immigration officer, you have to use your best judgement to prevent such issues, and that's not something you can get down to an accurate science. The U.S. is also far from the only country that Chinese have issues getting into, it's just understandably more difficult.
Finally, I just want to point out that plenty of Chinese that DON'T have family in the U.S. have no trouble traveling there for short times, even for work. There are a lot of factors involved, but the most important ones are that you can show you have money and/or a stable job, and that you have a reason to return to China. If you give them any reason to question those things, or if you're unclear about what exactly your purpose is, don't be surprised if you get denied. It's unfortunate, but consider all of the factors at play before you get too up into arms over the issue.
Either way, the situation with Jim is quite unfortunate. He may have done everything he was supposed to and had bad luck. It's sad, but it seems the entire thing wasn't planned very well. He may not have been able to provide proof of his reasoning before knowing he could compete in America, BUT he very well could have begun the process long before so that if he qualified he'd be more than ready. You don't need all of your documents to start scheduling appointments and preparing. Regardless of the preparation, it's still unfortunate, but you have to remember why this sort of thing happens. A young Chinese male going to the U.S. for a short term to essentially play video games isn't exactly the most solid of reasons for visiting, and isn't exactly the most convincing argument to an immigration officer, whether your family is wealthy or not. Don't forget, plenty of people have tried to cheat the system before (especially Chinese). Blame them, not the ones who are responsible for preventing it.
Anyway I'm not claiming to be an expert on visa-related issues with the U.S., but I have lived in China for a hell of a lot longer than a year, I have many friends here who have gone through these experiences, and I have a background in areas far more valuable than a degree in Chinese from the U.S. (not to be condescending, but a student who's learned even just 6 months of Chinese in China will be way ahead of a recent graduate with a Chinese degree from the U.S.), and these are all things I've witnessed and dealt with quite often (they aren't just random thoughts). Whether there are other factors at play or not is arguable for sure, but I can guarantee you that the things I mentioned here are absolutely relevant, and it seems most people aren't taking them into consideration when they really need to. You have to look at the bigger picture, not just what you see from the relatively isolated world of StarCraft 2.
Regardless, I hope everything works out for the Chinese players and I'd absolutely love to see them succeed. These unfortunate incidents will happen, and maybe it is best to move WCS America to a more neutral location, but we mustn't forget to look at the bigger picture when these things happen. Otherwise we're only moving further away from legitimizing this sort of thing in the eyes of the rest of the world. But shouldn't Jim, unlike the vast majority of the Chinese applying for visa, have the backing of Activision / Blizzard, a huge American company?
Did you even read the original article? It clearly said there was something wrong with the invitation from Blizzard..................
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I know it would never happen and to be honest this problem is not just a US thing, but it seems like a pretty good reason to host wcs America elsewhere.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On July 26 2013 21:19 _SpiRaL_ wrote:
I know it would never happen and to be honest this problem is not just a US thing, but it seems like a pretty good reason to host wcs America elsewhere.
well, Riot has been pretty successful with pushing VISA for LoL players..
Yes, Blizzard, I am staring at you!
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On July 26 2013 21:23 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 21:19 _SpiRaL_ wrote:
I know it would never happen and to be honest this problem is not just a US thing, but it seems like a pretty good reason to host wcs America elsewhere. well, Riot has been pretty successful with pushing VISA for LoL players.. Yes, Blizzard, I am staring at you!
There are like 15 pages in this thread explaining why that is not possible for Blizzard unless they want to employ every player in SC2. And there was nothing wrong with the invitation from Blizzard. Blizzard had NOTHING to do with this.
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On July 26 2013 21:23 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2013 21:19 _SpiRaL_ wrote:
I know it would never happen and to be honest this problem is not just a US thing, but it seems like a pretty good reason to host wcs America elsewhere. well, Riot has been pretty successful with pushing VISA for LoL players.. Yes, Blizzard, I am staring at you!
I'm getting tired of posting this, but here goes nothing: the visa Riot is getting for LoL players is a work visa that allows athletes to work (play) for an American-based organization. It works for Riot since all the LCS teams are essentially employed by Riot and stay in the US for months at a time.
This kind of visa would only work for Blizzard if 1. they wanted to start paying all the player's salaries and 2. wanted all the players in WCS AM to live in the US permanently. It has nothing to do with Jim not being able to get a visa.
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Northern Ireland23732 Posts
Getting sad at the continued travails of the talented Chinese community.
Not sure how you fix it without giving them their own WCS region
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That photo... this thread.
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EPT
