While I don't necessarily have a problem with the damage reduction in relation to worker kills I think this nerf is going to hurt mech in TvT significantly going into the mid game/trying to take a 3rd because combat shield marines and marauders with stim are going to be so much stronger in that already fragile window, and the defense being easier will allow bio to abuse it so much easier. I also thing this is going to give zergs so much more breathing room in an already delicate situation in TvZ... Hellbats are not really going to be at all scary offensively or harassment wise when it matters most, and the banshee buff isn't going to do shit against zerg that it wouldn't have already committing to it. queens and spores are always available and hard counter banshee so easily. And committing into banshees vs medivacs or faster infastructure/economy is too much of a delay so you basically have to do damage with it. WoL terran is going to re emerge at some point, no doubt about it. I really don't understand why they can't just buff the cloak upgrade on banshee or build time and see what happens to hellbat TvT. The nerf was stupid if you can just do a small buff to disrupt the timing/or buff defense to hellbat drops in TvT. The only thing I can see is maybe 2 port banshee coming back a bit as a third transition bc the 100/100 cost could go to another starport perhaps. dunno. but we knew this was coming the pitchforks were up high in the community just like right before the Queen patch in WoL, we saw how that worked out.

oh and banshees have always been beyond terrible in TvP.

Plansix

United States60190 Posts

July 08 2013 18:17 GMT

#62

On July 09 2013 03:15 Usernameffs wrote:
If they buff cloak how do you stop banshee marine push when you don't have an overseer. Cloak is gonna be done before lair.

Spore crawlers? I hear they keep banshees away.

QQKachoo

United States192 Posts

July 08 2013 18:17 GMT

#63

On July 09 2013 03:15 Usernameffs wrote:
If they buff cloak how do you stop banshee marine push when you don't have an overseer. Cloak is gonna be done before lair.

Well placed spore crawlers and good scouting I suppose. I honestly don't know how many marines/banshees they will have or what time a push like that would come. I guess we will have to wait and see.

Sapphire.lux

Romania2620 Posts

July 08 2013 18:18 GMT

#64

On July 09 2013 03:16 pmp10 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Then it is colossally stupid.
Widow mines will always provide more efficient cloak based harassment in TvP and TvZ.
And if mines can't do the job then banshees will be even worse.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, we will see. Regardless, Banshees are awesome units that need to see more play.

MockHamill

Sweden1798 Posts

July 08 2013 18:18 GMT

#65

These changes are great but they need to lower the cost of the Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade somewhat. The important thing is nerfing hellbat drops in early midgame, but this change nerfes mech too much.

Do the changes but lower the resource cost of the Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade. Mech is already weak in TvZ and TvP, plese do not make it even weaker if you can lower the impact by reducing the cost of the Pre-Igniter upgrade.

Clazziquai10

Singapore1949 Posts

July 08 2013 18:18 GMT

#66

On July 09 2013 03:15 Usernameffs wrote:
If they buff cloak how do you stop banshee marine push when you don't have an overseer. Cloak is gonna be done before lair.

...... Spores?

Zoku

307 Posts

July 08 2013 18:19 GMT

#67

If "Hellbat drops are mainly an issue for TvT", and "Terran isn't over performing", why don't they nerf hellbat damage from 18+12 vs light to 20 + 10 vs light with pre-igniter? Then you can still 2 shot drones + probes, while solving hellbat vs hellbat.

LardMaster

United Kingdom123 Posts

July 08 2013 18:20 GMT

#68

Cloak banshees off one gas is gonna be weird if it's possible. May mean obligatory blind spore in every mineral line by ~7min mark? Although tbh I did this against terran anyway since they all did some kind of drop, so it was useful. I still don't think the banshee will be too good tbh, might bring back some of the ancient 2port banshee, but overall I think terrans will just move away from hellbat drops (which are still strong anyway) and towards mine drops. We'll have to see though, im sure the terrans in OSL will have some cool new stuff to show us.

Bagi

Germany6799 Posts

July 08 2013 18:20 GMT

#69

On July 09 2013 03:18 MockHamill wrote:
These changes are great but they need to lower the cost of the Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade somewhat. The important thing is nerfing hellbat drops in early midgame, but this change nerfes mech too much.

Do the changes but lower the resource cost of the Infernal Pre-Igniter upgrade. Mech is already weak in TvZ and TvP, plese do not make it even weaker if you can lower the impact by reducing the cost of the Pre-Igniter upgrade.

I would rather have the transformation upgrade removed entirely.

The hellbat is a fucking mess right now, special rules and upgrades left and right. The least they could do is try to streamline it a bit, remove the superfluous upgrade that only served to delay hellbat pushes (that are now nerfed anyway).

Plansix

United States60190 Posts

July 08 2013 18:20 GMT

#70

On July 09 2013 03:19 Zoku wrote:
If "Hellbat drops are mainly an issue for TvT", and "Terran isn't over performing", why don't they nerf hellbat damage from 18+12 vs light to 20 + 10 vs light with pre-igniter? Then you can still 2 shot drones + probes, while solving hellbat vs hellbat.

Because two shoting drones and probes is also bad. Its ok if there is an upgrade and some investment, but not so early for so cheap.

sva

United States748 Posts

July 08 2013 18:21 GMT

#71

I'm cool with this, hellbats are so annoying in TvT....

SaikOuLighT

Canada742 Posts

July 08 2013 18:21 GMT

#72

There is a god afterall

Durmaz21

Sweden52 Posts

July 08 2013 18:21 GMT

#73

gotta admit the hellbat marauder 2base push v zerg was ridicilously strong, however i did find early hellbat drops pretty enterataining but overall it's a good change i guess

Sapphire.lux

Romania2620 Posts

July 08 2013 18:21 GMT

#74

On July 09 2013 03:14 Bagi wrote:

Show nested quote +

I just can't see banshees having any role in a TvP where the MSC exists.

For TvZ it can be viable, and obviously good in TvT.

Yeah, the MSC and no Evo Chamber Spors are very strong. But then again, if you can open one gas Cloak you might not have to do so much dmg to be worth it.

Deleted User 137586

7859 Posts

July 08 2013 18:22 GMT

#75

I very much dislike this change. Of all the ways TvT could have been saved, this seems the most destructive to the actual purpose we need hellbats: as anti-Zealot units in TvP. Current TvP builds cannot afford the extra 175 gas for blue flame 110 seconds before zealot-archon hits.

As for the slight cost reduction to the banshee, that's pretty moot. Cloak itself has been nerfed against Z and P due to quicker detection (no evo, fast robo builds, oracles). I don't see cloak builds coming back because it's only 100 gas less.