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On July 04 2013 17:44 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 17:34 StarStruck wrote:On July 04 2013 17:26 painkilla wrote:On July 04 2013 17:20 StarStruck wrote:On July 04 2013 17:16 painkilla wrote:On July 04 2013 16:50 StarStruck wrote:On July 04 2013 16:47 asdfOu wrote:On July 04 2013 05:20 Yonnua wrote:
Mvp narrowly loses to Innovation in WCS semis, nearly takes him out, certainly coming closer than anybody else at that tournament. Eighth place.
BUT JANGBI AND FANTASY DID REALLY WELL IN PROLEAGUE GUYS!!! this explains the meaning of life^ I'm still not entirely sold on MVP. All the players that Mvp beat in WCS Finals (Ryung, Kangho, forGG) are way better than your average Kespa players, which again are the source of most wins (hence power rank points) for your favorite Kespa players (Flash, Rain, Fantasy etc). That and the close series with Innovation. forGG? no sir. No, no, no. lol Ryung has been lighting it up in GSTL and LosirA is sort of having a resurgence but please don't try to sell me that can of worms when it comes to forGG. What's wrong with forGG ? Didn't he top his WCS group, beating sOs and Hero? Remember what I said about sample size? forGG is no better than your average KeSPA player. In PL I can see him as a 50-50 player tops. As for the WCS Finals. It leaves way more to be desired man, but if you want to talk sample size. Sure,forGG beat those guys & MVP got through his group by the skin of his teeth. Sometimes it helps to have a little lady luck on your side. Well mvp does that very often. You can say luck, someone else can say it is mental toughness. He also showed that in the Innovation series. This is another thing that PL games can't measure.
Uh... Pro League can measure mental toughness very well bud. There's a lot of preparation involved. You should see some of the old incarnations of it where you don't know who your facing other than the Ace match and all that jazz. I've seen player breakdown and crumble. There's a lot of psychology involved and these players meet often. Tons of rivalries; however, having a really good PL record doesn't guarantee individual results as we've seen many times. Some say PL gives the players more focus especially when they take that early exit in Challenger/Survivor/Dual League/qualifiers/etc. because they got knocked out and it reinvigorates them to do well in PL. There's a lot of emphasis on it regardless, but I assure you these players do feel a lot of pressure. Look at what happened to my boy Sea by the end of the BW PL. He was crushed.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 04 2013 17:46 slowbacontron wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 17:36 lichter wrote:On July 04 2013 17:18 slowbacontron wrote:On July 04 2013 17:06 lichter wrote:On July 04 2013 17:03 slowbacontron wrote:On July 04 2013 16:59 lichter wrote:On July 04 2013 16:44 4ZakeN87 wrote:On July 04 2013 16:26 408xParadox wrote:
10. Taeja: Won HSC7 and got deep at Dreamhack? Stomped some foreigners and gets #10 over Symbol who is top 16 in the OSL right now, and has had multiple deep runs in the last three GSL's?
9. Polt: Wins an MLG against foreigners, why is he considered?
8. Mvp: Even the description says why he shouldn't be top 10.
7. Fantasy: I actually agree with this one. (Before the games against First.) RO16 OSL and tearing up Proleague.
6. Jangbi: Tearing up Proleague, but didn't make RO16 in the OSL, could be top 10, but definitely not #6. More along the lines of a 9 or 10.
5. sOs: Totally agree.
4. Rain: Totally agree
3. Flash: Totally agree.
2. Soulkey: Totally agree.
1. INnoVation: Totally agree. Yeah, KESPA all the way. Why not take the top 10 ranking of PL and be done with it. Here you go, the 10 best SC2 players in the world nice and easy, just copy-paste PL statistic page: 1:Flash 2:Rain 3:INnoVation 4:sOs 5:Hydra 6: Zest 7:Roro 8:herO 9:Effort 10:Soulkey Anyone who thinks Hydra, Zest, RorO, herO and EffOrt are among the Top20 players are delusional. Why are you so butthurt about their methodology anyway? Fact is, Proleague has more games. People will value someone who is 20-5 much more than someone who is 5-1. lichter, you're confusing me. You say that Proleague is a valid way to evaluate players' performances in SC2, but precede that by saying #s 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 in Proleague (as of Round 5) are clearly not top 20? That list includes Wings of Liberty games, which is irrelevant to today's power rank because this is a different game. Also, form during the last two months is important. Those players have been pretty crummy in the HoTS rounds. I still laugh when I see Hydra is the best zerg, because as I mentioned earlier that is totes a sack of zergballs I still have to agree with 4ZakeN87 in that Proleague alone cannot make a Power Rank. Just because many players cannot stay in Korea or are not part of a Proleague team should not automatically disqualify them from being a top 10 player. If they cannot display their skill in Proleague, they will display it in other events. Polt won MLG and was pretty dominant there. He even beat a good Proleague player in Dear along the way. What else do people need to be convinced he deserves a spot in the PR? I never said Polt and his MLG performance didn't deserve his spot. I'd even rate his month better than Rain's, who I felt had a poor June. I also mentioned that I think that the fact Proleague has more games skews the rankings, but that isn't the fault of the writers or Proleague or the players. The fact is, that's the data we have. Who would you favor, someone who is 20-5 or someone who is 5-1? Technically 5-1 has a better win percentage, but the number of games from someone who is 20-5 makes you more certain of their skill. I am not saying I agree with the rankings (I don't), but it is difficult to disagree with their methodology when Proleague has the most amount of games, and other potential Top 10 players (based on skill alone) just don't play enough games for us to be certain of their current level. Now that OSL is in Ro16, I am certain that it will weigh heavier on the Power Rankings, and eliminated players such as JangBi will get bounced out. On July 04 2013 17:28 slowbacontron wrote:On July 04 2013 17:25 StarStruck wrote:
It's not so much KeSPA biased as it is data biased. You go by the data you have. Not by the data you don't. I have no problem with that. Cannot wait to see all teams under one league. The skill level of players outside of Proleague like Polt and Mvp might be more uncertain to us due to small amount of data, but that doesn't mean the players are worse. It is difficult to rank based on uncertainty. We are talking about ranking players who are roughly equal in skill and accomplishments in just a few spots. Everyone from 10-5 can be switched around and it'd still be a believable, arguable list. When there is that level of uncertainty, a writer's opinion begins to weigh more because he must make the judgment call of ordering the players. Had Mvp/Polt/Taeja ranked higher than JangBi/Fantasy/Rain we (TL.net) would still be having this discussion. My argument for Polt traces back to Paradox's post, so it may be a little bit less relevant here. I also think Mvp/Polt/Taeja are fine where they are and that it would be a little weird if they were switched with JangBi/Fanta/Rain. But it just doesn't sit well with me that players who don't participate in Proleague are given such a hard time by some people here. For example, what if Innovation didn't play in Proleague? He would still be just as skilled, but wouldn't have a large number of games to back it up. Consequently, it could be argued that he wouldn't be number 1...regardless of the fact that his skill level would be the same. It's just something I feel uncomfortable about.
I don't think it is effective to make that hypothetical argument for Innovation, because a.) his skill level is clear because of his dominant wins; and b.) he won the WCS Grand Finals and placed second in WCS Korea, so we've seen a good amount of his games. There would be no ambiguity in his skill level even if he did not participate in Proleague. This doesn't really show how Proleague can skew our opinion on players simply due to the volume of games played.
A better example is, perhaps, JangBi. Remove him from Proleague and he has accomplished little to nothing in individual tournaments. Even someone not in the top 10 such as Symbol has arguably accomplished more in June than JangBi in this situation. However, trying to argue that Proleague should have its impact reduced is disingenuous to the purpose of a Power Rankings, because it is the most important Team League in SC2 right now.
Again, I agree that Proleague skews the rankings because of the number of games. But that is the reality of trying to rate players: more games played, more certain of skill. That isn't the fault of the methodology.
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Wow... Its like overnight ALL the top players are Kespa players.
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On July 04 2013 17:46 slowbacontron wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 17:36 lichter wrote:On July 04 2013 17:18 slowbacontron wrote:On July 04 2013 17:06 lichter wrote:On July 04 2013 17:03 slowbacontron wrote:On July 04 2013 16:59 lichter wrote:On July 04 2013 16:44 4ZakeN87 wrote:On July 04 2013 16:26 408xParadox wrote:
10. Taeja: Won HSC7 and got deep at Dreamhack? Stomped some foreigners and gets #10 over Symbol who is top 16 in the OSL right now, and has had multiple deep runs in the last three GSL's?
9. Polt: Wins an MLG against foreigners, why is he considered?
8. Mvp: Even the description says why he shouldn't be top 10.
7. Fantasy: I actually agree with this one. (Before the games against First.) RO16 OSL and tearing up Proleague.
6. Jangbi: Tearing up Proleague, but didn't make RO16 in the OSL, could be top 10, but definitely not #6. More along the lines of a 9 or 10.
5. sOs: Totally agree.
4. Rain: Totally agree
3. Flash: Totally agree.
2. Soulkey: Totally agree.
1. INnoVation: Totally agree. Yeah, KESPA all the way. Why not take the top 10 ranking of PL and be done with it. Here you go, the 10 best SC2 players in the world nice and easy, just copy-paste PL statistic page: 1:Flash 2:Rain 3:INnoVation 4:sOs 5:Hydra 6: Zest 7:Roro 8:herO 9:Effort 10:Soulkey Anyone who thinks Hydra, Zest, RorO, herO and EffOrt are among the Top20 players are delusional. Why are you so butthurt about their methodology anyway? Fact is, Proleague has more games. People will value someone who is 20-5 much more than someone who is 5-1. lichter, you're confusing me. You say that Proleague is a valid way to evaluate players' performances in SC2, but precede that by saying #s 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 in Proleague (as of Round 5) are clearly not top 20? That list includes Wings of Liberty games, which is irrelevant to today's power rank because this is a different game. Also, form during the last two months is important. Those players have been pretty crummy in the HoTS rounds. I still laugh when I see Hydra is the best zerg, because as I mentioned earlier that is totes a sack of zergballs I still have to agree with 4ZakeN87 in that Proleague alone cannot make a Power Rank. Just because many players cannot stay in Korea or are not part of a Proleague team should not automatically disqualify them from being a top 10 player. If they cannot display their skill in Proleague, they will display it in other events. Polt won MLG and was pretty dominant there. He even beat a good Proleague player in Dear along the way. What else do people need to be convinced he deserves a spot in the PR? I never said Polt and his MLG performance didn't deserve his spot. I'd even rate his month better than Rain's, who I felt had a poor June. I also mentioned that I think that the fact Proleague has more games skews the rankings, but that isn't the fault of the writers or Proleague or the players. The fact is, that's the data we have. Who would you favor, someone who is 20-5 or someone who is 5-1? Technically 5-1 has a better win percentage, but the number of games from someone who is 20-5 makes you more certain of their skill. I am not saying I agree with the rankings (I don't), but it is difficult to disagree with their methodology when Proleague has the most amount of games, and other potential Top 10 players (based on skill alone) just don't play enough games for us to be certain of their current level. Now that OSL is in Ro16, I am certain that it will weigh heavier on the Power Rankings, and eliminated players such as JangBi will get bounced out. On July 04 2013 17:28 slowbacontron wrote:On July 04 2013 17:25 StarStruck wrote:
It's not so much KeSPA biased as it is data biased. You go by the data you have. Not by the data you don't. I have no problem with that. Cannot wait to see all teams under one league. The skill level of players outside of Proleague like Polt and Mvp might be more uncertain to us due to small amount of data, but that doesn't mean the players are worse. It is difficult to rank based on uncertainty. We are talking about ranking players who are roughly equal in skill and accomplishments in just a few spots. Everyone from 10-5 can be switched around and it'd still be a believable, arguable list. When there is that level of uncertainty, a writer's opinion begins to weigh more because he must make the judgment call of ordering the players. Had Mvp/Polt/Taeja ranked higher than JangBi/Fantasy/Rain we (TL.net) would still be having this discussion. My argument for Polt traces back to Paradox's post, so it may be a little bit less relevant here. I also think Mvp/Polt/Taeja are fine where they are and that it would be a little weird if they were switched with JangBi/Fanta/Rain. But it just doesn't sit well with me that players who don't participate in Proleague are given such a hard time by some people here. For example, what if Innovation didn't play in Proleague? He would still be just as skilled, but wouldn't have a large number of games to back it up. Consequently, it could be argued that he wouldn't be number 1...regardless of the fact that his skill level would be the same. It's just something I feel uncomfortable about.
Goes back to our data man. Ofc he wouldn't receive as much praise because his skills wouldn't be on display. When you're constantly battling against top end opponents like he is and beating them in convincing fashion? It says a lot about the player. At the end of the day, more games against highly regarded competition is going to look a lot better. Nothing wrong with having more information and I'm at the point where I want more information coming from everyone else. I don't have it now, do I?
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lol at all this hate
kespa >>>> esf
the elephants article predicted it long ago. it didn't come true in WOL because WOL was a crap game that rewarded 1a deathballs. having good mechanics was meaningless. also too many coin flippy situations as a result of too many strong all ins due to poor game design. now that HOTS (at least for now) rewards mechanics, the kespa elephant stampede has begun, and it will not reverse.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 04 2013 17:55 Littlesheep wrote:
Wow... Its like overnight ALL the top players are Kespa players.
If you live on Venus, then yes it happened overnight 
On July 04 2013 17:57 fishjie wrote:
lol at all this hate
kespa >>>> esf
the elephants article predicted it long ago. it didn't come true in WOL because WOL was a crap game that rewarded 1a deathballs. having good mechanics was meaningless. also too many coin flippy situations as a result of too many strong all ins due to poor game design. now that HOTS (at least for now) rewards mechanics, the kespa elephant stampede has begun, and it will not reverse.
More like Best Kespa > Best Esf > Mid Esf > Mid Kespa > Lower Kespa > Lower Esf
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Poland3752 Posts
Heh - First 2-0 his group in OSL and Rain 2-0 his group in OSL. Arguably First beats harder opponents. On top of that Rain disappointed in Proleague (no excuses) and gets 4th while First is not even mentioned.
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On July 04 2013 06:33 Swiv wrote:
A ♥ to the author for writing Jürgen instead of Jurgen.
I have love for none of them. It was kinda funny the first week but now it's just silly. And it never made any sense either, it's not even a Polish name. The fuck?
Thanks for the rank and thread. I find it interesting and the following discussions always delivers. ^^
Edit: Oh, and look out for HyuN. The guy is really starting to get his HotS on.
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On July 04 2013 17:57 fishjie wrote:
lol at all this hate
kespa >>>> esf
the elephants article predicted it long ago. it didn't come true in WOL because WOL was a crap game that rewarded 1a deathballs. having good mechanics was meaningless. also too many coin flippy situations as a result of too many strong all ins due to poor game design. now that HOTS (at least for now) rewards mechanics, the kespa elephant stampede has begun, and it will not reverse.
So much hate in that post...
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On July 04 2013 17:57 fishjie wrote:
lol at all this hate
kespa >>>> esf
the elephants article predicted it long ago. it didn't come true in WOL because WOL was a crap game that rewarded 1a deathballs. having good mechanics was meaningless. also too many coin flippy situations as a result of too many strong all ins due to poor game design. now that HOTS (at least for now) rewards mechanics, the kespa elephant stampede has begun, and it will not reverse.
Errr... it takes a lot of time to catch-up man. Goes way beyond the preconceived notions of how the game played out and let's not generalize. We knew there would be a lot more competition once these boys showed up with their track record in RTS.
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On July 04 2013 17:54 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 17:46 slowbacontron wrote:On July 04 2013 17:36 lichter wrote:On July 04 2013 17:18 slowbacontron wrote:On July 04 2013 17:06 lichter wrote:On July 04 2013 17:03 slowbacontron wrote:On July 04 2013 16:59 lichter wrote:On July 04 2013 16:44 4ZakeN87 wrote:On July 04 2013 16:26 408xParadox wrote:
10. Taeja: Won HSC7 and got deep at Dreamhack? Stomped some foreigners and gets #10 over Symbol who is top 16 in the OSL right now, and has had multiple deep runs in the last three GSL's?
9. Polt: Wins an MLG against foreigners, why is he considered?
8. Mvp: Even the description says why he shouldn't be top 10.
7. Fantasy: I actually agree with this one. (Before the games against First.) RO16 OSL and tearing up Proleague.
6. Jangbi: Tearing up Proleague, but didn't make RO16 in the OSL, could be top 10, but definitely not #6. More along the lines of a 9 or 10.
5. sOs: Totally agree.
4. Rain: Totally agree
3. Flash: Totally agree.
2. Soulkey: Totally agree.
1. INnoVation: Totally agree. Yeah, KESPA all the way. Why not take the top 10 ranking of PL and be done with it. Here you go, the 10 best SC2 players in the world nice and easy, just copy-paste PL statistic page: 1:Flash 2:Rain 3:INnoVation 4:sOs 5:Hydra 6: Zest 7:Roro 8:herO 9:Effort 10:Soulkey Anyone who thinks Hydra, Zest, RorO, herO and EffOrt are among the Top20 players are delusional. Why are you so butthurt about their methodology anyway? Fact is, Proleague has more games. People will value someone who is 20-5 much more than someone who is 5-1. lichter, you're confusing me. You say that Proleague is a valid way to evaluate players' performances in SC2, but precede that by saying #s 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 in Proleague (as of Round 5) are clearly not top 20? That list includes Wings of Liberty games, which is irrelevant to today's power rank because this is a different game. Also, form during the last two months is important. Those players have been pretty crummy in the HoTS rounds. I still laugh when I see Hydra is the best zerg, because as I mentioned earlier that is totes a sack of zergballs I still have to agree with 4ZakeN87 in that Proleague alone cannot make a Power Rank. Just because many players cannot stay in Korea or are not part of a Proleague team should not automatically disqualify them from being a top 10 player. If they cannot display their skill in Proleague, they will display it in other events. Polt won MLG and was pretty dominant there. He even beat a good Proleague player in Dear along the way. What else do people need to be convinced he deserves a spot in the PR? I never said Polt and his MLG performance didn't deserve his spot. I'd even rate his month better than Rain's, who I felt had a poor June. I also mentioned that I think that the fact Proleague has more games skews the rankings, but that isn't the fault of the writers or Proleague or the players. The fact is, that's the data we have. Who would you favor, someone who is 20-5 or someone who is 5-1? Technically 5-1 has a better win percentage, but the number of games from someone who is 20-5 makes you more certain of their skill. I am not saying I agree with the rankings (I don't), but it is difficult to disagree with their methodology when Proleague has the most amount of games, and other potential Top 10 players (based on skill alone) just don't play enough games for us to be certain of their current level. Now that OSL is in Ro16, I am certain that it will weigh heavier on the Power Rankings, and eliminated players such as JangBi will get bounced out. On July 04 2013 17:28 slowbacontron wrote:On July 04 2013 17:25 StarStruck wrote:
It's not so much KeSPA biased as it is data biased. You go by the data you have. Not by the data you don't. I have no problem with that. Cannot wait to see all teams under one league. The skill level of players outside of Proleague like Polt and Mvp might be more uncertain to us due to small amount of data, but that doesn't mean the players are worse. It is difficult to rank based on uncertainty. We are talking about ranking players who are roughly equal in skill and accomplishments in just a few spots. Everyone from 10-5 can be switched around and it'd still be a believable, arguable list. When there is that level of uncertainty, a writer's opinion begins to weigh more because he must make the judgment call of ordering the players. Had Mvp/Polt/Taeja ranked higher than JangBi/Fantasy/Rain we (TL.net) would still be having this discussion. My argument for Polt traces back to Paradox's post, so it may be a little bit less relevant here. I also think Mvp/Polt/Taeja are fine where they are and that it would be a little weird if they were switched with JangBi/Fanta/Rain. But it just doesn't sit well with me that players who don't participate in Proleague are given such a hard time by some people here. For example, what if Innovation didn't play in Proleague? He would still be just as skilled, but wouldn't have a large number of games to back it up. Consequently, it could be argued that he wouldn't be number 1...regardless of the fact that his skill level would be the same. It's just something I feel uncomfortable about. I don't think it is effective to make that hypothetical argument for Innovation, because a.) his skill level is clear because of his dominant wins; and b.) he won the WCS Grand Finals and placed second in WCS Korea, so we've seen a good amount of his games. There would be no ambiguity in his skill level even if he did not participate in Proleague. This doesn't really show how Proleague can skew our opinion on players simply due to the volume of games played. A better example is, perhaps, JangBi. Remove him from Proleague and he has accomplished little to nothing in individual tournaments. Even someone not in the top 10 such as Symbol has arguably accomplished more in June than JangBi in this situation. However, trying to argue that Proleague should have its impact reduced is disingenuous to the purpose of a Power Rankings, because it is the most important Team League in SC2 right now. Again, I agree that Proleague skews the rankings because of the number of games. But that is the reality of trying to rate players: more games played, more certain of skill. That isn't the fault of the methodology.
I think this is the point where our opinions/trains of thought meet. I agree that one can't fault people for using a Proleague-oriented methodology, and I somewhat understand that trying to extrapolate other players' skills from fewer games can be dangerous (but this is a Power Rank, why not throw caution to the wind!). It just makes me unhappy that we can't try to compensate for the statistical disadvantage a player gets for not playing in Proleague. As I said earlier, I think the PR writers did a good job with their evaluations. I first took issue when people were saying Taeja/Polt/Mvp didn't deserve to be on the list.
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Don't think Fantasy should be that high, other than that it looks fine.
Kangho deserves a mention at least
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On July 04 2013 18:04 slowbacontron wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 17:54 lichter wrote:On July 04 2013 17:46 slowbacontron wrote:On July 04 2013 17:36 lichter wrote:On July 04 2013 17:18 slowbacontron wrote:On July 04 2013 17:06 lichter wrote:On July 04 2013 17:03 slowbacontron wrote:On July 04 2013 16:59 lichter wrote:On July 04 2013 16:44 4ZakeN87 wrote:On July 04 2013 16:26 408xParadox wrote:
10. Taeja: Won HSC7 and got deep at Dreamhack? Stomped some foreigners and gets #10 over Symbol who is top 16 in the OSL right now, and has had multiple deep runs in the last three GSL's?
9. Polt: Wins an MLG against foreigners, why is he considered?
8. Mvp: Even the description says why he shouldn't be top 10.
7. Fantasy: I actually agree with this one. (Before the games against First.) RO16 OSL and tearing up Proleague.
6. Jangbi: Tearing up Proleague, but didn't make RO16 in the OSL, could be top 10, but definitely not #6. More along the lines of a 9 or 10.
5. sOs: Totally agree.
4. Rain: Totally agree
3. Flash: Totally agree.
2. Soulkey: Totally agree.
1. INnoVation: Totally agree. Yeah, KESPA all the way. Why not take the top 10 ranking of PL and be done with it. Here you go, the 10 best SC2 players in the world nice and easy, just copy-paste PL statistic page: 1:Flash 2:Rain 3:INnoVation 4:sOs 5:Hydra 6: Zest 7:Roro 8:herO 9:Effort 10:Soulkey Anyone who thinks Hydra, Zest, RorO, herO and EffOrt are among the Top20 players are delusional. Why are you so butthurt about their methodology anyway? Fact is, Proleague has more games. People will value someone who is 20-5 much more than someone who is 5-1. lichter, you're confusing me. You say that Proleague is a valid way to evaluate players' performances in SC2, but precede that by saying #s 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 in Proleague (as of Round 5) are clearly not top 20? That list includes Wings of Liberty games, which is irrelevant to today's power rank because this is a different game. Also, form during the last two months is important. Those players have been pretty crummy in the HoTS rounds. I still laugh when I see Hydra is the best zerg, because as I mentioned earlier that is totes a sack of zergballs I still have to agree with 4ZakeN87 in that Proleague alone cannot make a Power Rank. Just because many players cannot stay in Korea or are not part of a Proleague team should not automatically disqualify them from being a top 10 player. If they cannot display their skill in Proleague, they will display it in other events. Polt won MLG and was pretty dominant there. He even beat a good Proleague player in Dear along the way. What else do people need to be convinced he deserves a spot in the PR? I never said Polt and his MLG performance didn't deserve his spot. I'd even rate his month better than Rain's, who I felt had a poor June. I also mentioned that I think that the fact Proleague has more games skews the rankings, but that isn't the fault of the writers or Proleague or the players. The fact is, that's the data we have. Who would you favor, someone who is 20-5 or someone who is 5-1? Technically 5-1 has a better win percentage, but the number of games from someone who is 20-5 makes you more certain of their skill. I am not saying I agree with the rankings (I don't), but it is difficult to disagree with their methodology when Proleague has the most amount of games, and other potential Top 10 players (based on skill alone) just don't play enough games for us to be certain of their current level. Now that OSL is in Ro16, I am certain that it will weigh heavier on the Power Rankings, and eliminated players such as JangBi will get bounced out. On July 04 2013 17:28 slowbacontron wrote:On July 04 2013 17:25 StarStruck wrote:
It's not so much KeSPA biased as it is data biased. You go by the data you have. Not by the data you don't. I have no problem with that. Cannot wait to see all teams under one league. The skill level of players outside of Proleague like Polt and Mvp might be more uncertain to us due to small amount of data, but that doesn't mean the players are worse. It is difficult to rank based on uncertainty. We are talking about ranking players who are roughly equal in skill and accomplishments in just a few spots. Everyone from 10-5 can be switched around and it'd still be a believable, arguable list. When there is that level of uncertainty, a writer's opinion begins to weigh more because he must make the judgment call of ordering the players. Had Mvp/Polt/Taeja ranked higher than JangBi/Fantasy/Rain we (TL.net) would still be having this discussion. My argument for Polt traces back to Paradox's post, so it may be a little bit less relevant here. I also think Mvp/Polt/Taeja are fine where they are and that it would be a little weird if they were switched with JangBi/Fanta/Rain. But it just doesn't sit well with me that players who don't participate in Proleague are given such a hard time by some people here. For example, what if Innovation didn't play in Proleague? He would still be just as skilled, but wouldn't have a large number of games to back it up. Consequently, it could be argued that he wouldn't be number 1...regardless of the fact that his skill level would be the same. It's just something I feel uncomfortable about. I don't think it is effective to make that hypothetical argument for Innovation, because a.) his skill level is clear because of his dominant wins; and b.) he won the WCS Grand Finals and placed second in WCS Korea, so we've seen a good amount of his games. There would be no ambiguity in his skill level even if he did not participate in Proleague. This doesn't really show how Proleague can skew our opinion on players simply due to the volume of games played. A better example is, perhaps, JangBi. Remove him from Proleague and he has accomplished little to nothing in individual tournaments. Even someone not in the top 10 such as Symbol has arguably accomplished more in June than JangBi in this situation. However, trying to argue that Proleague should have its impact reduced is disingenuous to the purpose of a Power Rankings, because it is the most important Team League in SC2 right now. Again, I agree that Proleague skews the rankings because of the number of games. But that is the reality of trying to rate players: more games played, more certain of skill. That isn't the fault of the methodology. I think this is the point where our opinions/trains of thought meet. I agree that one can't fault people for using a Proleague-oriented methodology, and I somewhat understand that trying to extrapolate other players' skills from fewer games can be dangerous (but this is a Power Rank, why not throw caution to the wind!). It just makes me unhappy that we can't try to compensate for the statistical disadvantage a player gets for not playing in Proleague. As I said earlier, I think the PR writers did a good job with their evaluations. I first took issue when people were saying Taeja/Polt/Mvp didn't deserve to be on the list.
I can't think of a way to compensate for it though. You can't really extrapolate data like that because smaller samples are more volatile. The only real way to even out the field is for a unified Proleague.
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On July 04 2013 18:08 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 18:04 slowbacontron wrote:On July 04 2013 17:54 lichter wrote:On July 04 2013 17:46 slowbacontron wrote:On July 04 2013 17:36 lichter wrote:On July 04 2013 17:18 slowbacontron wrote:On July 04 2013 17:06 lichter wrote:On July 04 2013 17:03 slowbacontron wrote:On July 04 2013 16:59 lichter wrote:On July 04 2013 16:44 4ZakeN87 wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, KESPA all the way. Why not take the top 10 ranking of PL and be done with it.
Here you go, the 10 best SC2 players in the world nice and easy, just copy-paste PL statistic page:
1:Flash
2:Rain
3:INnoVation
4:sOs
5:Hydra
6: Zest
7:Roro
8:herO
9:Effort
10:Soulkey
Anyone who thinks Hydra, Zest, RorO, herO and EffOrt are among the Top20 players are delusional. Why are you so butthurt about their methodology anyway? Fact is, Proleague has more games. People will value someone who is 20-5 much more than someone who is 5-1. lichter, you're confusing me. You say that Proleague is a valid way to evaluate players' performances in SC2, but precede that by saying #s 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 in Proleague (as of Round 5) are clearly not top 20? That list includes Wings of Liberty games, which is irrelevant to today's power rank because this is a different game. Also, form during the last two months is important. Those players have been pretty crummy in the HoTS rounds. I still laugh when I see Hydra is the best zerg, because as I mentioned earlier that is totes a sack of zergballs I still have to agree with 4ZakeN87 in that Proleague alone cannot make a Power Rank. Just because many players cannot stay in Korea or are not part of a Proleague team should not automatically disqualify them from being a top 10 player. If they cannot display their skill in Proleague, they will display it in other events. Polt won MLG and was pretty dominant there. He even beat a good Proleague player in Dear along the way. What else do people need to be convinced he deserves a spot in the PR? I never said Polt and his MLG performance didn't deserve his spot. I'd even rate his month better than Rain's, who I felt had a poor June. I also mentioned that I think that the fact Proleague has more games skews the rankings, but that isn't the fault of the writers or Proleague or the players. The fact is, that's the data we have. Who would you favor, someone who is 20-5 or someone who is 5-1? Technically 5-1 has a better win percentage, but the number of games from someone who is 20-5 makes you more certain of their skill. I am not saying I agree with the rankings (I don't), but it is difficult to disagree with their methodology when Proleague has the most amount of games, and other potential Top 10 players (based on skill alone) just don't play enough games for us to be certain of their current level. Now that OSL is in Ro16, I am certain that it will weigh heavier on the Power Rankings, and eliminated players such as JangBi will get bounced out. On July 04 2013 17:28 slowbacontron wrote:On July 04 2013 17:25 StarStruck wrote:
It's not so much KeSPA biased as it is data biased. You go by the data you have. Not by the data you don't. I have no problem with that. Cannot wait to see all teams under one league. The skill level of players outside of Proleague like Polt and Mvp might be more uncertain to us due to small amount of data, but that doesn't mean the players are worse. It is difficult to rank based on uncertainty. We are talking about ranking players who are roughly equal in skill and accomplishments in just a few spots. Everyone from 10-5 can be switched around and it'd still be a believable, arguable list. When there is that level of uncertainty, a writer's opinion begins to weigh more because he must make the judgment call of ordering the players. Had Mvp/Polt/Taeja ranked higher than JangBi/Fantasy/Rain we (TL.net) would still be having this discussion. My argument for Polt traces back to Paradox's post, so it may be a little bit less relevant here. I also think Mvp/Polt/Taeja are fine where they are and that it would be a little weird if they were switched with JangBi/Fanta/Rain. But it just doesn't sit well with me that players who don't participate in Proleague are given such a hard time by some people here. For example, what if Innovation didn't play in Proleague? He would still be just as skilled, but wouldn't have a large number of games to back it up. Consequently, it could be argued that he wouldn't be number 1...regardless of the fact that his skill level would be the same. It's just something I feel uncomfortable about. I don't think it is effective to make that hypothetical argument for Innovation, because a.) his skill level is clear because of his dominant wins; and b.) he won the WCS Grand Finals and placed second in WCS Korea, so we've seen a good amount of his games. There would be no ambiguity in his skill level even if he did not participate in Proleague. This doesn't really show how Proleague can skew our opinion on players simply due to the volume of games played. A better example is, perhaps, JangBi. Remove him from Proleague and he has accomplished little to nothing in individual tournaments. Even someone not in the top 10 such as Symbol has arguably accomplished more in June than JangBi in this situation. However, trying to argue that Proleague should have its impact reduced is disingenuous to the purpose of a Power Rankings, because it is the most important Team League in SC2 right now. Again, I agree that Proleague skews the rankings because of the number of games. But that is the reality of trying to rate players: more games played, more certain of skill. That isn't the fault of the methodology. I think this is the point where our opinions/trains of thought meet. I agree that one can't fault people for using a Proleague-oriented methodology, and I somewhat understand that trying to extrapolate other players' skills from fewer games can be dangerous (but this is a Power Rank, why not throw caution to the wind!). It just makes me unhappy that we can't try to compensate for the statistical disadvantage a player gets for not playing in Proleague. As I said earlier, I think the PR writers did a good job with their evaluations. I first took issue when people were saying Taeja/Polt/Mvp didn't deserve to be on the list. I can't think of a way to compensate for it though. You can't really extrapolate data like that because smaller samples are more volatile. The only real way to even out the field is for a unified Proleague.
Yes, I'll just have to accept things the way they are for right now :[
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It´s gonna stay that way: Proleague giving a lot more exposure to their players results in them being on everybody´s minds. Wish they would merge the Korean leagues so we could get the real competition going.
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On July 04 2013 17:57 fishjie wrote:
lol at all this hate
kespa >>>> esf
the elephants article predicted it long ago. it didn't come true in WOL because WOL was a crap game that rewarded 1a deathballs. having good mechanics was meaningless. also too many coin flippy situations as a result of too many strong all ins due to poor game design. now that HOTS (at least for now) rewards mechanics, the kespa elephant stampede has begun, and it will not reverse.
These kinds of obnoxious posts really make me don't want to be a Kespa fan. I used to like Bogus a lot at the end of WoL but not so much now.
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Poland3752 Posts
On July 04 2013 18:01 AlternativeEgo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 06:33 Swiv wrote:
A ♥ to the author for writing Jürgen instead of Jurgen. I have love for none of them. It was kinda funny the first week but now it's just silly. And it never made any sense either, it's not even a Polish name. The fuck? Thanks for the rank and thread. I find it interesting and the following discussions always delivers. ^^ Edit: Oh, and look out for HyuN. The guy is really starting to get his HotS on.
Why should he be named with polish name? Polish started to be powerful european kingdom only in XVth century and on the top of alliance with Lithuania while Germany was mainstay power throughout most of the middle ages and unlike all other kingdoms, kings of germany could be elected emperor's so it makes more sense to call him with german name. Also considering Mvp won WCS EU (in Germany) and IEM Cologne (in Germany) it may be that the only country Mvp visited in EU is Germany. So if Forgg is called with some fancy french name (because he lives there), Mvp can only be called with german.
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On July 04 2013 18:14 painkilla wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 17:57 fishjie wrote:
lol at all this hate
kespa >>>> esf
the elephants article predicted it long ago. it didn't come true in WOL because WOL was a crap game that rewarded 1a deathballs. having good mechanics was meaningless. also too many coin flippy situations as a result of too many strong all ins due to poor game design. now that HOTS (at least for now) rewards mechanics, the kespa elephant stampede has begun, and it will not reverse. These kinds of obnoxious posts really make me don't want to be a Kespa fan. I used to like Bogus a lot at the end of WoL but not so much now.
To be fair, he seems to just be a troll. Rather than representative of fans of KeSPA players.
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On July 04 2013 18:14 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 18:01 AlternativeEgo wrote:On July 04 2013 06:33 Swiv wrote:
A ♥ to the author for writing Jürgen instead of Jurgen. I have love for none of them. It was kinda funny the first week but now it's just silly. And it never made any sense either, it's not even a Polish name. The fuck? Thanks for the rank and thread. I find it interesting and the following discussions always delivers. ^^ Edit: Oh, and look out for HyuN. The guy is really starting to get his HotS on. Why should he be named with polish name? Polish started to be powerful european kingdom only in XVth century and on the top of alliance with Lithuania while Germany was mainstay power throughout most of the middle ages and unlike all other kingdoms, kings of germany could be elected emperor's so it makes more sense to call him with german name. Also considering Mvp won WCS EU (in Germany) and IEM Cologne (in Germany) it may be that the only country Mvp visited in EU is Germany. So if Forgg is called with some fancy french name (because he lives there), Mvp can only be called with german.
I hope someone's come up with a fancy French name for Forgg. I think it's already happened but I can't remember it.
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On July 04 2013 18:20 slowbacontron wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2013 18:14 nimdil wrote:On July 04 2013 18:01 AlternativeEgo wrote:On July 04 2013 06:33 Swiv wrote:
A ♥ to the author for writing Jürgen instead of Jurgen. I have love for none of them. It was kinda funny the first week but now it's just silly. And it never made any sense either, it's not even a Polish name. The fuck? Thanks for the rank and thread. I find it interesting and the following discussions always delivers. ^^ Edit: Oh, and look out for HyuN. The guy is really starting to get his HotS on. Why should he be named with polish name? Polish started to be powerful european kingdom only in XVth century and on the top of alliance with Lithuania while Germany was mainstay power throughout most of the middle ages and unlike all other kingdoms, kings of germany could be elected emperor's so it makes more sense to call him with german name. Also considering Mvp won WCS EU (in Germany) and IEM Cologne (in Germany) it may be that the only country Mvp visited in EU is Germany. So if Forgg is called with some fancy french name (because he lives there), Mvp can only be called with german. I hope someone's come up with a fancy French name for Forgg. I think it's already happened but I can't remember it.
I´m up for Jean-Baptiste, since his name is Ji Soo and his HPM lends itself to baptism by fire.
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EPT
