|
On June 26 2013 07:05 FCReverie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 05:17 Eurekastreet wrote:
1. First time I complain about a map but as a casual platinum toss, first impression is that Khoral Island is just bullshit. As a protoss, last couple of seasons' maps have been hard enough to wall against zergs (the race I struggle most against) because of the ramps getting bigger and bigger but with that double opening/ramp access to the natural, it just makes things harder. It's amazing that we got the prism acceleration buff, that sure did help me vs the fast pool followed by a 2 base roach ling I just experienced, when I wasn't even done walling the second entrance to my natural.
2. I don't veto maps ever because I (foolishly ?) believe they're all balanced and I'm supposed to learn to play all of them in a different way but jeez, it's hard enough to be a protoss lately, do we really need this kind of shit map to make it even harder ? By the the time I see how koreans do it and manage to try and reproduce it, we'll be in next season and map will probably disappear as it should. I don't know about other protoss platinum players (I guess everyone have their own nemesis) but the only race I'm struggling badly against is zerg, not because I think it's imba or anything but most (at my knob level) of the time, the biggest issue is the map setup.... doing a proper wall in vs zerg, one that's also economical is (more than) half the success in my pvz approach...fail to it and the match is over (whereas it doesn't matter that much vs terran and I can still fail but because my macro is bad or my engagements are lousy or my scouting is poor, but at least I get a chance to try and have a fun game). It was already tough with the ramps getting larger and larger in latest season maps (most of my zerg matches I try to build a wall the get busted one way or another, and if i defend it, I usually sacrify my economy for it, just delaying my unavoidable death), and now they start multiplying ramps/access points ? What's next ? 100% Open maps (with an even faster warp prism)?
3. I quickly browsed through the previous posts and it seems people are complaining about the third too. Just great, maybe in two months I'll get there, so I can realize it's messed up too.
4. I understand maps should be fine tuned for pros/masters/or even diamonds players...but this kind of map makes me feel no one gives a damn about us casual players,; what's the fun in those ? Lately, I load those and if I see the opponent is zerg, I know that if I don't cheese or do an all-in timing push, i can kiss the game goodbye. PvZ is already repetitive as shit (cheese or all-in or just forget about it, unless you're uber skilled ) and this kind of map makes it even worse.
5. I'm sure a lot of peeps will find the map great for one reason or another, but as a casual toss that's been struggling against zerg and zerg only because of the wall in/rush issues (all of us aren't pros), this is just irritating and makes me feel this hasn't been balanced at all (or at least not taking everyone into account). I don't mind losing at all, but at least I wanna feel I have a decent chance to win on every match/matchup, and this kind of map doesn't help me feel the game is giving me that opportunity. Maybe it's a first (and wrong) impression, but it is what it is right now, after my first game on it.
6. Last but not least : why in the name of god do 4 spawn points appear in the preview/loading screen when there's only 2 possible spawn points on the map ? I played a couple of days ago on one of the other new maps and it was already the case. I lost because I scouted the 4 sides of the map (my first play on it) before I found my opponent ( a toss brother), while he was already aware of this, and was cannon rushing me....do the guys who design the maps spend 2 months polishing the rocks and 15 minutes (including a coffee break) thinking about balance testing and fine tuning them ? 1. It is one of the easiest walls to make in the game. 1 pylon 1 forge on one side with no space then on the other side do 1 pylon 1 gate but put the pylon or gate 1 hex away from closing it, you can block it with a zealot later. Then you put a cannon in the middle and can shoot the rocks down on the side you sealed making it a double wall. If you scout trouble coming just seal both sides with your buildings instead of one. I don't understand why toss have so much trouble walling, terrans have no problem and their buildings are the same size :/ AND how can you complain about it being hard to wall. Have you ever played antiga, metalopolis, xelnaga caverns etc etc. Those maps the natural was just open space. By those standards these maps are easy. 2.Why do you expect to be allowed to fail something and still win. The Zerg fails to drone at the right time and loses. Should he have lost? Of course. So should you if you don't play properly. Just go into a custom game and figure out how to wall rather than in a match. If you mess up the wall kill it and start again. This has nothing to do with the current map pool, like I said it is actually fairly lenient. 3. It is difficult to take a third on this map. Maybe consider altering your approach for the map? Try a 2 base timing push where you expand as you move out or even try 2 base all in? It is no more difficult on this map to take a 3rd than star station. (It is probably easier) 4. That's because Protoss mechanics, not maps. Nothing you can do about it 5. If it is walling you really think is the problem then like I said just practice it. If still you can't win you are just doing something else wrong. 6. There are 4 spawn locations but it is cross position only.
Didn't know about 6., thanks for that.
As for the rest :
1. Maybe I find it hard to wall because I'm not so good at the game but since I'm platinum I guess I'm not the only one
in that position. I only played the map once so maybe I'll agree with you after more plays on it but that was my first impression. And looking at the map preview again, I guess I'll see my natural probe line getting killed by mutas hovering above/being defended by a zerg ground army (and therefore making it super hard for me to defend anything at all) more times than I can count, without being to do anything useful about it.
I understand going forge is a nice way to wall in but it means you - have to - forge and that's what annoys me.
I can't count the amount of games where 99 percent of my game time vs zerg was spent fast expanding, focusing on building on decent wall, not letting my macro slip up too much and by the time i was done with it, all i had left to do was to wait 30 to 60 secs and see which sauce zerg was gonna use to eat me alive.
Not because it's imba but because not everyone has good scouting/good analysis of what they see in the zerg base. This 2 base push or die thing in pvz is just repetitive and boring and demanding and having a map with more ramps just make it seem harder to play than it was before. Or at least that was my impression. PvT or PvP is - at least to me - funnier to play because the choice of strats is much more open, much more reactive, and doing a tiny mistake is not always a big deal. PvZ is unforgiving. I don't mind it being unforgiving but what I don't like is doing the same strat/builds game after game after game (and in my case losing them again and again and again)
I understand it's part of the toss race mechanics (and I hope Blizz fixes that someday to make PvZ much more reactive, action packed in the early game - I'd almost come to regret the good old days when 4 gates was still a viable strategy) but having these kind of maps doesn't help me enjoying the matchup
2 I'm not expecting to win if I mess my wall but I'd like the game to be more reactive/fun to play. Most of the pvzs I play are 10 minutes of droning/building a wall and 1 minute of losing vs a fast attack / an attack I'm not prepared for (unless once again I go for a fast immo push (and then I'd have to get ready for the inevitable toss is op+ragequit combo - gotta love ladder) but other than that, nothing seems to work because of my lack of macro/micro/scouting).
I don't expect to win but I'd like the game to be fun to play vs zerg. Once again PvT is in mind much more reactive, lot more strategies are available for toss , comebacks are possible, defend vs drops and you feel you're going in the right direction, tiny things and tiny things that make the game entertaining, keep you busy and don't transform the game in some kind of insta flip coin at minute 10 etc etc whereas vs zerg, unless I go for the usual colossi/immortal push, nothing happens till z is ready with their own push, and then the game is as good as over.
Sorry for the rant, I'm just struggling against zerg and haven't had any fun vs it in the past several months and maybe it's because I'm tilting - but at platinum level, I don't think that matters really - and part of the tilting/no fun factor is for the reasons above.
|
On June 26 2013 17:06 Eurekastreet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 07:05 FCReverie wrote:On June 24 2013 05:17 Eurekastreet wrote:
1. First time I complain about a map but as a casual platinum toss, first impression is that Khoral Island is just bullshit. As a protoss, last couple of seasons' maps have been hard enough to wall against zergs (the race I struggle most against) because of the ramps getting bigger and bigger but with that double opening/ramp access to the natural, it just makes things harder. It's amazing that we got the prism acceleration buff, that sure did help me vs the fast pool followed by a 2 base roach ling I just experienced, when I wasn't even done walling the second entrance to my natural.
2. I don't veto maps ever because I (foolishly ?) believe they're all balanced and I'm supposed to learn to play all of them in a different way but jeez, it's hard enough to be a protoss lately, do we really need this kind of shit map to make it even harder ? By the the time I see how koreans do it and manage to try and reproduce it, we'll be in next season and map will probably disappear as it should. I don't know about other protoss platinum players (I guess everyone have their own nemesis) but the only race I'm struggling badly against is zerg, not because I think it's imba or anything but most (at my knob level) of the time, the biggest issue is the map setup.... doing a proper wall in vs zerg, one that's also economical is (more than) half the success in my pvz approach...fail to it and the match is over (whereas it doesn't matter that much vs terran and I can still fail but because my macro is bad or my engagements are lousy or my scouting is poor, but at least I get a chance to try and have a fun game). It was already tough with the ramps getting larger and larger in latest season maps (most of my zerg matches I try to build a wall the get busted one way or another, and if i defend it, I usually sacrify my economy for it, just delaying my unavoidable death), and now they start multiplying ramps/access points ? What's next ? 100% Open maps (with an even faster warp prism)?
3. I quickly browsed through the previous posts and it seems people are complaining about the third too. Just great, maybe in two months I'll get there, so I can realize it's messed up too.
4. I understand maps should be fine tuned for pros/masters/or even diamonds players...but this kind of map makes me feel no one gives a damn about us casual players,; what's the fun in those ? Lately, I load those and if I see the opponent is zerg, I know that if I don't cheese or do an all-in timing push, i can kiss the game goodbye. PvZ is already repetitive as shit (cheese or all-in or just forget about it, unless you're uber skilled ) and this kind of map makes it even worse.
5. I'm sure a lot of peeps will find the map great for one reason or another, but as a casual toss that's been struggling against zerg and zerg only because of the wall in/rush issues (all of us aren't pros), this is just irritating and makes me feel this hasn't been balanced at all (or at least not taking everyone into account). I don't mind losing at all, but at least I wanna feel I have a decent chance to win on every match/matchup, and this kind of map doesn't help me feel the game is giving me that opportunity. Maybe it's a first (and wrong) impression, but it is what it is right now, after my first game on it.
6. Last but not least : why in the name of god do 4 spawn points appear in the preview/loading screen when there's only 2 possible spawn points on the map ? I played a couple of days ago on one of the other new maps and it was already the case. I lost because I scouted the 4 sides of the map (my first play on it) before I found my opponent ( a toss brother), while he was already aware of this, and was cannon rushing me....do the guys who design the maps spend 2 months polishing the rocks and 15 minutes (including a coffee break) thinking about balance testing and fine tuning them ? 1. It is one of the easiest walls to make in the game. 1 pylon 1 forge on one side with no space then on the other side do 1 pylon 1 gate but put the pylon or gate 1 hex away from closing it, you can block it with a zealot later. Then you put a cannon in the middle and can shoot the rocks down on the side you sealed making it a double wall. If you scout trouble coming just seal both sides with your buildings instead of one. I don't understand why toss have so much trouble walling, terrans have no problem and their buildings are the same size :/ AND how can you complain about it being hard to wall. Have you ever played antiga, metalopolis, xelnaga caverns etc etc. Those maps the natural was just open space. By those standards these maps are easy. 2.Why do you expect to be allowed to fail something and still win. The Zerg fails to drone at the right time and loses. Should he have lost? Of course. So should you if you don't play properly. Just go into a custom game and figure out how to wall rather than in a match. If you mess up the wall kill it and start again. This has nothing to do with the current map pool, like I said it is actually fairly lenient. 3. It is difficult to take a third on this map. Maybe consider altering your approach for the map? Try a 2 base timing push where you expand as you move out or even try 2 base all in? It is no more difficult on this map to take a 3rd than star station. (It is probably easier) 4. That's because Protoss mechanics, not maps. Nothing you can do about it 5. If it is walling you really think is the problem then like I said just practice it. If still you can't win you are just doing something else wrong. 6. There are 4 spawn locations but it is cross position only. Didn't know about 6., thanks for that. As for the rest : 1. Maybe I find it hard to wall because I'm not so good at the game but since I'm platinum I guess I'm not the only one in that position. I only played the map once so maybe I'll agree with you after more plays on it but that was my first impression. And looking at the map preview again, I guess I'll see my natural probe line getting killed by mutas hovering above/being defended by a zerg ground army (and therefore making it super hard for me to defend anything at all) more times than I can count, without being to do anything useful about it. I understand going forge is a nice way to wall in but it means you - have to - forge and that's what annoys me. I can't count the amount of games where 99 percent of my game time vs zerg was spent fast expanding, focusing on building on decent wall, not letting my macro slip up too much and by the time i was done with it, all i had left to do was to wait 30 to 60 secs and see which sauce zerg was gonna use to eat me alive. Not because it's imba but because not everyone has good scouting/good analysis of what they see in the zerg base. This 2 base push or die thing in pvz is just repetitive and boring and demanding and having a map with more ramps just make it seem harder to play than it was before. Or at least that was my impression. PvT or PvP is - at least to me - funnier to play because the choice of strats is much more open, much more reactive, and doing a tiny mistake is not always a big deal. PvZ is unforgiving. I don't mind it being unforgiving but what I don't like is doing the same strat/builds game after game after game (and in my case losing them again and again and again) I understand it's part of the toss race mechanics (and I hope Blizz fixes that someday to make PvZ much more reactive, action packed in the early game - I'd almost come to regret the good old days when 4 gates was still a viable strategy) but having these kind of maps doesn't help me enjoying the matchup 2 I'm not expecting to win if I mess my wall but I'd like the game to be more reactive/fun to play. Most of the pvzs I play are 10 minutes of droning/building a wall and 1 minute of losing vs a fast attack / an attack I'm not prepared for (unless once again I go for a fast immo push (and then I'd have to get ready for the inevitable toss is op+ragequit combo - gotta love ladder) but other than that, nothing seems to work because of my lack of macro/micro/scouting). I don't expect to win but I'd like the game to be fun to play vs zerg. Once again PvT is in mind much more reactive, lot more strategies are available for toss , comebacks are possible, defend vs drops and you feel you're going in the right direction, tiny things and tiny things that make the game entertaining, keep you busy and don't transform the game in some kind of insta flip coin at minute 10 etc etc whereas vs zerg, unless I go for the usual colossi/immortal push, nothing happens till z is ready with their own push, and then the game is as good as over. Sorry for the rant, I'm just struggling against zerg and haven't had any fun vs it in the past several months and maybe it's because I'm tilting - but at platinum level, I don't think that matters really - and part of the tilting/no fun factor is for the reasons above.
Not really sure what your PvZ problem has to do with the map. I personally actually strugle vs Protoss quite a bit on this map, I do so mainly because the map is so narrow that forcefields are so strong. I do however see that an early pool can be a problem for a "greedy" protoss. Me personally i like to resort to big drops on this map if it's bottom right vs top left. It's very effective and if done properly can even be used against Stargate play.
If it's bottom left vs top right however... I have yet to win a Game vs Protoss, the few I played i got demolished by phoenix into Colossus Sentry.
|
|
|
On June 26 2013 17:06 Eurekastreet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2013 07:05 FCReverie wrote:On June 24 2013 05:17 Eurekastreet wrote:
1. First time I complain about a map but as a casual platinum toss, first impression is that Khoral Island is just bullshit. As a protoss, last couple of seasons' maps have been hard enough to wall against zergs (the race I struggle most against) because of the ramps getting bigger and bigger but with that double opening/ramp access to the natural, it just makes things harder. It's amazing that we got the prism acceleration buff, that sure did help me vs the fast pool followed by a 2 base roach ling I just experienced, when I wasn't even done walling the second entrance to my natural.
2. I don't veto maps ever because I (foolishly ?) believe they're all balanced and I'm supposed to learn to play all of them in a different way but jeez, it's hard enough to be a protoss lately, do we really need this kind of shit map to make it even harder ? By the the time I see how koreans do it and manage to try and reproduce it, we'll be in next season and map will probably disappear as it should. I don't know about other protoss platinum players (I guess everyone have their own nemesis) but the only race I'm struggling badly against is zerg, not because I think it's imba or anything but most (at my knob level) of the time, the biggest issue is the map setup.... doing a proper wall in vs zerg, one that's also economical is (more than) half the success in my pvz approach...fail to it and the match is over (whereas it doesn't matter that much vs terran and I can still fail but because my macro is bad or my engagements are lousy or my scouting is poor, but at least I get a chance to try and have a fun game). It was already tough with the ramps getting larger and larger in latest season maps (most of my zerg matches I try to build a wall the get busted one way or another, and if i defend it, I usually sacrify my economy for it, just delaying my unavoidable death), and now they start multiplying ramps/access points ? What's next ? 100% Open maps (with an even faster warp prism)?
3. I quickly browsed through the previous posts and it seems people are complaining about the third too. Just great, maybe in two months I'll get there, so I can realize it's messed up too.
4. I understand maps should be fine tuned for pros/masters/or even diamonds players...but this kind of map makes me feel no one gives a damn about us casual players,; what's the fun in those ? Lately, I load those and if I see the opponent is zerg, I know that if I don't cheese or do an all-in timing push, i can kiss the game goodbye. PvZ is already repetitive as shit (cheese or all-in or just forget about it, unless you're uber skilled ) and this kind of map makes it even worse.
5. I'm sure a lot of peeps will find the map great for one reason or another, but as a casual toss that's been struggling against zerg and zerg only because of the wall in/rush issues (all of us aren't pros), this is just irritating and makes me feel this hasn't been balanced at all (or at least not taking everyone into account). I don't mind losing at all, but at least I wanna feel I have a decent chance to win on every match/matchup, and this kind of map doesn't help me feel the game is giving me that opportunity. Maybe it's a first (and wrong) impression, but it is what it is right now, after my first game on it.
6. Last but not least : why in the name of god do 4 spawn points appear in the preview/loading screen when there's only 2 possible spawn points on the map ? I played a couple of days ago on one of the other new maps and it was already the case. I lost because I scouted the 4 sides of the map (my first play on it) before I found my opponent ( a toss brother), while he was already aware of this, and was cannon rushing me....do the guys who design the maps spend 2 months polishing the rocks and 15 minutes (including a coffee break) thinking about balance testing and fine tuning them ? 1. It is one of the easiest walls to make in the game. 1 pylon 1 forge on one side with no space then on the other side do 1 pylon 1 gate but put the pylon or gate 1 hex away from closing it, you can block it with a zealot later. Then you put a cannon in the middle and can shoot the rocks down on the side you sealed making it a double wall. If you scout trouble coming just seal both sides with your buildings instead of one. I don't understand why toss have so much trouble walling, terrans have no problem and their buildings are the same size :/ AND how can you complain about it being hard to wall. Have you ever played antiga, metalopolis, xelnaga caverns etc etc. Those maps the natural was just open space. By those standards these maps are easy. 2.Why do you expect to be allowed to fail something and still win. The Zerg fails to drone at the right time and loses. Should he have lost? Of course. So should you if you don't play properly. Just go into a custom game and figure out how to wall rather than in a match. If you mess up the wall kill it and start again. This has nothing to do with the current map pool, like I said it is actually fairly lenient. 3. It is difficult to take a third on this map. Maybe consider altering your approach for the map? Try a 2 base timing push where you expand as you move out or even try 2 base all in? It is no more difficult on this map to take a 3rd than star station. (It is probably easier) 4. That's because Protoss mechanics, not maps. Nothing you can do about it 5. If it is walling you really think is the problem then like I said just practice it. If still you can't win you are just doing something else wrong. 6. There are 4 spawn locations but it is cross position only. Didn't know about 6., thanks for that. As for the rest : 1. Maybe I find it hard to wall because I'm not so good at the game but since I'm platinum I guess I'm not the only one in that position. I only played the map once so maybe I'll agree with you after more plays on it but that was my first impression. And looking at the map preview again, I guess I'll see my natural probe line getting killed by mutas hovering above/being defended by a zerg ground army (and therefore making it super hard for me to defend anything at all) more times than I can count, without being to do anything useful about it. I understand going forge is a nice way to wall in but it means you - have to - forge and that's what annoys me. I can't count the amount of games where 99 percent of my game time vs zerg was spent fast expanding, focusing on building on decent wall, not letting my macro slip up too much and by the time i was done with it, all i had left to do was to wait 30 to 60 secs and see which sauce zerg was gonna use to eat me alive. Not because it's imba but because not everyone has good scouting/good analysis of what they see in the zerg base. This 2 base push or die thing in pvz is just repetitive and boring and demanding and having a map with more ramps just make it seem harder to play than it was before. Or at least that was my impression. PvT or PvP is - at least to me - funnier to play because the choice of strats is much more open, much more reactive, and doing a tiny mistake is not always a big deal. PvZ is unforgiving. I don't mind it being unforgiving but what I don't like is doing the same strat/builds game after game after game (and in my case losing them again and again and again) I understand it's part of the toss race mechanics (and I hope Blizz fixes that someday to make PvZ much more reactive, action packed in the early game - I'd almost come to regret the good old days when 4 gates was still a viable strategy) but having these kind of maps doesn't help me enjoying the matchup 2 I'm not expecting to win if I mess my wall but I'd like the game to be more reactive/fun to play. Most of the pvzs I play are 10 minutes of droning/building a wall and 1 minute of losing vs a fast attack / an attack I'm not prepared for (unless once again I go for a fast immo push (and then I'd have to get ready for the inevitable toss is op+ragequit combo - gotta love ladder) but other than that, nothing seems to work because of my lack of macro/micro/scouting). I don't expect to win but I'd like the game to be fun to play vs zerg. Once again PvT is in mind much more reactive, lot more strategies are available for toss , comebacks are possible, defend vs drops and you feel you're going in the right direction, tiny things and tiny things that make the game entertaining, keep you busy and don't transform the game in some kind of insta flip coin at minute 10 etc etc whereas vs zerg, unless I go for the usual colossi/immortal push, nothing happens till z is ready with their own push, and then the game is as good as over. Sorry for the rant, I'm just struggling against zerg and haven't had any fun vs it in the past several months and maybe it's because I'm tilting - but at platinum level, I don't think that matters really - and part of the tilting/no fun factor is for the reasons above.
PvZ has been this for a long time. Not map dependent. Remember that the Zerg has to do the same thing as you. ZvP is literally just the right mixture of building drones at the right time and trying not to die to early pushes. It's kind of a shitty matchup tbh. :p
|
The names of the maps are very.. interesting.. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
