New Maps for 2013 Ladder Season 4 by Blizzard Entertainment Jun 5, 2013 3:00 PM PDT New Maps for 2013 Ladder Season 4
We have a goal of bringing the 1v1 ladder map pool into alignment with the maps being used in the World Championship Series, and we're adding two 1v1 maps to the pool for Season 4. As we’re now starting each ladder season with the start of a new WCS season, this will allow pro players (and prospective pros) to practice on the ladder using more of the same maps that will be used in WCS.
As always, making additions to the ladder pool means we’ll be removing a couple of last season’s maps. Here are the maps we’ll be removing:
1v1 Removals
Klontas Mire TE Zerus Prime TE
After discussions with our eSports partners, agreement was reached to add the following:
In addition to these nine maps on the 1v1 ladder, there are two additional maps created by Ongamenet that will be available for 2013 WCS Season 2: Gwangalli Beach LE and Anaconda LE. These two maps bring the total WCS 2013 Season 2 map pool to 11; however, they will not be published to the ladder.
For 2013 WCS Season 2, we worked with our eSports partners to put together a pool of 11 maps from which each WCS region can select 7 for use in tournament play.
We’ve also been carefully considering the finalists of the Team Liquid Mapmaking Contest. The finalists all look excellent; however, time constraints have forced us to consider these maps for the 2013 Ladder Season 5 instead of Ladder Season 4.
In addition to the changes being made to the 1v1 map pool, we are also making changes to the 4v4 map pool. Below are the maps that we’ll be removing, along with descriptions of two new 4v4 maps that we are adding.
These four new maps have already been published to the custom games list in order to give you a chance to check them out before the season roll. Once the season has rolled on June 10, they will then appear in the matchmaking queues for competitive play. Feel free to play a few games on the new maps and let us know what you think in the comment section below.
Good luck and have fun in the 2013 Season 4 ladder!
I never really liked Zerus Prime or Klontas Mire so I'm glad to see them go. Red City has always looked like a really fun map in GSL so I'm happy to see that being added in. As always I'm thrilled they are continuing to adjust the team game map pool.
Important Note: When this blog was initially published, it was missing a 1v1 map that will be added to the Season 4 map pool -- Newkirk Precinct TE (an adaptation of Proleague's Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct, which is based on Blizzard's original Newkirk District). The blog has been updated to include an image.
I never understood how lesser maps like Klontas Mire and Zerus Prime end up on the ladder map pool. Oh well. One step closer to having perfect integration between all WCS tournaments and the ladder.
I like the new additions. Haven't seen much (or any) gameplay on Red City, but for Korhal, I have. Korhal is an interesting map but it might be one I'll veto.
In addition to these nine maps on the 1v1 ladder, there are two additional maps created by Ongamenet that will be available for 2013 WCS Season 2: Gwangalli Beach LE and Anaconda LE. These two maps bring the total WCS 2013 Season 2 map pool to 11; however, they will not be published to the ladder.
For 2013 WCS Season 2, we worked with our eSports partners to put together a pool of 11 maps from which each WCS region can select 7 for use in tournament play.
Why would you just not use identical map pools across WCS?
personaly i don't know about red city's and Korhal Sky Island LE's balance, but Korhal Sky Island LE is fun and nice to watch and red city is regulary played in GSL so i think it's quite balanced !
Zerus prime and klontas out is definitly a good thing
On June 06 2013 07:08 Vindicare605 wrote: We’ve also been carefully considering the finalists of the Team Liquid Mapmaking Contest. The finalists all look excellent; however, time constraints have forced us to consider these maps for the 2013 Ladder Season 5 instead of Ladder Season 4.
Very big changes! I consider these changes an improvement to he map pool and a good sign about Blizzard's attitude towards finding and using actually good maps
On June 06 2013 07:08 Vindicare605 wrote: We’ve also been carefully considering the finalists of the Team Liquid Mapmaking Contest. The finalists all look excellent; however, time constraints have forced us to consider these maps for the 2013 Ladder Season 5 instead of Ladder Season 4.
Mid-season update! Do it Blizzard! I dare you!
They have only done that twice before... and only been removing broken maps from the pool during that.
11 maps definitely seems like too many to choose from and 7 seems like too many for a tournament. They should at least all use the same map versions. MLG has been using Whirlwind SE while ESL and GOM have been using LE. Blizzard also created an issue by changing Star Station spawn positions half way through the WCS season.
2 trash maps are replaced by other 2 trash maps :D crazy island map and the cheesiest map in GSL. I wish they at least synchronized all 3 regions mappools with ladder mappool and other tournaments pick this as their mappool, then there wont be any maps on the ladder u dont need to practice! That's just a personal dislike on the maps, but it's very good move by Blizzard to remove less playerd/most vetoed maps and add some good popular maps!
That's awesome, I agree with what was said on meta (by idra) that every WCS map should be in the ladder. So hard to practice those maps if your not in a team(house).
Wait can someone explain why Neo Planet S is a good map to me? I am really sad it is still there. Just because Kespa made it isn't good enough. It promotes 2 base play at best.
pretty happy about this. i love that theyve decided to merge ladder seasons with WCS seasons. its perfect for pro's to practice alone, its perfect for masters and GMs to improve and aspire to compete with the pro's on the tourney maps, and its perfect for the casual players who watch their favourite players so sick strats on these maps and want to give it a go themselves
huge props to blizzard for finally pulling their head in and doing whats right for both esports and the casuals. and not just to whichever brings them in the most money at the time
as far as 4v4 maps go. writhing morass looks like its gonna be a lot of fun!! :D
Klontas Mire TE - terrible late game however i loved my 10 gate 10 assimilator 1 zealot/stalker/mscore timing vT on it :D Zerus Prime TE - terrible map too easy to split .
red city is rly good . i think ppl should play it more to understand . i havent played the other one
On June 06 2013 07:37 Wodger wrote: 11 maps definitely seems like too many to choose from and 7 seems like too many for a tournament. They should at least all use the same map versions. MLG has been using Whirlwind SE while ESL and GOM have been using LE. Blizzard also created an issue by changing Star Station spawn positions half way through the WCS season.
Zerus Prime nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
On June 06 2013 07:37 Wodger wrote: 11 maps definitely seems like too many to choose from and 7 seems like too many for a tournament. They should at least all use the same map versions. MLG has been using Whirlwind SE while ESL and GOM have been using LE. Blizzard also created an issue by changing Star Station spawn positions half way through the WCS season.
Isn't Whirlwind LE and SE the same?
Whirlwind SE has 2 rocks at the thirds and a supply depot to narrow entrance to natural
I don't mind them having different map pools for every region but there has to be some purpose behind it. For instance they could have unique maps that reward creative play or they could create incentive for local map makers by adopting one of their contributions.
I also think that all maps in the WCS need to be available on the ladder, I think this ties the WCS better into the SC2 multiplayer experience, since if you have all these connections between ladder seasons it creates this impression that ladder seasons are important and that you are not disconnected from the pro scene. (maybe...)
I guess 11 maps would be too much clutter for on the ladder, so they should probably cut down the potential WCS map pool to 9 instead of 11. They could possibly have a different ladder pool for a different region, but I guess that's too complicated and has too many implications.
And they should make sure that the map pool for the season finals is fair. Currently the map pool is the same as for WCS Europe, which isn't fair to Korea/NA - and Korea is hosting so if anything they should adopt their map pool.
Blizzard is taking even more steps in the right direction. I'm happy with these decisions. Now all they have to do is remove Star Station and Derelict Watchtower, and all will be good.
In addition to these nine maps on the 1v1 ladder, there are two additional maps created by Ongamenet that will be available for 2013 WCS Season 2: Gwangalli Beach LE and Anaconda LE. These two maps bring the total WCS 2013 Season 2 map pool to 11; however, they will not be published to the ladder.
For 2013 WCS Season 2, we worked with our eSports partners to put together a pool of 11 maps from which each WCS region can select 7 for use in tournament play.
Why would you just not use identical map pools across WCS?
I don't like this, we get more maps with rush distances sooooo long. Klontas Mire was one of the few were you could successfully pressure the enemy without going all-in. And it will be replaced with another map that will take a week to get into your opponent's nat.
OMG, the dreadful Klontas Mire is dead way too late, that map was a real pain!! Zerus Prime was not as bad, maybe Korhal Sky Island might proof wonkier with that rather unfamiliar spawning mechanism. Anyway, change is the only way to go!! :-D
On June 06 2013 08:02 scypio wrote: I don't like this, we get more maps with rush distances sooooo long. Klontas Mire was one of the few were you could successfully pressure the enemy without going all-in. And it will be replaced with another map that will take a week to get into your opponent's nat.
Guess Blizzard does not like aggressive play
We've come a long way from the days of Incineration Zone and Steppes of War.
On June 06 2013 08:04 Wrathsc2 wrote: more big maps lol
They should just rename the game to MacroCraft.
There are really aggressive maps in the pool as well as some macro maps. They have also got rid of the majority of terrible split turtle macro maps. A big map doesn't mean it can't be exciting and aggressive and be full of multitask.
On June 06 2013 08:02 scypio wrote: I don't like this, we get more maps with rush distances sooooo long. Klontas Mire was one of the few were you could successfully pressure the enemy without going all-in. And it will be replaced with another map that will take a week to get into your opponent's nat.
Guess Blizzard does not like aggressive play
We've come a long way from the days of Incineration Zone and Steppes of War.
That's just stupid. There are vetos. I like to play faster games on smaller maps, I veto the huge ones - that seems reasonable for me. And it seems that soon I'll be able to choose from big maps and huge maps. This sucks.
I don't like both maps, but maybe because I am not used to these kinds of maps. We'll see when I get to play them more, just won my first game on Red City without knowing it in a cup, lolsss.
I'm dumbfounded. Best decision they have ever actually done. Though, the Sky Island is actually a poor map. Do not like it much. At least it's tournament-worthy =/
On June 06 2013 08:02 scypio wrote: I don't like this, we get more maps with rush distances sooooo long. Klontas Mire was one of the few were you could successfully pressure the enemy without going all-in. And it will be replaced with another map that will take a week to get into your opponent's nat.
Guess Blizzard does not like aggressive play
We've come a long way from the days of Incineration Zone and Steppes of War.
That's just stupid. There are vetos. I like to play faster games on smaller maps, I veto the huge ones - that seems reasonable for me. And it seems that soon I'll be able to choose from big maps and huge maps. This sucks.
You should blame the community for its overwhelming outcry against rush-friendly Blizzard maps over the past few years. The majority clamored for tournament maps for years, and now Blizzard has obliged, unfortunately to your detriment.
On June 06 2013 07:31 Poo wrote: wtf is with sky islands? is it 4 spawns or 2?
It's the proleague map, Korhal Floating Island originally, it's always cross-positions.
Doesn't really answer my question. I realize its a pro league map. But can you spawn top left/bottom right? Or is it only bottom left/top right? The little circles show what I assume are potential spawn sites?
On June 06 2013 07:31 Poo wrote: wtf is with sky islands? is it 4 spawns or 2?
It's the proleague map, Korhal Floating Island originally, it's always cross-positions.
Doesn't really answer my question. I realize its a pro league map. But can you spawn top left/bottom right? Or is it only bottom left/top right? The little circles show what I assume are potential spawn sites?
I don't like sky islands, I don't like the aspect of spawning in the top left and bottom right. They seem really weird and I guess i'll have to play it first.
On June 06 2013 07:31 Poo wrote: wtf is with sky islands? is it 4 spawns or 2?
It's the proleague map, Korhal Floating Island originally, it's always cross-positions.
Doesn't really answer my question. I realize its a pro league map. But can you spawn top left/bottom right? Or is it only bottom left/top right? The little circles show what I assume are potential spawn sites?
On June 06 2013 07:31 Poo wrote: wtf is with sky islands? is it 4 spawns or 2?
It's the proleague map, Korhal Floating Island originally, it's always cross-positions.
Doesn't really answer my question. I realize its a pro league map. But can you spawn top left/bottom right? Or is it only bottom left/top right? The little circles show what I assume are potential spawn sites?
The map is always cross position, but yes you can either spawn top/bottom or left/right.
On June 06 2013 08:02 scypio wrote: I don't like this, we get more maps with rush distances sooooo long. Klontas Mire was one of the few were you could successfully pressure the enemy without going all-in. And it will be replaced with another map that will take a week to get into your opponent's nat.
Guess Blizzard does not like aggressive play
We've come a long way from the days of Incineration Zone and Steppes of War.
That's just stupid. There are vetos. I like to play faster games on smaller maps, I veto the huge ones - that seems reasonable for me. And it seems that soon I'll be able to choose from big maps and huge maps. This sucks.
You should blame the community for its overwhelming outcry against rush-friendly Blizzard maps over the past few years. The majority clamored for tournament maps for years, and now Blizzard has obliged, unfortunately to your detriment.
Yes! I blame the community for not having at least 3 rush-friendly maps in the map pool.
Red city sucks, I would probably fall asleep before I find my opponent. I takes 70+ ingame seconds to reach the nat at the other side of the map.
The other something map is also way longer than the Klontas Mire (~65 travel distance vs ~50) and the NW/SE spawns seem gimmicky.
That's one step closer to macrocraft. I am disappointed.
On June 06 2013 07:31 Poo wrote: wtf is with sky islands? is it 4 spawns or 2?
It's the proleague map, Korhal Floating Island originally, it's always cross-positions.
Doesn't really answer my question. I realize its a pro league map. But can you spawn top left/bottom right? Or is it only bottom left/top right? The little circles show what I assume are potential spawn sites?
The map is always cross position, but yes you can either spawn top/bottom or left/right.
interesting. Well at least ladder will have more variety. I'm liking that they're trying to create a wider range of game styles on ladder. Makes it a lot more interesting to play.
On June 06 2013 07:31 Poo wrote: wtf is with sky islands? is it 4 spawns or 2?
It's the proleague map, Korhal Floating Island originally, it's always cross-positions.
Doesn't really answer my question. I realize its a pro league map. But can you spawn top left/bottom right? Or is it only bottom left/top right? The little circles show what I assume are potential spawn sites?
I hope to god the answer is yes
Afaik, both cross-spawn positions are enabled.
1Rax FE to kill rocks early and go quadruple CC island hog woot woot!
Remove two terrible maps. Add a clunker and a good one. I'll take it.
On June 06 2013 08:45 shin_toss wrote: add DF Atlas too :D. Anyway good stuff
Would have preferred this by far over Red City, which is a decent map but not substantively different than Whirlwind which we had for a long time, and Tal'Darim Altar before that. In fact, we haven't had a good small rotational 4 player map ever on ladder, and we've already had two large 4 player maps spanning a huge amount of time previously.
But we do get an admirable replacement in the "nonstandard" category for Klontas Mire, in Korhal Sky Island. Overall this is probably the single best ladder pool update that has ever occurred.
Before you rejoice, think about how sad that is.
Anyway, I'm encouraged and satisfied. If we get TLMC maps after this, we'll be on a roll!
Out of curiosity what was peoples opinion of Zerus? I haven't played much ladder this season but I've only had 2 games of that map, I'm assuming everyone just veto'd it. I can't believe a beta map as bad as star station is still in the pool (and even worse still in tournament play, almost a throw-back to when Xel'Naga Caverns was a regular tournament map, crazy).
Focusing on the positives though with Mitr out I now have a free veto and the two new additions look very good.
On June 06 2013 08:02 scypio wrote: I don't like this, we get more maps with rush distances sooooo long. Klontas Mire was one of the few were you could successfully pressure the enemy without going all-in. And it will be replaced with another map that will take a week to get into your opponent's nat.
Guess Blizzard does not like aggressive play
We've come a long way from the days of Incineration Zone and Steppes of War.
That's just stupid. There are vetos. I like to play faster games on smaller maps, I veto the huge ones - that seems reasonable for me. And it seems that soon I'll be able to choose from big maps and huge maps. This sucks.
You should blame the community for its overwhelming outcry against rush-friendly Blizzard maps over the past few years. The majority clamored for tournament maps for years, and now Blizzard has obliged, unfortunately to your detriment.
Yes! I blame the community for not having at least 3 rush-friendly maps in the map pool.
Red city sucks, I would probably fall asleep before I find my opponent. I takes 70+ ingame seconds to reach the nat at the other side of the map.
The other something map is also way longer than the Klontas Mire (~65 travel distance vs ~50) and the NW/SE spawns seem gimmicky.
That's one step closer to macrocraft. I am disappointed.
They do listen! WOOT Korhal floating (sky) island!
On June 06 2013 08:46 geokilla wrote: Anyone got VODs on what Korhal Sky Land is like? Also anyone know what spawning locations will be like?
Pretty much any Proleague series in the last 3 weeks. Spawns are cross only, as you'll notice the layout of NW/SE is very different than NE/SW. Basically depending on which cross set you spawn, it plays very differently.
On June 06 2013 07:31 Poo wrote: wtf is with sky islands? is it 4 spawns or 2?
It's the proleague map, Korhal Floating Island originally, it's always cross-positions.
Doesn't really answer my question. I realize its a pro league map. But can you spawn top left/bottom right? Or is it only bottom left/top right? The little circles show what I assume are potential spawn sites?
I hope to god the answer is yes
Afaik, both cross-spawn positions are enabled.
1Rax FE to kill rocks early and go quadruple CC island hog woot woot!
Coincidentally, 1rax fe is the only build that I do lol.
On June 06 2013 08:02 scypio wrote: I don't like this, we get more maps with rush distances sooooo long. Klontas Mire was one of the few were you could successfully pressure the enemy without going all-in. And it will be replaced with another map that will take a week to get into your opponent's nat.
Guess Blizzard does not like aggressive play
We've come a long way from the days of Incineration Zone and Steppes of War.
That's just stupid. There are vetos. I like to play faster games on smaller maps, I veto the huge ones - that seems reasonable for me. And it seems that soon I'll be able to choose from big maps and huge maps. This sucks.
You should blame the community for its overwhelming outcry against rush-friendly Blizzard maps over the past few years. The majority clamored for tournament maps for years, and now Blizzard has obliged, unfortunately to your detriment.
Yes! I blame the community for not having at least 3 rush-friendly maps in the map pool.
Red city sucks, I would probably fall asleep before I find my opponent. I takes 70+ ingame seconds to reach the nat at the other side of the map.
The other something map is also way longer than the Klontas Mire (~65 travel distance vs ~50) and the NW/SE spawns seem gimmicky.
That's one step closer to macrocraft. I am disappointed.
sucks to be you, I love macrocraft.
Glad to see those two lousy maps gone.
Nah, it's pretty good to be me. I'll just have to go proxy everything on these stupid maps to make the lives of the NR15 people more interesting
Good that they removed those maps. Boring maps to replace them with tho. Red city is so big and you always have to attack up a ramp or in a choke so the more you turtle the better. The other map looks decent, however I'd have liked to see some new not-so-big two player maps, kind of like the size of Neo Planet S.
hell yeah! Terran will love Red City LE with the small chokes, and especially that raised section at the nat to plonk some seige tanks on!! Zerg will love Korhal for its width, and cross spawn large sides for muta harass :D
Both maps look really hard to secure a third though =[
On June 06 2013 08:46 Greendotz wrote: Out of curiosity what was peoples opinion of Zerus? I haven't played much ladder this season but I've only had 2 games of that map, I'm assuming everyone just veto'd it. I can't believe a beta map as bad as star station is still in the pool (and even worse still in tournament play, almost a throw-back to when Xel'Naga Caverns was a regular tournament map, crazy).
Focusing on the positives though with Mitr out I now have a free veto and the two new additions look very good.
I liked Zerus, but that's probably because I play Zerg and only played a few times on it. I definitely prefer Red City (another potentially Zerg favored macro-map) over Zerus though.
I think Derelict Watcher got more praise than it deserved; it's just that Klontas Mire was so awful that you couldn't help but think Derelict was good by comparison. It hasn't been used in any (real) tournaments for good reason.
They should remove Derelict Watcher and Star Station and add the new OGN maps, to be in sync with WCS like they said they would. New Fighting Spirit also should've been a top candidate
Man if only Fighting Spirit isnt so protoss-heavy, it coulda been featured in the next 25 seasons
I would also love to see Naro Station replaces Akilon (NR30, stale PvZ etc) or Belshir Vestige (too linear, too Ohana). Its latest rendition is played out quite nicely, no more toss-favored
Oh and Gwangari Beach sounds like best map ever already
I think I would prefare Zerus Prime in map pool than Red City. I feel like later in season it'll just become a forcefield-fest. but itll probably help with low protoss win rates atm.
I wont veto any tho Veto'ing a map is just lame. Just deal with it.
hmm the version they add now is the new one right with neutral depots/rocks on the ramps so you can infact wall off much easier?
that said I still think it's a dodgy map. There are lot's of cute idea's in it but I'm not so sure if they are good for the game: - cross spawnings only but completely different if it's 11 v 5 o clock or 2 vs 8 o clock, kinda funky for pro tournaments where the random spawning has such a big influence. - entrance through main is not through natural but something in the middle, maps like these so far have all been crap but this one does make it more interesting by having a double entrance. - potentially super close air distance between naturals
It certainly is a refreshing map, I like how blink/reaper play is kept a bit in check but despite that I still think zerg is screwed and it's too much of a terran map. The natural positioning and the relative position of the thirds make medivacs too strong imo
i know its good to replace bad maps but do you really want to change the maps everyday blizzard?? god i cant even remember where to send my overloadr in the old maps....
Important Note: When this blog was initially published, it was missing a 1v1 map that will be added to the Season 4 map pool -- Newkirk Precinct TE (an adaptation of Proleague's Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct, which is based on Blizzard's original Newkirk District). The blog has been updated to include an image.
Important Note: When this blog was initially published, it was missing a 1v1 map that will be added to the Season 4 map pool -- Newkirk Precinct TE (an adaptation of Proleague's Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct, which is based on Blizzard's original Newkirk District). The blog has been updated to include an image.
yeah i like the new tournament edition WAAY more, should be included in the maintopic, no watchtowers, and more route to attack -> less splitmap stalemate situation, NICE
Terran has a 12% win rate in tournament play on Red City against Zerg.
Korhal Floating Island is a joke of a map.....zergling rush wins every game since it's not just that 1 4 building opening to main, but there are 2x 4 building openings so if he put the command center zerg could have just come from the other side.
Important Note: When this blog was initially published, it was missing a 1v1 map that will be added to the Season 4 map pool -- Newkirk Precinct TE (an adaptation of Proleague's Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct, which is based on Blizzard's original Newkirk District). The blog has been updated to include an image.
Oh SICK. I hated the original map since it led to so many split-map games, but the SPL rendition had looked decent so far. This just makes an already good map pool even better.
Fucking awesome news, I had Mire and Prime vetoed since day 1. I've only played 1 match on red city and none on floating island but they seem to produce good and varied matches
I wanted to play on Red City. I'm not sure how to feel about Newkirk being back. I never actually played on Klontas Mire, the veto (and everyone else's vetoes) seemed to keep it at bay. I'll miss Zerus Prime, personally.
Test versions of Gwangalli Beach and Anaconda are on the KR/TW server. However, if Blizzard do what they always do, I think Gwangalli Beach will be changed massively (I'd expect all the beach part to be removed at least) by the time it becomes LE.
I will always think back fondly of my days going 10 pool every game on klontus mire, and going blind 3 hatch before pool on zerus prime. I will miss both of these maps dearly.
On June 06 2013 10:44 a176 wrote: Why does korhal sky have two entrances? How are you supposed to wall off?
Do what players on the map have been doing, wall off one ramp with buildings and knock down the rocks at the other ramp. The long rush distance makes this viable for conventional defense.
Also, the OP should be updated, turns out Newkirk Precinct TE is also being added.
On June 06 2013 10:59 TheLetterQ wrote: I will always think back fondly of my days going 10 pool every game on klontus mire, and going blind 3 hatch before pool on zerus prime. I will miss both of these maps dearly.
Good riddance to Klontas Mire! (Even the name sounds disgusting...) I only played two games on that map, and those were two very unpleasant games.
Very happy about the new maps, and I really love the "2 maps in 1" style of Sky City. Spawning top left and bottom right would be reeeally weird though, especially in Protoss matchups.
On June 06 2013 11:58 Zealot Lord wrote: I don't really watch much proleague so how do protoss open against zerg in Korhal island? Gateway expands 100% of the time?
balance asided, I liked those two maps' look (Klontas Mire and Zerus Prime, especially Zerus) there are too many city looking maps and not enough that shows off the different planet's landscape. Neo planet S is also disappointing for a snow map
Test versions of Gwangalli Beach and Anaconda are on the KR/TW server. However, if Blizzard do what they always do, I think Gwangalli Beach will be changed massively (I'd expect all the beach part to be removed at least) by the time it becomes LE.
Glad to see their worst new additions removed. And I know where my newly acquired veto will go to (fuck Korhal Sky Island).
Also, I find it hilarious that two of their "Tournament Edition" maps were the first to be removed.
And any ideas on if they'll ever update the vs AI maps? I hate Korhal City with a passion (all Korhal maps apparently). And I don't like Newkirk Precinct. Yes, the update is better, but it doesn't change the fact that I generally don't like it (the update is like 100x better though).
On June 06 2013 12:35 Pimpmuckl wrote: Hmm Korhal Sky looks really really cool, can't wait to see the next WCS Season unfold!
It's not cool. It's forced cross spawns, which means the map is played 2 different ways based on luck. Played the standard way, I don't mind, but the top left+bottom right cross spawns leaves you with 2 open chokes that can be closed off by destructible rocks and gives you a relatively free expansion (if you can defend the 2 stupid chokes first). It's such a gimmicky map, it's so annoying.
As someone who doesn't watch a lot of Proleague, is it actually possible for Protoss to Forge Fast Expand on Korhal Sky Island in the 11-5 positions? The way I'm looking at it, it seems you'd need to wall off two locations which would take forever. Mutalisks and drops also seem ludicrously good on this map; how does Protoss keep them away from the natural when they have a 270-degree angle in which to do their thing?
On June 06 2013 13:36 Salivanth wrote: As someone who doesn't watch a lot of Proleague, is it actually possible for Protoss to Forge Fast Expand on Korhal Sky Island in the 11-5 positions? The way I'm looking at it, it seems you'd need to wall off two locations which would take forever. Mutalisks and drops also seem ludicrously good on this map; how does Protoss keep them away from the natural when they have a 270-degree angle in which to do their thing?
Yes you can FFE. There's breakable rocks at both sides of the ramp, they wall at one side and break the rocks on the other. JuicyJames posted all the PvZ VODs on Korhal Island in this thread a few posts back. You can see for yourself.
They're on KR and NA servers (and probably the rest), search for OGN. For whatever dumb reason, searching for 'Anaconda' or 'Beach' won't show any results.
Both Anaconda and Gwangalli Beach seem really strange, even for OGN standards (the scenery, that is). I do like the layouts though, they are pretty strange, but seem like they should be balanced. Anaconda seem similar to Floating Island and the Beach reminds me of Naru Station.
They're on KR and NA servers (and probably the rest), search for OGN. For whatever dumb reason, searching for 'Anaconda' or 'Beach' won't show any results.
What the...
I thought we had learned... WATER SUCKS! Drains all the performance, Ironman should be able to tell you about that. Also Blizzard doesn't like it on ladder.
Also is Gwangali beach even properly mirrored? I really don't think asymetrical balance is something to try when you are in a position where you can get your maps on ladder...
On June 06 2013 16:26 Dvriel wrote: can anybody explain me how is Terran supposed to put his buildings(7-8 rax,2 SP and 1 Factory+20 depots) in the Korhal Island map????
There's enough place in the main and natural, no matter the spawns. And you can only support this many buildings when at least on 3 bases and then you've got the places around the third as well.
I like that Klontas and Zerus are removed and Korhal Island and Red City are in, both maps play quite differently from the standard maps without having major balance issues. However I don't really understand why they would bring Newkirk Precinct back in. This map is either split-map or heavy all-in (proxy 2-rax, Roach-Nydus) all day long, I'll probably veto it right away
Really looking forward to play on Korhal Sky Island! Definitely gonna create some more variation on the ladder. The reworked newkirk looks good as well, since it wont be as turtle friendly anymore due to the more exposed base with rocks and smaller main. Sick city!
On June 06 2013 16:26 Dvriel wrote: can anybody explain me how is Terran supposed to put his buildings(7-8 rax,2 SP and 1 Factory+20 depots) in the Korhal Island map????
There's enough place in the main and natural, no matter the spawns. And you can only support this many buildings when at least on 3 bases and then you've got the places around the third as well.
I like that Klontas and Zerus are removed and Korhal Island and Red City are in, both maps play quite differently from the standard maps without having major balance issues. However I don't really understand why they would bring Newkirk Precinct back in. This map is either split-map or heavy all-in (proxy 2-rax, Roach-Nydus) all day long, I'll probably veto it right away
It's a new version of Newkirk with some major changes that opens up the middle of the map, discouraging the split-map play that had plagued the old Newkirk.
On June 06 2013 16:53 Prugelhugel wrote: Is Red City cross spawns only?
No, I played in in custom game and my opponent spawned elsewhere.
I wonder how scouting works out in such scenario, it takes ~80 seconds to move accross the map, if you insta-scout with your initial worker you may find your opponent at 240 seconds into the game heh.
I'll miss Klontus Mire, it always felt dangerous going across that middle ground point. Korhal Sky Island looks bad ass can't wait to try it.
New Newkirk still seems like it favors protoss with warp prism + sentry walloff play in the main. Still the smaller bases will be helpful in detecting that.
On June 06 2013 16:26 Dvriel wrote: can anybody explain me how is Terran supposed to put his buildings(7-8 rax,2 SP and 1 Factory+20 depots) in the Korhal Island map????
Build towards where you want your 3rd and use it as a wall to take your expansion in TvZ. I dunno vs P or T
On June 06 2013 18:13 Sated wrote: Korhal Sky Island is an instant veto. A map that can spawn two different maps? One of which has the most retarded main/nat set-up I have seen since the beta? No thanks.
Finally something new in maps and insta veto. Don't you guys like Innovation? :D
On June 06 2013 18:13 Sated wrote: Korhal Sky Island is an instant veto. A map that can spawn two different maps? One of which has the most retarded main/nat set-up I have seen since the beta? No thanks.
Finally something new in maps and insta veto. Don't you guys like Innovation? :D
It is the same story everytime new maps are introduced, any map that is different from the standard is instant-veto'd by the majority. I wish I could do a reverse veto, which cancels a veto from the other player.
Also really what is the problem you can have two different maps depending on spawn location? As soon as the game starts you know which map it is, it literally means you have to wait 10 seconds longer to know which map you will be playing on.
Personally I also have some doubts about Korhal, for example the very small main at one spawn location makes it hard to put all buildings in it (and for example in TvT I think siege tanks should reach quite a bit of the natural, so placing your buildings behind the mineral line there also is a bad idea). And I wonder how that natural plays out, since air units have a much shorter route than anything else. But I wont be insta-vetoing it.
the Writhing Morass 4v4 map looks bad. I hate maps with bases that have mains easily sieged and cannoned, sucks to be in that position. Glad klontas mire was out, i had to veto that map. Good stuff all round
How do you defend a 6pool or 10pool as terran on sky island 11-5 spawn? You can't wall this huge ramp and you definitely can't destroy the rocks before the lings arrive
I'm glad about the removals but the new 1v1 maps are terrible. They are one of the reasons why I don't care about proleague (that and the pointless series of Bo1s).
Zeru Prime, I barely new thou. (was I the only one liking this map? I think I am 100% on it (but only like 6 games lol)) Starstation still here, why? And that other map that looks like startstation but is only 2 players and basicly has no infrastructure but is just open space, such a horror tvz map.
I request a strategy guide on how to wall on Korhal Island^^
The only problem I've had with playing Red City is that there is nowhere to build production as Terran. The main is freakishly small, and there is no room in the natural. I feel like I can't fit 3 bases worth of production in unless I am extremely cautious about it.
I didn't hate either Klontas Mire or Zerus Prime (I quite liked the latter) but I'm happy to see them replaced with these maps. I have concerns that the redesigned Newkirk Precinct still may not be that interesting to play, and as for Korhal Sky Island I find the sheer number of destructible objects between the main and natural at the 11 and 5 spawn positions very awkward and confusing (there are six, no less).
Really interested to see how it all plays out, though - it's just a shame this increased use of GSL and Proleague maps on the ladder came too late for Abyssal City!
On June 06 2013 21:52 VieuxSinge wrote: How do you defend a 6pool or 10pool as terran on sky island 11-5 spawn? You can't wall this huge ramp and you definitely can't destroy the rocks before the lings arrive
Did you see the two additional maps created by Ongamenet that will be available for 2013 WCS Season 2: Gwangalli Beach LE and Anaconda LE (but not on ladder) ???
Instant veto for Red city. I'll work with Korhal. Glad to see New Kirk back.
People complain about the lack of diversity in the map pool, but Red City's natural design is too retarded to not comment on. Instead of creating different chokes and base set-ups I would rather see some variation in the set up of the middle areas where many more significant action occurs.
I wish I had two more hands to give Red city four thumbs down.
They removed the 2 map i had veto'd, and added 2 cools maps. Will have to check Newkirk Precinct TE, but it seems most of the flaws of the original map have been removed.
On June 06 2013 22:31 VieuxSinge wrote: Did you see the two additional maps created by Ongamenet that will be available for 2013 WCS Season 2: Gwangalli Beach LE and Anaconda LE (but not on ladder) ???
The 4v4 map pools looks more stupid every season, but the 1v1 map pool looks good! I'm sad about the removal of Zerus Prime though, but I guess they have a good reason to remove it. Klontas didn't last long, which is good. That was the worst map in a long long time xD
Played 2 games on Klontas Mire and vetoed it. It's the only map I vetoed. Too bad about Zerus Prime. As a Zerg player, I had really high winrate on that map
The two new maps seem really cool. Also, NewKirk Precint is new map for me as this was my first season on ladder. So, I basically get 3 new maps
Nice to see Newkirk be edited and placed into the new season. The old Newkirk Precinct was my best map by far.
Good thing Zerus is out, I hated that map with a passion. Same with Klontas, it was just too different for me to adjust. Not saying it was a bad map, I just personally disliked it.
On June 07 2013 03:37 awakenx wrote: Nice to see Newkirk be edited and placed into the new season. The old Newkirk Precinct was my best map by far.
Good thing Zerus is out, I hated that map with a passion. Same with Klontas, it was just too different for me to adjust. Not saying it was a bad map, I just personally disliked it.
You can say it, it was an awfuly bad map. I'm looking foward to more GSL/KeSPA maps in the ladder pool!
Good to see that Klontas Mire TE didn't survive more than one season, I really want to see the stats on how many players had it on veto.
On Zerus Prime TE I'm a bit torn, I really liked the map but I guess not watching it in a tournament setting the middle could be a very nice stalemate situation?
Red City LE Awesome, have been wanted to play this map on ladder, x-spawn only?
Korhal Sky Island LE Depending on the spawn position I will either hate or love the map, when you have the destructible rocks I feel like theres too much space to cover as terran.
Newkirk Precinct TE Thought the map would been added the last season so it's good move by Blizzard to add it now! One season late..
Having two additional maps thats not on the ladder is so fucking stupid. The WCS maps should ofc ONLY be ladder maps!
Pleasantly surprised we're getting some good changes. Would have like to see Kewkirk removed completely but the changes do improve it as a map. Sky Island is a fun map and Red City has proven itself to create better games than I thought it would at first.
I'm sad to see my beloved District 10 go but its nice to have some fresh 4v4 maps. Primordial Grave looks decent if a little rush friendly, which is OK considering how huge the 4v4 maps have gotten. Writhing Morass looks fun but I am worried that having two mains seigable from the lowground will be imba. It reminds me of Lava Flow - not sure how I feel about that considering that map created some very odd strategies.
Fun Fact: Sky Harvester was by far the Largest map ever used in the ladder pool
Red City = Terran IMBA? I dunno, just seems way too easy to defend 3rd and 4th, and I think most people agree that Terrans are REALLY strong with 3rd and 4th.
With the start of Season 4 on the StarCraft II ladder coming soon, we’ve published several new maps for you to enjoy, including Korhal Sky Island LE, a former OGN Proleague 1v1 map that you’ll see the best players in the world competing on in the World Championship Series.
At this time, Korhal Sky Island is exhibiting some behavior that players won’t expect:
The “Your Ranked Season Average” information on the Performance tab of the Score Screen does not show at the end of the game.
Play on this map does not count toward some economy, ranked/unranked, and melee combat achievements.
The “Surrender” button is a “Quit” button.
We’re working on solutions for all of the above, and we will fix them in a future patch. We decided that it was better to publish the map with a few issues now, so that everyone can enjoy playing it, as we don’t have any concerns that should affect gameplay, balance, or performance. And again, these are only issues with Korhal Sky Island. No other maps are affected.
As always, thank you for your patience and understanding, and we’ll see you on the ladder in 2013 Season 4!
With the start of Season 4 on the StarCraft II ladder coming soon, we’ve published several new maps for you to enjoy, including Korhal Sky Island LE, a former OGN Proleague 1v1 map that you’ll see the best players in the world competing on in the World Championship Series.
At this time, Korhal Sky Island is exhibiting some behavior that players won’t expect:
The “Your Ranked Season Average” information on the Performance tab of the Score Screen does not show at the end of the game.
Play on this map does not count toward some economy, ranked/unranked, and melee combat achievements.
The “Surrender” button is a “Quit” button.
We’re working on solutions for all of the above, and we will fix them in a future patch. We decided that it was better to publish the map with a few issues now, so that everyone can enjoy playing it, as we don’t have any concerns that should affect gameplay, balance, or performance. And again, these are only issues with Korhal Sky Island. No other maps are affected.
As always, thank you for your patience and understanding, and we’ll see you on the ladder in 2013 Season 4!
i.e., clueless Blizz devs can't figure out how to make the map melee (a very simple fix)
thank you blizzard, these maps u are removing were just horrible. red city and floating island are pretty cool. i dont like split map situations on newkirk though.
On June 06 2013 21:52 VieuxSinge wrote: How do you defend a 6pool or 10pool as terran on sky island 11-5 spawn? You can't wall this huge ramp and you definitely can't destroy the rocks before the lings arrive
You don't need a wall to defend a 6 pool. As for 10 pool I'm not sure, get a friend to 10 pool you a few times and try different things, I'm sure you can figure something out.
can someone explain how spawning is going to work on sky island? Are both spawning options open where you can spawn behind the destructible rocks? or is it just the one with the ramp to the nat.
so they're removing 2 interesting maps to add 1 interesting map and 1 boring map. They should keep 1 of the 2 they're getting rid of and remove Newkirk.
I'm okay with seeing Klontas going away. It was a fun map to start but bridge control was too hard to keep for either side so it was like being reeeeeeeeally close the whole time with a ton of space that you /could/ use.
On June 08 2013 06:53 Neneu wrote: Don't understand why so many are enjoying the addition of red city, the amount of tight chokes in that map is unreal. Awfull, awfull map.
Yeah my friend plays a lot of mech and as Z I'm just not sure how play against it. There is almost nowhere to engage the tank line.
On June 08 2013 06:53 Neneu wrote: Don't understand why so many are enjoying the addition of red city, the amount of tight chokes in that map is unreal. Awfull, awfull map.
Yeah my friend plays a lot of mech and as Z I'm just not sure how play against it. There is almost nowhere to engage the tank line.
"i hate xxx it's so bad /post" "xx looks awful" "oh no not xx"
Why?? WHY IS MAP X SO BAD? So "Retarted"? Care to explain, sorry that the self-evident divine truth only you can see didn't make its way to me.
How come the post quality modding goes out the window every ladder map thread?
I for one welcome the new craziness of these maps. Shame about Klontas, having one rush map in rotation - whose tiny push becomes moot late game coz you can control the exit with any army at all - was fine.
On June 08 2013 06:53 Neneu wrote: Don't understand why so many are enjoying the addition of red city, the amount of tight chokes in that map is unreal. Awfull, awfull map.
Yeah my friend plays a lot of mech and as Z I'm just not sure how play against it. There is almost nowhere to engage the tank line.
On June 08 2013 06:53 Neneu wrote: Don't understand why so many are enjoying the addition of red city, the amount of tight chokes in that map is unreal. Awfull, awfull map.
Yeah my friend plays a lot of mech and as Z I'm just not sure how play against it. There is almost nowhere to engage the tank line.
Blinding cloud + mech + choke = fun sexy times
He 2 bases :p If it was 3 base push that wouldn't be a problem. But 2 base it is too quick to get out vipers unless i'm doing something terribly wrong..
On June 08 2013 22:11 DaemonX wrote: Seriously, fuck 85% of the people in this thread.
"i hate xxx it's so bad /post" "xx looks awful" "oh no not xx"
Why?? WHY IS MAP X SO BAD? So "Retarted"? Care to explain, sorry that the self-evident divine truth only you can see didn't make its way to me.
How come the post quality modding goes out the window every ladder map thread?
People hate new maps but are tired of playing the same shit for over a year. You can't please anyone.
One thing I wish Blizzard did was add more maps to the pool and give out more vetoes. As a casual player I get very bored for playing on the same 7 maps, I rather have a map pool of 15 maps and more vetoes.
OK korhal stupid island is a over the top unbalanced. The left to right spawns are not even playable in PvZ, and in PvP it's only colossus wars because you can just sit your colossus at the back of the natural expansion and you can kill it over and over without losing anything.
Whoever came up with that map should be put in jail
On June 08 2013 06:53 Neneu wrote: Don't understand why so many are enjoying the addition of red city, the amount of tight chokes in that map is unreal. Awfull, awfull map.
Yeah my friend plays a lot of mech and as Z I'm just not sure how play against it. There is almost nowhere to engage the tank line.
Blinding cloud + mech + choke = fun sexy times
He 2 bases :p If it was 3 base push that wouldn't be a problem. But 2 base it is too quick to get out vipers unless i'm doing something terribly wrong..
On June 08 2013 22:11 DaemonX wrote: Seriously, fuck 85% of the people in this thread.
"i hate xxx it's so bad /post" "xx looks awful" "oh no not xx"
Why?? WHY IS MAP X SO BAD? So "Retarted"? Care to explain, sorry that the self-evident divine truth only you can see didn't make its way to me.
How come the post quality modding goes out the window every ladder map thread?
People hate new maps but are tired of playing the same shit for over a year. You can't please anyone.
One thing I wish Blizzard did was add more maps to the pool and give out more vetoes. As a casual player I get very bored for playing on the same 7 maps, I rather have a map pool of 15 maps and more vetoes.
I wish Blizzard would give fewer veto's, so I actually get to play interesting maps, while currently every non-standard map is insta-veto'd by a large number of players.
On June 08 2013 22:11 DaemonX wrote: Seriously, fuck 85% of the people in this thread.
"i hate xxx it's so bad /post" "xx looks awful" "oh no not xx"
Why?? WHY IS MAP X SO BAD? So "Retarted"? Care to explain, sorry that the self-evident divine truth only you can see didn't make its way to me.
How come the post quality modding goes out the window every ladder map thread?
People hate new maps but are tired of playing the same shit for over a year. You can't please anyone.
One thing I wish Blizzard did was add more maps to the pool and give out more vetoes. As a casual player I get very bored for playing on the same 7 maps, I rather have a map pool of 15 maps and more vetoes.
I wish Blizzard would give fewer veto's, so I actually get to play interesting maps, while currently every non-standard map is insta-veto'd by a large number of players.
Annoying that they add 3 maps, remove two and don't add one more veto. Soon I'll have to all-in every map I play ZvZ due to how you can't overlord scout in time on most new additions, so boring.
On June 08 2013 06:53 Neneu wrote: Don't understand why so many are enjoying the addition of red city, the amount of tight chokes in that map is unreal. Awfull, awfull map.
Yeah my friend plays a lot of mech and as Z I'm just not sure how play against it. There is almost nowhere to engage the tank line.
Blinding cloud + mech + choke = fun sexy times
He 2 bases :p If it was 3 base push that wouldn't be a problem. But 2 base it is too quick to get out vipers unless i'm doing something terribly wrong..
Get swarmhosts and muta :D
2 base push? I heard mass roaches are good against half-maxed armies. They tend to die to the 160-supply 3 base pushes though.
On June 08 2013 22:11 DaemonX wrote: Seriously, fuck 85% of the people in this thread.
"i hate xxx it's so bad /post" "xx looks awful" "oh no not xx"
Why?? WHY IS MAP X SO BAD? So "Retarted"? Care to explain, sorry that the self-evident divine truth only you can see didn't make its way to me.
How come the post quality modding goes out the window every ladder map thread?
People hate new maps but are tired of playing the same shit for over a year. You can't please anyone.
One thing I wish Blizzard did was add more maps to the pool and give out more vetoes. As a casual player I get very bored for playing on the same 7 maps, I rather have a map pool of 15 maps and more vetoes.
I wish Blizzard would give fewer veto's, so I actually get to play interesting maps, while currently every non-standard map is insta-veto'd by a large number of players.
maps are picked before the players are matched up
So first a map is picked, and then it waits until an opponent is available with the same map picked? How do GM players ever get an opponent with such a system?
I like it. I'm excited to play on pretty much all of these, though I actually did like zerus. Hopefully including these makes it easier for aspiring pros to practice for tournaments. I'm excited to see which maps they take from the TLMC too. Blizzard's decisions this year have been pretty good imo.
In addition to these nine maps on the 1v1 ladder, there are two additional maps created by Ongamenet that will be available for 2013 WCS Season 2: Gwangalli Beach LE and Anaconda LE. These two maps bring the total WCS 2013 Season 2 map pool to 11; however, they will not be published to the ladder.
why call it LE when you're not publishing it on ladder?!
On June 08 2013 22:11 DaemonX wrote: Seriously, fuck 85% of the people in this thread.
"i hate xxx it's so bad /post" "xx looks awful" "oh no not xx"
Why?? WHY IS MAP X SO BAD? So "Retarted"? Care to explain, sorry that the self-evident divine truth only you can see didn't make its way to me.
How come the post quality modding goes out the window every ladder map thread?
People hate new maps but are tired of playing the same shit for over a year. You can't please anyone.
One thing I wish Blizzard did was add more maps to the pool and give out more vetoes. As a casual player I get very bored for playing on the same 7 maps, I rather have a map pool of 15 maps and more vetoes.
I wish Blizzard would give fewer veto's, so I actually get to play interesting maps, while currently every non-standard map is insta-veto'd by a large number of players.
If Blizzard gave me less vetoes than I needed to remove the maps that I don't like, I simply wouldn't ladder. I'd play custom games with teammates/friends on maps that I do like instead. I imagine a lot of other people would do the same thing.
I don't think so. Because you would quickly get bored of only playing against a few others, not to mention many won't even have nearly enough people in their friendslist with roughly similar skill.
But even then, if that means I get to play all the maps, fine for me.
Not sure if all of the new maps are like this, but to quit on Korhal Sky Island you have to press Q for quit instead of the normal surrender. I remember this happened another time when they rolled out new maps.
korhal skyland's top left and bottom right spawns make absolutely no sense. i cant see this working.. ever? bottom left top right i love, but when youre playing pvz and you need to wall, you have to wall both sides with an awkward wall, and then you have to wall off a choke the size of china if you plan on taking a third base. which i never plan on taking lol
On June 11 2013 15:18 aBstractx wrote: korhal skyland's top left and bottom right spawns make absolutely no sense. i cant see this working.. ever? bottom left top right i love, but when youre playing pvz and you need to wall, you have to wall both sides with an awkward wall, and then you have to wall off a choke the size of china if you plan on taking a third base. which i never plan on taking lol
So instead of adapting and changing your play styles, you decide to shit on the map?
The map plays out fine and has produced a variety of excellent games (both macro and rush oriented) on Proleague.
I remember people complaining about Planet S when it was first introduced and people love it now.
On June 11 2013 15:18 aBstractx wrote: korhal skyland's top left and bottom right spawns make absolutely no sense. i cant see this working.. ever? bottom left top right i love, but when youre playing pvz and you need to wall, you have to wall both sides with an awkward wall, and then you have to wall off a choke the size of china if you plan on taking a third base. which i never plan on taking lol
Why? You can wall the map with 1 pylon and a gate on each side or 1 gate 1 cyber core. Or you can do it with 1 bunker 1 supply depot 1 side 1 barracks 1 depot on the other. Really there is no problem with this map you just complain before you even test it. You probably haven't even seen games on the map.
On June 11 2013 15:18 aBstractx wrote: korhal skyland's top left and bottom right spawns make absolutely no sense. i cant see this working.. ever? bottom left top right i love, but when youre playing pvz and you need to wall, you have to wall both sides with an awkward wall, and then you have to wall off a choke the size of china if you plan on taking a third base. which i never plan on taking lol
Why? You can wall the map with 1 pylon and a gate on each side or 1 gate 1 cyber core. Or you can do it with 1 bunker 1 supply depot 1 side 1 barracks 1 depot on the other. Really there is no problem with this map you just complain before you even test it. You probably haven't even seen games on the map.
I believe the last TvZ on this map was 2 months ago and it was a CC first which is a huge gamble on this map since I don't think it's possible to have a wall-off on this map going for a gasless 1 rax expand against a 10 pool.
On June 11 2013 15:18 aBstractx wrote: korhal skyland's top left and bottom right spawns make absolutely no sense. i cant see this working.. ever? bottom left top right i love, but when youre playing pvz and you need to wall, you have to wall both sides with an awkward wall, and then you have to wall off a choke the size of china if you plan on taking a third base. which i never plan on taking lol
So instead of adapting and changing your play styles, you decide to shit on the map?
The map plays out fine and has produced a variety of excellent games (both macro and rush oriented) on Proleague.
I remember people complaining about Planet S when it was first introduced and people love it now.
Seriously. That spawn is bad.Its for muta ownage vs T and P.
On June 11 2013 15:18 aBstractx wrote: korhal skyland's top left and bottom right spawns make absolutely no sense. i cant see this working.. ever? bottom left top right i love, but when youre playing pvz and you need to wall, you have to wall both sides with an awkward wall, and then you have to wall off a choke the size of china if you plan on taking a third base. which i never plan on taking lol
So instead of adapting and changing your play styles, you decide to shit on the map?
The map plays out fine and has produced a variety of excellent games (both macro and rush oriented) on Proleague.
I remember people complaining about Planet S when it was first introduced and people love it now.
Seriously. That spawn is bad.Its for muta ownage vs T and P.
Terran drops behind the natural expansion are pretty strong too.
Is anyone else's computer having trouble running the new maps? My frame rate on the new maps is notably lower than on the older maps, particularly on the new Newkirk Precinct TE map. I retested the old maps too and I'm having no problems on them.
I had to lower my graphics settings to ensure I never drop below 60 FPS on these new maps, which is annoying since the game was running fine in most situations before.
On June 12 2013 06:07 archwaykitten wrote: Is anyone else's computer having trouble running the new maps? My frame rate on the new maps is notably lower than on the older maps, particularly on the new Newkirk Precinct TE map. I retested the old maps too and I'm having no problems on them.
I had to lower my graphics settings to ensure I never drop below 60 FPS on these new maps, which is annoying since the game was running fine in most situations before.
Vetoed Korhal island because i just can't stand it.
Why oh why ? If you Attack move in a base that you can't see but there is a wall. Your units go there and destroy it. If there are rocks... your units go the other way arround.... and die to an army that you saw there... So instead i constantly have to scout if the rocks are down or not... But i can't do it with a ling (because tanks shoot you before you can see the rocks) and well... speed over dies to viking (but hey you scouted that the rocks was there and ... the terran noticed it and you lost an ovi for nothing). (i know that i'm not very clear but i'm tired and ... well not an english)
I really don't like it. For a low level player with a slow reaction time... If you take Akilon wastes and the other player have downed his rocks at his 3rd (and you have no vision of it). You attack with your army for the third... And it walks into the natural where all of the army his...
So ... no khoral island for me. Can't stand the fast rock block skyterran that follow. To hard for me to play against
Just narrowly avoided disaster on korhal island, vetoed right after. Maybe it is good in proleague, but because it messes with my wall I would veto it with all three of my votes if I could.
On June 12 2013 06:07 archwaykitten wrote: Is anyone else's computer having trouble running the new maps? My frame rate on the new maps is notably lower than on the older maps, particularly on the new Newkirk Precinct TE map. I retested the old maps too and I'm having no problems on them.
I had to lower my graphics settings to ensure I never drop below 60 FPS on these new maps, which is annoying since the game was running fine in most situations before.
Yes, I have the same issue on Newkirk.
I had a guy I was matched against have to quit because his framerate on Korhal was unplayable. He said he normally ran it on high smoothly but his FPS was tanking on medium settings.
My framerate hasn't been much better. On Red City it averages about 120FPS at the start of the game. It usually is around 190-200. I usually run it on high using an i5 3570k and a 6950 and have never had these kinds of issues before. Same with Korhal and Newkirk. Really resource intensive and don't run well. When I was offracing as Zerg on Newkirk I had to drop the quality settings. I never had to do that once the last two seasons.
Edit: And another thing, at least for Korhal, it has a different button to leave the game. It is Q rather than N.
On June 11 2013 15:18 aBstractx wrote: korhal skyland's top left and bottom right spawns make absolutely no sense. i cant see this working.. ever? bottom left top right i love, but when youre playing pvz and you need to wall, you have to wall both sides with an awkward wall, and then you have to wall off a choke the size of china if you plan on taking a third base. which i never plan on taking lol
Why? You can wall the map with 1 pylon and a gate on each side or 1 gate 1 cyber core. Or you can do it with 1 bunker 1 supply depot 1 side 1 barracks 1 depot on the other. Really there is no problem with this map you just complain before you even test it. You probably haven't even seen games on the map.
I believe the last TvZ on this map was 2 months ago and it was a CC first which is a huge gamble on this map since I don't think it's possible to have a wall-off on this map going for a gasless 1 rax expand against a 10 pool.
Now that I've played it it is entirely possible to stop a 10 pool going 1 rax expand, so long as you scout it. It is a 1 barracks, 2 depot, 1 bunker investment to stop it. Which is what you were going to build anyway then you can salvage the bunker. If he starts breaking through the rocks make another bunker and salvage that too. All in all it costs maybe 50 minerals to defend deviating from the normal 1 rax gasless expand and also maybe a few workers cut. You will be super far ahead.
First time I complain about a map but as a casual platinum toss, first impression is that Khoral Island is just bullshit. As a protoss, last couple of seasons' maps have been hard enough to wall against zergs (the race I struggle most against) because of the ramps getting bigger and bigger but with that double opening/ramp access to the natural, it just makes things harder. It's amazing that we got the prism acceleration buff, that sure did help me vs the fast pool followed by a 2 base roach ling I just experienced, when I wasn't even done walling the second entrance to my natural.
I don't veto maps ever because I (foolishly ?) believe they're all balanced and I'm supposed to learn to play all of them in a different way but jeez, it's hard enough to be a protoss lately, do we really need this kind of shit map to make it even harder ? By the the time I see how koreans do it and manage to try and reproduce it, we'll be in next season and map will probably disappear as it should. I don't know about other protoss platinum players (I guess everyone have their own nemesis) but the only race I'm struggling badly against is zerg, not because I think it's imba or anything but most (at my knob level) of the time, the biggest issue is the map setup.... doing a proper wall in vs zerg, one that's also economical is (more than) half the success in my pvz approach...fail to it and the match is over (whereas it doesn't matter that much vs terran and I can still fail but because my macro is bad or my engagements are lousy or my scouting is poor, but at least I get a chance to try and have a fun game). It was already tough with the ramps getting larger and larger in latest season maps (most of my zerg matches I try to build a wall the get busted one way or another, and if i defend it, I usually sacrify my economy for it, just delaying my unavoidable death), and now they start multiplying ramps/access points ? What's next ? 100% Open maps (with an even faster warp prism)?
I quickly browsed through the previous posts and it seems people are complaining about the third too. Just great, maybe in two months I'll get there, so I can realize it's messed up too.
I understand maps should be fine tuned for pros/masters/or even diamonds players...but this kind of map makes me feel no one gives a damn about us casual players,; what's the fun in those ? Lately, I load those and if I see the opponent is zerg, I know that if I don't cheese or do an all-in timing push, i can kiss the game goodbye. PvZ is already repetitive as shit (cheese or all-in or just forget about it, unless you're uber skilled ) and this kind of map makes it even worse.
I'm sure a lot of peeps will find the map great for one reason or another, but as a casual toss that's been struggling against zerg and zerg only because of the wall in/rush issues (all of us aren't pros), this is just irritating and makes me feel this hasn't been balanced at all (or at least not taking everyone into account). I don't mind losing at all, but at least I wanna feel I have a decent chance to win on every match/matchup, and this kind of map doesn't help me feel the game is giving me that opportunity. Maybe it's a first (and wrong) impression, but it is what it is right now, after my first game on it.
Last but not least : why in the name of god do 4 spawn points appear in the preview/loading screen when there's only 2 possible spawn points on the map ? I played a couple of days ago on one of the other new maps and it was already the case. I lost because I scouted the 4 sides of the map (my first play on it) before I found my opponent ( a toss brother), while he was already aware of this, and was cannon rushing me....do the guys who design the maps spend 2 months polishing the rocks and 15 minutes (including a coffee break) thinking about balance testing and fine tuning them ?
So after 3 weeks, I am done with these maps. They should remove all maps and add ~10 new maps. So boring, feel like I played these maps for ~2 years already.
On June 24 2013 05:35 Dingodile wrote: So after 3 weeks, I am done with these maps. They should remove all maps and add ~10 new maps. So boring, feel like I played these maps for ~2 years already.
good that more people start to notice that every map is THE SAME
On June 24 2013 05:17 Eurekastreet wrote: 1. First time I complain about a map but as a casual platinum toss, first impression is that Khoral Island is just bullshit. As a protoss, last couple of seasons' maps have been hard enough to wall against zergs (the race I struggle most against) because of the ramps getting bigger and bigger but with that double opening/ramp access to the natural, it just makes things harder. It's amazing that we got the prism acceleration buff, that sure did help me vs the fast pool followed by a 2 base roach ling I just experienced, when I wasn't even done walling the second entrance to my natural.
2. I don't veto maps ever because I (foolishly ?) believe they're all balanced and I'm supposed to learn to play all of them in a different way but jeez, it's hard enough to be a protoss lately, do we really need this kind of shit map to make it even harder ? By the the time I see how koreans do it and manage to try and reproduce it, we'll be in next season and map will probably disappear as it should. I don't know about other protoss platinum players (I guess everyone have their own nemesis) but the only race I'm struggling badly against is zerg, not because I think it's imba or anything but most (at my knob level) of the time, the biggest issue is the map setup.... doing a proper wall in vs zerg, one that's also economical is (more than) half the success in my pvz approach...fail to it and the match is over (whereas it doesn't matter that much vs terran and I can still fail but because my macro is bad or my engagements are lousy or my scouting is poor, but at least I get a chance to try and have a fun game). It was already tough with the ramps getting larger and larger in latest season maps (most of my zerg matches I try to build a wall the get busted one way or another, and if i defend it, I usually sacrify my economy for it, just delaying my unavoidable death), and now they start multiplying ramps/access points ? What's next ? 100% Open maps (with an even faster warp prism)?
3. I quickly browsed through the previous posts and it seems people are complaining about the third too. Just great, maybe in two months I'll get there, so I can realize it's messed up too.
4. I understand maps should be fine tuned for pros/masters/or even diamonds players...but this kind of map makes me feel no one gives a damn about us casual players,; what's the fun in those ? Lately, I load those and if I see the opponent is zerg, I know that if I don't cheese or do an all-in timing push, i can kiss the game goodbye. PvZ is already repetitive as shit (cheese or all-in or just forget about it, unless you're uber skilled ) and this kind of map makes it even worse.
5. I'm sure a lot of peeps will find the map great for one reason or another, but as a casual toss that's been struggling against zerg and zerg only because of the wall in/rush issues (all of us aren't pros), this is just irritating and makes me feel this hasn't been balanced at all (or at least not taking everyone into account). I don't mind losing at all, but at least I wanna feel I have a decent chance to win on every match/matchup, and this kind of map doesn't help me feel the game is giving me that opportunity. Maybe it's a first (and wrong) impression, but it is what it is right now, after my first game on it.
6. Last but not least : why in the name of god do 4 spawn points appear in the preview/loading screen when there's only 2 possible spawn points on the map ? I played a couple of days ago on one of the other new maps and it was already the case. I lost because I scouted the 4 sides of the map (my first play on it) before I found my opponent ( a toss brother), while he was already aware of this, and was cannon rushing me....do the guys who design the maps spend 2 months polishing the rocks and 15 minutes (including a coffee break) thinking about balance testing and fine tuning them ?
1. It is one of the easiest walls to make in the game. 1 pylon 1 forge on one side with no space then on the other side do 1 pylon 1 gate but put the pylon or gate 1 hex away from closing it, you can block it with a zealot later. Then you put a cannon in the middle and can shoot the rocks down on the side you sealed making it a double wall. If you scout trouble coming just seal both sides with your buildings instead of one. I don't understand why toss have so much trouble walling, terrans have no problem and their buildings are the same size :/ AND how can you complain about it being hard to wall. Have you ever played antiga, metalopolis, xelnaga caverns etc etc. Those maps the natural was just open space. By those standards these maps are easy.
2.Why do you expect to be allowed to fail something and still win. The Zerg fails to drone at the right time and loses. Should he have lost? Of course. So should you if you don't play properly. Just go into a custom game and figure out how to wall rather than in a match. If you mess up the wall kill it and start again. This has nothing to do with the current map pool, like I said it is actually fairly lenient.
3. It is difficult to take a third on this map. Maybe consider altering your approach for the map? Try a 2 base timing push where you expand as you move out or even try 2 base all in? It is no more difficult on this map to take a 3rd than star station. (It is probably easier)
4. That's because Protoss mechanics, not maps. Nothing you can do about it
5. If it is walling you really think is the problem then like I said just practice it. If still you can't win you are just doing something else wrong.
6. There are 4 spawn locations but it is cross position only.
Only map that is killing me is red city. It's like one big choke, or a million small chokes. In either case, bad for zerg play. Can't figure out how to play it. Anyone have any ideas?
On June 11 2013 15:18 aBstractx wrote: korhal skyland's top left and bottom right spawns make absolutely no sense. i cant see this working.. ever? bottom left top right i love, but when youre playing pvz and you need to wall, you have to wall both sides with an awkward wall, and then you have to wall off a choke the size of china if you plan on taking a third base. which i never plan on taking lol
Why? You can wall the map with 1 pylon and a gate on each side or 1 gate 1 cyber core. Or you can do it with 1 bunker 1 supply depot 1 side 1 barracks 1 depot on the other. Really there is no problem with this map you just complain before you even test it. You probably haven't even seen games on the map.
I believe the last TvZ on this map was 2 months ago and it was a CC first which is a huge gamble on this map since I don't think it's possible to have a wall-off on this map going for a gasless 1 rax expand against a 10 pool.
Then... don't? Why does every map have to be the exact same, people? Seriously...
On June 24 2013 05:17 Eurekastreet wrote: 1. First time I complain about a map but as a casual platinum toss, first impression is that Khoral Island is just bullshit. As a protoss, last couple of seasons' maps have been hard enough to wall against zergs (the race I struggle most against) because of the ramps getting bigger and bigger but with that double opening/ramp access to the natural, it just makes things harder. It's amazing that we got the prism acceleration buff, that sure did help me vs the fast pool followed by a 2 base roach ling I just experienced, when I wasn't even done walling the second entrance to my natural.
2. I don't veto maps ever because I (foolishly ?) believe they're all balanced and I'm supposed to learn to play all of them in a different way but jeez, it's hard enough to be a protoss lately, do we really need this kind of shit map to make it even harder ? By the the time I see how koreans do it and manage to try and reproduce it, we'll be in next season and map will probably disappear as it should. I don't know about other protoss platinum players (I guess everyone have their own nemesis) but the only race I'm struggling badly against is zerg, not because I think it's imba or anything but most (at my knob level) of the time, the biggest issue is the map setup.... doing a proper wall in vs zerg, one that's also economical is (more than) half the success in my pvz approach...fail to it and the match is over (whereas it doesn't matter that much vs terran and I can still fail but because my macro is bad or my engagements are lousy or my scouting is poor, but at least I get a chance to try and have a fun game). It was already tough with the ramps getting larger and larger in latest season maps (most of my zerg matches I try to build a wall the get busted one way or another, and if i defend it, I usually sacrify my economy for it, just delaying my unavoidable death), and now they start multiplying ramps/access points ? What's next ? 100% Open maps (with an even faster warp prism)?
3. I quickly browsed through the previous posts and it seems people are complaining about the third too. Just great, maybe in two months I'll get there, so I can realize it's messed up too.
4. I understand maps should be fine tuned for pros/masters/or even diamonds players...but this kind of map makes me feel no one gives a damn about us casual players,; what's the fun in those ? Lately, I load those and if I see the opponent is zerg, I know that if I don't cheese or do an all-in timing push, i can kiss the game goodbye. PvZ is already repetitive as shit (cheese or all-in or just forget about it, unless you're uber skilled ) and this kind of map makes it even worse.
5. I'm sure a lot of peeps will find the map great for one reason or another, but as a casual toss that's been struggling against zerg and zerg only because of the wall in/rush issues (all of us aren't pros), this is just irritating and makes me feel this hasn't been balanced at all (or at least not taking everyone into account). I don't mind losing at all, but at least I wanna feel I have a decent chance to win on every match/matchup, and this kind of map doesn't help me feel the game is giving me that opportunity. Maybe it's a first (and wrong) impression, but it is what it is right now, after my first game on it.
6. Last but not least : why in the name of god do 4 spawn points appear in the preview/loading screen when there's only 2 possible spawn points on the map ? I played a couple of days ago on one of the other new maps and it was already the case. I lost because I scouted the 4 sides of the map (my first play on it) before I found my opponent ( a toss brother), while he was already aware of this, and was cannon rushing me....do the guys who design the maps spend 2 months polishing the rocks and 15 minutes (including a coffee break) thinking about balance testing and fine tuning them ?
1. It is one of the easiest walls to make in the game. 1 pylon 1 forge on one side with no space then on the other side do 1 pylon 1 gate but put the pylon or gate 1 hex away from closing it, you can block it with a zealot later. Then you put a cannon in the middle and can shoot the rocks down on the side you sealed making it a double wall. If you scout trouble coming just seal both sides with your buildings instead of one. I don't understand why toss have so much trouble walling, terrans have no problem and their buildings are the same size :/ AND how can you complain about it being hard to wall. Have you ever played antiga, metalopolis, xelnaga caverns etc etc. Those maps the natural was just open space. By those standards these maps are easy.
2.Why do you expect to be allowed to fail something and still win. The Zerg fails to drone at the right time and loses. Should he have lost? Of course. So should you if you don't play properly. Just go into a custom game and figure out how to wall rather than in a match. If you mess up the wall kill it and start again. This has nothing to do with the current map pool, like I said it is actually fairly lenient.
3. It is difficult to take a third on this map. Maybe consider altering your approach for the map? Try a 2 base timing push where you expand as you move out or even try 2 base all in? It is no more difficult on this map to take a 3rd than star station. (It is probably easier)
4. That's because Protoss mechanics, not maps. Nothing you can do about it
5. If it is walling you really think is the problem then like I said just practice it. If still you can't win you are just doing something else wrong.
6. There are 4 spawn locations but it is cross position only.
Didn't know about 6., thanks for that. As for the rest : 1. Maybe I find it hard to wall because I'm not so good at the game but since I'm platinum I guess I'm not the only one in that position. I only played the map once so maybe I'll agree with you after more plays on it but that was my first impression. And looking at the map preview again, I guess I'll see my natural probe line getting killed by mutas hovering above/being defended by a zerg ground army (and therefore making it super hard for me to defend anything at all) more times than I can count, without being to do anything useful about it. I understand going forge is a nice way to wall in but it means you - have to - forge and that's what annoys me. I can't count the amount of games where 99 percent of my game time vs zerg was spent fast expanding, focusing on building on decent wall, not letting my macro slip up too much and by the time i was done with it, all i had left to do was to wait 30 to 60 secs and see which sauce zerg was gonna use to eat me alive. Not because it's imba but because not everyone has good scouting/good analysis of what they see in the zerg base. This 2 base push or die thing in pvz is just repetitive and boring and demanding and having a map with more ramps just make it seem harder to play than it was before. Or at least that was my impression. PvT or PvP is - at least to me - funnier to play because the choice of strats is much more open, much more reactive, and doing a tiny mistake is not always a big deal. PvZ is unforgiving. I don't mind it being unforgiving but what I don't like is doing the same strat/builds game after game after game (and in my case losing them again and again and again) I understand it's part of the toss race mechanics (and I hope Blizz fixes that someday to make PvZ much more reactive, action packed in the early game - I'd almost come to regret the good old days when 4 gates was still a viable strategy) but having these kind of maps doesn't help me enjoying the matchup
2 I'm not expecting to win if I mess my wall but I'd like the game to be more reactive/fun to play. Most of the pvzs I play are 10 minutes of droning/building a wall and 1 minute of losing vs a fast attack / an attack I'm not prepared for (unless once again I go for a fast immo push (and then I'd have to get ready for the inevitable toss is op+ragequit combo - gotta love ladder) but other than that, nothing seems to work because of my lack of macro/micro/scouting). I don't expect to win but I'd like the game to be fun to play vs zerg. Once again PvT is in mind much more reactive, lot more strategies are available for toss , comebacks are possible, defend vs drops and you feel you're going in the right direction, tiny things and tiny things that make the game entertaining, keep you busy and don't transform the game in some kind of insta flip coin at minute 10 etc etc whereas vs zerg, unless I go for the usual colossi/immortal push, nothing happens till z is ready with their own push, and then the game is as good as over.
Sorry for the rant, I'm just struggling against zerg and haven't had any fun vs it in the past several months and maybe it's because I'm tilting - but at platinum level, I don't think that matters really - and part of the tilting/no fun factor is for the reasons above.
On June 24 2013 05:17 Eurekastreet wrote: 1. First time I complain about a map but as a casual platinum toss, first impression is that Khoral Island is just bullshit. As a protoss, last couple of seasons' maps have been hard enough to wall against zergs (the race I struggle most against) because of the ramps getting bigger and bigger but with that double opening/ramp access to the natural, it just makes things harder. It's amazing that we got the prism acceleration buff, that sure did help me vs the fast pool followed by a 2 base roach ling I just experienced, when I wasn't even done walling the second entrance to my natural.
2. I don't veto maps ever because I (foolishly ?) believe they're all balanced and I'm supposed to learn to play all of them in a different way but jeez, it's hard enough to be a protoss lately, do we really need this kind of shit map to make it even harder ? By the the time I see how koreans do it and manage to try and reproduce it, we'll be in next season and map will probably disappear as it should. I don't know about other protoss platinum players (I guess everyone have their own nemesis) but the only race I'm struggling badly against is zerg, not because I think it's imba or anything but most (at my knob level) of the time, the biggest issue is the map setup.... doing a proper wall in vs zerg, one that's also economical is (more than) half the success in my pvz approach...fail to it and the match is over (whereas it doesn't matter that much vs terran and I can still fail but because my macro is bad or my engagements are lousy or my scouting is poor, but at least I get a chance to try and have a fun game). It was already tough with the ramps getting larger and larger in latest season maps (most of my zerg matches I try to build a wall the get busted one way or another, and if i defend it, I usually sacrify my economy for it, just delaying my unavoidable death), and now they start multiplying ramps/access points ? What's next ? 100% Open maps (with an even faster warp prism)?
3. I quickly browsed through the previous posts and it seems people are complaining about the third too. Just great, maybe in two months I'll get there, so I can realize it's messed up too.
4. I understand maps should be fine tuned for pros/masters/or even diamonds players...but this kind of map makes me feel no one gives a damn about us casual players,; what's the fun in those ? Lately, I load those and if I see the opponent is zerg, I know that if I don't cheese or do an all-in timing push, i can kiss the game goodbye. PvZ is already repetitive as shit (cheese or all-in or just forget about it, unless you're uber skilled ) and this kind of map makes it even worse.
5. I'm sure a lot of peeps will find the map great for one reason or another, but as a casual toss that's been struggling against zerg and zerg only because of the wall in/rush issues (all of us aren't pros), this is just irritating and makes me feel this hasn't been balanced at all (or at least not taking everyone into account). I don't mind losing at all, but at least I wanna feel I have a decent chance to win on every match/matchup, and this kind of map doesn't help me feel the game is giving me that opportunity. Maybe it's a first (and wrong) impression, but it is what it is right now, after my first game on it.
6. Last but not least : why in the name of god do 4 spawn points appear in the preview/loading screen when there's only 2 possible spawn points on the map ? I played a couple of days ago on one of the other new maps and it was already the case. I lost because I scouted the 4 sides of the map (my first play on it) before I found my opponent ( a toss brother), while he was already aware of this, and was cannon rushing me....do the guys who design the maps spend 2 months polishing the rocks and 15 minutes (including a coffee break) thinking about balance testing and fine tuning them ?
1. It is one of the easiest walls to make in the game. 1 pylon 1 forge on one side with no space then on the other side do 1 pylon 1 gate but put the pylon or gate 1 hex away from closing it, you can block it with a zealot later. Then you put a cannon in the middle and can shoot the rocks down on the side you sealed making it a double wall. If you scout trouble coming just seal both sides with your buildings instead of one. I don't understand why toss have so much trouble walling, terrans have no problem and their buildings are the same size :/ AND how can you complain about it being hard to wall. Have you ever played antiga, metalopolis, xelnaga caverns etc etc. Those maps the natural was just open space. By those standards these maps are easy.
2.Why do you expect to be allowed to fail something and still win. The Zerg fails to drone at the right time and loses. Should he have lost? Of course. So should you if you don't play properly. Just go into a custom game and figure out how to wall rather than in a match. If you mess up the wall kill it and start again. This has nothing to do with the current map pool, like I said it is actually fairly lenient.
3. It is difficult to take a third on this map. Maybe consider altering your approach for the map? Try a 2 base timing push where you expand as you move out or even try 2 base all in? It is no more difficult on this map to take a 3rd than star station. (It is probably easier)
4. That's because Protoss mechanics, not maps. Nothing you can do about it
5. If it is walling you really think is the problem then like I said just practice it. If still you can't win you are just doing something else wrong.
6. There are 4 spawn locations but it is cross position only.
Didn't know about 6., thanks for that. As for the rest : 1. Maybe I find it hard to wall because I'm not so good at the game but since I'm platinum I guess I'm not the only one in that position. I only played the map once so maybe I'll agree with you after more plays on it but that was my first impression. And looking at the map preview again, I guess I'll see my natural probe line getting killed by mutas hovering above/being defended by a zerg ground army (and therefore making it super hard for me to defend anything at all) more times than I can count, without being to do anything useful about it. I understand going forge is a nice way to wall in but it means you - have to - forge and that's what annoys me. I can't count the amount of games where 99 percent of my game time vs zerg was spent fast expanding, focusing on building on decent wall, not letting my macro slip up too much and by the time i was done with it, all i had left to do was to wait 30 to 60 secs and see which sauce zerg was gonna use to eat me alive. Not because it's imba but because not everyone has good scouting/good analysis of what they see in the zerg base. This 2 base push or die thing in pvz is just repetitive and boring and demanding and having a map with more ramps just make it seem harder to play than it was before. Or at least that was my impression. PvT or PvP is - at least to me - funnier to play because the choice of strats is much more open, much more reactive, and doing a tiny mistake is not always a big deal. PvZ is unforgiving. I don't mind it being unforgiving but what I don't like is doing the same strat/builds game after game after game (and in my case losing them again and again and again) I understand it's part of the toss race mechanics (and I hope Blizz fixes that someday to make PvZ much more reactive, action packed in the early game - I'd almost come to regret the good old days when 4 gates was still a viable strategy) but having these kind of maps doesn't help me enjoying the matchup
2 I'm not expecting to win if I mess my wall but I'd like the game to be more reactive/fun to play. Most of the pvzs I play are 10 minutes of droning/building a wall and 1 minute of losing vs a fast attack / an attack I'm not prepared for (unless once again I go for a fast immo push (and then I'd have to get ready for the inevitable toss is op+ragequit combo - gotta love ladder) but other than that, nothing seems to work because of my lack of macro/micro/scouting). I don't expect to win but I'd like the game to be fun to play vs zerg. Once again PvT is in mind much more reactive, lot more strategies are available for toss , comebacks are possible, defend vs drops and you feel you're going in the right direction, tiny things and tiny things that make the game entertaining, keep you busy and don't transform the game in some kind of insta flip coin at minute 10 etc etc whereas vs zerg, unless I go for the usual colossi/immortal push, nothing happens till z is ready with their own push, and then the game is as good as over.
Sorry for the rant, I'm just struggling against zerg and haven't had any fun vs it in the past several months and maybe it's because I'm tilting - but at platinum level, I don't think that matters really - and part of the tilting/no fun factor is for the reasons above.
Not really sure what your PvZ problem has to do with the map. I personally actually strugle vs Protoss quite a bit on this map, I do so mainly because the map is so narrow that forcefields are so strong. I do however see that an early pool can be a problem for a "greedy" protoss. Me personally i like to resort to big drops on this map if it's bottom right vs top left. It's very effective and if done properly can even be used against Stargate play. If it's bottom left vs top right however... I have yet to win a Game vs Protoss, the few I played i got demolished by phoenix into Colossus Sentry.
On June 24 2013 05:17 Eurekastreet wrote: 1. First time I complain about a map but as a casual platinum toss, first impression is that Khoral Island is just bullshit. As a protoss, last couple of seasons' maps have been hard enough to wall against zergs (the race I struggle most against) because of the ramps getting bigger and bigger but with that double opening/ramp access to the natural, it just makes things harder. It's amazing that we got the prism acceleration buff, that sure did help me vs the fast pool followed by a 2 base roach ling I just experienced, when I wasn't even done walling the second entrance to my natural.
2. I don't veto maps ever because I (foolishly ?) believe they're all balanced and I'm supposed to learn to play all of them in a different way but jeez, it's hard enough to be a protoss lately, do we really need this kind of shit map to make it even harder ? By the the time I see how koreans do it and manage to try and reproduce it, we'll be in next season and map will probably disappear as it should. I don't know about other protoss platinum players (I guess everyone have their own nemesis) but the only race I'm struggling badly against is zerg, not because I think it's imba or anything but most (at my knob level) of the time, the biggest issue is the map setup.... doing a proper wall in vs zerg, one that's also economical is (more than) half the success in my pvz approach...fail to it and the match is over (whereas it doesn't matter that much vs terran and I can still fail but because my macro is bad or my engagements are lousy or my scouting is poor, but at least I get a chance to try and have a fun game). It was already tough with the ramps getting larger and larger in latest season maps (most of my zerg matches I try to build a wall the get busted one way or another, and if i defend it, I usually sacrify my economy for it, just delaying my unavoidable death), and now they start multiplying ramps/access points ? What's next ? 100% Open maps (with an even faster warp prism)?
3. I quickly browsed through the previous posts and it seems people are complaining about the third too. Just great, maybe in two months I'll get there, so I can realize it's messed up too.
4. I understand maps should be fine tuned for pros/masters/or even diamonds players...but this kind of map makes me feel no one gives a damn about us casual players,; what's the fun in those ? Lately, I load those and if I see the opponent is zerg, I know that if I don't cheese or do an all-in timing push, i can kiss the game goodbye. PvZ is already repetitive as shit (cheese or all-in or just forget about it, unless you're uber skilled ) and this kind of map makes it even worse.
5. I'm sure a lot of peeps will find the map great for one reason or another, but as a casual toss that's been struggling against zerg and zerg only because of the wall in/rush issues (all of us aren't pros), this is just irritating and makes me feel this hasn't been balanced at all (or at least not taking everyone into account). I don't mind losing at all, but at least I wanna feel I have a decent chance to win on every match/matchup, and this kind of map doesn't help me feel the game is giving me that opportunity. Maybe it's a first (and wrong) impression, but it is what it is right now, after my first game on it.
6. Last but not least : why in the name of god do 4 spawn points appear in the preview/loading screen when there's only 2 possible spawn points on the map ? I played a couple of days ago on one of the other new maps and it was already the case. I lost because I scouted the 4 sides of the map (my first play on it) before I found my opponent ( a toss brother), while he was already aware of this, and was cannon rushing me....do the guys who design the maps spend 2 months polishing the rocks and 15 minutes (including a coffee break) thinking about balance testing and fine tuning them ?
1. It is one of the easiest walls to make in the game. 1 pylon 1 forge on one side with no space then on the other side do 1 pylon 1 gate but put the pylon or gate 1 hex away from closing it, you can block it with a zealot later. Then you put a cannon in the middle and can shoot the rocks down on the side you sealed making it a double wall. If you scout trouble coming just seal both sides with your buildings instead of one. I don't understand why toss have so much trouble walling, terrans have no problem and their buildings are the same size :/ AND how can you complain about it being hard to wall. Have you ever played antiga, metalopolis, xelnaga caverns etc etc. Those maps the natural was just open space. By those standards these maps are easy.
2.Why do you expect to be allowed to fail something and still win. The Zerg fails to drone at the right time and loses. Should he have lost? Of course. So should you if you don't play properly. Just go into a custom game and figure out how to wall rather than in a match. If you mess up the wall kill it and start again. This has nothing to do with the current map pool, like I said it is actually fairly lenient.
3. It is difficult to take a third on this map. Maybe consider altering your approach for the map? Try a 2 base timing push where you expand as you move out or even try 2 base all in? It is no more difficult on this map to take a 3rd than star station. (It is probably easier)
4. That's because Protoss mechanics, not maps. Nothing you can do about it
5. If it is walling you really think is the problem then like I said just practice it. If still you can't win you are just doing something else wrong.
6. There are 4 spawn locations but it is cross position only.
Didn't know about 6., thanks for that. As for the rest : 1. Maybe I find it hard to wall because I'm not so good at the game but since I'm platinum I guess I'm not the only one in that position. I only played the map once so maybe I'll agree with you after more plays on it but that was my first impression. And looking at the map preview again, I guess I'll see my natural probe line getting killed by mutas hovering above/being defended by a zerg ground army (and therefore making it super hard for me to defend anything at all) more times than I can count, without being to do anything useful about it. I understand going forge is a nice way to wall in but it means you - have to - forge and that's what annoys me. I can't count the amount of games where 99 percent of my game time vs zerg was spent fast expanding, focusing on building on decent wall, not letting my macro slip up too much and by the time i was done with it, all i had left to do was to wait 30 to 60 secs and see which sauce zerg was gonna use to eat me alive. Not because it's imba but because not everyone has good scouting/good analysis of what they see in the zerg base. This 2 base push or die thing in pvz is just repetitive and boring and demanding and having a map with more ramps just make it seem harder to play than it was before. Or at least that was my impression. PvT or PvP is - at least to me - funnier to play because the choice of strats is much more open, much more reactive, and doing a tiny mistake is not always a big deal. PvZ is unforgiving. I don't mind it being unforgiving but what I don't like is doing the same strat/builds game after game after game (and in my case losing them again and again and again) I understand it's part of the toss race mechanics (and I hope Blizz fixes that someday to make PvZ much more reactive, action packed in the early game - I'd almost come to regret the good old days when 4 gates was still a viable strategy) but having these kind of maps doesn't help me enjoying the matchup
2 I'm not expecting to win if I mess my wall but I'd like the game to be more reactive/fun to play. Most of the pvzs I play are 10 minutes of droning/building a wall and 1 minute of losing vs a fast attack / an attack I'm not prepared for (unless once again I go for a fast immo push (and then I'd have to get ready for the inevitable toss is op+ragequit combo - gotta love ladder) but other than that, nothing seems to work because of my lack of macro/micro/scouting). I don't expect to win but I'd like the game to be fun to play vs zerg. Once again PvT is in mind much more reactive, lot more strategies are available for toss , comebacks are possible, defend vs drops and you feel you're going in the right direction, tiny things and tiny things that make the game entertaining, keep you busy and don't transform the game in some kind of insta flip coin at minute 10 etc etc whereas vs zerg, unless I go for the usual colossi/immortal push, nothing happens till z is ready with their own push, and then the game is as good as over.
Sorry for the rant, I'm just struggling against zerg and haven't had any fun vs it in the past several months and maybe it's because I'm tilting - but at platinum level, I don't think that matters really - and part of the tilting/no fun factor is for the reasons above.
PvZ has been this for a long time. Not map dependent. Remember that the Zerg has to do the same thing as you. ZvP is literally just the right mixture of building drones at the right time and trying not to die to early pushes. It's kind of a shitty matchup tbh. :p
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