On June 05 2013 21:44 Big J wrote: So, based upon which evidence do we have that powerrank? Some guys drinking a beer and making a list?
It looks pretty arbitrary at this point apart from #1 and #2.
When will people understand this IS arbitrary ?
You completely have the right to disagree ! But better bring solid arguments then.
Well, the only arguments for number 3 and number 4 on this list are: "they do amazingly in proleague". And then you go to the arguments for number 1 and then add "unless they have to face someone that is actually a highcaliber player himself".
Well, Keen is rocking GSTL as well and has been in the last Code S and will be in the next one as well. That doesn't mean I think Keen should be on the list and number 3 and 4 not, but at this point, putting them over players who have achieved much more in Starcraft 2 and the last GSL but don't participate in proleague because they are on eSF like Symbol or Life (and do well in their respective teamleague - GSTL) and have been toplevel players for much, much longer is just blind fanboyism. And disregards anybody who doesn't play proleague.
And doing amazingly well in Proleague is meaningless ? I doubt many people would agree...
Well, Keen is rocking GSTL, or sort of : I mean, all killing NSH isn't quite the same feat as all-killing CJ Entus or even EG-TL (imo) in Proleague, but it gives a nice boost to wincount. Otherwise, he went out of GSL 2012 Season 5 in the Ro32, same for this season... while Soulkey and Inno are already ahead (Soulkey already made 2 Ro8 and a title, INnoVatioN a finals, a Ro8 and a Ro4...), with strong runs, sOs already made a Ro4, RorO won the last GSL and got another Ro8 appearance, Symbol another Ro4 which adds up to a long list of strong results recently, PartinG a few Ro8, etc. Only HerO imo is debatable...
Power rank isn't about a whole career achievement (even on that, KeeN hasn't achieved as much..., only a Ro8, though he's been there consistently and for a long time), but recent results/showing (what was won, and how).
As an example, Life is a very high caliber player, but can you show what did he accomplished over the last month - 2 months period ?
I do agree that some players don't get the same exposure because they do not compete in Proleague, but Proleague has far more matches between teams of players that prepare quite exclusively for it, and you can't deny that it brings a lot to the table when comparing players (while GSTL for example has much less matches, and a team like NSH kind of drags down the level, although, do not misinterpret, there are excellent teams in the GSTL, but less focused on the team league format than proleague teams...).
So no, it's not fanboyism. You must remember what the PR is based on (hint : it doesn't really care about GSL Open Seasons, but rather about really recent events) and not overrate unecessarily GSTL over proleague, that's ridiculous.
You don't consider Brazil a top4 national team, when they go out in the Ro32 or Ro16 in a football world championsship, no matter how many Copa America and Friendlies and Confederations Cups they won recently. And same goes for Flash and Rain. They are not top4 recently, if they get stomped in the Ro32 (where we are back to the Keen comparison) and Ro16. Not even if you are in a group of death, because top4 means that you are expected to make it out of such a group, if only one guy is ranked higher in same group.
Proleague is a nice measure for consistency. But winning a Ro8 match in the GSL is surely a harder thing to do than collecting wins against a bunch of Code A wannabes with the occasional Code S player mixed in.
What has Life done in the last two months? Well, does powerrank focus on the last two months? Because then there is no reason whatsoever why the top5 of the powerrank should contain a single player who wasn't good enough for the Ro8 in the number one tournament by far in the last months and the top4 should probably be Innovation, Soulkey, Symbol and sOs before even considering anyone else to make it in the top10. If however the powerrank does not focus on just the most recent toplevel (as in, there is nothing above this league) accomplishments, then I don't see why flash and rain should be top4, seeing how they are lacking good finishes, compared to many other players.
That's why I say it's fanboyism. The only argument for flash and rain are proleague results. I believe that they should be on the list, due to how good they obviously are. But there are just players who deliver more at this point and should be above them. In some cases really obvious choices (e.g.: sOs. Same stats as Rain/flash in proleague, much better in the GSL; beating the guy who beat flash) I mean, what is going to happen if they deliver some real results? If flash makes it to the Ro8 in the OSL? Youd' have to rank him above the OSL winner then, as you already ranked him 3rd without having a good finish...
On June 05 2013 11:31 shin777 wrote: Hero #10 instead of MVP? Non-sense. WCS NA this season had weakest members of all and all koreans who participated in WCS NA were the ones who had no chance in korea. Well. Hero wonders why there were so little people on WCS NA final and why he didn't get loud cheers or why he didn't feel like winning a championship. It's because WCS NA was not impressive or fun at all and top 8 members were all boring to watch compared to WCS KR or WCS EU. Just watch. WCS NA will get knocked around so hard in this week's season final. The only reason Hero is even on this list is because This is teamliquid site and Hero is their team. I am sorry but no. Hero shouldn't even be on top 20.
Look at Proleague and eat your words. HerO belongs on this list, and he will prove it at the world finals.
On June 06 2013 03:34 UpATree wrote: I really want to see an innovation soulkey rematch, this time innovation makes some tanks.
instead of 2rax cheesing and 2base hellbat drops all the time?
It's so lol, the story of this finals was two guys cheesing each other or playing very damage oriented builds (two 2rax, 3hellbat drop builds, one roach/hydra build, one 3base speedroach/speedbaneling 1-1 timing, two 2base baneling busts). It's not like soulkey cheesed against a guy who played straight up macro builds. Innovation did more than his fair share of not playing macrogames.
On June 05 2013 21:44 Big J wrote: So, based upon which evidence do we have that powerrank? Some guys drinking a beer and making a list?
It looks pretty arbitrary at this point apart from #1 and #2.
When will people understand this IS arbitrary ?
You completely have the right to disagree ! But better bring solid arguments then.
Well, the only arguments for number 3 and number 4 on this list are: "they do amazingly in proleague". And then you go to the arguments for number 1 and then add "unless they have to face someone that is actually a highcaliber player himself".
Well, Keen is rocking GSTL as well and has been in the last Code S and will be in the next one as well. That doesn't mean I think Keen should be on the list and number 3 and 4 not, but at this point, putting them over players who have achieved much more in Starcraft 2 and the last GSL but don't participate in proleague because they are on eSF like Symbol or Life (and do well in their respective teamleague - GSTL) and have been toplevel players for much, much longer is just blind fanboyism. And disregards anybody who doesn't play proleague.
And doing amazingly well in Proleague is meaningless ? I doubt many people would agree...
Well, Keen is rocking GSTL, or sort of : I mean, all killing NSH isn't quite the same feat as all-killing CJ Entus or even EG-TL (imo) in Proleague, but it gives a nice boost to wincount. Otherwise, he went out of GSL 2012 Season 5 in the Ro32, same for this season... while Soulkey and Inno are already ahead (Soulkey already made 2 Ro8 and a title, INnoVatioN a finals, a Ro8 and a Ro4...), with strong runs, sOs already made a Ro4, RorO won the last GSL and got another Ro8 appearance, Symbol another Ro4 which adds up to a long list of strong results recently, PartinG a few Ro8, etc. Only HerO imo is debatable...
Power rank isn't about a whole career achievement (even on that, KeeN hasn't achieved as much..., only a Ro8, though he's been there consistently and for a long time), but recent results/showing (what was won, and how).
As an example, Life is a very high caliber player, but can you show what did he accomplished over the last month - 2 months period ?
I do agree that some players don't get the same exposure because they do not compete in Proleague, but Proleague has far more matches between teams of players that prepare quite exclusively for it, and you can't deny that it brings a lot to the table when comparing players (while GSTL for example has much less matches, and a team like NSH kind of drags down the level, although, do not misinterpret, there are excellent teams in the GSTL, but less focused on the team league format than proleague teams...).
So no, it's not fanboyism. You must remember what the PR is based on (hint : it doesn't really care about GSL Open Seasons, but rather about really recent events) and not overrate unecessarily GSTL over proleague, that's ridiculous.
You don't consider Brazil a top4 national team, when they go out in the Ro32 or Ro16 in a football world championsship, no matter how many Copa America and Friendlies and Confederations Cups they won recently. And same goes for Flash and Rain. They are not top4 recently, if they get stomped in the Ro32 (where we are back to the Keen comparison) and Ro16. Not even if you are in a group of death, because top4 means that you are expected to make it out of such a group, if only one guy is ranked higher in same group.
Proleague is a nice measure for consistency. But winning a Ro8 match in the GSL is surely a harder thing to do than collecting wins against a bunch of Code A wannabes with the occasional Code S player mixed in.
What has Life done in the last two months? Well, does powerrank focus on the last two months? Because then there is no reason whatsoever why the top5 of the powerrank should contain a single player who wasn't good enough for the Ro8 in the number one tournament by far in the last months and the top4 should probably be Innovation, Soulkey, Symbol and sOs before even considering anyone else to make it in the top10. If however the powerrank does not focus on just the most recent toplevel (as in, there is nothing above this league) accomplishments, then I don't see why flash and rain should be top4, seeing how they are lacking good finishes, compared to many other players.
That's why I say it's fanboyism. The only argument for flash and rain are proleague results. I believe that they should be on the list, due to how good they obviously are. But there are just players who deliver more at this point and should be above them. In some cases really obvious choices (e.g.: sOs. Same stats as Rain/flash in proleague, much better in the GSL; beating the guy who beat flash) I mean, what is going to happen if they deliver some real results? If flash makes it to the Ro8 in the OSL? Youd' have to rank him above the OSL winner then, as you already ranked him 3rd without having a good finish...
The biggest difference between Rain/Flash and everyone else below them is not their Proleague record, but that everyone else had quite a few fuck up games, most of which are mentioned in their write-ups. Meanwhile, Flash/Rain almost always showed immaculate play, which is also reflected in their write-ups.
On June 05 2013 21:44 Big J wrote: So, based upon which evidence do we have that powerrank? Some guys drinking a beer and making a list?
It looks pretty arbitrary at this point apart from #1 and #2.
When will people understand this IS arbitrary ?
You completely have the right to disagree ! But better bring solid arguments then.
Well, the only arguments for number 3 and number 4 on this list are: "they do amazingly in proleague". And then you go to the arguments for number 1 and then add "unless they have to face someone that is actually a highcaliber player himself".
Well, Keen is rocking GSTL as well and has been in the last Code S and will be in the next one as well. That doesn't mean I think Keen should be on the list and number 3 and 4 not, but at this point, putting them over players who have achieved much more in Starcraft 2 and the last GSL but don't participate in proleague because they are on eSF like Symbol or Life (and do well in their respective teamleague - GSTL) and have been toplevel players for much, much longer is just blind fanboyism. And disregards anybody who doesn't play proleague.
And doing amazingly well in Proleague is meaningless ? I doubt many people would agree...
Well, Keen is rocking GSTL, or sort of : I mean, all killing NSH isn't quite the same feat as all-killing CJ Entus or even EG-TL (imo) in Proleague, but it gives a nice boost to wincount. Otherwise, he went out of GSL 2012 Season 5 in the Ro32, same for this season... while Soulkey and Inno are already ahead (Soulkey already made 2 Ro8 and a title, INnoVatioN a finals, a Ro8 and a Ro4...), with strong runs, sOs already made a Ro4, RorO won the last GSL and got another Ro8 appearance, Symbol another Ro4 which adds up to a long list of strong results recently, PartinG a few Ro8, etc. Only HerO imo is debatable...
Power rank isn't about a whole career achievement (even on that, KeeN hasn't achieved as much..., only a Ro8, though he's been there consistently and for a long time), but recent results/showing (what was won, and how).
As an example, Life is a very high caliber player, but can you show what did he accomplished over the last month - 2 months period ?
I do agree that some players don't get the same exposure because they do not compete in Proleague, but Proleague has far more matches between teams of players that prepare quite exclusively for it, and you can't deny that it brings a lot to the table when comparing players (while GSTL for example has much less matches, and a team like NSH kind of drags down the level, although, do not misinterpret, there are excellent teams in the GSTL, but less focused on the team league format than proleague teams...).
So no, it's not fanboyism. You must remember what the PR is based on (hint : it doesn't really care about GSL Open Seasons, but rather about really recent events) and not overrate unecessarily GSTL over proleague, that's ridiculous.
You don't consider Brazil a top4 national team, when they go out in the Ro32 or Ro16 in a football world championsship, no matter how many Copa America and Friendlies and Confederations Cups they won recently. And same goes for Flash and Rain. They are not top4 recently, if they get stomped in the Ro32 (where we are back to the Keen comparison) and Ro16. Not even if you are in a group of death, because top4 means that you are expected to make it out of such a group, if only one guy is ranked higher in same group.
Proleague is a nice measure for consistency. But winning a Ro8 match in the GSL is surely a harder thing to do than collecting wins against a bunch of Code A wannabes with the occasional Code S player mixed in.
What has Life done in the last two months? Well, does powerrank focus on the last two months? Because then there is no reason whatsoever why the top5 of the powerrank should contain a single player who wasn't good enough for the Ro8 in the number one tournament by far in the last months and the top4 should probably be Innovation, Soulkey, Symbol and sOs before even considering anyone else to make it in the top10. If however the powerrank does not focus on just the most recent toplevel (as in, there is nothing above this league) accomplishments, then I don't see why flash and rain should be top4, seeing how they are lacking good finishes, compared to many other players.
That's why I say it's fanboyism. The only argument for flash and rain are proleague results. I believe that they should be on the list, due to how good they obviously are. But there are just players who deliver more at this point and should be above them. In some cases really obvious choices (e.g.: sOs. Same stats as Rain/flash in proleague, much better in the GSL; beating the guy who beat flash) I mean, what is going to happen if they deliver some real results? If flash makes it to the Ro8 in the OSL? Youd' have to rank him above the OSL winner then, as you already ranked him 3rd without having a good finish...
Very well said. Flash top 3 and Rain ahead of Life is downright disgusting.
On June 05 2013 09:16 Arisen wrote: i disagree with soulkey vs innovation. People dick ride innovation way to hard. I think soulkey justified himself as a really great player under pressure and innovation proved that he needs to work on that part of his game. Innovation might have looked more dominant in the games he won, but I think soulkey proved to be the better all around player
This guy knows what's up, I dislike the whole discrediting Soulkey solely because he came through on close matches. It really seems this Innovation thing is like Stephano fanboys prior to him actually doing anything. Maybe he will be great one day, but to be on him this early is quite silly.
I remember when MVP won his title while being absolute shit, cheesed his way to the final and took the final game with some top class cheese, it wasn't pretty to watch, it wasn't top quality starcraft, but it sure was entertaining to watch. He was second best to everyone he faced from the Ro16 onwards, but he won, and most of the forum was "He would be a god if he had his wrists" Soulkey is much the same, he didn't steamroll his way to the final, he didn't do it classily but to be able to win the title when looking so bad says quite a bit about when he actually steps up his game.
On June 05 2013 20:31 Noobity wrote: I don't understand this list. How is 15-2 in best of one games more important than a 5th place finish or WCS EU championship regardless of opponents considering they're all pretty difficult?
The Flash bias is so old.
Stephano got his ass kicked in Proleague. He started slumping after that beating he took. Also WCS America was dominated by EG-TL which is the last team in Proleague. And last but not least 3 out of 4 GSL semifinalists were Kespa players..So yeah, you see Proleague is a very important league. In this league the player with the most wins by far is...Flash. WCS EU is not that important. You got a Code B GSL player vs a player who got only 2 wins in Proleague and then left with his tail between his legs from Korea...
Well mvp = code B is bs and you know it. Stephano qualified for code S the same season so we know a mvp is at least code S. Also Stephano did not do that bad in pl.
You can tell when someone is trolling when they call MVP, the most decorated Starcraft 2 player, "Code B".
Mvp at his best makes Innovation look like a scrub. No one ever wants to play Mvp. Not even Flash. On his best day he is completely unbeatable.
The PR and its rankings have allways been debated over endlessly
You can argue all you want over x result doesn't warrant y placement, but in the end it's the amount of "power" (read: abstract term in terms of power, which is based upon reputation, recent results, consistency and the writers impression).
That's how it was valued, I could make a claim that Flash would've won the GSL had he made it to the finals vs Soulkey instead of Innovation given how strong Flash tradtionally has been on the mainstage in the finals, but you could rightfully call bullshit on that, given we don't know how it would've turned out (You can also bet your damn ass the GSL finalists played better in practice than on stage, I refuse to believe otherwise).
I still think Soulkey should be #1. The only thing more important than a GSL final should be a Proleague playoff match or finals, unless you're an absolute tear.
On June 05 2013 18:35 Otolia wrote: Bringing this feature back is a terrible terrible mistake. It's the equivalent of "Best Games of 2013" for video games reviewers. Pointless rankings only written to make people take about it and gain viewers. I expected more out of the writing team.
Based on this feedback, we have decided to discontinue power ranks in future months.
On June 05 2013 21:44 Big J wrote: So, based upon which evidence do we have that powerrank? Some guys drinking a beer and making a list?
It looks pretty arbitrary at this point apart from #1 and #2.
When will people understand this IS arbitrary ?
You completely have the right to disagree ! But better bring solid arguments then.
Well, the only arguments for number 3 and number 4 on this list are: "they do amazingly in proleague". And then you go to the arguments for number 1 and then add "unless they have to face someone that is actually a highcaliber player himself".
Well, Keen is rocking GSTL as well and has been in the last Code S and will be in the next one as well. That doesn't mean I think Keen should be on the list and number 3 and 4 not, but at this point, putting them over players who have achieved much more in Starcraft 2 and the last GSL but don't participate in proleague because they are on eSF like Symbol or Life (and do well in their respective teamleague - GSTL) and have been toplevel players for much, much longer is just blind fanboyism. And disregards anybody who doesn't play proleague.
And doing amazingly well in Proleague is meaningless ? I doubt many people would agree...
Well, Keen is rocking GSTL, or sort of : I mean, all killing NSH isn't quite the same feat as all-killing CJ Entus or even EG-TL (imo) in Proleague, but it gives a nice boost to wincount. Otherwise, he went out of GSL 2012 Season 5 in the Ro32, same for this season... while Soulkey and Inno are already ahead (Soulkey already made 2 Ro8 and a title, INnoVatioN a finals, a Ro8 and a Ro4...), with strong runs, sOs already made a Ro4, RorO won the last GSL and got another Ro8 appearance, Symbol another Ro4 which adds up to a long list of strong results recently, PartinG a few Ro8, etc. Only HerO imo is debatable...
Power rank isn't about a whole career achievement (even on that, KeeN hasn't achieved as much..., only a Ro8, though he's been there consistently and for a long time), but recent results/showing (what was won, and how).
As an example, Life is a very high caliber player, but can you show what did he accomplished over the last month - 2 months period ?
I do agree that some players don't get the same exposure because they do not compete in Proleague, but Proleague has far more matches between teams of players that prepare quite exclusively for it, and you can't deny that it brings a lot to the table when comparing players (while GSTL for example has much less matches, and a team like NSH kind of drags down the level, although, do not misinterpret, there are excellent teams in the GSTL, but less focused on the team league format than proleague teams...).
So no, it's not fanboyism. You must remember what the PR is based on (hint : it doesn't really care about GSL Open Seasons, but rather about really recent events) and not overrate unecessarily GSTL over proleague, that's ridiculous.
You don't consider Brazil a top4 national team, when they go out in the Ro32 or Ro16 in a football world championsship, no matter how many Copa America and Friendlies and Confederations Cups they won recently. And same goes for Flash and Rain. They are not top4 recently, if they get stomped in the Ro32 (where we are back to the Keen comparison) and Ro16. Not even if you are in a group of death, because top4 means that you are expected to make it out of such a group, if only one guy is ranked higher in same group.
Proleague is a nice measure for consistency. But winning a Ro8 match in the GSL is surely a harder thing to do than collecting wins against a bunch of Code A wannabes with the occasional Code S player mixed in.
What has Life done in the last two months? Well, does powerrank focus on the last two months? Because then there is no reason whatsoever why the top5 of the powerrank should contain a single player who wasn't good enough for the Ro8 in the number one tournament by far in the last months and the top4 should probably be Innovation, Soulkey, Symbol and sOs before even considering anyone else to make it in the top10. If however the powerrank does not focus on just the most recent toplevel (as in, there is nothing above this league) accomplishments, then I don't see why flash and rain should be top4, seeing how they are lacking good finishes, compared to many other players.
That's why I say it's fanboyism. The only argument for flash and rain are proleague results. I believe that they should be on the list, due to how good they obviously are. But there are just players who deliver more at this point and should be above them. In some cases really obvious choices (e.g.: sOs. Same stats as Rain/flash in proleague, much better in the GSL; beating the guy who beat flash) I mean, what is going to happen if they deliver some real results? If flash makes it to the Ro8 in the OSL? Youd' have to rank him above the OSL winner then, as you already ranked him 3rd without having a good finish...
Very well said. Flash top 3 and Rain ahead of Life is downright disgusting.
or you know, the power rank is based off recent results and Life hasn't achieved any noteworthy recent results.
Fact of the matter is, Proleague matters and is a more accurate measure because it has a higher sample of number of games played than other tournaments and leagues. Some would even argue that the calibre of players there are better with the likes of Innovation et al competing there too.
Those Proleague results are indeed the difference between Flash and Life. That isn't fanboyism, it's called 'having results to show.' If Life played more games in the GSTL that may have been reflected in, but the fact of the matter is, other than getting kicked out of the group of death and 2-0ing MKP in Code A, nothing warrants Life being placed anywhere near the top 5 in this month's power-rank.
That's not to say Life isn't a top 5 player - it's likely Life will go on to win more championships and he, along with Soulkey, are the best the zerg race have to offer at the moment. But Power Rank is mostly about a particular month/recent results, and on that basis, Rain and Flash have the results to show for their positions.
I like the idea of a power rank but as time passes, this list is basically going to be a proleague rank, simply because of the sheer number of games proleague players have to play.
Just look at Rain, if you take away all his proleague games, there's just too little to go on to determine if he deserves a spot on the list. I'm not saying Rain doesn't deserve to be on the list, he obviously does, but this ranking system will favor proleague players over everyone else.
On June 06 2013 04:47 gozima wrote: I like the idea of a power rank but as time passes, this list is basically going to be a proleague rank, simply because of the sheer number of games proleague players have to play.
Just look at Rain, if you take away all his proleague games, there's just too little to go on to determine if he deserves a spot on the list. I'm not saying Rain doesn't deserve to be on the list, he obviously does, but this ranking system will favor proleague players over everyone else.
People don't seem to understand that ProLeague has been the flagship tournament of Korean progaming for a decade. It is the tournament the Koreans care about the most, over MSL and OSL in the past, and I'm guessing that is still the case now.
EPT
