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Base Timings and Saturation Speed from 100k Games - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Arolis
Profile Joined October 2010
United States496 Posts
May 30 2013 23:24 GMT
#21
On May 31 2013 05:30 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2013 05:26 TheFish7 wrote:
Interesting stats. This is only for PvZ?

You really should click on links...


I think the most interesting thing here is how close the Bronze league timings are to Grandmaster. It's obviously not close, but it definitely shows how far the average skill level has increased since the early WoL days.

These are only the statistics for ~100,000 games though. You'll notice that there are thousands less games in Bronze compared even to Silver league. So it should be taken into consideration that there are a lot less macro focused players in bronze, which isn't surprising. I'm not sure how much inference can be made about the average Bronze leaguer's macro as compared to GM. These may very well be the stats of the "Top Bronze League" as opposed to the average.
Ayaz2810
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2763 Posts
May 30 2013 23:47 GMT
#22
Brb, bookmarking this site. Great job!!
Vrtra Vanquisher/Tiamat Trouncer/World Serpent Slayer
GhostFiber
Profile Joined January 2012
Australia88 Posts
May 30 2013 23:49 GMT
#23
It's interesting that mirror-matches delay expansion timings the most.
dsjoerg
Profile Joined January 2012
United States384 Posts
May 31 2013 00:19 GMT
#24
On May 31 2013 08:49 GhostFiber wrote:
It's interesting that mirror-matches delay expansion timings the most.


Totally interesting! I would love to understand why that is.

Also, maybe I should make a version of the page where you pick a league and it shows stats for all matchups at once, making your kind of insight a little easier to achieve.
card-carrying grubby fan. developer of GGTracker.
fezvez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
France3021 Posts
May 31 2013 00:24 GMT
#25
On May 31 2013 08:49 GhostFiber wrote:
It's interesting that mirror-matches delay expansion timings the most.


Very interesting find!

Though I can explain it for every matchup, I do not see a deep reason that makes it obvious for all of them.
Wrathsc2
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2025 Posts
May 31 2013 00:24 GMT
#26
this is fucking amazing. nothing new ofcourse but still the gap between masters and GM feels very real.
A marine walks into a bar and asks, "Wheres the counter?"
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
May 31 2013 00:40 GMT
#27
Really cool data. Not really surprised by anything I might read on this. Accurately summarizes how aggressive/passive the different matchups are.
Insurrectionist
Profile Joined February 2011
Norway141 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-31 00:45:56
May 31 2013 00:45 GMT
#28
Interesting to see that Bronze is the 2nd fastest after GM to fully saturate their third - most likely because they expand so late that their main is mined out or as good as at 20 minutes, and they can send half their probes down, while the other leagues saturate 3 bases for longer.
KillingVector
Profile Joined June 2012
United States96 Posts
May 31 2013 01:02 GMT
#29
This is really cool! Just a couple questions. I'm assuming that for an XvY matchup, the timings are listed for X. Is this correct?

I would also be interested in seeing the standard deviations (maybe just as a plus/minus in the table). Do you plan to add those?

Great Work!
"In mathematics you don't understand things. You just get used to them." - John Von Neumann
dsjoerg
Profile Joined January 2012
United States384 Posts
May 31 2013 01:08 GMT
#30
On May 31 2013 10:02 KillingVector wrote:
This is really cool! Just a couple questions. I'm assuming that for an XvY matchup, the timings are listed for X. Is this correct?


Yes, I'm changing the wording now to make that more clear.


I would also be interested in seeing the standard deviations (maybe just as a plus/minus in the table). Do you plan to add those?


Hopefully I can find a good way to share the actual histograms. The last time I looked at the distributional data it was definitely not normal (if you know what i mean ).

Great Work!


Thank you!
card-carrying grubby fan. developer of GGTracker.
TheFish7
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States2824 Posts
May 31 2013 01:09 GMT
#31
On May 31 2013 05:30 arkedos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2013 05:26 TheFish7 wrote:
Interesting stats. This is only for PvZ?



you have to visit the site. the picture in the OP ist just an example.


Yea I won't click links while at work, no matter how legit they appear >.<

In PvP bronze players get their natural up faster than GM players. Thats pretty nuts actually.
~ ~ <°)))><~ ~ ~
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
May 31 2013 01:10 GMT
#32
On May 31 2013 08:24 Arolis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2013 05:30 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On May 31 2013 05:26 TheFish7 wrote:
Interesting stats. This is only for PvZ?

You really should click on links...


I think the most interesting thing here is how close the Bronze league timings are to Grandmaster. It's obviously not close, but it definitely shows how far the average skill level has increased since the early WoL days.

These are only the statistics for ~100,000 games though. You'll notice that there are thousands less games in Bronze compared even to Silver league. So it should be taken into consideration that there are a lot less macro focused players in bronze, which isn't surprising. I'm not sure how much inference can be made about the average Bronze leaguer's macro as compared to GM. These may very well be the stats of the "Top Bronze League" as opposed to the average.

The Top of Bronze League is still in the bottom 8%. That's a very large gap from the top 1%.

And just look at ZvP base timings. Yes, there's a notable speed difference across leagues, but the numbers show that everyone across every single league knows that you need to take a fast third base as Zerg...which conversely means most Protoss do a FFE (or Nexus first).

That's a drastic change from early WoL days, where Bronze-Gold league had absolutely nonsensical builds.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
dsjoerg
Profile Joined January 2012
United States384 Posts
May 31 2013 01:12 GMT
#33
On May 31 2013 08:49 GhostFiber wrote:
It's interesting that mirror-matches delay expansion timings the most.


OK! To make it easier for us all to see this and other stats compared across matchups, here's a view of all matchups on a single page: http://ggtracker.com/economy_stats2
card-carrying grubby fan. developer of GGTracker.
GenesisX
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada4267 Posts
May 31 2013 01:19 GMT
#34
Might just be from low sample of games, but I found ZvZ third base completed and full saturation of third base to be very interesting when comparing masters to GM players.
133 221 333 123 111
Pachacutec
Profile Joined March 2012
Peru53 Posts
May 31 2013 01:29 GMT
#35
On May 31 2013 06:37 Oboeman wrote:
Check it out, in PvP, bronze players expand faster than GM players, on average.

ignorence is a bliss
you look better in the shadows
guN-viCe
Profile Joined March 2010
United States687 Posts
May 31 2013 09:23 GMT
#36
Isn't this old information?

The faster you expo, the more peons you make, the sooner you can get a 3rd, and the sooner you can max out.
Never give up, never surrender!!! ~~ Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence -Sagan
BobMcJohnson
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
France2916 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-31 09:35:38
May 31 2013 09:33 GMT
#37
Interesting stats,

Would be cool to fix the time between income levels for terran since Mules fuck them up (since you can achieve the income before having the required number of bases). Dunno how you could fix it though, higher threshold maybe.
Romanes eunt domus
bluQ
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Germany1724 Posts
May 31 2013 09:44 GMT
#38
On May 31 2013 18:23 guN-viCe wrote:
Isn't this old information?

The faster you expo, the more peons you make, the sooner you can get a 3rd, and the sooner you can max out.

Dat math-genuis!!
www.twitch.tv/bluquh (PoE, Starbow, HS)
Targe
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom14103 Posts
May 31 2013 10:15 GMT
#39
On May 31 2013 10:29 Pachacutec wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2013 06:37 Oboeman wrote:
Check it out, in PvP, bronze players expand faster than GM players, on average.

ignorence is a bliss


Not quite sure what you're saying there.
11/5/14 CATACLYSM | The South West's worst Falco main
Cortza
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
South Africa328 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-31 10:51:43
May 31 2013 10:51 GMT
#40
On May 31 2013 19:15 Targe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2013 10:29 Pachacutec wrote:
On May 31 2013 06:37 Oboeman wrote:
Check it out, in PvP, bronze players expand faster than GM players, on average.

ignorence is a bliss


Not quite sure what you're saying there.


He means bronze players expand when they feel like it.
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