• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 11:24
CET 17:24
KST 01:24
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book15Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289HomeStory Cup 28 - Info & Preview13Rongyi Cup S3 - Preview & Info8herO wins SC2 All-Star Invitational14
Community News
ACS replaced by "ASL Season Open" - Starts 21/0218LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals (Feb 10-16)25Weekly Cups (Feb 2-8): Classic, Solar, MaxPax win2Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker10PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar)13
StarCraft 2
General
How do you think the 5.0.15 balance patch (Oct 2025) for StarCraft II has affected the game? Nexon's StarCraft game could be FPS, led by UMS maker Terran Scanner Sweep Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book Weekly Cups (Jan 12-18): herO, MaxPax, Solar win
Tourneys
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals (Feb 10-16) RSL Season 4 announced for March-April PIG STY FESTIVAL 7.0! (19 Feb - 1 Mar) RSL Revival: Season 4 Korea Qualifier (Feb 14) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ? [A] Starcraft Sound Mod
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 512 Overclocked Mutation # 511 Temple of Rebirth Mutation # 510 Safety Violation
Brood War
General
Which units you wish saw more use in the game? StarCraft player reflex TE scores [ASL21] Potential Map Candidates Gypsy to Korea ACS replaced by "ASL Season Open" - Starts 21/02
Tourneys
Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 1 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Small VOD Thread 2.0 KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Zealot bombing is no longer popular? Simple Questions, Simple Answers Current Meta
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Path of Exile Diablo 2 thread Battle Aces/David Kim RTS Megathread ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Ask and answer stupid questions here! European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread The Games Industry And ATVI Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
ADHD And Gaming Addiction…
TrAiDoS
My 2025 Magic: The Gathering…
DARKING
Life Update and thoughts.
FuDDx
How do archons sleep?
8882
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2001 users

Base Timings and Saturation Speed from 100k Games - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 Next All
Arolis
Profile Joined October 2010
United States496 Posts
May 30 2013 23:24 GMT
#21
On May 31 2013 05:30 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2013 05:26 TheFish7 wrote:
Interesting stats. This is only for PvZ?

You really should click on links...


I think the most interesting thing here is how close the Bronze league timings are to Grandmaster. It's obviously not close, but it definitely shows how far the average skill level has increased since the early WoL days.

These are only the statistics for ~100,000 games though. You'll notice that there are thousands less games in Bronze compared even to Silver league. So it should be taken into consideration that there are a lot less macro focused players in bronze, which isn't surprising. I'm not sure how much inference can be made about the average Bronze leaguer's macro as compared to GM. These may very well be the stats of the "Top Bronze League" as opposed to the average.
Ayaz2810
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2763 Posts
May 30 2013 23:47 GMT
#22
Brb, bookmarking this site. Great job!!
Vrtra Vanquisher/Tiamat Trouncer/World Serpent Slayer
GhostFiber
Profile Joined January 2012
Australia88 Posts
May 30 2013 23:49 GMT
#23
It's interesting that mirror-matches delay expansion timings the most.
dsjoerg
Profile Joined January 2012
United States384 Posts
May 31 2013 00:19 GMT
#24
On May 31 2013 08:49 GhostFiber wrote:
It's interesting that mirror-matches delay expansion timings the most.


Totally interesting! I would love to understand why that is.

Also, maybe I should make a version of the page where you pick a league and it shows stats for all matchups at once, making your kind of insight a little easier to achieve.
card-carrying grubby fan. developer of GGTracker.
fezvez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
France3021 Posts
May 31 2013 00:24 GMT
#25
On May 31 2013 08:49 GhostFiber wrote:
It's interesting that mirror-matches delay expansion timings the most.


Very interesting find!

Though I can explain it for every matchup, I do not see a deep reason that makes it obvious for all of them.
Wrathsc2
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2025 Posts
May 31 2013 00:24 GMT
#26
this is fucking amazing. nothing new ofcourse but still the gap between masters and GM feels very real.
A marine walks into a bar and asks, "Wheres the counter?"
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
May 31 2013 00:40 GMT
#27
Really cool data. Not really surprised by anything I might read on this. Accurately summarizes how aggressive/passive the different matchups are.
Insurrectionist
Profile Joined February 2011
Norway141 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-31 00:45:56
May 31 2013 00:45 GMT
#28
Interesting to see that Bronze is the 2nd fastest after GM to fully saturate their third - most likely because they expand so late that their main is mined out or as good as at 20 minutes, and they can send half their probes down, while the other leagues saturate 3 bases for longer.
KillingVector
Profile Joined June 2012
United States96 Posts
May 31 2013 01:02 GMT
#29
This is really cool! Just a couple questions. I'm assuming that for an XvY matchup, the timings are listed for X. Is this correct?

I would also be interested in seeing the standard deviations (maybe just as a plus/minus in the table). Do you plan to add those?

Great Work!
"In mathematics you don't understand things. You just get used to them." - John Von Neumann
dsjoerg
Profile Joined January 2012
United States384 Posts
May 31 2013 01:08 GMT
#30
On May 31 2013 10:02 KillingVector wrote:
This is really cool! Just a couple questions. I'm assuming that for an XvY matchup, the timings are listed for X. Is this correct?


Yes, I'm changing the wording now to make that more clear.


I would also be interested in seeing the standard deviations (maybe just as a plus/minus in the table). Do you plan to add those?


Hopefully I can find a good way to share the actual histograms. The last time I looked at the distributional data it was definitely not normal (if you know what i mean ).

Great Work!


Thank you!
card-carrying grubby fan. developer of GGTracker.
TheFish7
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States2824 Posts
May 31 2013 01:09 GMT
#31
On May 31 2013 05:30 arkedos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2013 05:26 TheFish7 wrote:
Interesting stats. This is only for PvZ?



you have to visit the site. the picture in the OP ist just an example.


Yea I won't click links while at work, no matter how legit they appear >.<

In PvP bronze players get their natural up faster than GM players. Thats pretty nuts actually.
~ ~ <°)))><~ ~ ~
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
May 31 2013 01:10 GMT
#32
On May 31 2013 08:24 Arolis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2013 05:30 WolfintheSheep wrote:
On May 31 2013 05:26 TheFish7 wrote:
Interesting stats. This is only for PvZ?

You really should click on links...


I think the most interesting thing here is how close the Bronze league timings are to Grandmaster. It's obviously not close, but it definitely shows how far the average skill level has increased since the early WoL days.

These are only the statistics for ~100,000 games though. You'll notice that there are thousands less games in Bronze compared even to Silver league. So it should be taken into consideration that there are a lot less macro focused players in bronze, which isn't surprising. I'm not sure how much inference can be made about the average Bronze leaguer's macro as compared to GM. These may very well be the stats of the "Top Bronze League" as opposed to the average.

The Top of Bronze League is still in the bottom 8%. That's a very large gap from the top 1%.

And just look at ZvP base timings. Yes, there's a notable speed difference across leagues, but the numbers show that everyone across every single league knows that you need to take a fast third base as Zerg...which conversely means most Protoss do a FFE (or Nexus first).

That's a drastic change from early WoL days, where Bronze-Gold league had absolutely nonsensical builds.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
dsjoerg
Profile Joined January 2012
United States384 Posts
May 31 2013 01:12 GMT
#33
On May 31 2013 08:49 GhostFiber wrote:
It's interesting that mirror-matches delay expansion timings the most.


OK! To make it easier for us all to see this and other stats compared across matchups, here's a view of all matchups on a single page: http://ggtracker.com/economy_stats2
card-carrying grubby fan. developer of GGTracker.
GenesisX
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada4267 Posts
May 31 2013 01:19 GMT
#34
Might just be from low sample of games, but I found ZvZ third base completed and full saturation of third base to be very interesting when comparing masters to GM players.
133 221 333 123 111
Pachacutec
Profile Joined March 2012
Peru53 Posts
May 31 2013 01:29 GMT
#35
On May 31 2013 06:37 Oboeman wrote:
Check it out, in PvP, bronze players expand faster than GM players, on average.

ignorence is a bliss
you look better in the shadows
guN-viCe
Profile Joined March 2010
United States687 Posts
May 31 2013 09:23 GMT
#36
Isn't this old information?

The faster you expo, the more peons you make, the sooner you can get a 3rd, and the sooner you can max out.
Never give up, never surrender!!! ~~ Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence -Sagan
BobMcJohnson
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
France2916 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-31 09:35:38
May 31 2013 09:33 GMT
#37
Interesting stats,

Would be cool to fix the time between income levels for terran since Mules fuck them up (since you can achieve the income before having the required number of bases). Dunno how you could fix it though, higher threshold maybe.
Romanes eunt domus
bluQ
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Germany1724 Posts
May 31 2013 09:44 GMT
#38
On May 31 2013 18:23 guN-viCe wrote:
Isn't this old information?

The faster you expo, the more peons you make, the sooner you can get a 3rd, and the sooner you can max out.

Dat math-genuis!!
www.twitch.tv/bluquh (PoE, Starbow, HS)
Targe
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom14103 Posts
May 31 2013 10:15 GMT
#39
On May 31 2013 10:29 Pachacutec wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2013 06:37 Oboeman wrote:
Check it out, in PvP, bronze players expand faster than GM players, on average.

ignorence is a bliss


Not quite sure what you're saying there.
11/5/14 CATACLYSM | The South West's worst Falco main
Cortza
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
South Africa328 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-31 10:51:43
May 31 2013 10:51 GMT
#40
On May 31 2013 19:15 Targe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 31 2013 10:29 Pachacutec wrote:
On May 31 2013 06:37 Oboeman wrote:
Check it out, in PvP, bronze players expand faster than GM players, on average.

ignorence is a bliss


Not quite sure what you're saying there.


He means bronze players expand when they feel like it.
Prev 1 2 3 4 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 31m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
UpATreeSC 798
Rex 62
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 40104
Calm 2180
Jaedong 1456
Flash 1308
Hyuk 887
firebathero 748
Soma 478
Stork 366
Light 347
Snow 260
[ Show more ]
Soulkey 170
Rush 127
Sea.KH 74
Movie 73
sorry 49
Leta 47
Hm[arnc] 47
Yoon 37
Aegong 34
soO 30
Shinee 28
ToSsGirL 27
Rock 27
Free 25
HiyA 24
910 22
IntoTheRainbow 19
JulyZerg 14
yabsab 14
Shine 13
ivOry 4
Dota 2
Gorgc7002
singsing3616
Fuzer 171
febbydoto6
League of Legends
Bonyth47
Counter-Strike
fl0m4426
shoxiejesuss2956
byalli577
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King129
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor792
Liquid`Hasu429
MindelVK55
Trikslyr36
Other Games
gofns10932
Mlord683
crisheroes444
Hui .157
KnowMe138
FrodaN137
ArmadaUGS104
Organizations
Counter-Strike
PGL31063
Other Games
EGCTV1086
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• StrangeGG 66
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix9
• Michael_bg 2
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos3330
Upcoming Events
PSISTORM Gaming Misc
31m
RSL Revival
1h 36m
AI Arena Tournament
3h 36m
Replay Cast
7h 36m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
17h 36m
LiuLi Cup
18h 36m
Maru vs Reynor
Serral vs Rogue
Ladder Legends
1d 1h
Replay Cast
1d 7h
Replay Cast
1d 16h
Wardi Open
1d 19h
[ Show More ]
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
OSC
2 days
WardiTV Winter Champion…
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
WardiTV Winter Champion…
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
PiG Sty Festival
4 days
The PondCast
4 days
KCM Race Survival
4 days
WardiTV Winter Champion…
4 days
Replay Cast
5 days
PiG Sty Festival
5 days
Epic.LAN
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
PiG Sty Festival
6 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Epic.LAN
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Escore Tournament S1: W8
Rongyi Cup S3
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
LiuLi Cup: 2025 Grand Finals
Nations Cup 2026
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S1: King of Kings
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 1st Round
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 1st Round Qualifier
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 2nd Round
[S:21] ASL SEASON OPEN 2nd Round Qualifier
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
RSL Revival: Season 4
WardiTV Winter 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
FISSURE Playground #3
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
ESL Pro League Season 23
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.