EPTmade me laugh when i saw that bronze toss are expanding faster than gm toss in PvP
Base Timings and Saturation Speed from 100k Games - Page 3
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Germany4057 Posts
made me laugh when i saw that bronze toss are expanding faster than gm toss in PvP | ||
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Demicore
France503 Posts
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On May 31 2013 19:51 Cortza wrote: He means bronze players expand when they feel like it. Ahh, I thought it might have been that, I'm sure GM aggression in PvP is far more potent than bronze level aggression. | ||
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FCReverie
Australia103 Posts
On May 31 2013 09:24 fezvez wrote: Very interesting find! Though I can explain it for every matchup, I do not see a deep reason that makes it obvious for all of them. Because every mirror if you put money into expo early and they put the same money into units you will probably not come out of it well. It is especially noticeable in ZVZ and PvP because of the lack of seige tanks. | ||
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mnck
Denmark1518 Posts
 Excellent! | ||
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On May 31 2013 22:22 FCReverie wrote: Because every mirror if you put money into expo early and they put the same money into units you will probably not come out of it well. It is especially noticeable in ZVZ and PvP because of the lack of seige tanks. I know what you mean, but I wonder if the same is true of non-mirror matchups. So, consider PvT. If one player puts money into expo early and the other puts the same money into units, won't the attacker have an advantage? Most people here will say, "no, in non-mirror matchups a competent defender can hold their natural against a 1-base push". So what is it about mirror matchups that makes it harder for a competent defender to hold their natural against a 1-base push? P has the same static defense options regardless of which race they're up against. Not try to be argumentative at all, just honestly trying to understand this. EDIT: their they're there | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
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Fjodorov
5007 Posts
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Meow-Meow
Germany451 Posts
Does the "Time from 3rd Base Complete to 3 Base Mineral Income (1920)"-info still work when my main is slightly under-saturated by the point my third is fully saturated? I often find myself with 10-15 drones in my main by the point my third is fully mining, or only 4-8 when my 4th is up. | ||
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00higgo
Australia119 Posts
Ty to the poster and anyone at ggtracker <3 | ||
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On May 31 2013 23:09 Meow-Meow wrote: Wow, this site is so neat. Simple, clutter-free and really informative. Does the "Time from 3rd Base Complete to 3 Base Mineral Income (1920)"-info still work when my main is slightly under-saturated by the point my third is fully saturated? I often find myself with 10-15 drones in my main by the point my third is fully mining, or only 4-8 when my 4th is up. Probably not. It is simply measuring the time from when your 3rd mining base is complete to when you hit 1920 mineral income. To get 1920 mineral income, you need to have 48 workers on 24 mineral patches, or more workers on a smaller number of patches. | ||
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SpikeStarcraft
Germany2095 Posts
On May 31 2013 22:41 dsjoerg wrote: I know what you mean, but I wonder if the same is true of non-mirror matchups. So, consider PvT. If one player puts money into expo early and the other puts the same money into units, won't the attacker have an advantage? Most people here will say, "no, in non-mirror matchups a competent defender can hold their natural against a 1-base push". So what is it about mirror matchups that makes it harder for a competent defender to hold their natural against a 1-base push? P has the same static defense options regardless of which race they're up against. Not try to be argumentative at all, just honestly trying to understand this. EDIT: their they're there Its because you have more effective only mineral requiring counters in non-mirror match ups. In mirror match ups everyone has the same units and possibilities and you cannot build a composition with only minerals that will defend almost everything. For example: TvP : Static defense like bunker and/or turrets + marines can basically defend everything that protoss can build and will buy you enough time to get medivacs and stim. So you dont initially have to open with gas. Medivac and Stim > everything protoss can do on one base. Exception: blink stalker allin on some maps. Thats hard to hold, because protoss can circumvent bunkers and its hard to place them correctly. There it would be easier to defend when you open with gas and get stim and marauders faster. TvT: Gasless expand is very risky. There is a variety of openings that can easily kill you or put you behind if you only have mineral options like marine, bunker and turrets. For example: Hellbat drop. Its almost guaranteed damage if your opponent played a gasless expand. you can drop on marines and kill them the defender has to build bunkers and turrets and yet in most cases you cannot prevent worker losses and lost mining time. Especially if you have to defend two bases. Gasless expands are the fastest but they limit your options to defend. In some mirror match ups its nearly impossible to defend without gas. The more gas you take, the later is your expand but you have more options to defend. Other examples: in ZvT you can basically hold every possible agressive option from terran with minerals. Especially because of queens. Thats why it has the fastest 2nd base of all matchups. (thank you queenbuff) | ||
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Basher_
82 Posts
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LeeDawg
United States1306 Posts
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Jezebeth
United States23 Posts
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iGn1t3
Hong Kong73 Posts
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Greendotz
United Kingdom2053 Posts
*edit* Also I bet mules will also skew the saturation speed timing, especially the 3rd, they've obviously just dumped about 5 mules. I think the T figures should be taken with a pinch of salt | ||
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ReignSupreme.
Australia4123 Posts
On June 01 2013 20:53 Greendotz wrote: Quick question, for Terran do the stats register the moment the CC is complete, or the moment the CC is landed at it's mining location? *edit* Also I bet mules will also skew the saturation speed timing, especially the 3rd, they've obviously just dumped about 5 mules. I think the T figures should be taken with a pinch of salt I assume Mining Location as it does state it doesnt include macro hatch's | ||
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On June 01 2013 20:57 ReignSupreme. wrote: I assume Mining Location as it does state it doesnt include macro hatch's Correct, the base must be complete and in a mining location to be counted. | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
So in a non mirror matchup you often know that there is a very low probability of a strong timing attack hitting you when you're at your most "powered" stage of your powering. If an attack nonetheless hits you at such an awkward timing, it's almost always an all-in (only thing you need to do is defend). In mirror matchups the potential for aggression and the timings/strengths of the potential aggression are the same. There is no "silent consensus", as there is in PvZ when the Protoss FEs, that the next 4 minutes are safe for powering. If one player expands but the other doesn't in a mirror, that means something because of the symmetrical nature of timings/strengths/units in mirrors. It's unfortunate that there are so few GM replays. The few zergs who uploaded GM reps in particular seem to have performed worse than Masters level. In general though, there doesn't seem to be a huge difference between GM and Master. Up to 2 bases income it's mostly 5% or less. 3 bases around 10% or less (excepting the zerg GM). I think that if there were to exist a potential for 4base 5base 6base incomes, the difference would naturally compound for every additional base. So definitely some interesting data for me as a proponent for a revision of the economic system! | ||
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