|
Hi, here are some stats about 2nd and 3rd base timing, and the speed of mineral-income saturation for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd bases: check it out.
It's interactive, so you gotta click over to play with it, but anyway here's what it looks like:
The stats are drawn from ~100,000 1v1 Ladder HotS games played since May 8th.
All the info is divided out by matchup and league.
The base timings are for completed bases in mining position -- so macro bases aren't counted.
The saturation speeds measure the time lag from when your 2nd/3rd mining base is complete to when you have 2x/3x saturated mining income, that is the income earned by 16 workers on minerals. The idea being that once you have invested the resources into having a base up, you might as well be getting full income value from it.
As a lowly Gold Protoss, I built this so I could know what people are doing on average in my league and the leagues above me. Of course the timing in any game will vary based on your strategy and tactical considerations.
If you are varying from these averages and you have a good reason, then great. But if you are significantly slower or faster than these and you find that surprising, then maybe you can profitably adjust your playstyle.
In any individual game you can see that game's timings by clicking on the new Economy button:
|
Interesting stats. This is only for PvZ?
|
On May 31 2013 05:26 TheFish7 wrote:
Interesting stats. This is only for PvZ?
On May 31 2013 05:23 dsjoerg wrote:
All the info is divided out by matchup and league.
|
On May 31 2013 05:26 TheFish7 wrote:
Interesting stats. This is only for PvZ?
you have to visit the site. the picture in the OP ist just an example.
|
On May 31 2013 05:26 TheFish7 wrote:
Interesting stats. This is only for PvZ?
You really should click on links...
I think the most interesting thing here is how close the Bronze league timings are to Grandmaster. It's obviously not close, but it definitely shows how far the average skill level has increased since the early WoL days.
|
Cool to look at, even if it does just show you what you are expecting --in most cases higher league players get expos faster/saturated faster, even though there are a few exceptions
|
That is some super sexy statistics.
Of course, it confirms a lot of things, things that we pretty much expected. Bronze players saturate slower than master players, and there is a quicker expansion in ZvT than in PvP.
But, the personalized tool looks damn cool. That's a really cool job!
Edit : By the way, sometimes, the values for GM are a bit strange. You have to note that the sample size is often really really small (like 15 games of GM level as opposed to 5000 games of master level)
|
Yeah I was tempted to remove the GM column entirely due to low # of samples, but the page is going to automatically update every day, so if people start uploading GM games, then we'll start to see more meaningful stats there too.
|
I'm starting to really really love this site.
|
On May 31 2013 05:36 dsjoerg wrote:
Yeah I was tempted to remove the GM column entirely due to low # of samples, but the page is going to automatically update every day, so if people start uploading GM games, then we'll start to see more meaningful stats there too.
How low is this ? If you have 100 000 of games in total, it can't be that bad ? =)
Assuming the GM column is correct, I find these stats highly interesting! Looking from a zerg perspective, the third basically gets saturated faster and faster from bronze to masters! However in GM ZvZ or ZvT, it actually gets saturated abit slower than masters league which I find really interesting! Being in masters, this could tell me that heavy aggression might be preferable in ZvZ before fully saturating the third for a long time (which corresponds my own experience) and for ZvT I feel like many Zergs are guilty of just rushing up to a full three base economy regardless of what build the Terran is going because they are quite used to play against the heavy macro style from Terran and this might entail some losses.
Regardless thanks for sharing this !
Edit: Err... The numbers were posted and they are actually listed on the site...My bad. Yeah, wish more GM players would get their act together and start using this. Still, I prefer having it there as it might hint towards certain things..
|
While the sample size may screw up a few things, I think it's really interesting to see what a huge gap exists between the average master league player and grandmasters.
|
This is pretty awesome. Good job!
|
well the matchups for gm league have between 9 and 33 matches each. Thats a very low number.. for 22 days...
i dunno why the numbers are so low..
but i really like those stats and its a good clean analysis. I really like that youve chosen meaningful indicators and that you didnt make any weird interpretations but let the numbers speak for themselves instead.
I just realized you are the same guy that did that stuff with the inject percentage. While i didnt approve on that topic back then, i really like how you've improved your analytical methods.
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
This tells us sooo much more than efficient with injects does  nicely done.
|
hmm. i thought the gap would be much higher. especially for 3rds
|
Check it out, in PvP, bronze players expand faster than GM players, on average.
|
I think its interesting and valuable when looking at the difference in full saturation timing between 1 - 2 - 3 base by race. While mostly its already intrinsically known it helps to understand potential timings strength and weakness by match-up. For instance, Zerg has the fastest one base saturation but the slowest 2nd base saturation. Terran has slow 1st base saturation but the fastest 2nd and 3rd base saturation due to the mule factor etc... Toss seems to be somewhere in the middle. Pros are already great at pinpointing those timings by match-up, build, map etc... but this kind of information makes it easier for us non pro's to understand some of the secret sauce to their success.
|
This is awesome. This is one easy way to see where a player is performing compared to everybody else. While this may not be the determining factor in deciding if a player is playing at the next league's level, it gives an easy benchmark for people to shoot for. Well done!
|
PvP doesn't really change much from bronze to GM. No wonder I feel stupid playing that MU 
|
JUST FOR ANYONE WHO DIDNT FIGURE IT OUT: The first race you select on the left is the data displayed.
|
On May 31 2013 05:30 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 05:26 TheFish7 wrote:
Interesting stats. This is only for PvZ? You really should click on links... I think the most interesting thing here is how close the Bronze league timings are to Grandmaster. It's obviously not close, but it definitely shows how far the average skill level has increased since the early WoL days.
These are only the statistics for ~100,000 games though. You'll notice that there are thousands less games in Bronze compared even to Silver league. So it should be taken into consideration that there are a lot less macro focused players in bronze, which isn't surprising. I'm not sure how much inference can be made about the average Bronze leaguer's macro as compared to GM. These may very well be the stats of the "Top Bronze League" as opposed to the average.
|
Brb, bookmarking this site. Great job!!
|
It's interesting that mirror-matches delay expansion timings the most.
|
On May 31 2013 08:49 GhostFiber wrote:
It's interesting that mirror-matches delay expansion timings the most.
Totally interesting! I would love to understand why that is.
Also, maybe I should make a version of the page where you pick a league and it shows stats for all matchups at once, making your kind of insight a little easier to achieve.
|
On May 31 2013 08:49 GhostFiber wrote:
It's interesting that mirror-matches delay expansion timings the most.
Very interesting find!
Though I can explain it for every matchup, I do not see a deep reason that makes it obvious for all of them.
|
this is fucking amazing. nothing new ofcourse but still the gap between masters and GM feels very real.
|
Really cool data. Not really surprised by anything I might read on this. Accurately summarizes how aggressive/passive the different matchups are.
|
Interesting to see that Bronze is the 2nd fastest after GM to fully saturate their third - most likely because they expand so late that their main is mined out or as good as at 20 minutes, and they can send half their probes down, while the other leagues saturate 3 bases for longer.
|
This is really cool! Just a couple questions. I'm assuming that for an XvY matchup, the timings are listed for X. Is this correct?
I would also be interested in seeing the standard deviations (maybe just as a plus/minus in the table). Do you plan to add those?
Great Work!
|
On May 31 2013 10:02 KillingVector wrote:
This is really cool! Just a couple questions. I'm assuming that for an XvY matchup, the timings are listed for X. Is this correct?
Yes, I'm changing the wording now to make that more clear.
I would also be interested in seeing the standard deviations (maybe just as a plus/minus in the table). Do you plan to add those?
Hopefully I can find a good way to share the actual histograms. The last time I looked at the distributional data it was definitely not normal (if you know what i mean  ).
Great Work!
Thank you!
|
On May 31 2013 05:30 arkedos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 05:26 TheFish7 wrote:
Interesting stats. This is only for PvZ? you have to visit the site. the picture in the OP ist just an example.
Yea I won't click links while at work, no matter how legit they appear >.<
In PvP bronze players get their natural up faster than GM players. Thats pretty nuts actually.
|
On May 31 2013 08:24 Arolis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 05:30 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 31 2013 05:26 TheFish7 wrote:
Interesting stats. This is only for PvZ? You really should click on links... I think the most interesting thing here is how close the Bronze league timings are to Grandmaster. It's obviously not close, but it definitely shows how far the average skill level has increased since the early WoL days. These are only the statistics for ~100,000 games though. You'll notice that there are thousands less games in Bronze compared even to Silver league. So it should be taken into consideration that there are a lot less macro focused players in bronze, which isn't surprising. I'm not sure how much inference can be made about the average Bronze leaguer's macro as compared to GM. These may very well be the stats of the "Top Bronze League" as opposed to the average.
The Top of Bronze League is still in the bottom 8%. That's a very large gap from the top 1%.
And just look at ZvP base timings. Yes, there's a notable speed difference across leagues, but the numbers show that everyone across every single league knows that you need to take a fast third base as Zerg...which conversely means most Protoss do a FFE (or Nexus first).
That's a drastic change from early WoL days, where Bronze-Gold league had absolutely nonsensical builds.
|
On May 31 2013 08:49 GhostFiber wrote:
It's interesting that mirror-matches delay expansion timings the most.
OK! To make it easier for us all to see this and other stats compared across matchups, here's a view of all matchups on a single page: http://ggtracker.com/economy_stats2
|
Might just be from low sample of games, but I found ZvZ third base completed and full saturation of third base to be very interesting when comparing masters to GM players.
|
On May 31 2013 06:37 Oboeman wrote:
Check it out, in PvP, bronze players expand faster than GM players, on average.
ignorence is a bliss
|
Isn't this old information?
The faster you expo, the more peons you make, the sooner you can get a 3rd, and the sooner you can max out.
|
Interesting stats,
Would be cool to fix the time between income levels for terran since Mules fuck them up (since you can achieve the income before having the required number of bases). Dunno how you could fix it though, higher threshold maybe.
|
On May 31 2013 18:23 guN-viCe wrote:
Isn't this old information?
The faster you expo, the more peons you make, the sooner you can get a 3rd, and the sooner you can max out.
Dat math-genuis!!
|
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On May 31 2013 10:29 Pachacutec wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 06:37 Oboeman wrote:
Check it out, in PvP, bronze players expand faster than GM players, on average. ignorence is a bliss
Not quite sure what you're saying there.
|
On May 31 2013 19:15 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 10:29 Pachacutec wrote:On May 31 2013 06:37 Oboeman wrote:
Check it out, in PvP, bronze players expand faster than GM players, on average. ignorence is a bliss Not quite sure what you're saying there.
He means bronze players expand when they feel like it.
|
really cool.
made me laugh when i saw that bronze toss are expanding faster than gm toss in PvP
|
Really well done and quite enlightening, thanks for the hard work 
|
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On May 31 2013 19:51 Cortza wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 19:15 Targe wrote:On May 31 2013 10:29 Pachacutec wrote:On May 31 2013 06:37 Oboeman wrote:
Check it out, in PvP, bronze players expand faster than GM players, on average. ignorence is a bliss Not quite sure what you're saying there. He means bronze players expand when they feel like it.
Ahh, I thought it might have been that, I'm sure GM aggression in PvP is far more potent than bronze level aggression.
|
On May 31 2013 09:24 fezvez wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 08:49 GhostFiber wrote:
It's interesting that mirror-matches delay expansion timings the most. Very interesting find! Though I can explain it for every matchup, I do not see a deep reason that makes it obvious for all of them.
Because every mirror if you put money into expo early and they put the same money into units you will probably not come out of it well. It is especially noticeable in ZVZ and PvP because of the lack of seige tanks.
|
GGtracker keeps getting better Excellent!
|
On May 31 2013 22:22 FCReverie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 09:24 fezvez wrote:On May 31 2013 08:49 GhostFiber wrote:
It's interesting that mirror-matches delay expansion timings the most. Very interesting find! Though I can explain it for every matchup, I do not see a deep reason that makes it obvious for all of them. Because every mirror if you put money into expo early and they put the same money into units you will probably not come out of it well. It is especially noticeable in ZVZ and PvP because of the lack of seige tanks.
I know what you mean, but I wonder if the same is true of non-mirror matchups. So, consider PvT. If one player puts money into expo early and the other puts the same money into units, won't the attacker have an advantage? Most people here will say, "no, in non-mirror matchups a competent defender can hold their natural against a 1-base push".
So what is it about mirror matchups that makes it harder for a competent defender to hold their natural against a 1-base push? P has the same static defense options regardless of which race they're up against.
Not try to be argumentative at all, just honestly trying to understand this.
EDIT: their they're there
|
wonder what mkp's base timing stats looks like
|
ty for the interesting stats. Well done
|
Wow, this site is so neat. Simple, clutter-free and really informative.
Does the "Time from 3rd Base Complete to 3 Base Mineral Income (1920)"-info still work when my main is slightly under-saturated by the point my third is fully saturated? I often find myself with 10-15 drones in my main by the point my third is fully mining, or only 4-8 when my 4th is up.
|
I think this will really help me Ty to the poster and anyone at ggtracker <3
|
On May 31 2013 23:09 Meow-Meow wrote:
Wow, this site is so neat. Simple, clutter-free and really informative.
Does the "Time from 3rd Base Complete to 3 Base Mineral Income (1920)"-info still work when my main is slightly under-saturated by the point my third is fully saturated? I often find myself with 10-15 drones in my main by the point my third is fully mining, or only 4-8 when my 4th is up.
Probably not. It is simply measuring the time from when your 3rd mining base is complete to when you hit 1920 mineral income. To get 1920 mineral income, you need to have 48 workers on 24 mineral patches, or more workers on a smaller number of patches.
|
On May 31 2013 22:41 dsjoerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2013 22:22 FCReverie wrote:On May 31 2013 09:24 fezvez wrote:On May 31 2013 08:49 GhostFiber wrote:
It's interesting that mirror-matches delay expansion timings the most. Very interesting find! Though I can explain it for every matchup, I do not see a deep reason that makes it obvious for all of them. Because every mirror if you put money into expo early and they put the same money into units you will probably not come out of it well. It is especially noticeable in ZVZ and PvP because of the lack of seige tanks. I know what you mean, but I wonder if the same is true of non-mirror matchups. So, consider PvT. If one player puts money into expo early and the other puts the same money into units, won't the attacker have an advantage? Most people here will say, "no, in non-mirror matchups a competent defender can hold their natural against a 1-base push". So what is it about mirror matchups that makes it harder for a competent defender to hold their natural against a 1-base push? P has the same static defense options regardless of which race they're up against. Not try to be argumentative at all, just honestly trying to understand this. EDIT: their they're there
Its because you have more effective only mineral requiring counters in non-mirror match ups. In mirror match ups everyone has the same units and possibilities and you cannot build a composition with only minerals that will defend almost everything.
For example:
TvP : Static defense like bunker and/or turrets + marines can basically defend everything that protoss can build and will buy you enough time to get medivacs and stim. So you dont initially have to open with gas. Medivac and Stim > everything protoss can do on one base.
Exception: blink stalker allin on some maps. Thats hard to hold, because protoss can circumvent bunkers and its hard to place them correctly. There it would be easier to defend when you open with gas and get stim and marauders faster.
TvT: Gasless expand is very risky. There is a variety of openings that can easily kill you or put you behind if you only have mineral options like marine, bunker and turrets. For example: Hellbat drop. Its almost guaranteed damage if your opponent played a gasless expand. you can drop on marines and kill them the defender has to build bunkers and turrets and yet in most cases you cannot prevent worker losses and lost mining time. Especially if you have to defend two bases.
Gasless expands are the fastest but they limit your options to defend. In some mirror match ups its nearly impossible to defend without gas. The more gas you take, the later is your expand but you have more options to defend.
Other examples: in ZvT you can basically hold every possible agressive option from terran with minerals. Especially because of queens. Thats why it has the fastest 2nd base of all matchups. (thank you queenbuff)
|
very cool. great job making this.
|
|
|
Well put together! I am liking this site more and more every time something comes up about it. The numbers are nice, the info is clean... Well done. I would like to see the histograms you promised though lol I like histograms, they show trends that are fantastic to pick out. Again, well done and thank you!
|
This is very neat. Thanks dude! Looks like the faster you get those up, safely, the faster you can become GM. ;p
|
Quick question, for Terran do the stats register the moment the CC is complete, or the moment the CC is landed at it's mining location?
*edit* Also I bet mules will also skew the saturation speed timing, especially the 3rd, they've obviously just dumped about 5 mules. I think the T figures should be taken with a pinch of salt
|
On June 01 2013 20:53 Greendotz wrote:
Quick question, for Terran do the stats register the moment the CC is complete, or the moment the CC is landed at it's mining location?
*edit* Also I bet mules will also skew the saturation speed timing, especially the 3rd, they've obviously just dumped about 5 mules. I think the T figures should be taken with a pinch of salt
I assume Mining Location as it does state it doesnt include macro hatch's
|
On June 01 2013 20:57 ReignSupreme. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 20:53 Greendotz wrote:
Quick question, for Terran do the stats register the moment the CC is complete, or the moment the CC is landed at it's mining location?
*edit* Also I bet mules will also skew the saturation speed timing, especially the 3rd, they've obviously just dumped about 5 mules. I think the T figures should be taken with a pinch of salt I assume Mining Location as it does state it doesnt include macro hatch's
Correct, the base must be complete and in a mining location to be counted.
|
I think all the races have differing but specific timing potentials for aggression. In a non mirror matchup these timings will not sync up as much as they do in mirror matchups.
So in a non mirror matchup you often know that there is a very low probability of a strong timing attack hitting you when you're at your most "powered" stage of your powering. If an attack nonetheless hits you at such an awkward timing, it's almost always an all-in (only thing you need to do is defend).
In mirror matchups the potential for aggression and the timings/strengths of the potential aggression are the same. There is no "silent consensus", as there is in PvZ when the Protoss FEs, that the next 4 minutes are safe for powering. If one player expands but the other doesn't in a mirror, that means something because of the symmetrical nature of timings/strengths/units in mirrors.
It's unfortunate that there are so few GM replays. The few zergs who uploaded GM reps in particular seem to have performed worse than Masters level. In general though, there doesn't seem to be a huge difference between GM and Master. Up to 2 bases income it's mostly 5% or less. 3 bases around 10% or less (excepting the zerg GM).
I think that if there were to exist a potential for 4base 5base 6base incomes, the difference would naturally compound for every additional base. So definitely some interesting data for me as a proponent for a revision of the economic system!
|
this is not edit:completely accurate due to smurfs in bronze league going 5 hatch/cc before anything, which tbh smurfs probably make up a nice 10% of bronze to platinum league
|
For terran's, does this show when the cc is completed or when it's landed on the mining base?
|
On June 02 2013 02:53 Algis wrote:
For terran's, does this show when the cc is completed or when it's landed on the mining base?
CC must be landed in mining position. For CCs that are built in mining position, they must be completed finished with construction.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/p2urYHw.png?1)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FzPZ2wI.png?1)
