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On May 05 2013 04:16 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 02:49 Leporello wrote:
The Queen patch was necessary, because hellions. Sorry, it's true. A) Top zergs were already figuring out how to break hellion contain with minimal cost. B) Wall-in with queen + evo etc. is still used after queen buff, and would be as good for preventing run-by without range buff. But hey, I guess the queen patch was necessary to hold off hellions without spending larvae on a single unit that counters hellions.
Very well said. I really don't know how anyone could claim "it was necessary" and hold a straight face.
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there was no tension... it was like yeah im gonna go in with hellions so what? now its like hmm should i go in with hellions?
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On May 05 2013 18:11 mishimaBeef wrote:
there was no tension... it was like yeah im gonna go in with hellions so what? now its like hmm should i go in with hellions?
Maybe you are right,but in the early stages of the Reactor Hellion build there was NO wall in the Zergs natural and they are were saying "we are not T and cant build a wall".After few weeks they began building evo chambers with a spine and 1-2 queens to defend.No way hellions to runby!Now i was "hmm should I TRY to go in with hellions maybe losing one or two of them to spine+queen?"
We lost the micro moment where hellions could kite queens and deny creep.Actually there is no way to deny the early 3rd of the Zerg.Hellion/banshee is death already,because queens+spore defend it all.
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I think after we get the May monthly statistics.
We can get a idea on the match-ups.
But for now TvZ seems to favor Terran quite a bit.
1.Spore buff 100% will go through.But ZvZ will still be Muta vs Muta
2.Burrow change has a 50/50 chance of going through.
3.Oracle buff won't go through.
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On May 05 2013 20:39 FakeDeath wrote:
I think after we get the May monthly statistics.
We can get a idea on the match-ups.
But for now TvZ seems to favor Terran quite a bit.
1.Spore buff 100% will go through.But ZvZ will still be Muta vs Muta
2.Burrow change has a 50/50 chance of going through.
3.Oracle buff won't go through.
The T got the advantage now only because almost every Zerg(I even saw Shine in RO16 GSL)goes "amove" into the T army as before.With mines available and the big splash they provide its not more costefficient even if you face only marines with lot of ling-bane-muta.Mines are less gass than tanks and you got more medivacs to heal,but usually Zergs just amove and expect to win and get rage after seeing its impossible and still losing 4th or 5th to a single drop,because of the non-existent defense there.They still play the WoL style and are not used to make Overseers and send them in front before the battle or lings to activate mines...
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On May 05 2013 20:45 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 20:39 FakeDeath wrote:
I think after we get the May monthly statistics.
We can get a idea on the match-ups.
But for now TvZ seems to favor Terran quite a bit.
1.Spore buff 100% will go through.But ZvZ will still be Muta vs Muta
2.Burrow change has a 50/50 chance of going through.
3.Oracle buff won't go through. The T got the advantage now only because almost every Zerg(I even saw Shine in RO16 GSL)goes "amove" into the T army as before.With mines available and the big splash they provide its not more costefficient even if you face only marines with lot of ling-bane-muta.Mines are less gass than tanks and you got more medivacs to heal,but usually Zergs just amove and expect to win and get rage after seeing its impossible and still losing 4th or 5th to a single drop,because of the non-existent defense there.They still play the WoL style and are not used to make Overseers and send them in front before the battle or lings to activate mines...
At pro level they do make Overseers. The problem is not that you don't see the mines, the problem is that they mean that you cannot attack in the position. To activate the mines you need quite some zerglings because the bio is defending them (only a few of them won't cut it). What would be the WoL style? I see no infestors here..unless we are going back years which is just dumb. Please, keep yourself from generalizing especially when you don't give a viable solution.
Edit: I suppose that zergs were a-moving before to splash the banes into the tanks and lose zerglings/mutas against biomedivac, right?
I am not saying that there is a big disadvantage for zerg but sure there is one.
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On May 05 2013 11:26 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 04:16 plogamer wrote:On May 05 2013 02:49 Leporello wrote:
The Queen patch was necessary, because hellions. Sorry, it's true. A) Top zergs were already figuring out how to break hellion contain with minimal cost. B) Wall-in with queen + evo etc. is still used after queen buff, and would be as good for preventing run-by without range buff. But hey, I guess the queen patch was necessary to hold off hellions without spending larvae on a single unit that counters hellions. Very well said. I really don't know how anyone could claim "it was necessary" and hold a straight face.
The Queen patch was completely unnecessary for balance because TvZ at that point was extremely even and exciting to watch. I don't even remember that people were complaining about it, it was completely out of the nowhere. Originally it was +25 energy, then without communication and thorough testing they gave +2 range. While Terran certainly dominated for a longer period due to balance, the Zerg domination probably hurt SC2 more.
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On May 05 2013 20:50 Karpfen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 20:45 Dvriel wrote:On May 05 2013 20:39 FakeDeath wrote:
I think after we get the May monthly statistics.
We can get a idea on the match-ups.
But for now TvZ seems to favor Terran quite a bit.
1.Spore buff 100% will go through.But ZvZ will still be Muta vs Muta
2.Burrow change has a 50/50 chance of going through.
3.Oracle buff won't go through. The T got the advantage now only because almost every Zerg(I even saw Shine in RO16 GSL)goes "amove" into the T army as before.With mines available and the big splash they provide its not more costefficient even if you face only marines with lot of ling-bane-muta.Mines are less gass than tanks and you got more medivacs to heal,but usually Zergs just amove and expect to win and get rage after seeing its impossible and still losing 4th or 5th to a single drop,because of the non-existent defense there.They still play the WoL style and are not used to make Overseers and send them in front before the battle or lings to activate mines... At pro level they do make Overseers. The problem is not that you don't see the mines, the problem is that they mean that you cannot attack in the position. To activate the mines you need quite some zerglings because the bio is defending them (only a few of them won't cut it). What would be the WoL style? I see no infestors here..unless we are going back years which is just dumb. Please, keep yourself from generalizing especially when you don't give a viable solution.
The WoL style with ling-muta-baneling is: amoving into the T army which is Marine/tank/medivac.Chasing marines with banelings trying to connect while lings kill tanks surrounding them and mutas maybe focus tanks or medivacs.The Terran player must focus fire banelings with tanks while stim and run spreading marines to avoid banelings conect while killing mutas and keeping medivacs stale to be healed.This is now impossible because you cant see mines and they do much bigger splash damage than tanks, so you CAN NOT amove like in WoL.Infestors are still OK for me.Dont understand why arent used as much as before.The missile is OK and is not so easy to avoid and there are no tanks to focus fire infestors as before.
In HotS Zerg must try to catch terran army before mines are activated or try kill them as quick as possible with the Overseers spotting them,but if you see them burrow you must go back,and the Zergs are not used to do it,because of the old ling-bane-muta style I mentioned before.
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On May 05 2013 20:56 Thrillz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 11:26 DemigodcelpH wrote:On May 05 2013 04:16 plogamer wrote:On May 05 2013 02:49 Leporello wrote:
The Queen patch was necessary, because hellions. Sorry, it's true. A) Top zergs were already figuring out how to break hellion contain with minimal cost. B) Wall-in with queen + evo etc. is still used after queen buff, and would be as good for preventing run-by without range buff. But hey, I guess the queen patch was necessary to hold off hellions without spending larvae on a single unit that counters hellions. Very well said. I really don't know how anyone could claim "it was necessary" and hold a straight face. The Queen was completely unnecessary for balance because TvZ at that point was extremely even and exciting to watch. I don't even remember that people were complaining about it, it was completely out of the nowhere. Originally it was +25 energy, then without communication and thorough testing they gave +2 range. Terran certainly dominated for a longer period, but the Zerg domination probably hurt SC2 more.
I think they asked the community if they wanted the range or the energy and the range "won".. not 100% sure though. Both dominations were equally bad but zerg's one was more unaesthetic. T dominated with speedy units while Z with a huge ball of immortality. Zerg, in the last part of WoL was clearly overpowered as hell. No one can argue against that. What's worse is that the "internal" balance of the race was extremely lacking.. infestors was the way to go, hydras were crap, mutas were decent but not as good as infestors. The queen allowed the zerg to get a solid defense without stopping drone production (it was acting like other races in the sense that they could make both workers and units just with a massive production). Right now the queen is not imbalanced though.
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But for now TvZ seems to favor Terran quite a bit.
Thats because Terran is all about exploiting weaknesses in the early game and the more time you play against T the more you learn how to defend those and their timings. The more time passes on the better you responses are and the more you know. Lets take a reaper opening for example: when hots got realeased every zerg would lose 2-3 drones to a single reaper and IdrA almost smashed his monitor or punched DemusliM in his face since they used to sit right next to each other. How often do you see a zerg players lose a drone to the reaper nowadays? that almost doesnt happen at all.
You guys remember how parting made him self look pathetic when he typed about the imba medevacs losing to Flash @ MLG? Havent we just seen him 2-0 flash in group B of code S? This game should be given time.
The only part of the game I personally think should be given a look at is the late game where tempest seem to be killing everything with zergs not really having an option against a composition with them. Neither terrans do have one against that too since BC just get spanked by high templars and tempest. But as I said, it all should be given time. I would still wait with buffing/nerfing for 2-3 months.
As for burrow i could agree on it being 50/50 but @ lair tech, its far too good of an ubgrade and has too much all in potential @ hatch tech and all ins is not what community nor the viewers are interested in right?
The oracle is very good in its current form, giving it a speed boost would just make PvT imba since then nothing would catch those and they already fry everything that is terran in the early game ultra fast. As an argument for buffing those Kim stated more or less that it only takes a turret. Well since you gave protoss so much cheaper of a dark shrine and oracles meaning they can go of 4 probes in 2 gases into both of those openings and get early expo every terran just has to get a turret. I always get a turret, so does Byun on his stream and so does Demuslim since against early protoss harrasment options its better to be safe than sorry.
To be honest I dont particualry understand the logic behind buffing oracle since a turret or a spore in enought to deny them. When i go for a banshee and zerg makes a spore I just deal with it that he expected it and prepared accordingly isnt it how this should work?
P.S. HotS is amazing in how it currently plays out, both MLG and Dreamhack had 130k views on stream when big matches were being played, after everything got nerfed to shizzle in WoL there was barely 30k viewers in the finals of any big tournament (provided it wasnt a ZvZ, then - 30-40% viewers)
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On May 05 2013 18:11 mishimaBeef wrote:
there was no tension... it was like yeah im gonna go in with hellions so what? now its like hmm should i go in with hellions?
This is so wrong. I really don't know where this Zerg myth come from. Sacrificing Hellions pre-Queen patch was a risk against correct defence because Zerg would have some Zerglings at the top of his ramp to trap them, after which you had no more map control and Zerg was free to build his third.
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On May 05 2013 21:34 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 18:11 mishimaBeef wrote:
there was no tension... it was like yeah im gonna go in with hellions so what? now its like hmm should i go in with hellions? This is so wrong. I really don't know where this Zerg myth come from. Sacrificing Hellions pre-Queen patch was a risk against correct defence because Zerg would have some Zerglings at the top of his ramp to trap them, after which you had no more map control and Zerg was free to build his third.
from the same place where "after queen patch you could drone to 70 without any risk" comes from. Forums 
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On May 05 2013 07:43 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 02:42 xuanzue wrote:On May 05 2013 01:13 shivver wrote:On May 05 2013 01:12 []Phase[] wrote:On May 05 2013 00:15 shivver wrote:
lolol the queen patch, if there ever was a time for kim and browder to stick their head in the dirty like an ostrich it would be that patch I think you are the ostrich here. I thought giving the zerg a ground to ground ranged unit was not a bad idea at all. Feels like you never played against all the different possible harassments a protoss and terran can throw at you. But to get back on topic : I am hoping for a report on some other units, and what they are proposing (units like SH, hellbat) if they still plan on changing them. I do understand that they only want to make small changes right now. Balance seems decent, considering the game just came out, and I agree with the careful handeling of the game (even tho I wouldnt be opposed to some bigger changes for the protoss race, but I doubt they will change big fundamental stuff). I can't believe you even want to debate the patch that basically began to kill sc2 from a terran viewers standpoint I'll just let this go, n/m forget it ftfy Sarcastic but not very clever. I play Protoss and my enjoyment of the TvZ matchup decreased markedly in 2012.
I also play Protoss and TvZ became an utter snoozefest with the queen buffs. It was the worst mistake Blizzard ever made with patching to go from a 50/50 match up to 40-60 ZvT with absolutely no reason for doing so and making the match up horribly boring at the same time.
I think the proposed Oracle buff is great. Right now Stargate is a huge gamble if you don't proxy it, seeing some actual real Stargate builds would be a nice change.
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On May 05 2013 20:25 Dvriel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 18:11 mishimaBeef wrote:
there was no tension... it was like yeah im gonna go in with hellions so what? now its like hmm should i go in with hellions? Maybe you are right,but in the early stages of the Reactor Hellion build there was NO wall in the Zergs natural and they are were saying "we are not T and cant build a wall".After few weeks they began building evo chambers with a spine and 1-2 queens to defend.No way hellions to runby!Now i was "hmm should I TRY to go in with hellions maybe losing one or two of them to spine+queen?" We lost the micro moment where hellions could kite queens and deny creep.Actually there is no way to deny the early 3rd of the Zerg.Hellion/banshee is death already,because queens+spore defend it all.
I am pretty sure Zerg had already started wall-ing before the queen patch.
the biggest problem with the hellions was the complete map domination and difficulty to scout ahead.
It can be a 2 port banshee follow up
mass blueflame hellion
hellion marauders
quick 3rd in base CC (before zerg even able to start it's own 3rd)
That's why zerg like DRG loves to go roach baneling all in, it just kills any greedy terran easily.
Getting an early roach warren is not too popular because it just further delays your 3rd and not able to defend a 2 base timing attack very well.
hellions and banshees are still used for their tactical purposes, not for run by or dealing game breaking damage, they are to gain map control, delay creep spread (pro still deny creep spread with hellions), force more lings, banshee shuts down roach counter pressure.
That's why hellions are still used in TvZ nowadays after reaper opening, better map control and trade efficiently after the zerg made lings to deal with hellions
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Like all of the changes except for the Oracle one.. It's too easy to just have 1 outside the enemy base and as soon as a fight occurs just a move it into the worker line already for it to wreck shit. Now it's gonna kill workers even faster... Thumbs down.
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On May 05 2013 21:02 Scoobers wrote:Thats because Terran is all about exploiting weaknesses in the early game and the more time you play against T the more you learn how to defend those and their timings. The more time passes on the better you responses are and the more you know. Lets take a reaper opening for example: when hots got realeased every zerg would lose 2-3 drones to a single reaper and IdrA almost smashed his monitor or punched DemusliM in his face since they used to sit right next to each other. How often do you see a zerg players lose a drone to the reaper nowadays? that almost doesnt happen at all. You guys remember how parting made him self look pathetic when he typed about the imba medevacs losing to Flash @ MLG? Havent we just seen him 2-0 flash in group B of code S? This game should be given time.
Well I hope zergs will find some answers, because right now you can pretty much always put a "18+ only" sign on Innovation TvZ :D.
The only part of the game I personally think should be given a look at is the late game where tempest seem to be killing everything with zergs not really having an option against a composition with them. Neither terrans do have one against that too since BC just get spanked by high templars and tempest. But as I said, it all should be given time. I would still wait with buffing/nerfing for 2-3 months.
Actually I'm zerg and I don't fear any lategame protoss composition. With SH, vipers and hydralisks you can handle pretty much anything protoss can throw at you.
As for burrow i could agree on it being 50/50 but @ lair tech, its far too good of an ubgrade and has too much all in potential @ hatch tech and all ins is not what community nor the viewers are interested in right?
The problem is that burrow is not that cheap, it's not always obvious how to use it well, and zerg is kinda gas starved at the beggining of the game (you often prefer +1 than burrow...). 50/50 at lair tech would be fine for me 
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On May 05 2013 22:11 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 07:43 marvellosity wrote:On May 05 2013 02:42 xuanzue wrote:On May 05 2013 01:13 shivver wrote:On May 05 2013 01:12 []Phase[] wrote:On May 05 2013 00:15 shivver wrote:
lolol the queen patch, if there ever was a time for kim and browder to stick their head in the dirty like an ostrich it would be that patch I think you are the ostrich here. I thought giving the zerg a ground to ground ranged unit was not a bad idea at all. Feels like you never played against all the different possible harassments a protoss and terran can throw at you. But to get back on topic : I am hoping for a report on some other units, and what they are proposing (units like SH, hellbat) if they still plan on changing them. I do understand that they only want to make small changes right now. Balance seems decent, considering the game just came out, and I agree with the careful handeling of the game (even tho I wouldnt be opposed to some bigger changes for the protoss race, but I doubt they will change big fundamental stuff). I can't believe you even want to debate the patch that basically began to kill sc2 from a terran viewers standpoint I'll just let this go, n/m forget it ftfy Sarcastic but not very clever. I play Protoss and my enjoyment of the TvZ matchup decreased markedly in 2012. I also play Protoss and TvZ became an utter snoozefest with the queen buffs. It was the worst mistake Blizzard ever made with patching to go from a 50/50 match up to 40-60 ZvT with absolutely no reason for doing so and making the match up horribly boring at the same time. I think the proposed Oracle buff is great. Right now Stargate is a huge gamble if you don't proxy it, seeing some actual real Stargate builds would be a nice change.
I don't see how a slight speed boost for the oracle makes stargate openers any less of a gamble.
The true problem is that the oracle and the phoenix overlap very hard and have no synergy.
To create less volatile stargate openers the oracle or the phoenix have to be changed to create some kind of harass synergy. One oracle and a few phoenix would be still very useful after the initial harass is stopped. Right now you have to build multiple oracles and do lots of damage, because more then maybe one oracle is useless later in the game.
The oracle is not a support caster right now. It seems to be the ugly result of a orgy between a mothership core, a sentry and a phoenix. :D
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On May 05 2013 22:09 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 21:34 TheDwf wrote:On May 05 2013 18:11 mishimaBeef wrote:
there was no tension... it was like yeah im gonna go in with hellions so what? now its like hmm should i go in with hellions? This is so wrong. I really don't know where this Zerg myth come from. Sacrificing Hellions pre-Queen patch was a risk against correct defence because Zerg would have some Zerglings at the top of his ramp to trap them, after which you had no more map control and Zerg was free to build his third. from the same place where "after queen patch you could drone to 70 without any risk" comes from. Forums
Wait, I thought if you built the 6th queen, you just got 70 drones. Is that not true?
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Has anyone actually played the test map and tested stuff like oracle openers against terran? Ground army vs mutas?
Seems like this thread is full of nothing but theorycrafting.
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On May 05 2013 23:28 submarine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 22:11 Figgy wrote:On May 05 2013 07:43 marvellosity wrote:On May 05 2013 02:42 xuanzue wrote:On May 05 2013 01:13 shivver wrote:On May 05 2013 01:12 []Phase[] wrote:On May 05 2013 00:15 shivver wrote:
lolol the queen patch, if there ever was a time for kim and browder to stick their head in the dirty like an ostrich it would be that patch I think you are the ostrich here. I thought giving the zerg a ground to ground ranged unit was not a bad idea at all. Feels like you never played against all the different possible harassments a protoss and terran can throw at you. But to get back on topic : I am hoping for a report on some other units, and what they are proposing (units like SH, hellbat) if they still plan on changing them. I do understand that they only want to make small changes right now. Balance seems decent, considering the game just came out, and I agree with the careful handeling of the game (even tho I wouldnt be opposed to some bigger changes for the protoss race, but I doubt they will change big fundamental stuff). I can't believe you even want to debate the patch that basically began to kill sc2 from a terran viewers standpoint I'll just let this go, n/m forget it ftfy Sarcastic but not very clever. I play Protoss and my enjoyment of the TvZ matchup decreased markedly in 2012. I also play Protoss and TvZ became an utter snoozefest with the queen buffs. It was the worst mistake Blizzard ever made with patching to go from a 50/50 match up to 40-60 ZvT with absolutely no reason for doing so and making the match up horribly boring at the same time. I think the proposed Oracle buff is great. Right now Stargate is a huge gamble if you don't proxy it, seeing some actual real Stargate builds would be a nice change. I don't see how a slight speed boost for the oracle makes stargate openers any less of a gamble. The true problem is that the oracle and the phoenix overlap very hard and have no synergy. To create less volatile stargate openers the oracle or the phoenix have to be changed to create some kind of harass synergy. One oracle and a few phoenix would be still very useful after the initial harass is stopped. Right now you have to build multiple oracles and do lots of damage, because more then maybe one oracle is useless later in the game. The oracle is not a support caster right now. It seems to be the ugly result of a orgy between a mothership core, a sentry and a phoenix. :D
Actually this patch is going to give a ton of synergy between the Phoenix and Oracle. It will make the oracle almost the same speed, which will allow easier control when flying together. Having a phoenix (real or hallucinated) fly in first to check for widow mines in the opponent's mineral line, will now be more closely followed by an oracle that can actually catch up to workers, punishing a terran for just leaving a single widow mine for defense.
And against zerg, you will now be able to use a single phoenix to lift up the queen and go to town with an oracle on the drones that can't just run away anymore, as long as they don't have some static defense set up already.
And now that the oracle is almost on par with phoenix speed, you can just use them for hallucinations to scout, rather than an obviously fake pheonix. This will scare the opponent into making static defense and keep them in their base while you are actually going down a completely different tech path.
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EPT
