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On May 04 2013 15:15 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 15:06 oGsTrueSmug wrote:On May 04 2013 13:38 SirPinky wrote:
Can the new Oracle speed move out of window mine range with the timing delay? If so I think this change is ridiculous. There is very little Terrans can do to avoid early harass; it already takes 5 marines to kill one Oracle. 6 marines. But now you can just avoid them.
Not if you want to kill workers.
6 marines = 300 minerals, built from barracks 150 (or reactored, 200/50), no prerequisits
1 oracle = 150 minerals, 150 gas, built from startgate 150/150, need gateway and cybernetics core to build.
I don't quite get the complaining about the oracle. Compare it to widow mine harass where a widow mine can take out 13 probes in one shot, it's way easier and more forgiving to defend. To defend against widow mines, you need lots of stalkers (with blink) or some stalkers and an observer.
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Iceland4053 Posts
On May 04 2013 05:50 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 05:40 Sissors wrote:On May 04 2013 05:37 testthewest wrote:On May 04 2013 05:30 Flonomenalz wrote:On May 04 2013 04:18 Malpractice.248 wrote:On May 04 2013 03:34 IdrA wrote:
he's always been full retard Not really. Hes slowly made the game more balanced than it ever was. Honestly, you just have issues with losing and often time blame balance rather than your play or choices. Z has been fine. Need slight buffs here and there, maybe, but theres no "glaring weakness" with any race atm. Anyone can win, if you play right. Id also say; rather than but a stupid, pointless comment out there, give evidence or shit to back it up to open discussion. Otherwise, dont say anything. Anyway, I think the oracle buff is nice. Youre really spending a lot to go stargate/oracle, and limiting the speed of your +2 upgrades. It should be rewarding. To say it cant be countered by ground units really isnt true. positioning and static defenses become key. I like the burrow change, would like to see a OL drop cost decrease, as well. Would also like to see a slight Widow nerf, and maybe 25 energy to afterburner... And maybe drop contaminate to 100 energy, or make Overseers a tad cheaper. AND MAKE OVERSEERS MAINTAIN SWEET SKIN OF OVERLORD TY IdrA has voiced his concerns plenty in the past. The OL speed buff and queen range buff back in WoL were fixes to TvZ that he had been arguing for monthsss before they were instilled (his debate with Day9 on SotG). Although his method of speech can be quite blunt (and occasionally inappropriate), it's pretty obvious that a lot of what he says turns out to be correct and has been implemented in one way or another. Moving on from that, I have no idea how you can agree with Blizzard's reasoning that the Oracle buff is nice. The reason it needs to be somewhat counterable by ground units is because of the difficulty of scouting in TvP. Unscouted oracles are already tough enough to deal with, they do not need to be any stronger. How can you say the queen buff was good for WoL? It was the end of any harass and we only saw that lame endgame composition with mass infestors, since you couldn't touch a good zerg anymore inearly game. About the oracle: Speed is needed, because if they can't flee from Mutalisks, oracles are kinda useless in PvZ. Furthermore: It's always good if terran is forced to build something else then just MMM, even if it is only a turret and a viking (that's basically all it needs - and the starport is needed anyway, while the stargate is a dead end vs terran). Why not be open and let the good players test it. Tbh believe me I like to build other things than MMM vs toss, however they are simply so easy to counter for toss. And yeah increased queen range was one of the more horrible balance ideas.
I have always thought increased queen range was one of the best balance changes Blizzard ever did in WoL. It fixed so many problems with the ZvT opening stages. So simple, so effective, that makes it elegant. Unfortunately, it also revealed the shitty state of the game in general... so there's that.I didn't buy HotS until about 2 weeks ago because of the way Blizzard attempts to balance the game, the thing that convinced me was watching streams and seeing that somehow, Blizzard seems to have lucked out, and their pile of shit they added on top of the pile of shit that was WoL somehow worked out to be well balanced, so I figured I'd finally get on the bus. I'm sad to see they continue down the road of stupid, hair-brained balance schemes. There are so many deep issues that, if resolved, would give SC2 that epic feel. But Blizzard doesn't want to rework the game from the ground up, so they put these stupidly broke mechanics in this untouchable pedestal and balance around them ARGH!!!! Oh well, here's to hoping the game stays relatively balanced because I don't think they'll ever address the core issues...
If there was a problem with attacks before 150 supply, yes the queen buff sure stopped that problem... I just don't know how anyone could think that buff was good, it was the worst balance fix I've ever seen in a MU that was pretty balanced already. The speedovies would've already fulfilled the scouting issue zergs were complaining about. Since T/P can't just make workers they could before trade their early units for drones(or force units instead of drones from the Z), which kept them in the game. After the buff you just had to go YOLO and be as greedy as possible hoping to reach similar worker count as the Z when he stops droning. NR15 is pretty damn boring.
Concerning idra, when Blizzard announced the +2 range buff of Queens, even he said "yeah that's pretty good", which should've raised a lot of alarm bells for sensible people.
I'm interested what can blizzard really do to balance ZvZ muta wars? It just seems to me if Zerg1 has higher muta count than Zerg2, and Zerg2 makes enough spores to defend against Zerg1, Zerg1 will just get more bases and be far ahead both due to the investment in static defenses aswell as the map control the higher muta flock brings.
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On May 04 2013 23:04 Zarahtra wrote:
I'm interested what can blizzard really do to balance ZvZ muta wars? It just seems to me if Zerg1 has higher muta count than Zerg2, and Zerg2 makes enough spores to defend against Zerg1, Zerg1 will just get more bases and be far ahead both due to the investment in static defenses aswell as the map control the higher muta flock brings.
That was already the situation in WoL ZvZ, where muta openings would be amongst the most popular builds and often just grant a faster third base. Point was however, that you could invest into other things instead of bases and get ahead in a different category (like upgrades, infestor and roach count) which the opponent would have to equalice himself, as "just massing mutas" eventually got bad.
I think that should be the goal: Put (mass) mutalisks on a clock where you have to transition into something else to win (in the longrun).
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On May 04 2013 22:53 blackbrrd wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 15:15 DooMDash wrote:On May 04 2013 15:06 oGsTrueSmug wrote:On May 04 2013 13:38 SirPinky wrote:
Can the new Oracle speed move out of window mine range with the timing delay? If so I think this change is ridiculous. There is very little Terrans can do to avoid early harass; it already takes 5 marines to kill one Oracle. 6 marines. But now you can just avoid them. Not if you want to kill workers. 6 marines = 300 minerals, built from barracks 150 (or reactored, 200/50), no prerequisits 1 oracle = 150 minerals, 150 gas, built from startgate 150/150, need gateway and cybernetics core to build. I don't quite get the complaining about the oracle. Compare it to widow mine harass where a widow mine can take out 13 probes in one shot, it's way easier and more forgiving to defend. To defend against widow mines, you need lots of stalkers (with blink) or some stalkers and an observer.
It's very, very rare that you'll get more than 6 combined probes with a widow mine (2x) drop. The power obviously increases the more you catch Protoss off guard, but that's the same for oracles.
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lolol the queen patch, if there ever was a time for kim and browder to stick their head in the dirty like an ostrich it would be that patch
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On May 04 2013 18:26 FirstGear wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 17:09 convention wrote:
I don't think we should add hp and shields to the oracle. The idea behind the unit is something that has high potential but is very hard to use (kind of like phoenixes). And so I think it should be kept with low hp to punish people when they are a little too cavalier with the unit, but it should have high enough speed that people who have the ultimate minimap awareness (Rain, Parting, Creator come to mind) are able to never lose a single oracle. Currently it won't matter, it just isn't fast enough to escape a lot of situations. The minor speed buff will allow it get away from all units (I think?) if you react very quickly, but it will still die really fast if you react too slowly. Its already as fast or faster than every terran unit except a boosted medivac.
At its current speed, actually not. The oracle with its current 3.375 speed is equal in speed to stimmed marines and marauders; reapers, hellions, and medivacs with afterburners are faster than it. Increasing the speed to 4 makes it faster than everything Terran except the hellions and boosted medivacs.
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On May 05 2013 00:15 shivver wrote:
lolol the queen patch, if there ever was a time for kim and browder to stick their head in the dirty like an ostrich it would be that patch
I think you are the ostrich here. I thought giving the zerg a ground to ground ranged unit was not a bad idea at all. Feels like you never played against all the different possible harassments a protoss and terran can throw at you.
But to get back on topic : I am hoping for a report on some other units, and what they are proposing (units like SH, hellbat) if they still plan on changing them. I do understand that they only want to make small changes right now. Balance seems decent, considering the game just came out, and I agree with the careful handeling of the game (even tho I wouldnt be opposed to some bigger changes for the protoss race, but I doubt they will change big fundamental stuff).
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On May 05 2013 01:12 []Phase[] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 00:15 shivver wrote:
lolol the queen patch, if there ever was a time for kim and browder to stick their head in the dirty like an ostrich it would be that patch I think you are the ostrich here. I thought giving the zerg a ground to ground ranged unit was not a bad idea at all. Feels like you never played against all the different possible harassments a protoss and terran can throw at you. But to get back on topic : I am hoping for a report on some other units, and what they are proposing (units like SH, hellbat) if they still plan on changing them. I do understand that they only want to make small changes right now. Balance seems decent, considering the game just came out, and I agree with the careful handeling of the game (even tho I wouldnt be opposed to some bigger changes for the protoss race, but I doubt they will change big fundamental stuff).
I can't believe you even want to debate the patch that basically began to kill sc2 from a viewers standpoint
I'll just let this go, n/m forget it
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On May 05 2013 01:12 []Phase[] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 00:15 shivver wrote:
lolol the queen patch, if there ever was a time for kim and browder to stick their head in the dirty like an ostrich it would be that patch I think you are the ostrich here. I thought giving the zerg a ground to ground ranged unit was not a bad idea at all. Feels like you never played against all the different possible harassments a protoss and terran can throw at you. But to get back on topic : I am hoping for a report on some other units, and what they are proposing (units like SH, hellbat) if they still plan on changing them. I do understand that they only want to make small changes right now. Balance seems decent, considering the game just came out, and I agree with the careful handeling of the game (even tho I wouldnt be opposed to some bigger changes for the protoss race, but I doubt they will change big fundamental stuff).
No, he is right. That was probably the worst time in history of Sc2 TvZ. Blizzard turned an exciting matchup into an imbalanced lullaby. Expansion is what saved Sc2 from dying. And I am afraid they will do the same thing all over again
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On May 05 2013 01:13 shivver wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 01:12 []Phase[] wrote:On May 05 2013 00:15 shivver wrote:
lolol the queen patch, if there ever was a time for kim and browder to stick their head in the dirty like an ostrich it would be that patch I think you are the ostrich here. I thought giving the zerg a ground to ground ranged unit was not a bad idea at all. Feels like you never played against all the different possible harassments a protoss and terran can throw at you. But to get back on topic : I am hoping for a report on some other units, and what they are proposing (units like SH, hellbat) if they still plan on changing them. I do understand that they only want to make small changes right now. Balance seems decent, considering the game just came out, and I agree with the careful handeling of the game (even tho I wouldnt be opposed to some bigger changes for the protoss race, but I doubt they will change big fundamental stuff). I can't believe you even want to debate the patch that basically began to kill sc2 from a terran viewers standpoint I'll just let this go, n/m forget it
ftfy
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The Queen patch was necessary, because hellions. Sorry, it's true.
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On May 04 2013 10:12 Mortal wrote:
That burrow change is really the only gripe of mine. I think the oracle change will only affect really high-level play if that, and the spore change is completely necessary. Muta battles are total bullshit to watch and play.
I'm interested to see what will come out of it. But also annoyed, as the last 5 TvZs I've had the zerg went for some weird 2 base ling/roach burrow pressure
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On May 05 2013 00:31 mongoose22 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 18:26 FirstGear wrote:On May 04 2013 17:09 convention wrote:
I don't think we should add hp and shields to the oracle. The idea behind the unit is something that has high potential but is very hard to use (kind of like phoenixes). And so I think it should be kept with low hp to punish people when they are a little too cavalier with the unit, but it should have high enough speed that people who have the ultimate minimap awareness (Rain, Parting, Creator come to mind) are able to never lose a single oracle. Currently it won't matter, it just isn't fast enough to escape a lot of situations. The minor speed buff will allow it get away from all units (I think?) if you react very quickly, but it will still die really fast if you react too slowly. Its already as fast or faster than every terran unit except a boosted medivac. At its current speed, actually not. The oracle with its current 3.375 speed is equal in speed to stimmed marines and marauders; reapers, hellions, and medivacs with afterburners are faster than it. Increasing the speed to 4 makes it faster than everything Terran except the hellions and boosted medivacs.
My bad, I was thinking of units that can damage/threaten the oracle.
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Oracle should be faster but not kill light units in a microsecond.
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On May 05 2013 02:49 Leporello wrote:
The Queen patch was necessary, because hellions. Sorry, it's true. Yes, it was necessary for balancing the game. Although this and combination with metagame of turtling into broodlords didn't produce the best viewing experience. But it was pretty decent again after few months.
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On May 05 2013 02:49 Leporello wrote:
The Queen patch was necessary, because hellions. Sorry, it's true.
A) Top zergs were already figuring out how to break hellion contain with minimal cost.
B) Wall-in with queen + evo etc. is still used after queen buff, and would be as good for preventing run-by without range buff.
But hey, I guess the queen patch was necessary to hold off hellions without spending larvae on a single unit that counters hellions.
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On May 05 2013 04:15 Tuczniak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 02:49 Leporello wrote:
The Queen patch was necessary, because hellions. Sorry, it's true. Yes, it was necessary for balancing the game. Although this and combination with metagame of turtling into broodlords didn't produce the best viewing experience. But it was pretty decent again after few months.
I think you'll find that this opinion is not shared by many people in the community. But I absolutely refuse to discuss balance of a time period X to Y in the past if it's clear it has not implications on the current state of affairs.
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I like the idea of buffing oracle acceleration, not sure how I feel about oracle speed though.
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On May 05 2013 04:15 Tuczniak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 02:49 Leporello wrote:
The Queen patch was necessary, because hellions. Sorry, it's true. Yes, it was necessary for balancing the game. Although this and combination with metagame of turtling into broodlords didn't produce the best viewing experience. But it was pretty decent again after few months.
The queen patch produced the most unbalanced state of the game (more unbalaned than terran in the beta, with a >60% win rate for zerg). Furthermore, it produced the worst viewing experience of SC2 (I took a hiatus from SC2 because of how horrible it was to watch infestor/BL turtling from zerg). I only started watching again because of the expansion (and I know I'm not alone here). Viewer numbers dropped like crazy in the final rounds of tournaments when it was zvzvzvz over and over and over again. With the EGMC, you would see view counts cut in half when a zerg would be playing someone. No one wanted to watch it, no one. It didn't ruin viewing experience for terran and protoss, it ruined it for anyone that ever wanted to watch a decent game. I didn't even feel like watching the zerg players I liked anymore, because the game was going to not be worth watching.
Back on topic of what this thread is about though. Has anyone been able to use the early burrow to effectively delay thirds? Does that seem like a reasonable build? How about get some ZvZs in with the spores, has anyone been able to defend with them?
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On May 05 2013 02:42 xuanzue wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2013 01:13 shivver wrote:On May 05 2013 01:12 []Phase[] wrote:On May 05 2013 00:15 shivver wrote:
lolol the queen patch, if there ever was a time for kim and browder to stick their head in the dirty like an ostrich it would be that patch I think you are the ostrich here. I thought giving the zerg a ground to ground ranged unit was not a bad idea at all. Feels like you never played against all the different possible harassments a protoss and terran can throw at you. But to get back on topic : I am hoping for a report on some other units, and what they are proposing (units like SH, hellbat) if they still plan on changing them. I do understand that they only want to make small changes right now. Balance seems decent, considering the game just came out, and I agree with the careful handeling of the game (even tho I wouldnt be opposed to some bigger changes for the protoss race, but I doubt they will change big fundamental stuff). I can't believe you even want to debate the patch that basically began to kill sc2 from a terran viewers standpoint I'll just let this go, n/m forget it ftfy
Sarcastic but not very clever. I play Protoss and my enjoyment of the TvZ matchup decreased markedly in 2012.
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