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Call to Action: May 2 Balance Testing - Page 26

Forum Index > SC2 General
640 CommentsPost a Reply
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TheFish7
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States2824 Posts
May 03 2013 20:40 GMT
#501
They're trying to force this game to become a spectator sport and they're gonna ruin it.

And yea Derelict was an awesome maps for 2v2's. Pistol IMBA.
~ ~ <°)))><~ ~ ~
Jermstuddog
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States2231 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-03 20:51:31
May 03 2013 20:50 GMT
#502
On May 04 2013 05:40 Sissors wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2013 05:37 testthewest wrote:
On May 04 2013 05:30 Flonomenalz wrote:
On May 04 2013 04:18 Malpractice.248 wrote:
On May 04 2013 03:34 IdrA wrote:
he's always been full retard

Not really. Hes slowly made the game more balanced than it ever was.
Honestly, you just have issues with losing and often time blame balance rather than your play or choices.

Z has been fine. Need slight buffs here and there, maybe, but theres no "glaring weakness" with any race atm. Anyone can win, if you play right.

Id also say; rather than but a stupid, pointless comment out there, give evidence or shit to back it up to open discussion. Otherwise, dont say anything.


Anyway, I think the oracle buff is nice. Youre really spending a lot to go stargate/oracle, and limiting the speed of your +2 upgrades. It should be rewarding. To say it cant be countered by ground units really isnt true. positioning and static defenses become key.
I like the burrow change, would like to see a OL drop cost decrease, as well.
Would also like to see a slight Widow nerf, and maybe 25 energy to afterburner... And maybe drop contaminate to 100 energy, or make Overseers a tad cheaper.

AND MAKE OVERSEERS MAINTAIN SWEET SKIN OF OVERLORD TY

IdrA has voiced his concerns plenty in the past. The OL speed buff and queen range buff back in WoL were fixes to TvZ that he had been arguing for monthsss before they were instilled (his debate with Day9 on SotG). Although his method of speech can be quite blunt (and occasionally inappropriate), it's pretty obvious that a lot of what he says turns out to be correct and has been implemented in one way or another.

Moving on from that, I have no idea how you can agree with Blizzard's reasoning that the Oracle buff is nice. The reason it needs to be somewhat counterable by ground units is because of the difficulty of scouting in TvP. Unscouted oracles are already tough enough to deal with, they do not need to be any stronger.


How can you say the queen buff was good for WoL? It was the end of any harass and we only saw that lame endgame composition with mass infestors, since you couldn't touch a good zerg anymore inearly game.
About the oracle: Speed is needed, because if they can't flee from Mutalisks, oracles are kinda useless in PvZ.
Furthermore: It's always good if terran is forced to build something else then just MMM, even if it is only a turret and a viking (that's basically all it needs - and the starport is needed anyway, while the stargate is a dead end vs terran).

Why not be open and let the good players test it.



Tbh believe me I like to build other things than MMM vs toss, however they are simply so easy to counter for toss.

And yeah increased queen range was one of the more horrible balance ideas.


I have always thought increased queen range was one of the best balance changes Blizzard ever did in WoL. It fixed so many problems with the ZvT opening stages. So simple, so effective, that makes it elegant. Unfortunately, it also revealed the shitty state of the game in general... so there's that.

I didn't buy HotS until about 2 weeks ago because of the way Blizzard attempts to balance the game, the thing that convinced me was watching streams and seeing that somehow, Blizzard seems to have lucked out, and their pile of shit they added on top of the pile of shit that was WoL somehow worked out to be well balanced, so I figured I'd finally get on the bus.

I'm sad to see they continue down the road of stupid, hair-brained balance schemes. There are so many deep issues that, if resolved, would give SC2 that epic feel. But Blizzard doesn't want to rework the game from the ground up, so they put these stupidly broke mechanics in this untouchable pedestal and balance around them ARGH!!!!

Oh well, here's to hoping the game stays relatively balanced because I don't think they'll ever address the core issues...
As it turns out, marines don't actually cost any money -Jinro
mishimaBeef
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2259 Posts
May 03 2013 21:10 GMT
#503
On May 04 2013 05:50 Jermstuddog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2013 05:40 Sissors wrote:
On May 04 2013 05:37 testthewest wrote:
On May 04 2013 05:30 Flonomenalz wrote:
On May 04 2013 04:18 Malpractice.248 wrote:
On May 04 2013 03:34 IdrA wrote:
he's always been full retard

Not really. Hes slowly made the game more balanced than it ever was.
Honestly, you just have issues with losing and often time blame balance rather than your play or choices.

Z has been fine. Need slight buffs here and there, maybe, but theres no "glaring weakness" with any race atm. Anyone can win, if you play right.

Id also say; rather than but a stupid, pointless comment out there, give evidence or shit to back it up to open discussion. Otherwise, dont say anything.


Anyway, I think the oracle buff is nice. Youre really spending a lot to go stargate/oracle, and limiting the speed of your +2 upgrades. It should be rewarding. To say it cant be countered by ground units really isnt true. positioning and static defenses become key.
I like the burrow change, would like to see a OL drop cost decrease, as well.
Would also like to see a slight Widow nerf, and maybe 25 energy to afterburner... And maybe drop contaminate to 100 energy, or make Overseers a tad cheaper.

AND MAKE OVERSEERS MAINTAIN SWEET SKIN OF OVERLORD TY

IdrA has voiced his concerns plenty in the past. The OL speed buff and queen range buff back in WoL were fixes to TvZ that he had been arguing for monthsss before they were instilled (his debate with Day9 on SotG). Although his method of speech can be quite blunt (and occasionally inappropriate), it's pretty obvious that a lot of what he says turns out to be correct and has been implemented in one way or another.

Moving on from that, I have no idea how you can agree with Blizzard's reasoning that the Oracle buff is nice. The reason it needs to be somewhat counterable by ground units is because of the difficulty of scouting in TvP. Unscouted oracles are already tough enough to deal with, they do not need to be any stronger.


How can you say the queen buff was good for WoL? It was the end of any harass and we only saw that lame endgame composition with mass infestors, since you couldn't touch a good zerg anymore inearly game.
About the oracle: Speed is needed, because if they can't flee from Mutalisks, oracles are kinda useless in PvZ.
Furthermore: It's always good if terran is forced to build something else then just MMM, even if it is only a turret and a viking (that's basically all it needs - and the starport is needed anyway, while the stargate is a dead end vs terran).

Why not be open and let the good players test it.



Tbh believe me I like to build other things than MMM vs toss, however they are simply so easy to counter for toss.

And yeah increased queen range was one of the more horrible balance ideas.


I have always thought increased queen range was one of the best balance changes Blizzard ever did in WoL. It fixed so many problems with the ZvT opening stages. So simple, so effective, that makes it elegant. Unfortunately, it also revealed the shitty state of the game in general... so there's that.

I didn't buy HotS until about 2 weeks ago because of the way Blizzard attempts to balance the game, the thing that convinced me was watching streams and seeing that somehow, Blizzard seems to have lucked out, and their pile of shit they added on top of the pile of shit that was WoL somehow worked out to be well balanced, so I figured I'd finally get on the bus.

I'm sad to see they continue down the road of stupid, hair-brained balance schemes. There are so many deep issues that, if resolved, would give SC2 that epic feel. But Blizzard doesn't want to rework the game from the ground up, so they put these stupidly broke mechanics in this untouchable pedestal and balance around them ARGH!!!!

Oh well, here's to hoping the game stays relatively balanced because I don't think they'll ever address the core issues...


Rework the game from the ground up? lol
Dare to live the life you have dreamed for yourself. Go forward and make your dreams come true. - Ralph Waldo Emerson
Sapphire.lux
Profile Joined July 2010
Romania2620 Posts
May 03 2013 22:07 GMT
#504
On May 04 2013 05:32 Flonomenalz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2013 05:06 gamerdude12345 wrote:
so was BW a fluke or did they just know how to make a good strategy game back in 1998?

A fluke. Quite similar to how Halo CE/2 were flukes, and turned out to be the best Halo games competitively though community found glitches. Then Bungie pulled a Blizzard and went full retard with Halo 3/Reach, and 343 went pretty full retard with Halo 4 as well.


It wasn't a fluke and neither was Halo. There are many examples like this (BW, Halo, Diablo2, Morrowind.....) Back then companies tried to do the best games they could in the specific genre. Nowdays, everyone tries to appeal to a broad market, and so compromises arise left and right. Generally games tend to improve tech wise, and loose in depth.
Head Coach Park: "They should buff tanks!"
convention
Profile Joined October 2011
United States622 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-03 22:15:06
May 03 2013 22:14 GMT
#505
So how have the games played out for everyone on the test map so far? I haven't ran into any ZvZs yet so I don't know much about the spore buff. With the burrow upgrade, I do find myself grabbing it a little bit earlier, but it doesn't feel that different since I usually got it anyway. It kind of reminds me of the protoss upgrades that had a tiny cost decrease. The only real difference I am finding is I just have an extra 50/50 in the midgame, which at that point isn't much anyway. So my personal feeling is that the burrow upgrade is probably going to mainly useful for either early game defense or early game all-ins, neither of which I would get burrow for so I'm not exactly the best test of that buff either.

The oracle feels the same as far as control (so the acceleration buff matches the speed buff). I do notice the speed increase, but it definitely isn't that much. When the Overlord speed was buffed, that was very noticeable right away. This more feels like these units are a little bit faster, but that's because I use them quite a bit. I wouldn't be surprised if most people don't even notice the speed change.

Hopefully we can redirect the discussion from "protoss will be broken with this buff" to "I've seen the upgrade in action, and..."
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
May 03 2013 22:19 GMT
#506
On May 04 2013 07:07 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2013 05:32 Flonomenalz wrote:
On May 04 2013 05:06 gamerdude12345 wrote:
so was BW a fluke or did they just know how to make a good strategy game back in 1998?

A fluke. Quite similar to how Halo CE/2 were flukes, and turned out to be the best Halo games competitively though community found glitches. Then Bungie pulled a Blizzard and went full retard with Halo 3/Reach, and 343 went pretty full retard with Halo 4 as well.


It wasn't a fluke and neither was Halo. There are many examples like this (BW, Halo, Diablo2, Morrowind.....) Back then companies tried to do the best games they could in the specific genre. Nowdays, everyone tries to appeal to a broad market, and so compromises arise left and right. Generally games tend to improve tech wise, and loose in depth.

LOL yeah, they definitely foresaw things like muta stacking and balanced the game around it.

BW balance was part luck, part KR scene balancing it through maps and part an impossibly high skill ceiling.

Really, you don't even need a truly balanced game as long as you make playing it perfectly impossibly difficult.
llIH
Profile Joined June 2011
Norway2143 Posts
May 03 2013 22:23 GMT
#507
Burrow will change the meta for sure
Sapphire.lux
Profile Joined July 2010
Romania2620 Posts
May 03 2013 22:52 GMT
#508
On May 04 2013 07:19 Bagi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2013 07:07 Sapphire.lux wrote:
On May 04 2013 05:32 Flonomenalz wrote:
On May 04 2013 05:06 gamerdude12345 wrote:
so was BW a fluke or did they just know how to make a good strategy game back in 1998?

A fluke. Quite similar to how Halo CE/2 were flukes, and turned out to be the best Halo games competitively though community found glitches. Then Bungie pulled a Blizzard and went full retard with Halo 3/Reach, and 343 went pretty full retard with Halo 4 as well.


It wasn't a fluke and neither was Halo. There are many examples like this (BW, Halo, Diablo2, Morrowind.....) Back then companies tried to do the best games they could in the specific genre. Nowdays, everyone tries to appeal to a broad market, and so compromises arise left and right. Generally games tend to improve tech wise, and loose in depth.



Really, you don't even need a truly balanced game as long as you make playing it perfectly impossibly difficult.

This is what "real" sports are all about, so maybe BW was on to something.
Head Coach Park: "They should buff tanks!"
Sambobly
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia241 Posts
May 03 2013 23:14 GMT
#509

IdrA has voiced his concerns plenty in the past. The OL speed buff and queen range buff back in WoL were fixes to TvZ that he had been arguing for monthsss before they were instilled (his debate with Day9 on SotG). Although his method of speech can be quite blunt (and occasionally inappropriate), it's pretty obvious that a lot of what he says turns out to be correct and has been implemented in one way or another.
Moving on from that, I have no idea how you can agree with Blizzard's reasoning that the Oracle buff is nice. The reason it needs to be somewhat counterable by ground units is because of the difficulty of scouting in TvP. Unscouted oracles are already tough enough to deal with, they do not need to be any stronger.


The overlord buff and queen buff destroyed WOL competitiveness and fun for the rest of its lifespan. If those are your go to examples than there is a good reason not to listen to Idra ever again.
govie
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
9334 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-03 23:43:16
May 03 2013 23:36 GMT
#510
Spore buff : Fine!
Oracle speed : Fine!
Burrow cost : Fine!

But when does terran and zerg get something against tempest/templar combo? (BC need buffz, else there not worth the cost)
The two NBA teams in states with legal weed are called the Nuggets and the Blazers...
althaz
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia1001 Posts
May 03 2013 23:47 GMT
#511
I like the spore buff, but I'm think there's a fine line between mutas being OP as shit and mutas being useless in ZvZ, hopefully this change will help strike this balance.

I LOVE the oracle buff. Right now the oracle is virtually worthless, beyond surprise early harass. The speed change should make it possible to use it for multi-pronged attacks/harass (right now it's too easy to catch and kill). It should also extend the utility of the Oracle to later in the game (right now the oracle is basically worthless past 8 minutes).

I'm not too sure about the burrow change, but let's see how it goes!
The first rule we don't talk about race conditions. of race conditions is
Dvriel
Profile Joined November 2011
607 Posts
May 03 2013 23:55 GMT
#512
I dont know whats going on in the other Servers,but actually in EU there is no way to test the map. It is there,but no one is testing it REALLY!!! I am there and wait like 15 mins to anybody show up and nothing... The actual state of "Custom Game" is just stupid.Come on,you cant even "quit"!!! If you enter and there is a player with the wrong race, you just CANT GO OUT or stop the countdown.How are they expecting people to test anything? I think there must be various maps open with some kind of description like: "ZvZ only" or "TvP only" and before enter the lobby you could be able to see who is there: T,Z or P.So you know if you wanna enter.If this is not possible,at least make possible to quit the lobby not being forced to log out every time...
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5217 Posts
May 03 2013 23:57 GMT
#513
On May 04 2013 07:19 Bagi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2013 07:07 Sapphire.lux wrote:
On May 04 2013 05:32 Flonomenalz wrote:
On May 04 2013 05:06 gamerdude12345 wrote:
so was BW a fluke or did they just know how to make a good strategy game back in 1998?

A fluke. Quite similar to how Halo CE/2 were flukes, and turned out to be the best Halo games competitively though community found glitches. Then Bungie pulled a Blizzard and went full retard with Halo 3/Reach, and 343 went pretty full retard with Halo 4 as well.


It wasn't a fluke and neither was Halo. There are many examples like this (BW, Halo, Diablo2, Morrowind.....) Back then companies tried to do the best games they could in the specific genre. Nowdays, everyone tries to appeal to a broad market, and so compromises arise left and right. Generally games tend to improve tech wise, and loose in depth.


BW balance was part luck, part KR scene balancing it through maps and part an impossibly high skill ceiling.

Really, you don't even need a truly balanced game as long as you make playing it perfectly impossibly difficult.


And this is why I think Blizzard blew it with the Nexus Cannon. Did Protoss need some help early game? Sure... but why did it have to be in the form a skilless ability? At least Forcefields take some some skill.
Leporello
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2845 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-05-04 00:22:54
May 03 2013 23:58 GMT
#514
I'm not at all sure how anti-air in ZvZ is a "problem", but it's supposedly fine in other match-ups. The spore buff will make muta harass non-existant. And without harass, well, I guess we're just not supposed to build mutas anymore in ZvZ.

I don't mind that personally, it's never been my style, but I'm not sure how it's making things balanced. If a Zerg is behind in mutas, they can already build spores and queens and put up good defense. This change just seems an unnecessary way to force players into NOT using a certain unit in a certain match-up.

And while Zerg is struggling against mass-muta, what makes them think the other match-ups' air-units are any less overwhelming or demanding against Zerg? Airtoss, with just a couple of Colossi added, is probably the most impossible deathball for Zerg to deal with, of any race, because Corrupters suck against VoidRays, and the Colossi melt the Hydras, leaving Zerg with very little options at all, if any.

In fact, we see all the time Zerg building mutas against an Airtoss with phoenix even though they shouldn't, because the other options are so underwhelming and so easily hard-countered that the Zerg feels mass-muta is the only real anti-Airtoss. Mid-game phoenix harass is every bit as annoying as mid-game muta harass, only phoenix has the added benefit of forcing Zerg into making units that the Protoss can then hard-counter.

Right there, maybe, exists a real balance problem, and I know I'm not alone in feeling that.

This spore-muta thing isn't a balance problem. I'm not even sure it's something that's going to last in the pro-meta anyways. But rather than let players deal with this strategy in creative ways, Blizz is just giving Zerg a big anti-muta buff to try to force their hand.
Big water
convention
Profile Joined October 2011
United States622 Posts
May 04 2013 01:02 GMT
#515
On May 04 2013 08:58 Leporello wrote:
I'm not at all sure how anti-air in ZvZ is a "problem", but it's supposedly fine in other match-ups. The spore buff will make muta harass non-existant. And without harass, well, I guess we're just not supposed to build mutas anymore in ZvZ.

I don't mind that personally, it's never been my style, but I'm not sure how it's making things balanced. If a Zerg is behind in mutas, they can already build spores and queens and put up good defense. This change just seems an unnecessary way to force players into NOT using a certain unit in a certain match-up.

And while Zerg is struggling against mass-muta, what makes them think the other match-ups' air-units are any less overwhelming or demanding against Zerg? Airtoss, with just a couple of Colossi added, is probably the most impossible deathball for Zerg to deal with, of any race, because Corrupters suck against VoidRays, and the Colossi melt the Hydras, leaving Zerg with very little options at all, if any.

In fact, we see all the time Zerg building mutas against an Airtoss with phoenix even though they shouldn't, because the other options are so underwhelming and so easily hard-countered that the Zerg feels mass-muta is the only real anti-Airtoss. Mid-game phoenix harass is every bit as annoying as mid-game muta harass, only phoenix has the added benefit of forcing Zerg into making units that the Protoss can then hard-counter.

Right there, maybe, exists a real balance problem, and I know I'm not alone in feeling that.

This spore-muta thing isn't a balance problem. I'm not even sure it's something that's going to last in the pro-meta anyways. But rather than let players deal with this strategy in creative ways, Blizz is just giving Zerg a big anti-muta buff to try to force their hand.

Airtoss with collosi actually gets destroyed by hydra/viper. The scary protoss army is high templar/skytoss/archon, which is unbelievably gas intensive. So far in competitive play, I haven't seen many dominating skytoss compositions, it's just so hard to get there. Life, for example, has ripped everyone apart that has gone for such a build with ling runbys and early hydra/viper attacks. Maybe in the future protoss will figure out an easy way to make such a composition work, but for now it isn't an issue.
Mortal
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
2943 Posts
May 04 2013 01:12 GMT
#516
That burrow change is really the only gripe of mine. I think the oracle change will only affect really high-level play if that, and the spore change is completely necessary. Muta battles are total bullshit to watch and play.
The universe created an audience for itself.
TheSwamp
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1497 Posts
May 04 2013 01:24 GMT
#517
On May 03 2013 08:24 convention wrote:
Why does the oracle change receive so much negative feedback? I don't recall seeing any oracles in the GSL yet, I rarely see them in other tournaments. The speed buff does not help with all-ins (who cares if you saved your two oracles when you have no army and are down 15 workers). It is an incredibly micro-intensive unit. Don't we want those units to be viable?


Why blame yourself for a loss when you can blame a unit?

I don't think the spore buff will really change much. It is possible to transition out of Muta/Ling. I hope they just give players time to figure out how to get out of this unit composition earlier, or come up with a decent strategy that can hold its own against Mutas.

The burrow change doesn't really make any sense to me, but hopefully it really will encourage new and exciting play.

I like the oracle change. As stated in their justification, one turret/spore,cannon completely nullifies an oracle.

Overall, I think they are all decent changes. However, I wish they would do something with widow mines. They just feel too easy to use at this point.
MLG: How is your Protoss? Idra: I make Blink Stalkers, so really, really good.
Wingblade
Profile Joined April 2012
United States1806 Posts
May 04 2013 02:43 GMT
#518
I feel like this speed buff, coupled with a range increase and a significant damage decrease will make the unit more exciting and more microable than just the speed increase.
PartinG fanboy to the max, Rain/Squirtle/Dear/Scarlett/Bbyong are cool too. I don't always watch Dota2 but when I do I have no clue what's going on. GOGO POWER RANGERS
SirPinky
Profile Joined February 2011
United States525 Posts
May 04 2013 04:38 GMT
#519
Can the new Oracle speed move out of window mine range with the timing delay? If so I think this change is ridiculous. There is very little Terrans can do to avoid early harass; it already takes 5 marines to kill one Oracle.
How much better to get wisdom than gold; to get insight rather than silver!
eviltomahawk
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States11135 Posts
May 04 2013 04:42 GMT
#520
On May 04 2013 08:14 Sambobly wrote:
Show nested quote +

IdrA has voiced his concerns plenty in the past. The OL speed buff and queen range buff back in WoL were fixes to TvZ that he had been arguing for monthsss before they were instilled (his debate with Day9 on SotG). Although his method of speech can be quite blunt (and occasionally inappropriate), it's pretty obvious that a lot of what he says turns out to be correct and has been implemented in one way or another.
Moving on from that, I have no idea how you can agree with Blizzard's reasoning that the Oracle buff is nice. The reason it needs to be somewhat counterable by ground units is because of the difficulty of scouting in TvP. Unscouted oracles are already tough enough to deal with, they do not need to be any stronger.


The overlord buff and queen buff destroyed WOL competitiveness and fun for the rest of its lifespan. If those are your go to examples than there is a good reason not to listen to Idra ever again.

I'd say the Queen buff had a much bigger impact than the Overlord buff. The Overlord buff seemed much tamer and more reasonable in comparison.
ㅇㅅㅌㅅ
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