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United Kingdom12025 Posts
On April 29 2013 04:21 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 04:08 Shiori wrote:On April 29 2013 04:07 MidnightZL wrote:On April 28 2013 03:02 washikie wrote:
Why did they not remove star station? Maybe because ppl like it and it's a great map? What exactly is great about it? Scouting lottery on ladder, close spawns and a three screens wide concave at the third—what's not to love in there?
There's nothing wrong with having to double scout. Close spawns are not that much of an issue anymore and on that map especially close spawns make little difference due to the relatively long rush distance. The only thing I'll give you is a big concave at the third, but with decent positioning it shouldn't be an issue and it favours both sides as both have relatively vunerable thirds.
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United States1699 Posts
On April 29 2013 04:53 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 04:21 TheDwf wrote:On April 29 2013 04:08 Shiori wrote:On April 29 2013 04:07 MidnightZL wrote:On April 28 2013 03:02 washikie wrote:
Why did they not remove star station? Maybe because ppl like it and it's a great map? What exactly is great about it? Scouting lottery on ladder, close spawns and a three screens wide concave at the third—what's not to love in there? There's nothing wrong with having to double scout. Close spawns are not that much of an issue anymore and on that map especially close spawns make little difference due to the relatively long rush distance. The only thing I'll give you is a big concave at the third, but with decent positioning it shouldn't be an issue and it favours both sides as both have relatively vunerable thirds.
It plays pretty well despite breaking about all the map making rules it could with it's simple layout. TBH maps are at a weird spot in hots right now, and I'm starting to think we need to take a step back and let go of some of the WoL mentalities. Map balance is more different in HotS than we expected I think.
Star Station is 15-11 PvT on TLPD despite huge air space for drops and a massively open third.
We had all these rules in place for Protoss to be able to expand but now... The maps that are bending those rules are the ones which are P favored.
Then again, TDA with rocks at the third favored Z towards the end of it's life so maybe we didn't know what we were talking about then, either.
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Then again, TDA with rocks at the third favored Z towards the end of it's life so maybe we didn't know what we were talking about then, either.
You mean without rocks don't you ?
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United States1699 Posts
On April 29 2013 05:31 Dools1337 wrote:Show nested quote +
Then again, TDA with rocks at the third favored Z towards the end of it's life so maybe we didn't know what we were talking about then, either.
You mean without rocks don't you ?
No. The months before the rocks were removed, it was Z favored ZvP.
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On April 29 2013 05:31 Dools1337 wrote:Show nested quote +
Then again, TDA with rocks at the third favored Z towards the end of it's life so maybe we didn't know what we were talking about then, either.
You mean without rocks don't you ?
On ladder I thought that map had rocks until it was removed? I may be remembering wrong though.
EDIT: My bad guess they did get removed.
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On April 29 2013 04:53 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 04:21 TheDwf wrote:On April 29 2013 04:08 Shiori wrote:On April 29 2013 04:07 MidnightZL wrote:On April 28 2013 03:02 washikie wrote:
Why did they not remove star station? Maybe because ppl like it and it's a great map? What exactly is great about it? Scouting lottery on ladder, close spawns and a three screens wide concave at the third—what's not to love in there? There's nothing wrong with having to double scout. Close spawns are not that much of an issue anymore and on that map especially close spawns make little difference due to the relatively long rush distance. The only thing I'll give you is a big concave at the third, but with decent positioning it shouldn't be an issue and it favours both sides as both have relatively vunerable thirds.
No one double scouts at high level, and open thirds are not equal for both sides because not all races/compositions have equal opportunities to exploit them.
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United States1699 Posts
On April 29 2013 05:55 FCReverie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 05:31 Dools1337 wrote:
Then again, TDA with rocks at the third favored Z towards the end of it's life so maybe we didn't know what we were talking about then, either.
You mean without rocks don't you ? On ladder I thought that map had rocks until it was removed? I may be remembering wrong though. EDIT: My bad guess they did get removed.
I don't know how balanced it was on ladder but in tournaments it was favoring Zerg.
TLPD Link.
This is from the time of the queen range patch to the time (ish) the rocks were removed.
On April 29 2013 06:01 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 04:53 Qikz wrote:On April 29 2013 04:21 TheDwf wrote:On April 29 2013 04:08 Shiori wrote:On April 29 2013 04:07 MidnightZL wrote:On April 28 2013 03:02 washikie wrote:
Why did they not remove star station? Maybe because ppl like it and it's a great map? What exactly is great about it? Scouting lottery on ladder, close spawns and a three screens wide concave at the third—what's not to love in there? There's nothing wrong with having to double scout. Close spawns are not that much of an issue anymore and on that map especially close spawns make little difference due to the relatively long rush distance. The only thing I'll give you is a big concave at the third, but with decent positioning it shouldn't be an issue and it favours both sides as both have relatively vunerable thirds. No one double scouts at high level, and open thirds are not equal for both sides because not all races/compositions have equal opportunities to exploit them.
That's cause all the 4p maps are forced cross in tournaments. (I do see players double scout on whirlwind.)
You're right about the openness of course, but you could claim that about any level of openness. What level of openness is the right one... We don't know that yet, apparently. Being this open should be bad for P but the winrates say otherwise.
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United Kingdom12025 Posts
On April 29 2013 06:01 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 04:53 Qikz wrote:On April 29 2013 04:21 TheDwf wrote:On April 29 2013 04:08 Shiori wrote:On April 29 2013 04:07 MidnightZL wrote:On April 28 2013 03:02 washikie wrote:
Why did they not remove star station? Maybe because ppl like it and it's a great map? What exactly is great about it? Scouting lottery on ladder, close spawns and a three screens wide concave at the third—what's not to love in there? There's nothing wrong with having to double scout. Close spawns are not that much of an issue anymore and on that map especially close spawns make little difference due to the relatively long rush distance. The only thing I'll give you is a big concave at the third, but with decent positioning it shouldn't be an issue and it favours both sides as both have relatively vunerable thirds. No one double scouts at high level, and open thirds are not equal for both sides because not all races/compositions have equal opportunities to exploit them.
Nobody double scouts as as said, no maps require you to. In BW people used to double scout all the time. Open thirds are equal for all sides as all races can abuse it. Protoss has recall now to kill a third and get out. Terran mech has the ability to harass open bases more easily and bio has the mobility to go snipe bases. Zerg excell in large areas too.
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Gonna miss Daybreak as I do Cloud Kingdom
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On April 29 2013 05:51 Gfire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 05:31 Dools1337 wrote:
Then again, TDA with rocks at the third favored Z towards the end of it's life so maybe we didn't know what we were talking about then, either.
You mean without rocks don't you ? No. The months before the rocks were removed, it was Z favored ZvP.
I had many a discussion about this. Zerg players did not like it because they had to use a different build due to the rocks, but it was always zerg favoured. The fact that you could not use blink to reduce the distance from main to 3rd made it muta heaven. In the early game protoss has to send the early second scout and could not safely nexus first even if they scouted the right direction due to the long travel time, which made up for zerg not being able to take the quick third.
On the other hand, in the case of Planet S I know jack all. As a protoss player I cannot fathom how protoss is doing so well on the map. There are things in both matchups that should just cause protoss to lose, but they dont.
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On April 29 2013 06:08 Gfire wrote:
That's cause all the 4p maps are forced cross in tournaments.
I was talking about ladder, but no, some 4p maps have all spawns enabled in tournaments (e. g. Whirlwind) or "no horizontal spawns" (e. g. Star Station in GSL; in ATC I think it's cross only).
(I do see players double scout on whirlwind.)
True, I forgot Protoss can do this in PvZ, but in other match-ups I never saw that.
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On April 29 2013 06:08 Gfire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 05:55 FCReverie wrote:On April 29 2013 05:31 Dools1337 wrote:
Then again, TDA with rocks at the third favored Z towards the end of it's life so maybe we didn't know what we were talking about then, either.
You mean without rocks don't you ? On ladder I thought that map had rocks until it was removed? I may be remembering wrong though. EDIT: My bad guess they did get removed. I don't know how balanced it was on ladder but in tournaments it was favoring Zerg. TLPD Link.This is from the time of the queen range patch to the time (ish) the rocks were removed. Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 06:01 TheDwf wrote:On April 29 2013 04:53 Qikz wrote:On April 29 2013 04:21 TheDwf wrote:On April 29 2013 04:08 Shiori wrote:On April 29 2013 04:07 MidnightZL wrote:On April 28 2013 03:02 washikie wrote:
Why did they not remove star station? Maybe because ppl like it and it's a great map? What exactly is great about it? Scouting lottery on ladder, close spawns and a three screens wide concave at the third—what's not to love in there? There's nothing wrong with having to double scout. Close spawns are not that much of an issue anymore and on that map especially close spawns make little difference due to the relatively long rush distance. The only thing I'll give you is a big concave at the third, but with decent positioning it shouldn't be an issue and it favours both sides as both have relatively vunerable thirds. No one double scouts at high level, and open thirds are not equal for both sides because not all races/compositions have equal opportunities to exploit them. That's cause all the 4p maps are forced cross in tournaments. (I do see players double scout on whirlwind.) You're right about the openness of course, but you could claim that about any level of openness. What level of openness is the right one... We don't know that yet, apparently. Being this open should be bad for P but the winrates say otherwise.
Taldarim wasn't zerg favored. Look at these:
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/maps/448_Crux_Tal'Darim_Altar_LE
zvt was 52% favoring terran (not bad) with a record of 64-57
zvp was 51.2% favoring zerg zvp (again not bad) with a record of 44 - 42
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On April 29 2013 08:51 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 07:48 hzflank wrote:On April 29 2013 05:51 Gfire wrote:On April 29 2013 05:31 Dools1337 wrote:
Then again, TDA with rocks at the third favored Z towards the end of it's life so maybe we didn't know what we were talking about then, either.
You mean without rocks don't you ? No. The months before the rocks were removed, it was Z favored ZvP. I had many a discussion about this. Zerg players did not like it because they had to use a different build due to the rocks, but it was always zerg favoured. The fact that you could not use blink to reduce the distance from main to 3rd made it muta heaven. In the early game protoss has to send the early second scout and could not safely nexus first even if they scouted the right direction due to the long travel time, which made up for zerg not being able to take the quick third. On the other hand, in the case of Planet S I know jack all. As a protoss player I cannot fathom how protoss is doing so well on the map. There are things in both matchups that should just cause protoss to lose, but they dont. The only viable option for Zerg on TD with rocks was an all in and 2 base Muta and both are countered by opening stargate.
Why were they the only options? What was so wrong with a basic pool > hatch > gas going up to 5 queens while you have have 6 lings slowly kill the rocks? You get a weaker economy but faster tech and creep and could still take your third before the protoss took theirs.
Also, stargate did not counter muta at the time. This was before they even added the phoenix range tech, let alone the hots phoenix range buff. Blink into 3 base storm was the counter to muta play, which was very hard to do on TDA.
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United States1699 Posts
On April 29 2013 08:51 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 06:08 Gfire wrote:On April 29 2013 05:55 FCReverie wrote:On April 29 2013 05:31 Dools1337 wrote:
Then again, TDA with rocks at the third favored Z towards the end of it's life so maybe we didn't know what we were talking about then, either.
You mean without rocks don't you ? On ladder I thought that map had rocks until it was removed? I may be remembering wrong though. EDIT: My bad guess they did get removed. I don't know how balanced it was on ladder but in tournaments it was favoring Zerg. TLPD Link.This is from the time of the queen range patch to the time (ish) the rocks were removed. On April 29 2013 06:01 TheDwf wrote:On April 29 2013 04:53 Qikz wrote:On April 29 2013 04:21 TheDwf wrote:On April 29 2013 04:08 Shiori wrote:On April 29 2013 04:07 MidnightZL wrote:On April 28 2013 03:02 washikie wrote:
Why did they not remove star station? Maybe because ppl like it and it's a great map? What exactly is great about it? Scouting lottery on ladder, close spawns and a three screens wide concave at the third—what's not to love in there? There's nothing wrong with having to double scout. Close spawns are not that much of an issue anymore and on that map especially close spawns make little difference due to the relatively long rush distance. The only thing I'll give you is a big concave at the third, but with decent positioning it shouldn't be an issue and it favours both sides as both have relatively vunerable thirds. No one double scouts at high level, and open thirds are not equal for both sides because not all races/compositions have equal opportunities to exploit them. That's cause all the 4p maps are forced cross in tournaments. (I do see players double scout on whirlwind.) You're right about the openness of course, but you could claim that about any level of openness. What level of openness is the right one... We don't know that yet, apparently. Being this open should be bad for P but the winrates say otherwise. Taldarim wasn't zerg favored. Look at these: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/maps/448_Crux_Tal'Darim_Altar_LEzvt was 52% favoring terran (not bad) with a record of 64-57 zvp was 51.2% favoring zerg zvp (again not bad) with a record of 44 - 42
We're talking about totally different periods of time here. What you have is all-time in Korea only. I don't think it was even played much in Korea during the time period that I was talking about. It was close to balanced for some time, but as the patches came out and meta evolved, it became Zerg favored by the time the rocks were removed.
On April 29 2013 09:00 hzflank wrote:
Also, stargate did not counter muta at the time. This was before they even added the phoenix range tech, let alone the hots phoenix range buff. Blink into 3 base storm was the counter to muta play, which was very hard to do on TDA.
Phoenix range was in by that time.
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On April 29 2013 09:03 Gfire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 08:51 blade55555 wrote:On April 29 2013 06:08 Gfire wrote:On April 29 2013 05:55 FCReverie wrote:On April 29 2013 05:31 Dools1337 wrote:
Then again, TDA with rocks at the third favored Z towards the end of it's life so maybe we didn't know what we were talking about then, either.
You mean without rocks don't you ? On ladder I thought that map had rocks until it was removed? I may be remembering wrong though. EDIT: My bad guess they did get removed. I don't know how balanced it was on ladder but in tournaments it was favoring Zerg. TLPD Link.This is from the time of the queen range patch to the time (ish) the rocks were removed. On April 29 2013 06:01 TheDwf wrote:On April 29 2013 04:53 Qikz wrote:On April 29 2013 04:21 TheDwf wrote:On April 29 2013 04:08 Shiori wrote:On April 29 2013 04:07 MidnightZL wrote:On April 28 2013 03:02 washikie wrote:
Why did they not remove star station? Maybe because ppl like it and it's a great map? What exactly is great about it? Scouting lottery on ladder, close spawns and a three screens wide concave at the third—what's not to love in there? There's nothing wrong with having to double scout. Close spawns are not that much of an issue anymore and on that map especially close spawns make little difference due to the relatively long rush distance. The only thing I'll give you is a big concave at the third, but with decent positioning it shouldn't be an issue and it favours both sides as both have relatively vunerable thirds. No one double scouts at high level, and open thirds are not equal for both sides because not all races/compositions have equal opportunities to exploit them. That's cause all the 4p maps are forced cross in tournaments. (I do see players double scout on whirlwind.) You're right about the openness of course, but you could claim that about any level of openness. What level of openness is the right one... We don't know that yet, apparently. Being this open should be bad for P but the winrates say otherwise. Taldarim wasn't zerg favored. Look at these: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/maps/448_Crux_Tal'Darim_Altar_LEzvt was 52% favoring terran (not bad) with a record of 64-57 zvp was 51.2% favoring zerg zvp (again not bad) with a record of 44 - 42 We're talking about totally different periods of time here. What you have is all-time in Korea only. I don't think it was even played much in Korea during the time period that I was talking about. It was close to balanced for some time, but as the patches came out and meta evolved, it became Zerg favored by the time the rocks were removed. Show nested quote +On April 29 2013 09:00 hzflank wrote:
Also, stargate did not counter muta at the time. This was before they even added the phoenix range tech, let alone the hots phoenix range buff. Blink into 3 base storm was the counter to muta play, which was very hard to do on TDA. Phoenix range was in by that time.
still, no one went phoenix to counter muta at the time. the accepted counter to muta was 3 base storm.
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Blizzard is getting much better at making maps, but like 90% of the 4p maps they make or add to the ladder should just be cross only.......
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On April 29 2013 09:55 Shebuha wrote:
Blizzard is getting much better at making maps, but like 90% of the 4p maps they make or add to the ladder should just be cross only.......
Imagine the horizontal doom drops /siege tanks from horizontal spawn 4ths to 4ths...
-_-
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EPT
