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On April 24 2013 23:20 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 23:18 saltis wrote:On April 24 2013 23:14 DarkLordOlli wrote:Interesting, however you may have seen recent screenshots from people like TLO that show where that "minority of terran players" is. They're right at the top. Seems like "minority of terran players" you are talking about currently are the best players while overall Terran makes the minority. No, not really. EU terrans are not that much better than the other two races' players in EU. Same in korea where the top of the ladder is even more terran packed. They're not that much better, terran is just really strong right now. As said above, percentage of representation doesn't equal balance.
Consistency throughout all servers and in most of leagues is the same : Terran players have least chances to get promoted to higher Leagues. Obviously Blizzard was aware of it by making decision not to nerf Terran.
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Austria24417 Posts
On April 24 2013 23:24 saltis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 23:20 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 24 2013 23:18 saltis wrote:On April 24 2013 23:14 DarkLordOlli wrote:Interesting, however you may have seen recent screenshots from people like TLO that show where that "minority of terran players" is. They're right at the top. Seems like "minority of terran players" you are talking about currently are the best players while overall Terran makes the minority. No, not really. EU terrans are not that much better than the other two races' players in EU. Same in korea where the top of the ladder is even more terran packed. They're not that much better, terran is just really strong right now. As said above, percentage of representation doesn't equal balance. Consistency throughout all servers and in most of leagues is the same : Terran players have least chances to get promoted to higher Leagues. Obviously Blizzard was aware of it by making decision not to nerf Terran.
I don't...
like
what
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On April 24 2013 18:50 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 18:38 Veriol wrote:
How is +bio on spores solve muta zvz? This change just heavily implies that they have NO IDEA. Problem with zvz is you cant take safely third because infestors wont stop mutas (like they did in wol). Therefore muta player always have uncontested third and can just roll over you with anything In WoL ZvZ you couldn't safely take your third either before infestors againts mutas. That's why so many Zergs opened mutas. Basically the ZvZ (macro-)metagame in WoL at the end was one of the following: -) Zerg1 goes mutas and early third, Zerg2 goes upgrades, roaches and infestors and later third. -) Zerg1 and Zerg2 go upgrades, roaches and early third and then either infestors or hydras. (rarely you'd get muta vs muta, as just like in HotS, muta vs muta openings favor the player that already has an advantage. So a player who took some damage, or overmade gasunits - banelings and roaches - early on simply wouldn't try to go muta) The thing was, that you could go 2base vs 3base for a short amount of time, as long as you were better set up in terms of upgrades and technology - two things that right now don't matter past building a spire.
my point stands still. you cant go infestors because if you do and miss fungal (very likely) or you dont have enough to chain fungal to death its just useless.
In wol you could hit fungals easier and they did damage that did matter.
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On April 24 2013 23:20 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 23:18 saltis wrote:On April 24 2013 23:14 DarkLordOlli wrote:Interesting, however you may have seen recent screenshots from people like TLO that show where that "minority of terran players" is. They're right at the top. Seems like "minority of terran players" you are talking about currently are the best players while overall Terran makes the minority. No, not really. EU terrans are not that much better than the other two races' players in EU. Same in korea where the top of the ladder is even more terran packed. They're not that much better, terran is just really strong right now. As said above, percentage of representation doesn't equal balance. Tbh I don't perfectly know how many terrans are where, it's just far far far from "zerg dominating", terran being bad and protoss being stable. Balance is prety decent atm.
Beside , today 24th of April the situation on TOP 20 KR GM ladder is this : there are 7 Zerg players, 7 Toss players, 6 Terran players.
http://www.sc2ranks.com/ranks/fea
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The only time you really see hydras is ZvP and if buffed would completely break that matchup.
That's only because protoss is so reliant on high tier units for their deathballs though.
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On April 24 2013 23:20 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 23:18 saltis wrote:On April 24 2013 23:14 DarkLordOlli wrote:Interesting, however you may have seen recent screenshots from people like TLO that show where that "minority of terran players" is. They're right at the top. Seems like "minority of terran players" you are talking about currently are the best players while overall Terran makes the minority. No, not really. EU terrans are not that much better than the other two races' players in EU. Same in korea where the top of the ladder is even more terran packed. They're not that much better, terran is just really strong right now. As said above, percentage of representation doesn't equal balance. Tbh I don't perfectly know how many terrans are where, it's just far far far from "zerg dominating", terran being bad and protoss being stable. Balance is prety decent atm.
On KR, there are like 9 Terrans in the top 40 spots. Innovation and Prime Terrans seem to do well, but aside from that, nothing too alarming.
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I like the oracle changes, I've been playing around with stargate openings in PvT and its hard to keep the oracle alive in the mid game(maybe im just really bad). Having the oracle around during mid game is insanely helpful for monitoring drops and army movements and I hope pros can use it more often because I feel like revelation has great potential
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On April 24 2013 23:59 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 23:20 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 24 2013 23:18 saltis wrote:On April 24 2013 23:14 DarkLordOlli wrote:Interesting, however you may have seen recent screenshots from people like TLO that show where that "minority of terran players" is. They're right at the top. Seems like "minority of terran players" you are talking about currently are the best players while overall Terran makes the minority. No, not really. EU terrans are not that much better than the other two races' players in EU. Same in korea where the top of the ladder is even more terran packed. They're not that much better, terran is just really strong right now. As said above, percentage of representation doesn't equal balance. Tbh I don't perfectly know how many terrans are where, it's just far far far from "zerg dominating", terran being bad and protoss being stable. Balance is prety decent atm. On KR, there are like 9 Terrans in the top 40 spots. Innovation and Prime Terrans seem to do well, but aside from that, nothing too alarming.
To complete:
I think there is a kind of "surprise effect" to Terran doing well which is so strong that normal performances (after disastrous ones at the end of Liberty) seem overwhelming. Like, calm down guys, 50% of Terrans have gone through their Code S Ro32 round... that's not that much, but it's still encouraging compared to the pitiful 35% winrate they had against Zerg in the past.
Bunny qualified for WCS EU? By beating LiveZerg? Well he probably wasn't that far from LiveEzrg in skill in the first place, but with Zerg being considerably less effective now, people seem to think of that as an "upset".
I'm sure master Zergs can't just a-move their Terran opponent with twice the army as they could before, but I would consider that normal, and I would also understand that they're surprised and kinda frustrated to have more difficulties in that matchup than before.
Let's wait a bit for things to settle before striking Terran with the nerf hammer. Again. :D
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I'm sure master Zergs can't just a-move their Terran opponent with twice the army as they could before, but I would consider that normal, and I would also understand that they're surprised and kinda frustrated to have more difficulties in that matchup than before.
I don't like the dynamic change where WM forces you to bait their attacks first - it doesn't prevent the a-move it just introduces additional micro to make the class more difficult to play - on both the bait and your detector, to what is already the most difficult class. For anyone gold and below 8/10 times they'll lose their entire army and the game with zero effort from the terran. Its not the right answer.
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2. Burrow cost and/or research time down
Towards the beginning of HotS, early burrow attacks showed some decent potential but we never see it anymore. We thought this variety in opening especially on the Zerg that usually play a defensive early game was cool. So we're wondering how early game Zerg can evolve if we made early game attacks using burrow more effective.
Just reintroduce the lurker already.. Such an unbelievably massive mistake to take it out so long ago.
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On April 25 2013 01:50 Crankyhobo wrote:Show nested quote +I'm sure master Zergs can't just a-move their Terran opponent with twice the army as they could before, but I would consider that normal, and I would also understand that they're surprised and kinda frustrated to have more difficulties in that matchup than before. I don't like the dynamic change where WM forces you to bait their attacks first - it doesn't prevent the a-move it just introduces additional micro to make the class more difficult to play - on both the bait and your detector, to what is already the most difficult class. For anyone gold and below 8/10 times they'll lose their entire army and the game with zero effort from the terran. Its not the right answer.
How does a lower skill cap help the growth of sc2?
And lower league Terrans die to banelings.
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On April 25 2013 01:50 Crankyhobo wrote:Show nested quote +I'm sure master Zergs can't just a-move their Terran opponent with twice the army as they could before, but I would consider that normal, and I would also understand that they're surprised and kinda frustrated to have more difficulties in that matchup than before. I don't like the dynamic change where WM forces you to bait their attacks first - it doesn't prevent the a-move it just introduces additional micro to make the class more difficult to play - on both the bait and your detector, to what is already the most difficult class. For anyone gold and below 8/10 times they'll lose their entire army and the game with zero effort from the terran. Its not the right answer.
People typically refer to a-move as doing that, and only that. Additional micro would mean "Zergs can't just a-move their Terran opponent"....just as he said.
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On April 25 2013 01:50 Crankyhobo wrote:Show nested quote +I'm sure master Zergs can't just a-move their Terran opponent with twice the army as they could before, but I would consider that normal, and I would also understand that they're surprised and kinda frustrated to have more difficulties in that matchup than before. I don't like the dynamic change where WM forces you to bait their attacks first - it doesn't prevent the a-move it just introduces additional micro to make the class more difficult to play - on both the bait and your detector, to what is already the most difficult class. For anyone gold and below 8/10 times they'll lose their entire army and the game with zero effort from the terran.
Whereas, of course, Gold and below Terran players never struggled with splitting Marines efficiently against Banelings (with tremendous effort from the Zerg).
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I was hoping for something to make PvP not be so stupidly random. Right now if you make an Oracle to detect potential DTs and they skip the detector and just make void rays or phoenix, you're in serious trouble. Of course if you don't make it, you just lose to the DTs.
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On April 24 2013 23:23 BerthaG wrote:
WTF Hydra are so op right now, it cost nothing and counter almost everything except colosus and ht, but with viper this became crazy.
All Z should go hydra in mid game : counter all gateway + immo and stargate and then add some roaches and viper and it is GG.
Hydra has too much dps, i understand why in WOL it has a big nerf out of creep.
this is highly incorrect.... hydras are not OP in any way shape or form. Its just that now, with their two upgrades, they are a respectable unit. But u have to remember, they still cost 100/100 which is a lot for a very fragile light 85 hp unit, especially when you can get mutas for the same price which do aoe damage, are fast, fly and regenerate. Personally i use hydras a rather lot but thats mostly because i think they are funner than muta's.
They are def a strong unit now with their speed, but in no way are they OP. Hellbats, mines and VR's are units that you could def say are slightly OP atm, but not hydras.
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On April 25 2013 03:08 Empedocles wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 23:23 BerthaG wrote:
WTF Hydra are so op right now, it cost nothing and counter almost everything except colosus and ht, but with viper this became crazy.
All Z should go hydra in mid game : counter all gateway + immo and stargate and then add some roaches and viper and it is GG.
Hydra has too much dps, i understand why in WOL it has a big nerf out of creep.
this is highly incorrect.... hydras are not OP in any way shape or form. Its just that now, with their two upgrades, they are a respectable unit. But u have to remember, they still cost 100/100 which is a lot for a very fragile light 85 hp unit, especially when you can get mutas for the same price which do aoe damage, are fast, fly and regenerate. Personally i use hydras a rather lot but thats mostly because i think they are funner than muta's. They are def a strong unit now with their speed, but in no way are they OP. Hellbats, mines and VR's are units that you could def say are slightly OP atm, but not hydras.
Ahem, hydras cost 100/50
Edit: they are also 80 hp not 85
Edit 2: also "funner" is not a word :p (Sorry I couldn't resist)
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On April 24 2013 15:41 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 15:34 Belha wrote:On April 23 2013 10:06 ETisME wrote:
Oracle speed is insane already. Why is everything so fast nowadays with speedmedivac and new muta
Nothing on terran drop only style which is disappointing I agree on this, why in the world there must be stupidly fast stuff?? The muta problem is because of the silly hots muta buff. Because insanely fast stuff is insanely more entertaining to watch. As a Protoss player, dealing with the Speedivac is definetely difficult but not impossible. It's rewarding when I completely shut down a Terran harass. Same goes for the Zerg Mutalisks. As Protoss you need to actively scout for the Spire and prepare for a Mutalisk switch accordingly. A lot of people say you need Phoenix to deal with the Mutalisk. Sure, you do. Another way of getting a win Straight off the bat is adding gates and going all-in with what you have (considering a tech switch situation). Works quite beautifully most of the time.
No. Faster is not more entertaining at all. Sc2 is way faster than Sc bw. And micro is not as important and entertaining as it was. LoL (while is inferior and less deep) is slower than dota 2, and got 10 times more viewers and players.
And PLEASE, stop talking about balance and our mediocre masterish level experiences in the same post.
Balance is done considering the best and skilled players, not the mediocre ones.
Go tell a pro Z or P that medivac/hellbat/mine combination is fine and rewarding to shut down.
And how in the world a reactive gate all-in works for a pro P vs a decent Z?!? I have never ever seen that. Yeah, of curse it works all the way in our mediocre level. But balance is not done about players with limited skills as us.
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Someone nees to tell blizzard that they need to stop messing with the stupid infestor changes... it seems that blizzard has yet to realize their mistakes, and want to keep messing with infestors... the +AA on bio is great, but if they change infestors the way it will affect the other 2 matchups as well... and as a protoss player i like infestors the way they are... Z can still use infestors and they still work fine, but it takes a bit more skills on their part to use them, thus they're not called "Winfestors" in hots... but if blizzard were to make any adjustments that would change (positively: ie, no porjective, or increase infested terran health) infestor's fungal or infested terran like they did in wol that would definitely affect zvp and zvt greatly.
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On April 25 2013 03:11 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 03:08 Empedocles wrote:On April 24 2013 23:23 BerthaG wrote:
WTF Hydra are so op right now, it cost nothing and counter almost everything except colosus and ht, but with viper this became crazy.
All Z should go hydra in mid game : counter all gateway + immo and stargate and then add some roaches and viper and it is GG.
Hydra has too much dps, i understand why in WOL it has a big nerf out of creep.
this is highly incorrect.... hydras are not OP in any way shape or form. Its just that now, with their two upgrades, they are a respectable unit. But u have to remember, they still cost 100/100 which is a lot for a very fragile light 85 hp unit, especially when you can get mutas for the same price which do aoe damage, are fast, fly and regenerate. Personally i use hydras a rather lot but thats mostly because i think they are funner than muta's. They are def a strong unit now with their speed, but in no way are they OP. Hellbats, mines and VR's are units that you could def say are slightly OP atm, but not hydras. Ahem, hydras cost 100/50 Edit: they are also 80 hp not 85 Edit 2: also "funner" is not a word :p (Sorry I couldn't resist)
LOL thanks for the correction !!!
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EPT
