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On April 25 2013 03:13 Belha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 15:41 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:On April 24 2013 15:34 Belha wrote:On April 23 2013 10:06 ETisME wrote:
Oracle speed is insane already. Why is everything so fast nowadays with speedmedivac and new muta
Nothing on terran drop only style which is disappointing I agree on this, why in the world there must be stupidly fast stuff?? The muta problem is because of the silly hots muta buff. Because insanely fast stuff is insanely more entertaining to watch. As a Protoss player, dealing with the Speedivac is definetely difficult but not impossible. It's rewarding when I completely shut down a Terran harass. Same goes for the Zerg Mutalisks. As Protoss you need to actively scout for the Spire and prepare for a Mutalisk switch accordingly. A lot of people say you need Phoenix to deal with the Mutalisk. Sure, you do. Another way of getting a win Straight off the bat is adding gates and going all-in with what you have (considering a tech switch situation). Works quite beautifully most of the time. No. Faster is not more entertaining at all. Sc2 is way faster than Sc bw. And micro is not as important and entertaining as it was. LoL (while is inferior and less deep) is slower than dota 2, and got 10 times more viewers and players. And PLEASE, stop talking about balance and our mediocre masterish level experiences in the same post. Balance is done considering the best and skilled players, not the mediocre ones. Go tell a pro Z or P that medivac/hellbat/mine combination is fine and rewarding to shut down. And how in the world a reactive gate all-in works for a pro P vs a decent Z?!? I have never ever seen that. Yeah, of curse it works all the way in our mediocre level. But balance is not done about players with limited skills as us.
1. LoL has gotten 10 times more viewers than dota because dota 2 came late into the current MOBA scene.
2. LoL has 10 times the viewers because it a free game and casual gamers can relate because it is free-to-play
3. LoL has very little depth and is inferior in skill, thus viewers can easily comprehend the game and would not have to use their brain in order to understand certain situations. whereas sc2 and dota has more complex mechanics (sc2 more than dota) thus new viewers or new players have trouble understanding and/or enjoy watching at the higher level.
4. You've clearly never watched GuMiHo play. The more actions going on around the map the better, Sc:BW was entertaining because at the end of the game multiple actions was played around there map and it was not a complete turtlefest. So technically speaking SCBW is faster than SC2 in a way.
5. Have you ever read anything from sc2 developers? they develope the game regarding ALL statistics and balance the game fairly generally. However, yes, they do focus a lot more on the pro play because that is where they value the game not some lowly noob QQing about balance.
6. Pro ZPT players will always tell you how rewarding it is to shut down a medivac/hellion/mine drop, because they know how dangerous it is in the prolvl and how badly it could turn out.
Your misconstrued notion of the game is so disturbing that i feel you should not try and tell people you're a "mid-master" cuz clearly your game knowledge is no less than a diamond player who only watches a few tournaments on your spare time.
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On April 24 2013 20:02 blackbrrd wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 19:43 Quateras wrote:
I wonder why Blizzard feels so reluctant to buff the hydra range AA or DMG output.
I can't seem to find a reason for them not to.
It would certainly help them in ZvZ, ZvP with the skytoss and ZvT should be fine too,no?
Feels weird, but I'd just like to see more hydras, i miss them from BW :D Because of the other matchups - for instance against Protoss where they are very strong already?
They could give them a separate anti air attack and put increased damage vs bio on it. It would only effect the mirror match and there is precedence (Tempest has +massive on their anti air only).
It would not solve the problem though. Mutas would still allow their owner to get ahead in bases and prevent their opponent from just attacking them. The solution has to involve the infestor somehow as it is the only ground unit that can counter the mobility of the mutas.
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On April 25 2013 03:32 Advantageous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 03:13 Belha wrote:On April 24 2013 15:41 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:On April 24 2013 15:34 Belha wrote:On April 23 2013 10:06 ETisME wrote:
Oracle speed is insane already. Why is everything so fast nowadays with speedmedivac and new muta
Nothing on terran drop only style which is disappointing I agree on this, why in the world there must be stupidly fast stuff?? The muta problem is because of the silly hots muta buff. Because insanely fast stuff is insanely more entertaining to watch. As a Protoss player, dealing with the Speedivac is definetely difficult but not impossible. It's rewarding when I completely shut down a Terran harass. Same goes for the Zerg Mutalisks. As Protoss you need to actively scout for the Spire and prepare for a Mutalisk switch accordingly. A lot of people say you need Phoenix to deal with the Mutalisk. Sure, you do. Another way of getting a win Straight off the bat is adding gates and going all-in with what you have (considering a tech switch situation). Works quite beautifully most of the time. No. Faster is not more entertaining at all. Sc2 is way faster than Sc bw. And micro is not as important and entertaining as it was. LoL (while is inferior and less deep) is slower than dota 2, and got 10 times more viewers and players. And PLEASE, stop talking about balance and our mediocre masterish level experiences in the same post. Balance is done considering the best and skilled players, not the mediocre ones. Go tell a pro Z or P that medivac/hellbat/mine combination is fine and rewarding to shut down. And how in the world a reactive gate all-in works for a pro P vs a decent Z?!? I have never ever seen that. Yeah, of curse it works all the way in our mediocre level. But balance is not done about players with limited skills as us. 1. LoL has gotten 10 times more viewers than dota because dota 2 came late into the current MOBA scene. 2. LoL has 10 times the viewers because it a free game and casual gamers can relate because it is free-to-play 3. LoL has very little depth and is inferior in skill, thus viewers can easily comprehend the game and would not have to use their brain in order to understand certain situations. whereas sc2 and dota has more complex mechanics (sc2 more than dota) thus new viewers or new players have trouble understanding and/or enjoy watching at the higher level. 4. You've clearly never watched GuMiHo play. The more actions going on around the map the better, Sc:BW was entertaining because at the end of the game multiple actions was played around there map and it was not a complete turtlefest. So technically speaking SCBW is faster than SC2 in a way. 5. Have you ever read anything from sc2 developers? they develope the game regarding ALL statistics and balance the game fairly generally. However, yes, they do focus a lot more on the pro play because that is where they value the game not some lowly noob QQing about balance. 6. Pro ZPT players will always tell you how rewarding it is to shut down a medivac/hellion/mine drop, because they know how dangerous it is in the prolvl and how badly it could turn out. Your misconstrued notion of the game is so disturbing that i feel you should not try and tell people you're a "mid-master" cuz clearly your game knowledge is no less than a diamond player who only watches a few tournaments on your spare time.
So half your post is about LoL. Cool.
"Sc Bw faster than Sc2 in a way". In a way. Ok. Guess what: Sc2 is faster than Sc Bw. That's it. Bw required more apm due to an old IU. But the game is way slower. Have you ever read the comment "2 sec battles decide the games". I did. Multiple times.
Reading about Sc2 developers? Sadly yes. And they made a great game, that could be wayy better, but they introduced mechanics that limit the game a lot. So honestly I'm do not agree with them about their methods.
Again: Have you ever read the comment "2 sec battles decide the games". I did. Multiple times. And that means bad design. It changed a bit, sure, a bit.
I'm pretty sure that considering Bw faster than Sc2 is the mother of miscontructed notions about the game. And face it, being master still means we suck at this game and our game is not paramether at all for balance.
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Nothing about voidrays or swarm hosts? How peculiar.
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To be honest, I really don't think they should buff spore crawlers as their solution. The problem is that there's no army that can effectively deal with mutas in ZvZ except for MORE MUTAS. Yeah, stronger spores mean your base is safe, but the player with more mutas still owns the rest of the map and can do nearly whatever he wants, and as long as he's attentive, he can dodge fungal.
I think a hydralisk buff may be the way to go. Another alternative would be to allow players to detonate their banelings inside of overlord, essentially creating explosive ovies.
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Edit: sorry! accidental double post. Carry on.
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Germany25658 Posts
On April 25 2013 03:32 Advantageous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 03:13 Belha wrote:On April 24 2013 15:41 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:On April 24 2013 15:34 Belha wrote:On April 23 2013 10:06 ETisME wrote:
Oracle speed is insane already. Why is everything so fast nowadays with speedmedivac and new muta
Nothing on terran drop only style which is disappointing I agree on this, why in the world there must be stupidly fast stuff?? The muta problem is because of the silly hots muta buff. Because insanely fast stuff is insanely more entertaining to watch. As a Protoss player, dealing with the Speedivac is definetely difficult but not impossible. It's rewarding when I completely shut down a Terran harass. Same goes for the Zerg Mutalisks. As Protoss you need to actively scout for the Spire and prepare for a Mutalisk switch accordingly. A lot of people say you need Phoenix to deal with the Mutalisk. Sure, you do. Another way of getting a win Straight off the bat is adding gates and going all-in with what you have (considering a tech switch situation). Works quite beautifully most of the time. No. Faster is not more entertaining at all. Sc2 is way faster than Sc bw. And micro is not as important and entertaining as it was. LoL (while is inferior and less deep) is slower than dota 2, and got 10 times more viewers and players. And PLEASE, stop talking about balance and our mediocre masterish level experiences in the same post. Balance is done considering the best and skilled players, not the mediocre ones. Go tell a pro Z or P that medivac/hellbat/mine combination is fine and rewarding to shut down. And how in the world a reactive gate all-in works for a pro P vs a decent Z?!? I have never ever seen that. Yeah, of curse it works all the way in our mediocre level. But balance is not done about players with limited skills as us. 1. LoL has gotten 10 times more viewers than dota because dota 2 came late into the current MOBA scene. 2. LoL has 10 times the viewers because it a free game and casual gamers can relate because it is free-to-play 3. LoL has very little depth and is inferior in skill, thus viewers can easily comprehend the game and would not have to use their brain in order to understand certain situations. whereas sc2 and dota has more complex mechanics (sc2 more than dota) thus new viewers or new players have trouble understanding and/or enjoy watching at the higher level. 4. You've clearly never watched GuMiHo play. The more actions going on around the map the better, Sc:BW was entertaining because at the end of the game multiple actions was played around there map and it was not a complete turtlefest. So technically speaking SCBW is faster than SC2 in a way. 5. Have you ever read anything from sc2 developers? they develope the game regarding ALL statistics and balance the game fairly generally. However, yes, they do focus a lot more on the pro play because that is where they value the game not some lowly noob QQing about balance. 6. Pro ZPT players will always tell you how rewarding it is to shut down a medivac/hellion/mine drop, because they know how dangerous it is in the prolvl and how badly it could turn out. Your misconstrued notion of the game is so disturbing that i feel you should not try and tell people you're a "mid-master" cuz clearly your game knowledge is no less than a diamond player who only watches a few tournaments on your spare time.
Let's not turn this into a LoL debate please.
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lmfao, I don't get it.
Why does zergs want a change in their matchup? Remember what happened when infestors got buffed and suddenly ZvZ became a stale roach infestor vs roach infestor matchup into gglords vs gglords.
What they have now is WAY better than whatever they had in WoL
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On April 25 2013 04:20 Nightsz wrote:
lmfao, I don't get it.
Why does zergs want a change in their matchup? Remember what happened when infestors got buffed and suddenly ZvZ became a stale roach infestor vs roach infestor matchup into gglords vs gglords.
What they have now is WAY better than whatever they had in WoL
Yeah, I wish Blizzard would wait *at least* a few more months to a year before considering changes. I love how ZvZ is heavily based on ling/bling wars which are incredibly difficult and fun to watch. When we're getting longish games with constant aggression, leave it alone IMO.
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On April 25 2013 04:25 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 04:20 Nightsz wrote:
lmfao, I don't get it.
Why does zergs want a change in their matchup? Remember what happened when infestors got buffed and suddenly ZvZ became a stale roach infestor vs roach infestor matchup into gglords vs gglords.
What they have now is WAY better than whatever they had in WoL Yeah, I wish Blizzard would wait *at least* a few more months to a year before considering changes. I love how ZvZ is heavily based on ling/bling wars which are incredibly difficult and fun to watch. When we're getting longish games with constant aggression, leave it alone IMO.
Agreed. I think the game should develop naturally.
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On April 25 2013 04:20 Nightsz wrote:
lmfao, I don't get it.
Why does zergs want a change in their matchup? Remember what happened when infestors got buffed and suddenly ZvZ became a stale roach infestor vs roach infestor matchup into gglords vs gglords.
What they have now is WAY better than whatever they had in WoL
That is a kind of lazy way of describing ZvZ back in wings. It was a little more varied in general than just roach infestor into broodlord. Having both ground based ZvZ as well as muta ling. Zerg lategame for all matchups was stale not just ZvZ.
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On April 25 2013 04:20 Nightsz wrote:
lmfao, I don't get it.
Why does zergs want a change in their matchup? Remember what happened when infestors got buffed and suddenly ZvZ became a stale roach infestor vs roach infestor matchup into gglords vs gglords.
What they have now is WAY better than whatever they had in WoL
I completely disagree with that. In WoL at least you had a bit of opportunity to have your own space. But look at BW ZvZ everything is set in stone and games are more of a gamble than anything else. But in BW you at least have something to micro + there are scourges in sc2 you can't really micro mutas and it's quite boring from a playing and spectating standpoint.
So instead of creating ZvZ a matchup of a battle of the same composition and the bigger number wins they should let people have different ways to play kinda like in TvT (bio tank/mech/drop intensive/harass intensive/banshee/window bio etc). If there is only one composition available in the match up and it's even a boring one people will insanely hate it. I already do.
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On April 25 2013 04:16 SKIKS wrote:
I think a hydralisk buff may be the way to go. Another alternative would be to allow players to detonate their banelings inside of overlord, essentially creating explosive ovies.
That is probably one of the coolest and most original ideas I've read on here.... i really wish this kind of interaction was possible. It would make overlord drops way better and really interesting to watch
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On April 25 2013 04:27 AnomalySC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 04:25 Treemonkeys wrote:On April 25 2013 04:20 Nightsz wrote:
lmfao, I don't get it.
Why does zergs want a change in their matchup? Remember what happened when infestors got buffed and suddenly ZvZ became a stale roach infestor vs roach infestor matchup into gglords vs gglords.
What they have now is WAY better than whatever they had in WoL Yeah, I wish Blizzard would wait *at least* a few more months to a year before considering changes. I love how ZvZ is heavily based on ling/bling wars which are incredibly difficult and fun to watch. When we're getting longish games with constant aggression, leave it alone IMO. Agreed. I think the game should develop naturally.
People think things are imba when maybe they're just really difficult to deal with. Make it too easy and you end up with stale/safe/boring matchups. I think this happened with wings with too many balance changes.
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On April 25 2013 04:20 Nightsz wrote:
lmfao, I don't get it.
Why does zergs want a change in their matchup? Remember what happened when infestors got buffed and suddenly ZvZ became a stale roach infestor vs roach infestor matchup into gglords vs gglords.
What they have now is WAY better than whatever they had in WoL
In WoL's ZvZ you could chose what strategy to play rather than being forced into the dominant one. Although roach&infestor&hydra was the most established there were multiple variations and ways to get the end game army leading to interesting dynamic of getting advantage in one aspect while suffering in others. For example 2 base 2 evo roach infestor with later 3rd vs 2 base ~10 mutas into fast 3rd into switch into infestor roach. While it might seem uninteresting in theory it was very tense and interesting - there were opportunities for nydus&queen all in, hiding a hydra den and not quite droning the 3rd and attacking much earlier; on the other side the muta player could go for mass speed bane trying to break the 3rd, skip gas on his 3rd and go for mass roach, go for drops even!
The match offered diversity.
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On April 25 2013 00:33 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 23:59 ZenithM wrote:On April 24 2013 23:20 DarkLordOlli wrote:On April 24 2013 23:18 saltis wrote:On April 24 2013 23:14 DarkLordOlli wrote:Interesting, however you may have seen recent screenshots from people like TLO that show where that "minority of terran players" is. They're right at the top. Seems like "minority of terran players" you are talking about currently are the best players while overall Terran makes the minority. No, not really. EU terrans are not that much better than the other two races' players in EU. Same in korea where the top of the ladder is even more terran packed. They're not that much better, terran is just really strong right now. As said above, percentage of representation doesn't equal balance. Tbh I don't perfectly know how many terrans are where, it's just far far far from "zerg dominating", terran being bad and protoss being stable. Balance is prety decent atm. On KR, there are like 9 Terrans in the top 40 spots. Innovation and Prime Terrans seem to do well, but aside from that, nothing too alarming. To complete: I think there is a kind of "surprise effect" to Terran doing well which is so strong that normal performances (after disastrous ones at the end of Liberty) seem overwhelming. Like, calm down guys, 50% of Terrans have gone through their Code S Ro32 round... that's not that much, but it's still encouraging compared to the pitiful 35% winrate they had against Zerg in the past. Bunny qualified for WCS EU? By beating LiveZerg? Well he probably wasn't that far from LiveEzrg in skill in the first place, but with Zerg being considerably less effective now, people seem to think of that as an "upset". I'm sure master Zergs can't just a-move their Terran opponent with twice the army as they could before, but I would consider that normal, and I would also understand that they're surprised and kinda frustrated to have more difficulties in that matchup than before. Let's wait a bit for things to settle before striking Terran with the nerf hammer. Again. :D
Very well said. It's quite interesting how this psychology tends to work.
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On April 24 2013 22:53 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 22:35 Pogomais wrote:
Better patch ever : +10 Health to Hydras
Nope. :D Seriously people underestimate what any amount of variation of a unit's stats induces... Just to compare, imagine +17 hp to hellbats... Edit: To be fair, that's true that hydras are fragile cost-wise, compared to hellbats. But hydras are honestly not that bad that you need to give them a 12% hp increase 
The hydralisk is lacking in several areas. Hydras have less health than widow mines. They also require a 150/150 upgrade to move as fast as them. Is anyone else blown away?
Edit: maybe I should say something about the OP. Anyways, I'm surprised Blizzard even dares to look at spore crawlers again--honestly, they should have quietly reverted that +bio change and thought of something else. If you are spending minerals on spores while your opponent spends them on zerglings or a 3rd, you will die. But the most frustrating thing is that Blizzard seems to have completely given up on corruptors since the pre-HotS interview where they specifically said corruptors the shining example of a unit to completely retool/replace.
I honestly can't figure out why they didn't even attempt to alter corruptors after the first couple beta patches.
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On April 25 2013 05:15 -VapidSlug- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2013 22:53 ZenithM wrote:On April 24 2013 22:35 Pogomais wrote:
Better patch ever : +10 Health to Hydras
Nope. :D Seriously people underestimate what any amount of variation of a unit's stats induces... Just to compare, imagine +17 hp to hellbats... Edit: To be fair, that's true that hydras are fragile cost-wise, compared to hellbats. But hydras are honestly not that bad that you need to give them a 12% hp increase Hydras have less health than widow mines. They also require a 150/150 upgrade to move as fast as them. Is anyone else blown away?
I am unimpressed (especially as your comparison is completely random).
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On April 25 2013 04:16 SKIKS wrote:
To be honest, I really don't think they should buff spore crawlers as their solution. The problem is that there's no army that can effectively deal with mutas in ZvZ except for MORE MUTAS. Yeah, stronger spores mean your base is safe, but the player with more mutas still owns the rest of the map and can do nearly whatever he wants, and as long as he's attentive, he can dodge fungal.
I think a hydralisk buff may be the way to go. Another alternative would be to allow players to detonate their banelings inside of overlord, essentially creating explosive ovies.
That, my friend, is one of the best ideas I have ever heard.
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Gogo explosive overlords!!
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EPT
