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Blizzard's Potential Balance Test Map Changes - Page 42

Forum Index > SC2 General
1113 CommentsPost a Reply
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eviltomahawk
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States11135 Posts
April 24 2013 20:30 GMT
#821
Exploding Overlords does seem like too much of a design change to be considered at this point. It has potential and is funny as hell, but like most other big design changes, it probably won't be considered until LotV or perhaps never.

Then again, I don't know what Kerrigan has been smoking if she evolves the swarm from having elegant Scourge to having ghetto Overlord car bombs.
ㅇㅅㅌㅅ
convention
Profile Joined October 2011
United States622 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-24 20:34:42
April 24 2013 20:34 GMT
#822
On April 25 2013 04:27 AnomalySC2 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 25 2013 04:25 Treemonkeys wrote:
On April 25 2013 04:20 Nightsz wrote:
lmfao, I don't get it.

Why does zergs want a change in their matchup? Remember what happened when infestors got buffed and suddenly ZvZ became a stale roach infestor vs roach infestor matchup into gglords vs gglords.

What they have now is WAY better than whatever they had in WoL


Yeah, I wish Blizzard would wait *at least* a few more months to a year before considering changes. I love how ZvZ is heavily based on ling/bling wars which are incredibly difficult and fun to watch. When we're getting longish games with constant aggression, leave it alone IMO.


Agreed. I think the game should develop naturally.

Strange, back in the infestor/BL days of WoL, zergs wanted the game to balance itself naturally. Now that terrans are in the same situation as zerg was in the infestor/BL days (the *only* foreigners doing really well all happen to be terran...), they want the game to develop naturally.
TripseT
Profile Joined November 2011
United States15 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-24 20:35:39
April 24 2013 20:34 GMT
#823


The hydralisk is lacking in several areas. Hydras have less health than widow mines. They also require a 150/150 upgrade to move as fast as them. Is anyone else blown away?



Since day one: Stalkers are 125/50 and roaches cost 75/25, without blink (150/150) and get beat by a unit that cost 50/25 less, and without blink usually get beat by roaches. Is anyone else blown away?

Either way i like these possible balance changes. Depends on how much faster oracles will be, seems interesting and i love watching burrow micro, so seeing this be reduced could make and zerg matchup more interesting and skillful in the beginning to mid game.
Keep on keepin' on
-VapidSlug-
Profile Joined June 2012
United States108 Posts
April 24 2013 20:35 GMT
#824
On April 25 2013 05:17 TheDwf wrote:I am unimpressed (especially as your comparison is completely random).


I realized that was a bit random which is why I added a little more. I just looked up WM in the wiki and it made me wonder why a non-combative "gotcha" trap unit can move faster and tank better than a visible, expensive "bread and butter" combat unit.
Rotting organs ripping grinding, Biological discordance, Birthday equals self abhorrence, Years keep passing aging always, Mutate into vapid slugs
Empedocles
Profile Joined April 2013
United States47 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-24 20:44:38
April 24 2013 20:43 GMT
#825
On April 25 2013 05:34 TripseT wrote:

Show nested quote +

The hydralisk is lacking in several areas. Hydras have less health than widow mines. They also require a 150/150 upgrade to move as fast as them. Is anyone else blown away?



Since day one: Stalkers are 125/50 and roaches cost 75/25, without blink (150/150) and get beat by a unit that cost 50/25 less, and without blink usually get beat by roaches. Is anyone else blown away?

Either way i like these possible balance changes. Depends on how much faster oracles will be, seems interesting and i love watching burrow micro, so seeing this be reduced could make and zerg matchup more interesting and skillful in the beginning to mid game.



you cant really compare stalkers to roaches. roaches are extremely expensive in supply, also, they cannot shoot the air, they are also slow unless u upgrade them. stalkers are fast, have regenerating shields, can shoot air, can get blink, are not super supply heavy.

edit: stalkers have a range of 6. roaches a range of 4... thats probly the biggest difference of all.

i agree about burrow though i think that could be made more available by lowering the gas cost.

Another thing someone just mentioned, and i mentioned it earlier is where the heck is the corruptor rework... the corruptor right now is complete shit and with an additional caster now no one has time in the heat of battle to use corruption. either make corruption autocast or otherwise change the corruptor to be more interesting/useful and not get owned by VR's and almost all other flyers...
"The tide hastens for no man."
BlackCompany
Profile Joined August 2012
Germany8388 Posts
April 24 2013 20:49 GMT
#826
On April 25 2013 05:43 Empedocles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 25 2013 05:34 TripseT wrote:


The hydralisk is lacking in several areas. Hydras have less health than widow mines. They also require a 150/150 upgrade to move as fast as them. Is anyone else blown away?



Since day one: Stalkers are 125/50 and roaches cost 75/25, without blink (150/150) and get beat by a unit that cost 50/25 less, and without blink usually get beat by roaches. Is anyone else blown away?

Either way i like these possible balance changes. Depends on how much faster oracles will be, seems interesting and i love watching burrow micro, so seeing this be reduced could make and zerg matchup more interesting and skillful in the beginning to mid game.



you cant really compare stalkers to roaches. roaches are extremely expensive in supply, also, they cannot shoot the air, they are also slow unless u upgrade them. stalkers are fast, have regenerating shields, can shoot air, can get blink, are not super supply heavy.

edit: stalkers have a range of 6. roaches a range of 4... thats probly the biggest difference of all.

i agree about burrow though i think that could be made more available by lowering the gas cost.

Another thing someone just mentioned, and i mentioned it earlier is where the heck is the corruptor rework... the corruptor right now is complete shit and with an additional caster now no one has time in the heat of battle to use corruption. either make corruption autocast or otherwise change the corruptor to be more interesting/useful and not get owned by VR's and almost all other flyers...


So comparing WM to a hydra is totally fine, and comparing a roach to a stalker is stupid? think about your logic again please..
i kinda agree with your corruptor thoughts though, it really should get some love. maybe making corruptors attack have a slight aoe effect? it would not buff them vs collossi or small ammounts of air units but could help to fight mass phoenix or sky toss/terran in general
Loxley
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Netherlands2480 Posts
April 24 2013 21:46 GMT
#827
I don't mind widow mines doing big aoe damage, nor that they can shoot up, are always cloaked when burrowed and have good range. I think its a great addition to the game, the only thing that worries me about the WM is the cost. I see terrans pumping them out like skittles over the map. Every terran uses them in the matchup, its a no-brainer. I would like to see it be more of a tradeoff instead of a requirement for TvZ.
월요 날 재미있
i.am.weasel
Profile Joined November 2008
Sweden4 Posts
April 24 2013 21:52 GMT
#828
Interesting
TheMooseHeed
Profile Joined July 2010
United Kingdom535 Posts
April 24 2013 21:59 GMT
#829
If they are not going to nerf the WM then they need to change the tank some how. I hardly see more than 1-2 made in TvZ biomech now which is a shame. Why cant both be as good as each other
''Swarm hosts are the worst thing in the world, I mean terrorism is pretty bad but swarmhosts are worse'' IdrA on ZvZ
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
April 24 2013 22:21 GMT
#830
On April 25 2013 02:46 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 25 2013 01:50 Crankyhobo wrote:
I'm sure master Zergs can't just a-move their Terran opponent with twice the army as they could before, but I would consider that normal, and I would also understand that they're surprised and kinda frustrated to have more difficulties in that matchup than before.


I don't like the dynamic change where WM forces you to bait their attacks first - it doesn't prevent the a-move it just introduces additional micro to make the class more difficult to play - on both the bait and your detector, to what is already the most difficult class. For anyone gold and below 8/10 times they'll lose their entire army and the game with zero effort from the terran.

Whereas, of course, Gold and below Terran players never struggled with splitting Marines efficiently against Banelings (with tremendous effort from the Zerg).

Yeah. Maybe that's not the "right" and interesting type of micro, but that's something at least.
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-24 22:24:24
April 24 2013 22:24 GMT
#831
On April 25 2013 05:35 -VapidSlug- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 25 2013 05:17 TheDwf wrote:I am unimpressed (especially as your comparison is completely random).


I realized that was a bit random which is why I added a little more. I just looked up WM in the wiki and it made me wonder why a non-combative "gotcha" trap unit can move faster and tank better than a visible, expensive "bread and butter" combat unit.

The fact that they move fast is not a problem (I'm a guy who likes faster and faster units anyway) but that's true that they're surprisingly tanky haha :D
And they don't even have targetting priority equal to attacking units.

Edit: Oops sorry for the double post.
algorithm0r
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada486 Posts
April 24 2013 22:32 GMT
#832
ZvZ should be basically considered broken with the current META. Spores could be + 1000 bio and still not be relevent in ZvZ.

Any change that wants to make more infestors in the game is wrong minded. Buff hydra. That is the way to change the meta. Also maybe face up to the fact the new muta might need a nerf.
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
April 24 2013 22:35 GMT
#833
On April 25 2013 05:34 convention wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 25 2013 04:27 AnomalySC2 wrote:
On April 25 2013 04:25 Treemonkeys wrote:
On April 25 2013 04:20 Nightsz wrote:
lmfao, I don't get it.

Why does zergs want a change in their matchup? Remember what happened when infestors got buffed and suddenly ZvZ became a stale roach infestor vs roach infestor matchup into gglords vs gglords.

What they have now is WAY better than whatever they had in WoL


Yeah, I wish Blizzard would wait *at least* a few more months to a year before considering changes. I love how ZvZ is heavily based on ling/bling wars which are incredibly difficult and fun to watch. When we're getting longish games with constant aggression, leave it alone IMO.


Agreed. I think the game should develop naturally.

Strange, back in the infestor/BL days of WoL, zergs wanted the game to balance itself naturally. Now that terrans are in the same situation as zerg was in the infestor/BL days (the *only* foreigners doing really well all happen to be terran...), they want the game to develop naturally.

Only foreigner terrans are doing well, based on what? WCS EU qualis?

Because I'm pretty sure Snute and Nerchio have won some smaller tournaments in HOTS already.
scypio
Profile Joined December 2011
Poland2127 Posts
April 24 2013 22:44 GMT
#834
On April 25 2013 07:35 Bagi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 25 2013 05:34 convention wrote:
On April 25 2013 04:27 AnomalySC2 wrote:
On April 25 2013 04:25 Treemonkeys wrote:
On April 25 2013 04:20 Nightsz wrote:
lmfao, I don't get it.

Why does zergs want a change in their matchup? Remember what happened when infestors got buffed and suddenly ZvZ became a stale roach infestor vs roach infestor matchup into gglords vs gglords.

What they have now is WAY better than whatever they had in WoL


Yeah, I wish Blizzard would wait *at least* a few more months to a year before considering changes. I love how ZvZ is heavily based on ling/bling wars which are incredibly difficult and fun to watch. When we're getting longish games with constant aggression, leave it alone IMO.


Agreed. I think the game should develop naturally.

Strange, back in the infestor/BL days of WoL, zergs wanted the game to balance itself naturally. Now that terrans are in the same situation as zerg was in the infestor/BL days (the *only* foreigners doing really well all happen to be terran...), they want the game to develop naturally.

Only foreigner terrans are doing well, based on what? WCS EU qualis?

Because I'm pretty sure Snute and Nerchio have won some smaller tournaments in HOTS already.


This is a little summary of "how are the zergs doing so far":
we had one major tournament so far and Zerg won (;z: Life).
we had the EU WCS qualifiers - all the good zergs were already invited, so they couldn't win that.
we had RO32 CodeS GSL: exactly 7/14 zergs made it through (perfect!)
we had a number of weekly cups:

Nerchio wins GO4SC2 #281 (7th April) with Liquid Snute as runner-up
Hyun won ZOTAC NA #97 (13th April)
Liquid TLO, won ZOTAC EU #152 (14th April)
Liquid Snute won ZOTAC EU #153 (21st April) with Nerchio as the runner-up.
sYz wins GO4SC2 #285 (21th April) with TomikuS as runner-up

Given the results the amount of QQ is... well... zerg.
I play random | I like Hots | INnoVation | sOs | Tefel TOP1!
convention
Profile Joined October 2011
United States622 Posts
April 24 2013 22:46 GMT
#835
On April 25 2013 07:35 Bagi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 25 2013 05:34 convention wrote:
On April 25 2013 04:27 AnomalySC2 wrote:
On April 25 2013 04:25 Treemonkeys wrote:
On April 25 2013 04:20 Nightsz wrote:
lmfao, I don't get it.

Why does zergs want a change in their matchup? Remember what happened when infestors got buffed and suddenly ZvZ became a stale roach infestor vs roach infestor matchup into gglords vs gglords.

What they have now is WAY better than whatever they had in WoL


Yeah, I wish Blizzard would wait *at least* a few more months to a year before considering changes. I love how ZvZ is heavily based on ling/bling wars which are incredibly difficult and fun to watch. When we're getting longish games with constant aggression, leave it alone IMO.


Agreed. I think the game should develop naturally.

Strange, back in the infestor/BL days of WoL, zergs wanted the game to balance itself naturally. Now that terrans are in the same situation as zerg was in the infestor/BL days (the *only* foreigners doing really well all happen to be terran...), they want the game to develop naturally.

Only foreigner terrans are doing well, based on what? WCS EU qualis?

Because I'm pretty sure Snute and Nerchio have won some smaller tournaments in HOTS already.

Those smaller tournaments usually don't have an equal skill distribution to begin with, so whatever race actually has a good player will generally win. But the EU qualifiers was dominated by terrans with lots of skilled foreign players from all races, the NA qualifiers had only foreign terran getting far, so far in the EU WCS (only a very few games) have been terran dominated as well.
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
April 24 2013 22:49 GMT
#836
^ESET UK Masters was the Snute win I was thinking of, it was offline and he beat Sting 3-0 in the finals.
convention
Profile Joined October 2011
United States622 Posts
April 24 2013 22:51 GMT
#837
On April 25 2013 07:44 scypio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 25 2013 07:35 Bagi wrote:
On April 25 2013 05:34 convention wrote:
On April 25 2013 04:27 AnomalySC2 wrote:
On April 25 2013 04:25 Treemonkeys wrote:
On April 25 2013 04:20 Nightsz wrote:
lmfao, I don't get it.

Why does zergs want a change in their matchup? Remember what happened when infestors got buffed and suddenly ZvZ became a stale roach infestor vs roach infestor matchup into gglords vs gglords.

What they have now is WAY better than whatever they had in WoL


Yeah, I wish Blizzard would wait *at least* a few more months to a year before considering changes. I love how ZvZ is heavily based on ling/bling wars which are incredibly difficult and fun to watch. When we're getting longish games with constant aggression, leave it alone IMO.


Agreed. I think the game should develop naturally.

Strange, back in the infestor/BL days of WoL, zergs wanted the game to balance itself naturally. Now that terrans are in the same situation as zerg was in the infestor/BL days (the *only* foreigners doing really well all happen to be terran...), they want the game to develop naturally.

Only foreigner terrans are doing well, based on what? WCS EU qualis?

Because I'm pretty sure Snute and Nerchio have won some smaller tournaments in HOTS already.


This is a little summary of "how are the zergs doing so far":
we had one major tournament so far and Zerg won (;z: Life).
we had the EU WCS qualifiers - all the good zergs were already invited, so they couldn't win that.
we had RO32 CodeS GSL: exactly 7/14 zergs made it through (perfect!)
we had a number of weekly cups:

Nerchio wins GO4SC2 #281 (7th April) with Liquid Snute as runner-up
Hyun won ZOTAC NA #97 (13th April)
Liquid TLO, won ZOTAC EU #152 (14th April)
Liquid Snute won ZOTAC EU #153 (21st April) with Nerchio as the runner-up.
sYz wins GO4SC2 #285 (21th April) with TomikuS as runner-up

Given the results the amount of QQ is... well... zerg.

The original point was that foreign terrans are doing well. Those very minor cups had what other high level players in it? Also, why not include every single weekly cup, instead of a total of 5 weekly cups? My point still stands, in the tournaments so far, the only foreigners to get far have been terran. Look at the EU qualifer (completely terran dominated), the NA qualifier which had only foreign terrans getting far, and so far the EU WCS (small amount of games) has had terrans doing very well.
Bagi
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6799 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-24 22:55:03
April 24 2013 22:53 GMT
#838
On April 25 2013 07:46 convention wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 25 2013 07:35 Bagi wrote:
On April 25 2013 05:34 convention wrote:
On April 25 2013 04:27 AnomalySC2 wrote:
On April 25 2013 04:25 Treemonkeys wrote:
On April 25 2013 04:20 Nightsz wrote:
lmfao, I don't get it.

Why does zergs want a change in their matchup? Remember what happened when infestors got buffed and suddenly ZvZ became a stale roach infestor vs roach infestor matchup into gglords vs gglords.

What they have now is WAY better than whatever they had in WoL


Yeah, I wish Blizzard would wait *at least* a few more months to a year before considering changes. I love how ZvZ is heavily based on ling/bling wars which are incredibly difficult and fun to watch. When we're getting longish games with constant aggression, leave it alone IMO.


Agreed. I think the game should develop naturally.

Strange, back in the infestor/BL days of WoL, zergs wanted the game to balance itself naturally. Now that terrans are in the same situation as zerg was in the infestor/BL days (the *only* foreigners doing really well all happen to be terran...), they want the game to develop naturally.

Only foreigner terrans are doing well, based on what? WCS EU qualis?

Because I'm pretty sure Snute and Nerchio have won some smaller tournaments in HOTS already.

Those smaller tournaments usually don't have an equal skill distribution to begin with, so whatever race actually has a good player will generally win. But the EU qualifiers was dominated by terrans with lots of skilled foreign players from all races, the NA qualifiers had only foreign terran getting far, so far in the EU WCS (only a very few games) have been terran dominated as well.

WCS NA quali only had one high profile foreigner playing, who happened to be terran.

WCS EU groups, a KR terran advancing and todays games.

So basically it's just the EU qualifiers, which didn't have most of the good Z/P players since they were already invited.

Edit: Btw, your original words were that *only* terrans are doing well. His post is a perfectly reasonable response to it.
scypio
Profile Joined December 2011
Poland2127 Posts
April 24 2013 22:54 GMT
#839
On April 25 2013 07:46 convention wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 25 2013 07:35 Bagi wrote:
On April 25 2013 05:34 convention wrote:
On April 25 2013 04:27 AnomalySC2 wrote:
On April 25 2013 04:25 Treemonkeys wrote:
On April 25 2013 04:20 Nightsz wrote:
lmfao, I don't get it.

Why does zergs want a change in their matchup? Remember what happened when infestors got buffed and suddenly ZvZ became a stale roach infestor vs roach infestor matchup into gglords vs gglords.

What they have now is WAY better than whatever they had in WoL


Yeah, I wish Blizzard would wait *at least* a few more months to a year before considering changes. I love how ZvZ is heavily based on ling/bling wars which are incredibly difficult and fun to watch. When we're getting longish games with constant aggression, leave it alone IMO.


Agreed. I think the game should develop naturally.

Strange, back in the infestor/BL days of WoL, zergs wanted the game to balance itself naturally. Now that terrans are in the same situation as zerg was in the infestor/BL days (the *only* foreigners doing really well all happen to be terran...), they want the game to develop naturally.

Only foreigner terrans are doing well, based on what? WCS EU qualis?

Because I'm pretty sure Snute and Nerchio have won some smaller tournaments in HOTS already.

Those smaller tournaments usually don't have an equal skill distribution to begin with, so whatever race actually has a good player will generally win. But the EU qualifiers was dominated by terrans with lots of skilled foreign players from all races, the NA qualifiers had only foreign terran getting far, so far in the EU WCS (only a very few games) have been terran dominated as well.


How long are you going to disregard the fact, that all the good zergs in EU WCS were already invited so only a few could compete in the qualifier?

In WCS EU we had two zergs compete... Slivko (foreinger rank #46 by aligulac) lost to Korean T ForGG and Sase (rank #32).

Bly (#17) lost a group with two highest ranked foreign terrans (#1 - Lucifron, #6 - Happy). Favored players won. Not surprise really, is it?
I play random | I like Hots | INnoVation | sOs | Tefel TOP1!
Deleted User 26513
Profile Joined February 2007
2376 Posts
April 24 2013 22:59 GMT
#840
Just to get this straight :
"We're currently thinking of trying out a couple changes just on a balance test map in a couple weeks or so. We're not looking to do any major changes because the game is in a fairly solid state but just wanted to give a heads up on our current thinking in order to get your feedback."

Means : We will make this changes no matter what. Your feedback doesn't matter.

The changes are kinda cool.
I'm not sure about the spores tho. Yeah they can do high dmg, but that doesn't change the fact that mutas can just avoid them... And as long as you are not losing mutas they will be at full HP in no time.
Mutas have too much life if you ask me. Now when they regenerate like crazy why not nerf the HP ? In their current state Mutalisks are way too good in straight fight...
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