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On April 25 2013 18:05 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 17:59 Sissors wrote:On April 25 2013 16:37 BerthaG wrote:
Change to make : make mine stupid: I explain: when you see a mine borrow on your mineral line you can let half mining and put one prob over the mine, you can think ok the mine will target the closest.... Wrong the mine will ignore your closest prob and shoot for maximum damage WTF ? I am 99% sure this is just not true. When the mine burrows it will pick a target. I am fairly certain that is the closest target which has the highest priority of the targets in its range (so for example unburrowed mines or idle workers have lower priority than a marine), and isn't already targeted by another widow mine. So what happened probably in your case was that it already picked a target before you put one probe near as target practise, and just shot its initial target. But it won't calculate which unit it should attack to do max damage afaik. Look here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Widow_Mine"The target of mines can be set manually (by right clicking)" The burrowed mine actually can be microed and point to a nice clump of probes instead the bait.
I am aware of that, although I got the idea from the person I replied on he (/she) thought that a widow mine will automatically target the largest clump of units. But maybe I was reading something that wasn't there. (Edit: reread it, that was indeed what the poster meant, that widow mine automatically would target the largest clump of units).
Anyway regardless, manually targetting should stay. It already barely ever is realistic to use, and more micro potential is better generally.
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What I find the most worrying is that there is no word about hellbats. From my understanding no one likes the unit at the moment. TvT has turned out into a hellbat dropfestival and its stupidly strong in other matchups too. The hellbat is just way too strong and everyone commonly agrees but no word from Blizzard. They are delusional lately.
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On April 25 2013 17:59 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 16:37 BerthaG wrote:
Change to make : make mine stupid: I explain: when you see a mine borrow on your mineral line you can let half mining and put one prob over the mine, you can think ok the mine will target the closest.... Wrong the mine will ignore your closest prob and shoot for maximum damage WTF ? I am 99% sure this is just not true. When the mine burrows it will pick a target. I am fairly certain that is the closest target which has the highest priority of the targets in its range (so for example unburrowed mines or idle workers have lower priority than a marine), and isn't already targeted by another widow mine. So what happened probably in your case was that it already picked a target before you put one probe near as target practise, and just shot its initial target. But it won't calculate which unit it should attack to do max damage afaik.
I will look the replay to see if he manually target it. I forgot to check that.
But i am 100% that the prob was not targeted first i had a quick reaction and my prob stayed more than 2 secondes on the mine without being targeted.
But nevermind i will have a look on my replay, moreover i saw the same thing on minigun stream.
And yes I meant that widow mine automatically would target the largest clump of units on my first post.
I found that : It will not automatically target hallucinations or changelings WTF that not logical ! Or it has detection or not.
I will understant if there is a touret or raven then the mine know that is hallucination but without detection it should attack it.
It will give the possibility for P to mouve forward without slow obs
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What I find the most worrying is that there is no word about hellbats. From my understanding no one likes the unit at the moment. TvT has turned out into a hellbat dropfestival and its stupidly strong in other matchups too. The hellbat is just way too strong and everyone commonly agrees but no word from Blizzard. They are delusional lately.
Weird, since I don't see that in my TvTs. I don't use hellbat drops in tvt and majority of my opponents doesn't either. Those who do are imo generally not a problem to deflect. Well of course sometimes you fuck up, but the same happens with for example hellion drops.
If hellbats get nerfed vs toss then the last thing mech had going for it compared to wol (and with a whole bunch of toss boosts vs mech) is gone. Only matchup where it might be a problem is TvZ, but imo it is too early to tell. For sure no large nerf is required. Possibly you could do something like lowering damage vs light and let them be affected by (a cheaper) blue flame upgrade (and also then make transformation servos cheaper).
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On April 25 2013 18:15 JazVM wrote:
What I find the most worrying is that there is no word about hellbats. From my understanding no one likes the unit at the moment. TvT has turned out into a hellbat dropfestival and its stupidly strong in other matchups too. The hellbat is just way too strong and everyone commonly agrees but no word from Blizzard. They are delusional lately.
You shouldn't attempt to speak for everyone with your personal opinion. That doesn't contribute to the discussion; instead of excessive hyperbole and anecdotes and trying to speak for everyone (a lot of people disagree with you) try making a logical argument as to why you think the hellbat is too strong relative to other tier 2.5 units.
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On April 25 2013 18:15 JazVM wrote:
What I find the most worrying is that there is no word about hellbats. From my understanding no one likes the unit at the moment. TvT has turned out into a hellbat dropfestival and its stupidly strong in other matchups too. The hellbat is just way too strong and everyone commonly agrees but no word from Blizzard. They are delusional lately.
i disagree, with the medivac cargo nerf hellbat drops are much less common in tvt. Although some cheesy players now open with 2 medivacs and 4 hellbat drop in tvt but its easy to defend if you know they are 1 base cheese. Later in the game i prefer 4 blueflame hellions rather then 2 hellbats personally.
also why buffing oracles? if toss opens with 1-2 oracles they can kill 10 scvs easy even if there is a turret... Like vikings would have a much harder time taking them down.
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On April 25 2013 18:15 JazVM wrote:
What I find the most worrying is that there is no word about hellbats. From my understanding no one likes the unit at the moment. TvT has turned out into a hellbat dropfestival and its stupidly strong in other matchups too. The hellbat is just way too strong and everyone commonly agrees but no word from Blizzard. They are delusional lately.
Well it is not that bad. At least we found out Korean barbecue is the best barbecue in the world :D
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I would love to see the following:
Hellbat nerf incorporated with the medivac (though I don't want the medivac nerfed)
Ultralisk DPS lowered, or at least armor lowered by 1, prefer DPS lowered.
MSC nerf, either in how fast it builds... or most favorably nerf time warp.
The spore buff is a small (still not enough) modification for ZvZ, though. WoL ZvZ was much better, but at least it's a proper step forward. This is probably the only change I can 100% agree with that needs a balance change.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On April 25 2013 19:12 SniXSniPe wrote:
I would love to see the following:
Hellbat nerf incorporated with the medivac (though I don't want the medivac nerfed)
Ultralisk DPS lowered, or at least armor lowered by 1, prefer DPS lowered.
MSC nerf, either in how fast it builds... or most favorably nerf time warp.
The spore buff is a small (still not enough) modification for ZvZ, though. WoL ZvZ was much better, but at least it's a proper step forward. This is probably the only change I can 100% agree with that needs a balance change.
Hellbat nerf isn't needed, Ultralisk DPS isn't bad enough do deserve a nerf, get more marauders, I haven't seen any problems with MsC yet.. o.0
Only thing I could see being needed right now is a change to ZvZ that makes mutas viable but not the only go to option, that isn't really happening right now.
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On April 25 2013 18:42 EleanorRIgby wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2013 18:15 JazVM wrote:
What I find the most worrying is that there is no word about hellbats. From my understanding no one likes the unit at the moment. TvT has turned out into a hellbat dropfestival and its stupidly strong in other matchups too. The hellbat is just way too strong and everyone commonly agrees but no word from Blizzard. They are delusional lately. i disagree, with the medivac cargo nerf hellbat drops are much less common in tvt. Although some cheesy players now open with 2 medivacs and 4 hellbat drop in tvt but its easy to defend if you know they are 1 base cheese. Later in the game i prefer 4 blueflame hellions rather then 2 hellbats personally. also why buffing oracles? if toss opens with 1-2 oracles they can kill 10 scvs easy even if there is a turret... Like vikings would have a much harder time taking them down.
To put it into perspective, opening with 2 oracles is basically same gas investment as opening 2 cloaked banshees. If you don't get *at least* 10 worker kills with 2 cloaked bashees, you are really far behind. So if protoss opens 2 oracles, he better be getting at least 10 worker kills or terran can just walk across the map and kill him. Honestly, oracles needed a buff to be not such an all-in investment to build a few in the mid game.
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On April 25 2013 18:25 BerthaG wrote:
I will look the replay to see if he manually target it. I forgot to check that.
But i am 100% that the prob was not targeted first i had a quick reaction and my prob stayed more than 2 secondes on the mine without being targeted.
But nevermind i will have a look on my replay, moreover i saw the same thing on minigun stream.
And yes I meant that widow mine automatically would target the largest clump of units on my first post.
Wrong.
I will understant if there is a touret or raven then the mine know that is hallucination but without detection it should attack it.
It will give the possibility for P to mouve forward without slow obs
Mines do attack Hallucinations if you don't have detection. If you have it, they ignore hallucinated units.
All units ignore Changelings (except those which are able to kill it from a long range before it transforms, like Tanks and Tempests), why should the Mine be any different?
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Nerf hellbats in any drastic manner and mech dies completely.
If you have to nerf something terran, it should be the medivac. Nerf bio, promote mech.
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I had this idea: what if energy became fuel for Terran? Medivacs use 30 fuel every time they boost and healing costs fuel. So repairing and refueling takes away both gas and minerals. The rub is that SCV's can add fuel to Medivacs which promotes actually repairing them. Also refuel banshee's or ravens.
This may be kind of a dumb idea but I watch so many games and stuff never literally ever gets repaired. Even stuff with 20hp is allowed to die. It would be cool to see Terran want to repair its units again, to me anyway, looks more realistic.
I think lots of MU's are totally dead or dying already from a "fun to watch" perspective we need lots of nerfs and a couple buffs.
Buff Hydra for ZvZ, end Muta wars
Nerf Medivac for TvZ end dropping all damn day so boring now - possibly make mines unmedivacable
I hate to say it but maybe buff tanks and nerf marines =/ Maybe allow tanks to shoot air. Marines can be literally made all game long and win games, seems really stupid to me.
I like Protoss ATM buffing Oracle might be enough to push them into interesting places.
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I feel like an energy upgrade to oracles or energy cost reduction to revelation would be a more useful buff to oracles.
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Biggest problem with oracles is their cost, reduce cost to 100/100, increase build time a little and take it from there.
They are currently too expensive and no one is gonna build them when Protoss is desperate for Gas for Colossus and Templar which is required mid to late game.
Hellbats and mines are fine, no nerfs required for these except to stop Medivac healing
HOTS is pretty well balanced, although i do think Protoss got he short end of the stick as to the new units, they simply add nothing at all to gameplay and are stuck with WOL tactics except if rare conditions
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I'm fairly convinced that mines would be fine if zerg mobile detection was better. The unit itself isn't that good when people have detection, but scans and observers are so much more useful as anti mine tools. I would love to see a detection buff, rather than a mine nerf.
Still haven't voted on the proposed changes though, not sure any of them are quite right, will have to see.
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On April 25 2013 20:05 TheDwf wrote:
All units ignore Changelings (except those which are able to kill it from a long range before it transforms, like Tanks and Tempests), why should the Mine be any different?
To be precise it is not true: burrowed mines do shot on non-transformed changeling (and the changeling does not transform if it does not see the mine). Like other units, mine consider transformed changeling as a friendly unit. I wonder if it is the same with cloaked banshee.
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On April 25 2013 20:40 Bagi wrote:
Nerf hellbats in any drastic manner and mech dies completely.
If you have to nerf something terran, it should be the medivac. Nerf bio, promote mech.
Hopefully they wont touch the medivac imo. If there is a problem, give the other races better defenses against it.
On the hellbat, it really frustrates me when people suggest a complete nerf to hellbats. The hellbat itself is fine and I have atleast yet to see anyone have any real issues with it in a straight up fight. It is strong and beats slings/zlots, but that is it's job, and just forces the p/z to micro against it(aswell as bio terran, but yer). If there is a problem it is with hellbat drops(and note that I atleast feel that hellbat drops in the lategame are fine), so people that keep qqing about hellbats and want a global nerf to them, I very much doubt very many people agree with you on that front. I think it'd be a lot more productive to suggest nerfs to early hellbat drops rather, as I feel a lot of people can get onboard with that.
I've suggested it before here and many other places, they just need to nerf the initial dmg of hellbats, and make blueflame effect them again(to up the dmg to current dmg). I'd also suggest reducing both hellion upgrades to 100/100 so they actually get used on a more consistant basis. It'd reduce the effectiveness of early drops(as you neither have time nor tech lab to research blue flame) but keep them strong later on.
On April 26 2013 03:32 Iyerbeth wrote:
I'm fairly convinced that mines would be fine if zerg mobile detection was better. The unit itself isn't that good when people have detection, but scans and observers are so much more useful as anti mine tools. I would love to see a detection buff, rather than a mine nerf.
Still haven't voted on the proposed changes though, not sure any of them are quite right, will have to see.
Scans are _terrible_ against mines. If the opponent is going bio, it is a win if the terran uses scan to kill the mine and any unit killed is just gravy. 270 minerals vs 75/25, I'm good with that.
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The only change I would really like to see is a blink stalker all in nerf! The oracle change sounds good to me.
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On April 26 2013 03:48 Vague wrote:
The only change I would really like to see is a blink stalker all in nerf! The oracle change sounds good to me.
Man, not another nerf to blink. At that point I would just ask them to remove its ability to blink up cliffs and give us a reasonable research time.
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