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On April 26 2013 03:40 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2013 03:32 Iyerbeth wrote:
I'm fairly convinced that mines would be fine if zerg mobile detection was better. The unit itself isn't that good when people have detection, but scans and observers are so much more useful as anti mine tools. I would love to see a detection buff, rather than a mine nerf.
Still haven't voted on the proposed changes though, not sure any of them are quite right, will have to see. Scans are _terrible_ against mines. If the opponent is going bio, it is a win if the terran uses scan to kill the mine and any unit killed is just gravy. 270 minerals vs 75/25, I'm good with that.
Well, that may work out to be true, but I mean for when trying to move through a field of multiple mines in an area, which tends to be where zerg struggle with mines whilst other races don't seem to so much. In that instance you gain both an opportunity cost and more than one mine. When a race has detection they deal with mines fairly decently it seems, and I think the Overseer is the weakest of the three options in that regard. Even the worst Zerg, when detection is in place, can deal with mines reasonably.
I guess I just worry that at the moment there are so many people who want to nerf it. Sure that'll fix the issues people are having but it'll leave Terran with a really bad unit without fixing the underlying problems which I personally don't believe are with the mine itself.
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The burrow change should be good, add some interesting stuff to the game. The oracle is a garbage unit and needs to be totally transformed, all it does is kill a few probes every few games and then vanishes from gameplay, its retarded. Reapers are lame too, they need some midgame utility...
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On April 26 2013 04:08 Inimic wrote:
The burrow change should be good, add some interesting stuff to the game. The oracle is a garbage unit and needs to be totally transformed, all it does is kill a few probes every few games and then vanishes from gameplay, its retarded. Reapers are lame too, they need some midgame utility...
The sad thing about your comment on the Oracle, is that it is one of the few units with micro potential for protoss. Voidrays, zealots, immortals, colossi, and tempests all have about as much micro potential as a thor. And we all know that terrans hate that unit for being so clunky in their otherwise very microable compositions. There is a reason why every TvT is a "must watch" and every PvP is a "don't bother" or occasionally an "if you have time." It's because micro potential adds tons of strategical options, and makes for interesting and diverse games.
If both players in a TvT go for the same build, you still have no idea what will happen. But if it's a PvP, you pretty much know from what tech path they choose how the game will play out. That's because Protoss has been designed for strategies based around their build orders. And instead of having microable units, they get warp in (which only applies to their gateway units), which is a one time strategical decision about where to have those units appear. Once they warp in, there aren't many interesting choices you can make with them anymore. They are designed to be too clunky and slow to have those options.
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I agree with the user who suggested making burrow free on Lair tech. The problem with burrow isn't necessarily the cost, it's just there's not much utility with the skill. Sure you can prevent bases/bane-mine play, but barring some extreme number change, there's no real point to prioritize getting the upgrade.
Burrow upon Lair could open up some aggressive timings for Zerg and allow for defensive banelings. I don't think it'd be too broken (you can always re-adjust the cost for Lair) as it's not early enough to where opponents are forced into certain build orders.
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On April 26 2013 03:28 Topdoller wrote:
Biggest problem with oracles is their cost, reduce cost to 100/100, increase build time a little and take it from there.
They are currently too expensive and no one is gonna build them when Protoss is desperate for Gas for Colossus and Templar which is required mid to late game.
Hellbats and mines are fine, no nerfs required for these except to stop Medivac healing
HOTS is pretty well balanced, although i do think Protoss got he short end of the stick as to the new units, they simply add nothing at all to gameplay and are stuck with WOL tactics except if rare conditions
Yea pretty much. DK even said that they were too gas intensive to tech switch fast enough or get upgrade timings out. I don't see how a speed increase is going to make it less "gas engaging" as he put it. 25-50gas reduction would be the most targeted choice, and since you rarely make more than 2-3 Oracles, that's basically a small 100 gas the entire game that won't balloon out of control.
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Buff stalker! Nerf void ray and immortal! This will "fix" protoss a bit. Stalkers are so damn expensive for being so worthless at fighting, and they're cool and fast, so..
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On April 26 2013 06:48 neptunusfisk wrote:
Buff stalker! Nerf void ray and immortal! This will "fix" protoss a bit. Stalkers are so damn expensive for being so worthless at fighting, and they're cool and fast, so..
Need to be careful with units that can attack both air and ground, have shields that regenerate, can blink, and aren't slow. Otherwise they'd just be too strong when massed; not saying they couldn't be countered, but it would wreck protoss diversity.
yeah reapers should get a building-attack upgrade for later on, maybe even a speed/health/attack-speed boost for the late game (although it would have to be on like the fusion core instead of tech lab which would be kinda weird.
Burrow on lair does sound good, although in my opinion it should maybe make lair 200/150 then.
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On April 26 2013 06:48 neptunusfisk wrote:
Buff stalker! Nerf void ray and immortal! This will "fix" protoss a bit. Stalkers are so damn expensive for being so worthless at fighting, and they're cool and fast, so..
would mean 3 supply stalkers in the end though, because mass stalkers get problematic already at some points in different matchups. Would go down the same path as the Roachie and become useless for the lategame. So they will introduce a unit that spawns 2 super Stalkers in LotV.
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Some pretty stupid comments in this thread.
Such as:
"Burrow is bad so why buff it?"
...yeah. How do you people even get accounts here?
"Yay for ZvZ fix"
...which doesn't do anything to actually fix the matchup. Spores already do the job. It's not the static that's the problem - and I'm speaking as a player who tries to do non-muta styles. It's their map control and speed and versatility.
Making spores better will not fix the metagame, but will lead to ridiculous situations where someone has outplayed you hard and yet can't crack your base because 3 spores can hold off 100 muta supply.
Dear Blizzard: Stop being afraid to change the muta. You notice how it's NOT what it was in WoL already? Mass muta vs Protoss is essentially dead, and most zergs have figured out to make 16 mutas and that's it in TvZ because lolmines.
Suggestion: Make mutas take 12 sec longer to build but buff their health by 15 while giving hydras 10 more HP. This will extend timing windows in ZvZ and maintain the same shots to kill for both units, while giving hydras and mutas a small but needed buff in the other matches.
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On April 26 2013 19:57 DaemonX wrote:
Suggestion: Make mutas take 12 sec longer to build but buff their health by 15 while giving hydras 10 more HP. This will extend timing windows in ZvZ and maintain the same shots to kill for both units, while giving hydras and mutas a small but needed buff in the other matches.
Love how "+12,5% hit points" (or "+1-3 armor" for the last gold nugget) somehow translate into "small buffs" in your eyes.
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lol @ some of the suggestions...
Some other ones are pretty good.
I'm telling you that fixing the corruptor will go a long way in fixing Z in general. Currently, you cant even use corruptors to beat a player going muta's which is a bit rediculous if you think about it. The corruptor needs to be redesigned, im not exactly sure how but it needs a new or modified ability. Maybe an autocast corruption would be cool. At least then it would actually get used. Zerg currently has too many casters/abilities for anyone to ever time to use corruption in the heat of battle in a meanfull way.
Also, as someone had mentioned, Z has no aoe anti air except for the fungal grouth which has been severly nerfed. Again, not sure how we could fix that but some suggestions would be great.
I wouldnt have an issue with a "slight" buff to hydras although i must say they currently are not UP in any matchup except maybe zvz. maybe a +bio damage would be useful im not sure.
The problem with hellbats is that they do insane damage to light right from the get go. Attacking hellbats with lings is a complete joke, even with overwelming numbers, lings just utterly melt against a hellbat or 2. A small nerf to hellbat +light damage i think is very appropriate at this point, will help with the hellbat drops too.
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burrow with less costs would probably make early baneling-mines too strong
buff spores even more is not right in my opinion, the problem with mutaplay in zvz is the mapcontrole
it is very hard for the player who is going groundunits to get a 3rd base up and running, a hydralisk aa buff would probably be the better choice
the oracle is fast enough i would say
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On April 23 2013 09:32 Dr.sin wrote:
ZvZ needs a fix because the MuTa wars are very Strange and unpredictable. Going from something as volatile as ling/BlinG into MuTa races just doesn't seeM like a good match up.
oracle SpeeD increase seems a little Extreme. They're already pretty fast and can do a lot of damage. Making them a bit more useful in an army composition could be interesting and make them more than just a mineral harassment gimmick.
I like the idea of making burrow more accessible. Obviously mines will get fixed.
I agree on all fronts Here. ZvZ is incredibly volatile, always has been. We had it more tamed down at the end of WoL, because early game b/ling was getting a little easier to gauge. I do wish that roach/hyrda/infestor from WoL would morph into HotS because the introduction of infestor, vs swarm host would be cool to see, seeing as how the infested terrans got nerf slapped across the face, and locusts receive upgrades, I think they may be the better engagement unit and infestors be more for harass or added micro. Seeing a pro do roach/hydra/infestor/swarm host and late game adding vipers, now THAT'd be cool.
And I don't agree with the oracle change. Just like Mutas, oracles have a certain amount of time on the field in PvZ and then they need to be left alone. There's already speed to warp prisms that can drop DTs very fast in mutltiple areas. Please don't make Skytoss any better.
I also think maybe the discussion of hydras having a slight bio damage increase would be reasonable. It'd help in ZvT when a players goes roaches to try and help against the explosive widow mine damage and the hydras could still have enough bio damage in the major battle against mmm. It wouldn't be a better composition than b/ling/ultra, because you can do well with good mine micro, but it'd make roach/hydra/infestor at least a little more viable.
And the mildly sublte comment, but very well known idea, I agree with as well. Obviously mines will get fixed.
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I feel like buffing spores against mutas is not the right answer. I´ve been wondering what would happen if we split Hyrdalisk attack to separate attacks against ground and air, and give the air attack +bio damage.
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On April 26 2013 04:40 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2013 04:08 Inimic wrote:
The burrow change should be good, add some interesting stuff to the game. The oracle is a garbage unit and needs to be totally transformed, all it does is kill a few probes every few games and then vanishes from gameplay, its retarded. Reapers are lame too, they need some midgame utility... The sad thing about your comment on the Oracle, is that it is one of the few units with micro potential for protoss. Voidrays, zealots, immortals, colossi, and tempests all have about as much micro potential as a thor. And we all know that terrans hate that unit for being so clunky in their otherwise very microable compositions. There is a reason why every TvT is a "must watch" and every PvP is a "don't bother" or occasionally an "if you have time." It's because micro potential adds tons of strategical options, and makes for interesting and diverse games. If both players in a TvT go for the same build, you still have no idea what will happen. But if it's a PvP, you pretty much know from what tech path they choose how the game will play out. That's because Protoss has been designed for strategies based around their build orders. And instead of having microable units, they get warp in (which only applies to their gateway units), which is a one time strategical decision about where to have those units appear. Once they warp in, there aren't many interesting choices you can make with them anymore. They are designed to be too clunky and slow to have those options.
I really don't understand the Void Ray in Heart of the Swarm. I thought they wanted to add more micro to units, and instead of giving the Void Ray an interesting ability, they just make you press a button and you instantly start dealing more damage. They took the original ability for the unit and just removed the skill it took to get/keep a charge going.
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On April 28 2013 02:08 Altsa wrote:
I feel like buffing spores against mutas is not the right answer. I´ve been wondering what would happen if we split Hyrdalisk attack to separate attacks against ground and air, and give the air attack +bio damage.
This is exactly what I've been thinking for a while. I can't agree enough, its the best way to balance the match up imo.
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On April 28 2013 02:13 Azhrei16 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2013 04:40 Fig wrote:On April 26 2013 04:08 Inimic wrote:
The burrow change should be good, add some interesting stuff to the game. The oracle is a garbage unit and needs to be totally transformed, all it does is kill a few probes every few games and then vanishes from gameplay, its retarded. Reapers are lame too, they need some midgame utility... The sad thing about your comment on the Oracle, is that it is one of the few units with micro potential for protoss. Voidrays, zealots, immortals, colossi, and tempests all have about as much micro potential as a thor. And we all know that terrans hate that unit for being so clunky in their otherwise very microable compositions. There is a reason why every TvT is a "must watch" and every PvP is a "don't bother" or occasionally an "if you have time." It's because micro potential adds tons of strategical options, and makes for interesting and diverse games. If both players in a TvT go for the same build, you still have no idea what will happen. But if it's a PvP, you pretty much know from what tech path they choose how the game will play out. That's because Protoss has been designed for strategies based around their build orders. And instead of having microable units, they get warp in (which only applies to their gateway units), which is a one time strategical decision about where to have those units appear. Once they warp in, there aren't many interesting choices you can make with them anymore. They are designed to be too clunky and slow to have those options. I really don't understand the Void Ray in Heart of the Swarm. I thought they wanted to add more micro to units, and instead of giving the Void Ray an interesting ability, they just make you press a button and you instantly start dealing more damage. They took the original ability for the unit and just removed the skill it took to get/keep a charge going.
charge mechanic did not work properly.
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On April 26 2013 04:06 Iyerbeth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2013 03:40 Zarahtra wrote:On April 26 2013 03:32 Iyerbeth wrote:
I'm fairly convinced that mines would be fine if zerg mobile detection was better. The unit itself isn't that good when people have detection, but scans and observers are so much more useful as anti mine tools. I would love to see a detection buff, rather than a mine nerf.
Still haven't voted on the proposed changes though, not sure any of them are quite right, will have to see. Scans are _terrible_ against mines. If the opponent is going bio, it is a win if the terran uses scan to kill the mine and any unit killed is just gravy. 270 minerals vs 75/25, I'm good with that. Well, that may work out to be true, but I mean for when trying to move through a field of multiple mines in an area, which tends to be where zerg struggle with mines whilst other races don't seem to so much. In that instance you gain both an opportunity cost and more than one mine. When a race has detection they deal with mines fairly decently it seems, and I think the Overseer is the weakest of the three options in that regard. Even the worst Zerg, when detection is in place, can deal with mines reasonably. I guess I just worry that at the moment there are so many people who want to nerf it. Sure that'll fix the issues people are having but it'll leave Terran with a really bad unit without fixing the underlying problems which I personally don't believe are with the mine itself.
Agreed , in masters i don't have that many problems with mines at all to be completely honest. Like you said when detection is in place its not a problem and there should be know reason not to have your overseers in front of your army . Mines are for controlling space is all , seems zergs need to learn to take it back .
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On April 28 2013 02:15 FirstGear wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 02:08 Altsa wrote:
I feel like buffing spores against mutas is not the right answer. I´ve been wondering what would happen if we split Hyrdalisk attack to separate attacks against ground and air, and give the air attack +bio damage. This is exactly what I've been thinking for a while. I can't agree enough, its the best way to balance the match up imo.
What about the other matchups though , vs other air units from the other races I feel that they do really well , what they could do is make infestors fungal a slow instead so the mutas that get hit won't be as fast allowing you to pick them off and add back insta cast for fungal.
Edit: This will also reward you for splitting your mutas while also allowing mutas to escape if they do get fungaled , I feel this would add a new dynamic to the ZvZ matchup while allowing for different styles of play .
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On April 26 2013 06:18 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2013 03:28 Topdoller wrote:
Biggest problem with oracles is their cost, reduce cost to 100/100, increase build time a little and take it from there.
They are currently too expensive and no one is gonna build them when Protoss is desperate for Gas for Colossus and Templar which is required mid to late game.
Hellbats and mines are fine, no nerfs required for these except to stop Medivac healing
HOTS is pretty well balanced, although i do think Protoss got he short end of the stick as to the new units, they simply add nothing at all to gameplay and are stuck with WOL tactics except if rare conditions Yea pretty much. DK even said that they were too gas intensive to tech switch fast enough or get upgrade timings out. I don't see how a speed increase is going to make it less "gas engaging" as he put it. 25-50gas reduction would be the most targeted choice, and since you rarely make more than 2-3 Oracles, that's basically a small 100 gas the entire game that won't balloon out of control.
I don't think them being expensive is a problem , if they are faster and you get more use out of them they pay for themselves. reducing their gas cost could cause a host of problems such as getting too many oracles out for terran to deal with early , also causing problems for zerg in the same regard. While making them faster disrupts the enemy a lot better , without adding to balance issues.
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EPT
