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On April 28 2013 02:18 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 02:15 FirstGear wrote:On April 28 2013 02:08 Altsa wrote:
I feel like buffing spores against mutas is not the right answer. I´ve been wondering what would happen if we split Hyrdalisk attack to separate attacks against ground and air, and give the air attack +bio damage. This is exactly what I've been thinking for a while. I can't agree enough, its the best way to balance the match up imo. What about the other matchups though , vs other air units from the other races I feel that they do really well , what they could do is make infestors fungal a slow instead so the mutas that get hit won't be as fast allowing you to pick them off and add back insta cast for fungal. Edit: This will also reward you for splitting your mutas while also allowing mutas to escape if they do get fungaled , I feel this would add a new dynamic to the ZvZ matchup while allowing for different styles of play .
I dont understand what you mean. It doesn't influence the other match ups at all. He suggested a separate air attack (like the thor) that does bonus to bio. That means hydras would do extra damage to mutas overlords corruptors broods and vipers. Nothing else would change.
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I really don't increasing oracle speed is the right decision right now... :/
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On April 28 2013 03:33 FirstGear wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 02:18 Shakattak wrote:On April 28 2013 02:15 FirstGear wrote:On April 28 2013 02:08 Altsa wrote:
I feel like buffing spores against mutas is not the right answer. I´ve been wondering what would happen if we split Hyrdalisk attack to separate attacks against ground and air, and give the air attack +bio damage. This is exactly what I've been thinking for a while. I can't agree enough, its the best way to balance the match up imo. What about the other matchups though , vs other air units from the other races I feel that they do really well , what they could do is make infestors fungal a slow instead so the mutas that get hit won't be as fast allowing you to pick them off and add back insta cast for fungal. Edit: This will also reward you for splitting your mutas while also allowing mutas to escape if they do get fungaled , I feel this would add a new dynamic to the ZvZ matchup while allowing for different styles of play . I dont understand what you mean. It doesn't influence the other match ups at all. He suggested a separate air attack (like the thor) that does bonus to bio. That means hydras would do extra damage to mutas overlords corruptors broods and vipers. Nothing else would change.
I see but I find it weird that there would be a separate attack for only 1 matchup.
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On April 28 2013 04:27 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 03:33 FirstGear wrote:On April 28 2013 02:18 Shakattak wrote:On April 28 2013 02:15 FirstGear wrote:On April 28 2013 02:08 Altsa wrote:
I feel like buffing spores against mutas is not the right answer. I´ve been wondering what would happen if we split Hyrdalisk attack to separate attacks against ground and air, and give the air attack +bio damage. This is exactly what I've been thinking for a while. I can't agree enough, its the best way to balance the match up imo. What about the other matchups though , vs other air units from the other races I feel that they do really well , what they could do is make infestors fungal a slow instead so the mutas that get hit won't be as fast allowing you to pick them off and add back insta cast for fungal. Edit: This will also reward you for splitting your mutas while also allowing mutas to escape if they do get fungaled , I feel this would add a new dynamic to the ZvZ matchup while allowing for different styles of play . I dont understand what you mean. It doesn't influence the other match ups at all. He suggested a separate air attack (like the thor) that does bonus to bio. That means hydras would do extra damage to mutas overlords corruptors broods and vipers. Nothing else would change. I see but I find it weird that there would be a separate attack for only 1 matchup.
It is not that different from the +shield damage on WM and the EMP doing 100 damage to shields.
Though, if that kind of stuff is done on a lot of units, it might make the game a bit hectic for new players.
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On April 28 2013 04:32 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 04:27 Shakattak wrote:On April 28 2013 03:33 FirstGear wrote:On April 28 2013 02:18 Shakattak wrote:On April 28 2013 02:15 FirstGear wrote:On April 28 2013 02:08 Altsa wrote:
I feel like buffing spores against mutas is not the right answer. I´ve been wondering what would happen if we split Hyrdalisk attack to separate attacks against ground and air, and give the air attack +bio damage. This is exactly what I've been thinking for a while. I can't agree enough, its the best way to balance the match up imo. What about the other matchups though , vs other air units from the other races I feel that they do really well , what they could do is make infestors fungal a slow instead so the mutas that get hit won't be as fast allowing you to pick them off and add back insta cast for fungal. Edit: This will also reward you for splitting your mutas while also allowing mutas to escape if they do get fungaled , I feel this would add a new dynamic to the ZvZ matchup while allowing for different styles of play . I dont understand what you mean. It doesn't influence the other match ups at all. He suggested a separate air attack (like the thor) that does bonus to bio. That means hydras would do extra damage to mutas overlords corruptors broods and vipers. Nothing else would change. I see but I find it weird that there would be a separate attack for only 1 matchup. It is not that different from the +shield damage on WM and the EMP doing 100 damage to shields. Though, if that kind of stuff is done on a lot of units, it might make the game a bit hectic for new players.
Exactly so why not change a spell caster that was the reason this muta war came about alter it so the game has different styles , if you change the infestor you can use roach hydra infestor once again without getting boned.
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Surprising lack of boostvac discussion. Terran drops really didn't need to be better than they were. They're borderline unpunishable now barring lack of attention on the Terran's part.
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On April 28 2013 04:38 Little-Chimp wrote:
Surprising lack of boostvac discussion. Terran drops really didn't need to be better than they were. They're borderline unpunishable now barring lack of attention on the Terran's part.
If it was an obvious fix then Blizzard won't touch it.
Honestly, their hesitancy to touch terran is probably because they got scared off after removing the war hound. Honestly it tells you enough about this community that there was even talk about resuscitating that unit.
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On April 28 2013 04:38 Little-Chimp wrote:
Surprising lack of boostvac discussion. Terran drops really didn't need to be better than they were. They're borderline unpunishable now barring lack of attention on the Terran's part.
Towards the end of WoL medivac drop counters were more and more figured out and optimized, and the dropping became less and less effective. They really needed a boost.
Also toss got an enormously effective drop counter in the form of planetary nexus and zerg has much faster mutas. And there is no need to 'punish' the terran, if you can just prevent him from doing significant damage with the drops he is behind anyway. (Well of course assuming you didn't invest way too much in preventing him from doing damage).
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Looking at the games going on it seems that ZvT seems fairly balanced. Maybe a tweek or two but thats pretty much it. That are TvT seem to be very exciting to watch with a variation of strategies. Even Mech seems to be viable in that matchup.
But Protoss as a race seems to be totally imbalanced. I am not talking about statistics since they are misleading. The only way for protoss to win seems to be based on timing attacks early game or somehow surviving into the late game and get both colossus and templars after which it becomes very hard to beat them.
Terran and zerg seem to have a lot to throw on them in early and mid game without it being an all-in.
I think all of this boils down to the presence of the infernal unit- the Colossus.
Unless blizzard make a big change and nerf the move speed of that thing, this race will never be balanced and will always be like this. Additionally there are just too many special purpose units which make getting them fairly risky investment.
It will be a big change and may require more buffs to other protoss units but I think in the end it will be worth it and make the race a lot more exciting to watch instead of the snooze fest that it currently is...
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On April 28 2013 04:38 Little-Chimp wrote:
Surprising lack of boostvac discussion. Terran drops really didn't need to be better than they were. They're borderline unpunishable now barring lack of attention on the Terran's part.
Zerg can still drone quite effectively , there is no reason to not build static defence which is a great for staving off drops.
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On April 28 2013 04:34 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 04:32 Mehukannu wrote:On April 28 2013 04:27 Shakattak wrote:On April 28 2013 03:33 FirstGear wrote:On April 28 2013 02:18 Shakattak wrote:On April 28 2013 02:15 FirstGear wrote:On April 28 2013 02:08 Altsa wrote:
I feel like buffing spores against mutas is not the right answer. I´ve been wondering what would happen if we split Hyrdalisk attack to separate attacks against ground and air, and give the air attack +bio damage. This is exactly what I've been thinking for a while. I can't agree enough, its the best way to balance the match up imo. What about the other matchups though , vs other air units from the other races I feel that they do really well , what they could do is make infestors fungal a slow instead so the mutas that get hit won't be as fast allowing you to pick them off and add back insta cast for fungal. Edit: This will also reward you for splitting your mutas while also allowing mutas to escape if they do get fungaled , I feel this would add a new dynamic to the ZvZ matchup while allowing for different styles of play . I dont understand what you mean. It doesn't influence the other match ups at all. He suggested a separate air attack (like the thor) that does bonus to bio. That means hydras would do extra damage to mutas overlords corruptors broods and vipers. Nothing else would change. I see but I find it weird that there would be a separate attack for only 1 matchup. It is not that different from the +shield damage on WM and the EMP doing 100 damage to shields. Though, if that kind of stuff is done on a lot of units, it might make the game a bit hectic for new players. Exactly so why not change a spell caster that was the reason this muta war came about alter it so the game has different styles , if you change the infestor you can use roach hydra infestor once again without getting boned.
I don't know how you would change the infestor though. The fungal speed nerf makes it pretty impossible to use it against mutas anyway and if you were to make it instant again it would screw up other match-ups again.
So it would just be much easier to change the hydra rather than infestor.
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On April 28 2013 05:10 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 04:34 Shakattak wrote:On April 28 2013 04:32 Mehukannu wrote:On April 28 2013 04:27 Shakattak wrote:On April 28 2013 03:33 FirstGear wrote:On April 28 2013 02:18 Shakattak wrote:On April 28 2013 02:15 FirstGear wrote:On April 28 2013 02:08 Altsa wrote:
I feel like buffing spores against mutas is not the right answer. I´ve been wondering what would happen if we split Hyrdalisk attack to separate attacks against ground and air, and give the air attack +bio damage. This is exactly what I've been thinking for a while. I can't agree enough, its the best way to balance the match up imo. What about the other matchups though , vs other air units from the other races I feel that they do really well , what they could do is make infestors fungal a slow instead so the mutas that get hit won't be as fast allowing you to pick them off and add back insta cast for fungal. Edit: This will also reward you for splitting your mutas while also allowing mutas to escape if they do get fungaled , I feel this would add a new dynamic to the ZvZ matchup while allowing for different styles of play . I dont understand what you mean. It doesn't influence the other match ups at all. He suggested a separate air attack (like the thor) that does bonus to bio. That means hydras would do extra damage to mutas overlords corruptors broods and vipers. Nothing else would change. I see but I find it weird that there would be a separate attack for only 1 matchup. It is not that different from the +shield damage on WM and the EMP doing 100 damage to shields. Though, if that kind of stuff is done on a lot of units, it might make the game a bit hectic for new players. Exactly so why not change a spell caster that was the reason this muta war came about alter it so the game has different styles , if you change the infestor you can use roach hydra infestor once again without getting boned. I don't know how you would change the infestor though. The fungal speed nerf makes it pretty impossible to use it against mutas anyway and if you were to make it instant again it would screw up other match-ups again. So it would just be much easier to change the hydra rather than infestor.
Hence why I said to finally make fungal a slow instead of the root, that way it will add micro it won't be as devastating because you can still move while still allowing you to combat mutas with hydras, slow mutas with the range on hydras will shred muta players who do not split their units. This would allow Mutas AND infestor play to be viable again.
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On April 28 2013 05:17 Shakattak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 05:10 Mehukannu wrote:On April 28 2013 04:34 Shakattak wrote:On April 28 2013 04:32 Mehukannu wrote:On April 28 2013 04:27 Shakattak wrote:On April 28 2013 03:33 FirstGear wrote:On April 28 2013 02:18 Shakattak wrote:On April 28 2013 02:15 FirstGear wrote:On April 28 2013 02:08 Altsa wrote:
I feel like buffing spores against mutas is not the right answer. I´ve been wondering what would happen if we split Hyrdalisk attack to separate attacks against ground and air, and give the air attack +bio damage. This is exactly what I've been thinking for a while. I can't agree enough, its the best way to balance the match up imo. What about the other matchups though , vs other air units from the other races I feel that they do really well , what they could do is make infestors fungal a slow instead so the mutas that get hit won't be as fast allowing you to pick them off and add back insta cast for fungal. Edit: This will also reward you for splitting your mutas while also allowing mutas to escape if they do get fungaled , I feel this would add a new dynamic to the ZvZ matchup while allowing for different styles of play . I dont understand what you mean. It doesn't influence the other match ups at all. He suggested a separate air attack (like the thor) that does bonus to bio. That means hydras would do extra damage to mutas overlords corruptors broods and vipers. Nothing else would change. I see but I find it weird that there would be a separate attack for only 1 matchup. It is not that different from the +shield damage on WM and the EMP doing 100 damage to shields. Though, if that kind of stuff is done on a lot of units, it might make the game a bit hectic for new players. Exactly so why not change a spell caster that was the reason this muta war came about alter it so the game has different styles , if you change the infestor you can use roach hydra infestor once again without getting boned. I don't know how you would change the infestor though. The fungal speed nerf makes it pretty impossible to use it against mutas anyway and if you were to make it instant again it would screw up other match-ups again. So it would just be much easier to change the hydra rather than infestor. Hence why I said to finally make fungal a slow instead of the root, that way it will add micro it won't be as devastating because you can still move while still allowing you to combat mutas with hydras, slow mutas with the range on hydras will shred muta players who do not split their units. This would allow Mutas AND infestor play to be viable again.
In the mean time destroying zvp  if i can't root voids how will I kill them. Right now the only way to kill them is to hold them on the spot while infested terrans kill them. If they are just slowed they will just move away..
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On April 28 2013 05:30 FCReverie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 05:17 Shakattak wrote:On April 28 2013 05:10 Mehukannu wrote:On April 28 2013 04:34 Shakattak wrote:On April 28 2013 04:32 Mehukannu wrote:On April 28 2013 04:27 Shakattak wrote:On April 28 2013 03:33 FirstGear wrote:On April 28 2013 02:18 Shakattak wrote:On April 28 2013 02:15 FirstGear wrote:On April 28 2013 02:08 Altsa wrote:
I feel like buffing spores against mutas is not the right answer. I´ve been wondering what would happen if we split Hyrdalisk attack to separate attacks against ground and air, and give the air attack +bio damage. This is exactly what I've been thinking for a while. I can't agree enough, its the best way to balance the match up imo. What about the other matchups though , vs other air units from the other races I feel that they do really well , what they could do is make infestors fungal a slow instead so the mutas that get hit won't be as fast allowing you to pick them off and add back insta cast for fungal. Edit: This will also reward you for splitting your mutas while also allowing mutas to escape if they do get fungaled , I feel this would add a new dynamic to the ZvZ matchup while allowing for different styles of play . I dont understand what you mean. It doesn't influence the other match ups at all. He suggested a separate air attack (like the thor) that does bonus to bio. That means hydras would do extra damage to mutas overlords corruptors broods and vipers. Nothing else would change. I see but I find it weird that there would be a separate attack for only 1 matchup. It is not that different from the +shield damage on WM and the EMP doing 100 damage to shields. Though, if that kind of stuff is done on a lot of units, it might make the game a bit hectic for new players. Exactly so why not change a spell caster that was the reason this muta war came about alter it so the game has different styles , if you change the infestor you can use roach hydra infestor once again without getting boned. I don't know how you would change the infestor though. The fungal speed nerf makes it pretty impossible to use it against mutas anyway and if you were to make it instant again it would screw up other match-ups again. So it would just be much easier to change the hydra rather than infestor. Hence why I said to finally make fungal a slow instead of the root, that way it will add micro it won't be as devastating because you can still move while still allowing you to combat mutas with hydras, slow mutas with the range on hydras will shred muta players who do not split their units. This would allow Mutas AND infestor play to be viable again. In the mean time destroying zvp if i can't root voids how will I kill them. Right now the only way to kill them is to hold them on the spot while infested terrans kill them. If they are just slowed they will just move away..
If he is moving away then he won't be attacking you! Hydras or infested terrans would be great in this situation since hydras are not affected by the charge beam.
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On April 28 2013 04:43 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 04:38 Little-Chimp wrote:
Surprising lack of boostvac discussion. Terran drops really didn't need to be better than they were. They're borderline unpunishable now barring lack of attention on the Terran's part. Towards the end of WoL medivac drop counters were more and more figured out and optimized, and the dropping became less and less effective. They really needed a boost. Also toss got an enormously effective drop counter in the form of planetary nexus and zerg has much faster mutas. And there is no need to 'punish' the terran, if you can just prevent him from doing significant damage with the drops he is behind anyway. (Well of course assuming you didn't invest way too much in preventing him from doing damage).
I think more importantly, the medivac speed boost has made the game really exciting because terrans will want to drop throughout all of HotS. Dropping in the base, while attacking a front is very exciting to watch. So they gave the races better anti-drop defense (overlord spreed from end of WoL + cannon nexus) and made drops less punishing to do. Drops are the best way to measure the skill between two players in my opinion, your multitasking vs. their multitasking. Based on the games I've been watching at dreamhack, the game actually feels mostly balanced. I like the oracle change because it adds to the protoss ability to out-multitask the other players. Spore change can't hurt, one could argue it's not enough, but it's steps to opening up other defense options against mutas.
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I think the Oracle is to much of a coin-flip now. There doesn't seem to be any micro involved like the Banshee vs Marines or Banshee trying to do damage when there is a turret in the mineral line. In addition, the gas cost is huge, slowing all other tech significantly, which is something that doesn't really work for Protoss with the reliance on splash damage (Colossi/Templar) vs marines.
I think they have to reduce the Oracle cost, reduce it's brute strength, but give it more options to be microed like terrans do with their drops and banshee's. The target would be to make it less of a coin-flip to open with tech-wise than it currently is.
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I'd like to see Blizzard gently nerf the mutalisks instead of further skewing the spore crawlers to be anti-Zerg. Maybe reducing the health regen to twice normal Zerg regen (0.5468 instead of 1) would do the trick; that way they're still super-slippery, but if you can properly engage the mutalisk pack, they'll take longer to lick their wounds.
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As a protoss I'm ok with the oracle speed increase if stalkers get a special beam that oneshots oracles.
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On April 28 2013 10:44 moon Zoose22 wrote:
I'd like to see Blizzard gently nerf the mutalisks instead of further skewing the spore crawlers to be anti-Zerg. Maybe reducing the health regen to twice normal Zerg regen (0.5468 instead of 1) would do the trick; that way they're still super-slippery, but if you can properly engage the mutalisk pack, they'll take longer to lick their wounds.
Do you, by any chance, have a pet named George?
They are trying to change how the muta is used in ZvZ only, which implies they think it is balanced in the other match ups.
It doesn't make any sense to nerf mutas.
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On April 28 2013 11:01 TheSwamp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 10:44 moon Zoose22 wrote:
I'd like to see Blizzard gently nerf the mutalisks instead of further skewing the spore crawlers to be anti-Zerg. Maybe reducing the health regen to twice normal Zerg regen (0.5468 instead of 1) would do the trick; that way they're still super-slippery, but if you can properly engage the mutalisk pack, they'll take longer to lick their wounds. Do you, by any chance, have a pet named George? They are trying to change how the muta is used in ZvZ only, which implies they think it is balanced in the other match ups. It doesn't make any sense to nerf mutas.
Blizzard may think mutas are fine in every MU but zvz however I am beginning to think the Muta into ultra and tech switching back into muta is too brutal vs P...
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EPT
