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Zerg rule finally toppled - Page 11

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Prev 1 9 10 11 12 Next All
Grovbolle
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Denmark3825 Posts
April 19 2013 19:05 GMT
#201
On April 20 2013 03:28 stelzer wrote:
wtf is this?

here are the pro winrates for hots: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E#gid=0

Here are the actual rates based on more games http://aligulac.com/results/
Lies, damned lies and statistics: http://aligulac.com
DusTerr
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
2520 Posts
April 19 2013 19:14 GMT
#202
On April 20 2013 01:31 TheBB wrote:
So turns out ForGG might not be half bad after all. :p

I saw the TL vs M results pretty late and that's the first thing that I thought too..
Tuczniak
Profile Joined September 2010
1561 Posts
April 19 2013 19:21 GMT
#203
I don't think the system is bad. It will produce good results in time.

But the big mistake was trying to tell us something about the game, and basing it on questionable top 10. You can't show people, who in fact don't care about math, results which have obvious flaws. They don't care about math or system, but they will eat you, if you show them results like that.

There may be problem with data, but the biggest problem was creating this thread. If you waited a little while and showed some better output, you would get a lot better advertisement. You don't want people to remember "the system where forGG is 4th best in the world".

All math is great and all, but in the end you need experienced mind to look at results. At least that's how it works in physics.
OrgCom
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada25 Posts
April 19 2013 19:39 GMT
#204
From reading part of the thread, it seems that your algorithm takes into account other players that a certain player has played and 'takes' points from a player for winning.

For example, if forGG has been 'french-plowing', this means his high rating shows that his skill is far above that of his opponents.

Suppose the region he's playing in is isolated, i.e. they rarely play NA or KR players, doesn't this mean there is a low correlation between forGG's rating and other KR player ratings?

It seems to say that it is much more accurate if you compare players within a region, but has more uncertainty when compared to other regions. This means that if forGG suddenly moves to Korea, his rating would take some time to stabilize again. Of course this is on the assumption that regions are isolated.
Hard work never killed anybody, but why take a chance?
Grovbolle
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Denmark3825 Posts
April 19 2013 20:04 GMT
#205
On April 20 2013 04:21 Tuczniak wrote:
I don't think the system is bad. It will produce good results in time.

But the big mistake was trying to tell us something about the game, and basing it on questionable top 10. You can't show people, who in fact don't care about math, results which have obvious flaws. They don't care about math or system, but they will eat you, if you show them results like that.

There may be problem with data, but the biggest problem was creating this thread. If you waited a little while and showed some better output, you would get a lot better advertisement. You don't want people to remember "the system where forGG is 4th best in the world".

All math is great and all, but in the end you need experienced mind to look at results. At least that's how it works in physics.

Agreed, we hoped to show off the potential of the site and ofc stats doesn't equal the truth. It is just a basis for discussion, I guess most people aren't prepared to think for themselves.

To guy above this post: 100 % exactly correct.
Lies, damned lies and statistics: http://aligulac.com
Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
April 19 2013 20:30 GMT
#206
On April 20 2013 04:39 OrgCom wrote:
From reading part of the thread, it seems that your algorithm takes into account other players that a certain player has played and 'takes' points from a player for winning.

For example, if forGG has been 'french-plowing', this means his high rating shows that his skill is far above that of his opponents.

Suppose the region he's playing in is isolated, i.e. they rarely play NA or KR players, doesn't this mean there is a low correlation between forGG's rating and other KR player ratings?

It seems to say that it is much more accurate if you compare players within a region, but has more uncertainty when compared to other regions. This means that if forGG suddenly moves to Korea, his rating would take some time to stabilize again. Of course this is on the assumption that regions are isolated.


Over time trends will form--those trends are what are fun to watch.

People get excited from regional success and cross their fingers hoping it translates to cross regional success.
Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
_SpiRaL_
Profile Joined December 2012
Afghanistan1636 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-19 20:53:49
April 19 2013 20:53 GMT
#207
Can the people criticizing it whilst offering absolutely nothing constructive please remember:

The accuracy of this ranking supercedes anything produced so far in SC2 and maybe in any esport.

Using this ranking would have you absolutely dominate a randomly selected individual in liquibets on average, even if you only selected that individual from a group of hardcore fans/casters and players.

So it DOES have merit, irrefutably. I keep seeing the same stuff "oh its numbers and maths blah blah but its not applicable to real life play" etc etc. Well actually, it is. It has very good predictive ability which only increases with time. You people have exactly the same kind of dinosaur way of thinking that riddles professional sport. Think of it like this: This is moneyball and you are the old dinosaur scouts who judge based one 'intuition'.

The ranking list is vastly superior to anything you as an individual could come up with in accuracy even if you disagree with it.

And no they are not ignoring your constructive criticism you don't understand what constructive means (to that absolutely clueless Austrian guy especially who was posting on the last page, my god what a low IQ cretin. Prediction he is no more than 15 years old and does not do well at maths at school).
Red and yellow are all I see
Thieving Magpie
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
United States6752 Posts
April 19 2013 21:06 GMT
#208
On April 20 2013 05:53 _SpiRaL_ wrote:
Can the people criticizing it whilst offering absolutely nothing constructive please remember:

The accuracy of this ranking supercedes anything produced so far in SC2 and maybe in any esport.

Using this ranking would have you absolutely dominate a randomly selected individual in liquibets on average, even if you only selected that individual from a group of hardcore fans/casters and players.

So it DOES have merit, irrefutably. I keep seeing the same stuff "oh its numbers and maths blah blah but its not applicable to real life play" etc etc. Well actually, it is. It has very good predictive ability which only increases with time. You people have exactly the same kind of dinosaur way of thinking that riddles professional sport. Think of it like this: This is moneyball and you are the old dinosaur scouts who judge based one 'intuition'.

The ranking list is vastly superior to anything you as an individual could come up with in accuracy even if you disagree with it.

And no they are not ignoring your constructive criticism you don't understand what constructive means (to that absolutely clueless Austrian guy especially who was posting on the last page, my god what a low IQ cretin. Prediction he is no more than 15 years old and does not do well at maths at school).


Hark, what baseball through yonder window breaks?
gondolin
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
France332 Posts
April 19 2013 21:21 GMT
#209
From what I remember the system use something similar to true skill, so it is not "flawed", just it will take some time to converge, especially with the arrival of a lot of new players (the kespa player). What would make it converge a lot sooner is to use something like true skill through time, to incorporate futre results into the present ranking.
Grovbolle
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Denmark3825 Posts
April 19 2013 22:10 GMT
#210
On April 20 2013 06:21 gondolin wrote:
From what I remember the system use something similar to true skill, so it is not "flawed", just it will take some time to converge, especially with the arrival of a lot of new players (the kespa player). What would make it converge a lot sooner is to use something like true skill through time, to incorporate futre results into the present ranking.

So guessing the skill in the future?

Obviously we can always use forward filthering backwards smoothing once games are played and make the older rankings better, but that's not really doing us any good with the newest ranking.
Lies, damned lies and statistics: http://aligulac.com
SlixSC
Profile Joined October 2012
666 Posts
April 20 2013 02:16 GMT
#211
On April 20 2013 04:05 Grovbolle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2013 03:28 stelzer wrote:
wtf is this?

here are the pro winrates for hots: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E#gid=0

Here are the actual rates based on more games http://aligulac.com/results/



You are including show matches and a significant amount of amateur games. Including games that have nothing to do with pro play is kind of defeating the whole purpose of a balance graph. Why not take it to the extreme and also include bronze matches and practise matches? You are including amateur matches and showmatches after all so it doesn't seem that far off.
MasterOfPuppets
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Romania6942 Posts
April 20 2013 06:48 GMT
#212
On April 20 2013 11:16 SlixSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2013 04:05 Grovbolle wrote:
On April 20 2013 03:28 stelzer wrote:
wtf is this?

here are the pro winrates for hots: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0At0PE4rdhsI9dDE0cEprWkwwMGxQdTczTTlLNW1qX1E#gid=0

Here are the actual rates based on more games http://aligulac.com/results/



You are including show matches and a significant amount of amateur games. Including games that have nothing to do with pro play is kind of defeating the whole purpose of a balance graph. Why not take it to the extreme and also include bronze matches and practise matches? You are including amateur matches and showmatches after all so it doesn't seem that far off.


Wat. This isn't a balance graph. It's a system that attempts to predict the outcome of a match with some degree of accuracy, based upon a player rating, which is calculated from their match history. If you seriously think showmatches between pro players are not remotely representative of their skill level at that given point in time, then...

I suggest you stop posting in this thread, you're doing nothing but making a fool out of yourself with stupid claim upon stupid claim none of which would happen if you had even read the information provided in the OP or in the site's FAQ.
"my shaft scares me too" - strenx 2014
MateShade
Profile Joined July 2011
Australia736 Posts
April 20 2013 07:00 GMT
#213
Still looks like Zerg dominating to me............
Big-t
Profile Joined January 2011
Austria1351 Posts
April 20 2013 07:03 GMT
#214
Who is Bunny? Top 10 foreigners and I have never heard of him????
monchi | IdrA | Flash
MasterOfPuppets
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Romania6942 Posts
April 20 2013 07:15 GMT
#215
On April 20 2013 16:03 Big-t wrote:
Who is Bunny? Top 10 foreigners and I have never heard of him????


Last year he got 3rd at WCS Denmark.

Goes to show how much you know about the foreign scene really..
"my shaft scares me too" - strenx 2014
IcedBacon
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada906 Posts
April 20 2013 07:23 GMT
#216
On April 20 2013 16:15 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2013 16:03 Big-t wrote:
Who is Bunny? Top 10 foreigners and I have never heard of him????


Last year he got 3rd at WCS Denmark.

Goes to show how much you know about the foreign scene really..


News flash, a huge majority of StarCraft fans do not care about the results of WCS Denmark. Also that bracket doesn't look intimidating in the slightest.
"I went Zerg because Artosis is a douchebag." -IdrA
figq
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
12519 Posts
April 20 2013 07:26 GMT
#217
Don't you dare question the mighty relevance of getting 3rd in WCS Denmark. The man is a legend.
If you stand next to my head, you can hear the ocean. - Day[9]
MasterOfPuppets
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Romania6942 Posts
April 20 2013 07:29 GMT
#218
On April 20 2013 16:23 IcedBacon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2013 16:15 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
On April 20 2013 16:03 Big-t wrote:
Who is Bunny? Top 10 foreigners and I have never heard of him????


Last year he got 3rd at WCS Denmark.

Goes to show how much you know about the foreign scene really..


News flash, a huge majority of StarCraft fans do not care about the results of WCS Denmark. Also that bracket doesn't look intimidating in the slightest.


If they don't care, they would do well to not post with such unwarranted self importance, since their opinion is uneducated. ^^

Plus, he qualified for the WCS EU Premier with wins over LiveZerg, Welmu and MVP.finale, and also won a showmatch against monchi 4-1. I'd say he's fairly strong as of late.
"my shaft scares me too" - strenx 2014
Korlin
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada142 Posts
April 20 2013 07:44 GMT
#219
On April 20 2013 16:26 figq wrote:
Don't you dare question the mighty relevance of getting 3rd in WCS Denmark. The man is a legend.


This post made my night, thank you.
75
Profile Joined December 2012
Germany4057 Posts
April 20 2013 07:54 GMT
#220
So much whine...
yo twitch, as long as I can watch 480p lagfree I'm happy
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