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On April 11 2013 00:42 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 00:37 Plansix wrote:On April 11 2013 00:33 dacimvrl wrote:On April 11 2013 00:30 TimENT wrote:On April 11 2013 00:26 dacimvrl wrote:On April 11 2013 00:18 Plansix wrote:On April 11 2013 00:15 Elairec wrote:On April 11 2013 00:11 dacimvrl wrote:On April 11 2013 00:10 Plansix wrote:On April 11 2013 00:07 dacimvrl wrote:
[quote]
Pretty sure a bunch retired or do not play professionally..... Not only that, do you think people would rather watch this over GSL, and that a league filled with these players is a sustainable business model?
But we can watch both. They aren't on at the same time. It not one of the other. We can have it all. Though I understand if you refuse to accept that in an attempt to make your point that it should be all Koreans all the time. Let me quote you from earlier - " we only have so much time, the leaves in the backyard aren't gonna rake themselves", so all of a sudden, the leaves in your backyard are gonna rake themselves? Don't be a prick; there will be vods No, he wants to argue that an NA league will never work, that only Koreans can make SC2 work and that WCS will never be offline. Let him have his argument that defies fact. You are still not getting the point..... It's obviously not sustainable. A tournament like GSL requires large sponsorships, and a decent number of subscribers to make it work. Hot6, LG, Sony...etc. sponsored GSLs before, who's gonna do that in NA? And how many people would actually subscribe to watch the players you listed play...... wake up.... A shit ton of people WILL subscribe for Scarlett and Idra alone. Combined with all these KR players coming, JAEDONG, VIOLET, RYUNG, MOTHERFUCKING POLT. Oh and, who wouldn't subscribe to all 3 of these amazing tournaments? Oh, and who wouldn't sponsor all 3 of these regions? This shits about to blow up so hard. err, for the record, scroll up, he said a GSL tournament with 32 NA players only, so that means no violet, ryung, polt, jaedong...but with players he listed like combat-ex No I did not say that, but it does make your argument easier, so I can see why you would assume that. I didn't even provide that list. And Combat Ex is a joke. I have said over and over that any player who wants to come and live in NA should be able to play. I don't want Korean players qualifying online and receiving paid plane tickets to the venue. I want local talent and players who are willing to take the risk moving out here to compete. Polt and Violet are fine and should be able to play. If its offline, I don't care who plays, because the it is easier for the local talent to compete. Except you did.. Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 00:37 Plansix wrote:
But I want more. I want an NA GSL that is offline and does not provide excepts for Korean players who want to qualify online.
Yeah, I want them to not be able to qualify online and have special exceptions provided to them.. Stop cherry picking my quotes to make your point. I have been clear from the start that I don't want off line events where players are required to move to the region to compete weekly.
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On April 11 2013 00:33 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 00:27 Plansix wrote:More information on WCS about later seasons: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=407201Key quote: " How long do the players need to be available for the offline events?For Season 1, players in the WCS America and WCS Europe regions will need to be available for approximately 3–4 days for offline events. All WCS Korea matches are played offline. In the future, we will be looking to extend the offline portions of both WCS America and WCS Europe, so please be aware that this will change in coming seasons. Players will be expected to participate in all offline portions of the league they are committing to. " So it looks like later seasons there will be less of the seasons offline, though qualifiers may always be online. Hopefully the entire round of 32 will be offline next season. What the... according to the schedule posted at esfi, the players need to be available for 2 weeks (the first for ro16, the second for ro8 and onwards). What is going on here? Contradicting information everywhere! source: http://www.esfiworld.com/wcs-america-europe-formats-detailed-invited-players-to-be-announced-april-12th/
That line of communication durrrrrrrrrrr.
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On April 11 2013 00:32 LighT. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 23:46 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
This is insane, no more reason to purchase a gom ticket as far as i'm concerned. What are you talking about.. 20 players off the top of my head: Bomber Life Flash Soulkey Roro Jangbi Rain Fantasy DRG Innovation Parting Squirtle sOs MKP Gumiho Leenock Byun Supernova jjakji Symbol Just because a few Code S players and a few players with personalities switch over, its suddenly not worth the ticket anymore?
In my case, yes. Now we get free live 720p stream, the vod quality for a light ticket has been decreased from 720p to 540p, and now we've fan favourites leaving the korean competition for the western one.
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On April 11 2013 00:43 EG.lectR wrote:
This is actually a very good thing for StarCraft II in Europe and North America.
Not if your an upcoming player trying to break out in the scene, it just gets worse and worse.
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Does nobody else realize that almost half of that NA list is EG-TL players? And that EG-TL players doing well is NA is great for teams like EG as a whole and TL, the site you're f'n POSTING on?
The stupidity of this forum is impressive to say the least.
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wait mvp and nestea also? dayum..
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On April 11 2013 00:45 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 00:32 LighT. wrote:On April 10 2013 23:46 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
This is insane, no more reason to purchase a gom ticket as far as i'm concerned. What are you talking about.. 20 players off the top of my head: Bomber Life Flash Soulkey Roro Jangbi Rain Fantasy DRG Innovation Parting Squirtle sOs MKP Gumiho Leenock Byun Supernova jjakji Symbol Just because a few Code S players and a few players with personalities switch over, its suddenly not worth the ticket anymore? In my case, yes. Now we get free live 720p stream, the vod quality for a light ticket has been decreased from 720p to 540p, and now we've fan favourites leaving the korean competition for the western one.
Add in to the fact that - as a european - you can switch on the livestream in the morning, immediately press pause at the very beginning and unpause in the evening to rewatch everything (assuming you did not shut down your computer/laptop). :D
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On April 11 2013 00:11 yrt123 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 00:00 Wombat_NI wrote:
Wow, for the first time in a while NA will have more stacked competition than that of EU. I was expecting a more even split of players for those that didn't lock themselves into Kr tbh, bit of a surprise Probably has to do with lower ping on NA compared to EU I think.
That's what happens when you have to play online from Korea! o;
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I look forward to watching the best players, and if they are mostly Koreans, so be it. It's not their fault that other regions haven't stepped up. I think that's what Morhaime said about other players will have to step up their game to be on equal footing with the Koreans.
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On April 11 2013 00:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 00:42 dacimvrl wrote:On April 11 2013 00:37 Plansix wrote:On April 11 2013 00:33 dacimvrl wrote:On April 11 2013 00:30 TimENT wrote:On April 11 2013 00:26 dacimvrl wrote:On April 11 2013 00:18 Plansix wrote:On April 11 2013 00:15 Elairec wrote:On April 11 2013 00:11 dacimvrl wrote:On April 11 2013 00:10 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
But we can watch both. They aren't on at the same time. It not one of the other. We can have it all. Though I understand if you refuse to accept that in an attempt to make your point that it should be all Koreans all the time. Let me quote you from earlier - " we only have so much time, the leaves in the backyard aren't gonna rake themselves", so all of a sudden, the leaves in your backyard are gonna rake themselves? Don't be a prick; there will be vods No, he wants to argue that an NA league will never work, that only Koreans can make SC2 work and that WCS will never be offline. Let him have his argument that defies fact. You are still not getting the point..... It's obviously not sustainable. A tournament like GSL requires large sponsorships, and a decent number of subscribers to make it work. Hot6, LG, Sony...etc. sponsored GSLs before, who's gonna do that in NA? And how many people would actually subscribe to watch the players you listed play...... wake up.... A shit ton of people WILL subscribe for Scarlett and Idra alone. Combined with all these KR players coming, JAEDONG, VIOLET, RYUNG, MOTHERFUCKING POLT. Oh and, who wouldn't subscribe to all 3 of these amazing tournaments? Oh, and who wouldn't sponsor all 3 of these regions? This shits about to blow up so hard. err, for the record, scroll up, he said a GSL tournament with 32 NA players only, so that means no violet, ryung, polt, jaedong...but with players he listed like combat-ex No I did not say that, but it does make your argument easier, so I can see why you would assume that. I didn't even provide that list. And Combat Ex is a joke. I have said over and over that any player who wants to come and live in NA should be able to play. I don't want Korean players qualifying online and receiving paid plane tickets to the venue. I want local talent and players who are willing to take the risk moving out here to compete. Polt and Violet are fine and should be able to play. If its offline, I don't care who plays, because the it is easier for the local talent to compete. Except you did.. On April 11 2013 00:37 Plansix wrote:
But I want more. I want an NA GSL that is offline and does not provide excepts for Korean players who want to qualify online. Yeah, I want them to not be able to qualify online and have special exceptions provided to them.. Stop cherry picking my quotes to make your point. I have been clear from the start that I don't want off line events where players are required to move to the region to compete weekly.
what the fuck.. so now you changed your story again to "I don't want off line events where players are required to move to the region to compete weekly." ....and yet you just said "i would like to see local players who are willing to take the risk moving out here to compete" do you even read what you are typing..
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All the foreign teams send their players to the regions where the sponsors profit the most. All the EG koreans are playing in NA for more exposure for the sponsors. LG-IM sends their super well known players to 2 different regions for more exposure and they might be able to earn easy money in the process.
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On April 11 2013 00:31 SinCitta wrote:
BeyondCtrL, you have good points and I want to believe that this is what Blizzard is aiming for.
But: How can Blizzard communicate this so badly? And why is everything so rushed? There should have been at least a month between the announcement and the first league that uses the system, not a day.
Moreover, are we sure that the NA scene can hold on for another year without most of the players retiring and the teams surviving for another year? Why do we go from a hard region lock to a no-region-lock? It will be a mess when Koreans have to switch back if they can't move to their region next year.
I think ESL is perfectly able to host an all-offline WCS season by season 2, provided they receive the necessary funds by Blizzard. They have everything in place for LCS already. And I can imagine MLG never wants to lag behind. When everything works as it should in 2014, a lot of momentum and passion will be lost already.
The reason for this is that Blizzard was most likely feeling a lot of pressure. Before this announcement, and the outcry of how it will kill foreign sustainability, let's not forget that foreign sustainability already was in big trouble. Practically every big tournament was sweeped and dominated by Koreans.
Additionally, we have to keep in mind that the prize distribution is not top heavy. Announcing it as soon as possible, though somewhat chaotically, still benefits the foreign scene a lot because simply by being in the premier league can mean a steady income. The fact that you don't have to place top 3 to even begin to cover travel cost is something. Not to mention an offline qualifier will alleviate the travel costs/visa issues for many potential players in EU. Even though we see a large list in NA we also have to consider lag and other factors. Admittedly the distribution most likely will end up Korean heavy I think a lot of big name foreigners can qualify, more so in EU. Coupled with the more even prize distribution this can act as a quick cash and motivation infusion for a lot of players that need it.
I'm not trying to imply that I'm completely right, this is just my thought and analysis of the situation.
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On April 11 2013 00:43 EG.lectR wrote:
This is actually a very good thing for StarCraft II in Europe and North America.
Explain to me how you think this.
* Korean players will still live, practice, and play teamleagues in Korea like they were before.
* MLG and IEM are still basically weekend events
* Prize pool for GSL decreased by 60K, quality of GSL watered down due to koreans leaving
* Quality of MLG and IEM also decreased, as WCS KR and NA/EU players now can't come to these events either
Plz explain
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On April 11 2013 00:39 blackone wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 00:35 LighT. wrote:On April 11 2013 00:34 blackone wrote:
A full year without GSL for MVP, so sad To be honest his team was dwindling as the Kespa guys switch over and his wrist problems worsening. What. LG-IM is pretty much the least dwindling team in the world.
Oops bad error.
I meant his time*
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On April 11 2013 00:45 shadymmj wrote:
This is absurd though, I couldn't care less what team MVP or JD played for, they could be playing for real madrid esports for all I care. But what's the point of having a NA division when umm, half of them are korean? So that they can play live somewhere in the US, where they will most likely draw a mediocre crowd?
The same point as having an English Premier Leauge or a German Bundesliga were half the players aren't English or German, respectively. People like watching the best players play.
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On April 11 2013 00:48 dacimvrl wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 00:45 Plansix wrote:On April 11 2013 00:42 dacimvrl wrote:On April 11 2013 00:37 Plansix wrote:On April 11 2013 00:33 dacimvrl wrote:On April 11 2013 00:30 TimENT wrote:On April 11 2013 00:26 dacimvrl wrote:On April 11 2013 00:18 Plansix wrote:On April 11 2013 00:15 Elairec wrote:On April 11 2013 00:11 dacimvrl wrote:
[quote]
Let me quote you from earlier - " we only have so much time, the leaves in the backyard aren't gonna rake themselves", so all of a sudden, the leaves in your backyard are gonna rake themselves?
Don't be a prick; there will be vods No, he wants to argue that an NA league will never work, that only Koreans can make SC2 work and that WCS will never be offline. Let him have his argument that defies fact. You are still not getting the point..... It's obviously not sustainable. A tournament like GSL requires large sponsorships, and a decent number of subscribers to make it work. Hot6, LG, Sony...etc. sponsored GSLs before, who's gonna do that in NA? And how many people would actually subscribe to watch the players you listed play...... wake up.... A shit ton of people WILL subscribe for Scarlett and Idra alone. Combined with all these KR players coming, JAEDONG, VIOLET, RYUNG, MOTHERFUCKING POLT. Oh and, who wouldn't subscribe to all 3 of these amazing tournaments? Oh, and who wouldn't sponsor all 3 of these regions? This shits about to blow up so hard. err, for the record, scroll up, he said a GSL tournament with 32 NA players only, so that means no violet, ryung, polt, jaedong...but with players he listed like combat-ex No I did not say that, but it does make your argument easier, so I can see why you would assume that. I didn't even provide that list. And Combat Ex is a joke. I have said over and over that any player who wants to come and live in NA should be able to play. I don't want Korean players qualifying online and receiving paid plane tickets to the venue. I want local talent and players who are willing to take the risk moving out here to compete. Polt and Violet are fine and should be able to play. If its offline, I don't care who plays, because the it is easier for the local talent to compete. Except you did.. On April 11 2013 00:37 Plansix wrote:
But I want more. I want an NA GSL that is offline and does not provide excepts for Korean players who want to qualify online. Yeah, I want them to not be able to qualify online and have special exceptions provided to them.. Stop cherry picking my quotes to make your point. I have been clear from the start that I want off line events where players are required to move to the region to compete weekly. what the fuck.. so now you changed your story again to "I don't want off line events where players are required to move to the region to compete weekly." .... do you even read what you are typing..
That was a typo. I want offline events where players are required to compete weekly and move to the area to do so. The rest will handle itself when its comes to players qualifying and if it is worth their time. I also don't want exceptions for Korean players(or EU players or NA players) to qualify into the event. Online qualifiers are a necessary evil because of the size of the US.
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On April 11 2013 00:38 BeyondCtrL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 00:30 lord_nibbler wrote:On April 10 2013 23:50 BeyondCtrL wrote:
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When the regional WCS become all offline the Koreans and Korean teams (only Incredible Miracle has so far dedicated players, all other teams are foreign owned) can consider permanently relocating to another region. Once this begins happening the level of play in regions should start improving further.
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Step Two: Woo Korean teams and infrastructure with money that is not completely centralized in Seoul. Get them accustomed to the prospect that relocating is feasible. If the initial region locks are too severe then regions will become too insulated and will actually hurt long term growth.
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Your point of view leaves me speechless. Seriously, like what the ..? How big and wealthy do you think Korean teams are? What kind of unique asset do they posses? Why would you think that teams would have to be transfered anywhere? Or even could or wanted to? Do you get what a sponsor does? What his interests are? I am worried, either you (and the people praising your post) or me are living in a parallel universe, because your text made no economic sense to me. If you, literally, read further you would see that I say: "Thus moderate region locks are implemented with online qualifiers. Korean players and teams aren't so rich that they can buy a team house in some random city in EU or NA. On top of this there is no set location for offline events like GOM in Seoul. What incentive is there when you get a house in Poland and the tournament location is in France or Germany, or elsewhere? The Korean scene is possible because everything is centralized in one city." Read more carefully please, I'm not suggesting that Korean teams will just relocate. What I'm suggesting is that the current announcement and the way the region locking is imposed is to warm Korean teams up to the idea of relocating sometime in the future. If Korean teams realize, for example, if the regional WCS and non-WCS tournaments begin to provide income comparable to Seoul then relocating wouldn't be so absurd. And if you actually read the entirety of my post it explains why this is beneficial to the respective regions.
Again, why? Why would you think any team would have to be transfered anywhere?
So, following your example if I wanted to make the German basketball league big I would have to try to 'lure' the LA Lakers to Berlin? Why? What is the use of that?
Teams are numerous in Germany, what the league lacks are sponsors, audience and good players.
How is the Lakers team of any help if they come over but consequently losing all their sponsors, fans and players?
Like I said, I do not get this at all.
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On April 10 2013 23:27 Passion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 22:53 avilo wrote:On April 10 2013 22:44 Passion wrote:On April 10 2013 22:23 avilo wrote:
This is pretty terrible lmao. The entire point of WCS and this initiative was to get other countries/regions to have an ecosystem of their own, as well as infuse prize money that those players in those regions could feasibly win.
Instead, what we have set up is a system where blizzard basically said, "here koreans, free moneys, foreigners...screw you." Perhaps that was not their intention, but that's going to be the result.
So what is the incentive here for people to train, and invest their own money to go to events, etc? You know a korean with 10x the training, a team house, team backing will be at the event.
Oh wait, I got that wrong. Instead of a few like previously, now it's going to be 15+ all here to take your region's cash lol.
This is insanely stupid. Imagine the Olympics allowing NBA teams to play "in any region." I can imagine it now.
"Welcome to the 2016 Olympic basketball finals! Your finalists, China's LA lakers, Russia's Boston Celtics, Canada's Clippers," wait a minute...what happened to the other countries basketball teams?
How does this prevent the various regions to have their own ecosystem in any way? How does Blizzard offering "foreigners" (though I don't understand the relevance of "foreigners" in this context) a chance to win more money by playing a game translate into "foreigner... screw you"? What the incentive is? Good question. However, given the amount of cash available, I sure do hope these people don't train and go to events to make a living, as 99% of them will never manage such, despite the extra money Blizzard is putting on the table. I hope that it's, like in any sport, the fact that they enjoy the game and enjoy being competitive. Training to earn cash only becomes relevant after you've gone professional. Your region's cash? First of all, what the hell makes you feel so entitled to that money? Though more importantly maybe, why should people from with different nationalities not be allowed to participate in a tournament located in "your region"? Sure it's good to also have national championships, however, this never was intended to be such. NBA teams at the Olympics? You really have a hard time understanding competitive sports, don't you? Besides, if you look at other sports like you do, this luckily happens all the time. Half of the average football squad consists of foreign players. They improve quality, mix things up and keep the leagues interesting. I'm pretty certain the premier league wouldn't be the most entertaining competition in the world if it weren't for this. Obviously Blizzard isn't doing thing perfectly, but it seems a good effort at setting up a global league system, something that has direly been missing in SC2. It's basically the next step towards having a truly professional competitive scene. It's good (EVEN if only for the extra cash spent). What ever mistakes they make, they'll learn from those. All this bitching and whining is totally uncalled for (without meaning to say we shouldn't give feedback, once we bump into issues, not before) - even though I realise it was inevitable, given how entitled and narrow minded this community has seem to become. It is not rocket science to understand. Blizzard intended this to help stimulate each region's player base, not turn NA into Korea2, and EU into Korea3. You're one of those people that has no clue. You're blanket calling people "entitled and narrow minded." You don't see the larger picture, that this does not help facilitate NA/EU growth. Apparently, you also have no understanding of real sports or progression systems. You don't join a local basketball qualifer tournament and have to play against Lebron James straight away if you're a basketball player. That would be ridiculous. You start with your local region, you win that, you go to regionals, then national level, pro level, etc. There has to be a progression. Yes, professional sports have athletes from other countries, but you're dellusional if you think that players from other countries are joining another countries NATIONAL TEAM. Sports do not work like that. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1c1slt/my_views_on_wcsregional_based_leagues_region/Read Catz post from reddit. He basically covers and echos the thoughts of rational minded people in the foreign scene. Catz makes some interesting point and I see where he's coming from (there's plenty I disagree with a well), and there's no one saying the international competitive SC2 scene is perfect right now. However, this won't be fixed that easily, and while there are other things that can and should be done, these effort on the WCS are definitely a good thing and a step in the right direction. To give one example, Koreans moving to NA/EU will create an competition worth watching, while also result in them bringing the Korean esports knowledge/mentality/(team house)infrastructure to these places. Local players will benefit a lot more from this than giving the top 3 NA/EU players a little bit of cash.
This would be a great thing if they actually moved to North America. However if they practice on the Korean ladder, play everything until the round of 16 online, and just stay for 2 weeks for the round of 16+, then there is no gain in the NA scene. It's the exact same thing as before.
When we get to a point where we suddenly have a studio in NA where this is a months long process like GSL, then we might actually see some Koreans actually move to NA full time. Until that happens, the current setup continues to discourage NA players from taking the game as seriously as everyone hopes.
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On April 11 2013 00:43 EG.lectR wrote:
This is actually a very good thing for StarCraft II in Europe and North America.
You're a very convincing guy.
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On April 11 2013 00:22 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 00:19 Doodsmack wrote:On April 11 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote:On April 11 2013 00:10 Doodsmack wrote:
Kinda doesn't sit well with me that current Code S players would jump ship to chase easy money. They currently represent the highest level of competition in the world and they're running from that to face easier competition. IMO it's dishonorable. Its not shocking at all. All the players in it for the money, though some die hard fans would like to claim that Koreans are in it for the love of the game. Its a little of both, but the money makes it easier to love the game. Yeah it's not shocking, but that doesn't make it honorable. This was never about honor, it was about making a living. Welcome to the real world of competitive anything. If there were no Korean leagues for these players to qualify for, they wouldn't play SC2 at all.
Except the only Koreans to choose NA/EU are the ones with money (foreign teams). They make a living. As you said before progamers aren't in it ONLY for the money, and a current Code S player should choose the competition over some more money.
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EPT
