EPTA very big change in KR SC2 scene will be announced(0403)…
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Gosi
Sweden9072 Posts
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Mortal
2943 Posts
On March 26 2013 22:52 Irre wrote: 'MERICUH. Seriously I don't understand how people are so ignorant and egocentric. How about you take the time to understand some of Korean culture. Would that be too much effort while you are gulping down your 40 oz Mountain Dew and Double Big Mac? How about the fact that top level players are actually capable of putting personality into their style of play. When MKP or Polt or MC or Life or July or Parting or MVP or Nestea or DRG etc etc play, you can actually kind of know who is playing just by the game itself. Try that for anyone but like stephano or Huk in the foreigner scene. They have to either be BM or "entertaining" outside of the game, because they can't entertain well enough through the game itself. When you are some of the best players in the world, the games speak for themselves and people are stunned and excited to see the play. We saw that pretty clearly with MLG ro32 to the ro16 to the finals. I really hope that the best players don't get locked out of weekend events, because that will give me a whole lot less content to watch  Wow, it's been a while since I've seen such a vapid and toxic post on TL. What a disgusting way to address someone (you're from the US btw according to your profile, get down off that high horse). To argue that only Huk and Stephano, have their own style of play is hilarious. Stephano was basically the first to popularize the 10:30 roach/ling max if memory serves. Huk has distinctive timings and style as well-albiet usually all-in centric, that doesn't make it any less valid. When he was a competitive player, Axslav had a style unlike anyone else I know. He played like Nestea, outthinking his opponents with simple and slow play (I completely understand Nestea still played very quickly and with high mechanical skill). Vibe has been known for very strange and quirky play like making rounds of lings at odd times (remind you of anyone?). Get over yourself thinking you're some arbiter of SK culture. You want to see the best players play, and I get that, sure. But what I don't get is you attacking someone for wanting to see someone from a lesser publicized or famous region get some airtime; variety can make this game more interesting. edit for formatting and misreading. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 27 2013 01:42 StarStruck wrote: Who said it had to be viable for that astronomical number you threw out? When it comes to NA I'm looking at a very limited pool of prospects. Not only that the culture for some of these talents would be too much for them to adapt to in the first place. In some cases you have to do what you have to do if you really want to get good. My old coaches in athletics told me the same shit all the time. 98% hard work; 2% raw talent. I'm always skeptical when it came to such things, but yes hard work does payoff. I honestly wish they would put genetics in there. Especially when it came to sports like rowing and basketball. So when we're talking about talent? Oh it's very hard to find good talent no matter how you slice it. You think IdrA is a talented player? I'd say no. I'd say it was his hard work and mechanics which developed from that hard work to become a better player. Raw talent is very hard to come by and having good mechanics can only take you so far. See Mr. Bisu for example. You cannot teach Star sense. It might get better with time, but some players just get it. Bringing in A-list/B-list Koreans should have some benefits. Let me put it this way, back in BW I used to bring in a lot of Koreans to practice with my boys because I knew it would benefit the players. Likewise in my MMA practice we bring in reputable fighters from other camps for sparring purposes. That's actually pretty common because it's next to impossible to be the guru in every martial art. Just like one player could be really good at one match-up and totally suck in another. I am going to have to disagree with you on this one. Emigrate to another country just to get better at a game is not something that most people can do. It is also not practical and comes with a number of issues that make the prospect to risky for most players. Some of the issues are underrated by the community, like culture shock(totally underrated by the community), isolation and the inability to speak the language really cut into the potential players that can succeed in the scene. Hypothetically, if we took all the Korean pros right now and instead of having to go to Seoul Korean, they had to emigrate to the US, how many talent players wouldn't make the trip simply because it wasn't viable or possible. I think it would a signifigant number. I also think living in the US would have a negative affect on their ability to pratice and focus. This is my personal opinion, but I think there is growing pool of evidence that shows moving over seas can be really tough on some players. This idea isn't some kind of excuse for foreign players, more an observation on the problem. If you look at the lengths coaches go to in other professional sports (or high skill professions like music) go to keeping their charges free of stress and distraction, it no wonder some of the players under perform in Korea. It is a solvable problem, but I think it does limit the people who are willing to take that risk for any specific area. | ||
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Albinoswordfish
United States108 Posts
On March 27 2013 01:40 Plansix wrote: This has already been discussed to death. The Korean teams did not start out as gods of BW, with the builds implanted into their heads from special, drug laced drinking water. Their play, teams and playstyles evolved over the years into the Kespa teams of today. It took time and at the start of BW, eveyone was far less skill than they are today. This applies to every profoessional sport ever. Go back and watch old games of the Boston Celtics in the early 1980s and compare their play to any team now. It is like night and day how different they are. The game is faster and meaner than it ever was 30 years ago. Players will get better because it is what they do. It is how competition works. Coaching will get better because teams will seek coaching styles from Kespa coaches and be willing to pay for it to edge out other teams. Players will train in Korea in the off season to return and rip through the NA/EU leagues. Yeah like I said the overall skill of NA/EU will increase, I don't think you realize how far behind NA/EU is compared to Korea in terms of skill/practice/dedication. People are acting like within a year (if they have a KESPA style training house) we're going to have foreigners competing for GSLs on a regular basis. Not going to happen especially if they're spending a large portion of their time practicing against other foreigners. Going to Korea for like 3 months out of year is not going catch up to Life/Flash/Innovation/etc. It's going to take several years of this kind of dedication and just maybe we'll see foreigners almost on the same level. | ||
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StarVe
Germany13591 Posts
On March 27 2013 01:27 Albinoswordfish wrote: I'm really confused at this notion that having regional teamleagues and tournaments is going to increase the level of skill to that of their Korean opponents. What it will do is encourage pros from EU and NA to practice for something and give them something to play for that's realistic. This will give exposure to more up and coming pros outside of Korea and raise the skill and number of good players in these scenes. However this won't bring NA and EU to the level of Korea as they're playing and practicing against inferior competition. This is like dominating basketball in the Euroleague and then thinking you can dominate the NBA (which rarely happens). So the number of foreigners that can compete with Koreans won't really change but fans of NA and EU will have somebody to cheer for and overall raise the skill of both scenes. You're mostly right, but at the same time if you didn't have Euroleague at all that would decrease the chance of finding and developing a talented player who might one day have a shot to make it in the NBA by a large margin, too. I don't think it's the perfect solution to all the problems, but I think it could be a small step forward. Players working towards a realistic goal could be pushing each other to new heights and it's not like intercontinental competition dies completely, people will still have the opportunity to play against and learn from pros much better than themselves. I'd take a small step forward in the right direction over running in circles any day.  And if it doesn't interfere with the Korean players' quest of getting better and developing their scene, I think it's quite good. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 27 2013 02:01 Albinoswordfish wrote: Yeah like I said the overall skill of NA/EU will increase, I don't think you realize how far behind NA/EU is compared to Korea in terms of skill/practice/dedication. People are acting like within a year (if they have a KESPA style training house) we're going to have foreigners competing for GSLs on a regular basis. Not going to happen especially if they're spending a large portion of their time practicing against other foreigners. Going to Korea for like 3 months out of year is not going catch up to Life/Flash/Innovation/etc. It's going to take several years of this kind of dedication and just maybe we'll see foreigners almost on the same level. I think I know exactly how far behind they are compaired to the Koreans. I posted a number of times this was a long term plan. You are misreading what I am saying and the fact that my primary example is the changes in basketball over 30 years shows that I am not talking about a single year. You should avoid assuming things. | ||
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Albinoswordfish
United States108 Posts
On March 27 2013 02:06 StarVe wrote: You're mostly right, but at the same time if you didn't have Euroleague at all that would decrease the chance of finding and developing a talented player who might one day have a shot to make it in the NBA by a large margin, too. I don't think it's the perfect solution to all the problems, but I think it could be a small step forward. Players working towards a realistic goal could be pushing each other to new heights and it's not like intercontinental competition dies completely, people will still have the opportunity to play against and learn from pros much better than themselves. I'd take a small step forward in the right direction over running in circles any day. And if it doesn't interfere with the Korean players' quest of getting better and developing their scene, I think it's quite good. Agreed, I think this is a good thing for developing the scene for every region. Just I'm not expecting foreigners to be on the same level with Koreans anytime soon. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 27 2013 01:48 Gosi wrote: How is this region locked competition working out in the LoL scene btw? If I understand it right, the NA scene for an example is not lacking in backing and support when it comes to money related things right? Most relevant teams are living in a team house while getting money from Riot and having sponsors like any other esport organisation right? Are NA and EU competitive with Korea and China? Right now I would say that NA is behind with the exception of the top teams. EU seems to be well rounded, but it is tough to tell how they would stack up against the top NA teams. Asia stomped the top NA team, but that was a case of the Asian team preparing for them on a level that the NA team had never encountered before. I am intrested to see how the top NA team deals with that in their next encounter. I haven't seen a lot of EU vs Asia yet, but I assume that Asia has the edge. However, it is nothing like SC2 and the skill gap isn't as wide. | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
People complain that the foreigners are demotivated because they can't win an MLG with 10 Koreans. What are all the Korean Code B players supposed to do then, when they're playing against Jaedong in the Code A qualifiers? Koreans didn't have the Zotacs and Playhems and the multitude of online tournaments that EU and NA players had for a very long time. For a while, the Korean Weekly was the only tournament for up-and-comers to show themselves and even that doesn't exist anymore. I ask once again, if regional leagues are supposed to raise the skill level, where are all the incredibly skilled players coming out of the Taiwanese league that has been going on for a long time now, and has everything that regional lockout advocates claim as the recipe for success? | ||
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Albinoswordfish
United States108 Posts
On March 27 2013 02:11 Plansix wrote: I think I know exactly how far behind they are compaired to the Koreans. I posted a number of times this was a long term plan. You are misreading what I am saying and the fact that my primary example is the changes in basketball over 30 years shows that I am not talking about a single year. You should avoid assuming things. I apologize for assuming I knew what you meant but I just thought that since your response came off with a 'disagreeing' tone. | ||
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Irre
United States646 Posts
On March 27 2013 01:51 Mortal wrote: Wow, it's been a while since I've seen such a vapid and toxic post on TL. What a disgusting way to address someone (you're from the US btw according to your profile, get down off that high horse). To argue that only Huk and Stephano, have their own style of play is hilarious. Stephano was basically the first to popularize the 10:30 roach/ling max if memory serves. Huk has distinctive timings and style as well-albiet usually all-in centric, that doesn't make it any less valid. When he was a competitive player, Axslav had a style unlike anyone else I know. He played like Nestea, outthinking his opponents with simple and slow play (I completely understand Nestea still played very quickly and with high mechanical skill). Vibe has been known for very strange and quirky play like making rounds of lings at odd times (remind you of anyone?). Get over yourself thinking you're some arbiter of SK culture. You want to see the best players play, and I get that, sure. But what I don't get is you attacking someone for wanting to see someone from a lesser publicized or famous region get some airtime; variety can make this game more interesting. edit for formatting and misreading. Giving unknowns exposure had nothing to do with that post. If some NA league worked on its own ( I highly doubt it would), so be it, but it should not be at the expense of the current Korean sc2 scene either. The reference also wasn't a direct attack at the poster either, it was more of how I felt his post about Koreans needing to learn English to cater to a US Fanbase was absurd and striking a very egocentric tone. WE are not the big dogs of the starcraft world, they are. So maybe we should be putting in SOME effort to learn from them and their culture if we want to understand how to get better, not expect them to cater to our needs of them speaking english and doing funny things when they aren't playing top level starcraft. Not everyone is super outgoing like MC, and theres lots of quiet foreign sc2 pros as well. I don't know very much about Korean culture, just enough to appreciate it. I don't speak Korean...and yet I don't happen to see every player as having no personality or "faceless"; Amazing huh? I referenced Huk and Stephano bc they are typically some of the more stylistic players who are actually very skilled and have good mechanics. Axslav and some of the other NA players you reference don't really play on an international level...so I don't know why I would reference them over someone like Huk or Stephano, who have proven to show a lot of personality through their gameplay..not something very easy to accomplish playing at that top level. I could name more, but i felt those two would get the point across best. Comparing to Nestea REALLY? And not sure how you think I'm discounting their skill and playstyles through my post either, I'm saying its cool that you can recognize their play without having to see them in the booth... I think you kind of missed the whole point. | ||
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
On March 27 2013 01:48 Gosi wrote: How is this region locked competition working out in the LoL scene btw? If I understand it right, the NA scene for an example is not lacking in backing and support when it comes to money related things right? Most relevant teams are living in a team house while getting money from Riot and having sponsors like any other esport organisation right? Are NA and EU competitive with Korea and China? the NA LoL team is garbage, they get stomp super hard by Koreans and Taiwan. But because they don't have so many international tournaments, their fans are extremely delusional about how good the NA teams are. They will see it over time just how hard their NA teams are going to get stomp at every world series Many thinks this will change, because they are delusional, it won't, just like how the foreigners can't compete against Asians in sc2. The LoL NA teams are even bigger of a frat house if anything, and they just solo queue ladders all day and trolls when it will do nothing for them in terms of progression as a team | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On March 27 2013 01:20 Eartz wrote: I think this is less true now in the post-ADSL era. I used to watch soccer, and I watched the shitty french "Ligue 1" because I couldn't watch Premier League or Serie A as easily (I mean without paying for cable TV, etc). With SC2, I can watch Korean leagues as easily as EU leagues. I'm not saying I don't watch DH or MLG, but If i have to choose, I'll go with GSL any day. But you don't have to choose, do you? The leagues are gonna be played at different time, matches in the league itself are gonna be played at different time, sometimes matches might be played every 2,3 days, no one knows. If GSL and MLG happen at the same time, I can understand why people want to watch the highest level of play possible. But if the games are not overlapped, you can still casually tune in and watch the games. | ||
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sitromit
7051 Posts
On March 27 2013 02:18 iky43210 wrote: the NA LoL team is garbage, they get stomp super hard by Koreans and Taiwan. But because they don't have so many international tournaments, their fans are extremely delusional about how good the NA teams are. They will see it over time just how hard their NA teams are going to get stomp at every world series Sounds like the early MLGs, where a lot of the NA fans who didn't follow the GSL thought Select vs Incontrol was the pinnacle of SC2 gameplay. I don't think it's possible to sell that to anyone anymore in SC2, when everyone knows who Mvp, MKP, MC, Life, DRG etc are. | ||
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Cybren
United States206 Posts
On March 27 2013 02:16 sitromit wrote: As if EU and NA haven't always had more opportunities for up-and-coming players than Korea... What tournament can an up-an-coming Korean player play in? What do they have to motivate themselves with? Winning the GSL? Because that's an easily attainable goal? People complain that the foreigners are demotivated because they can't win an MLG with 10 Koreans. What are all the Korean Code B players supposed to do then, when they're playing against Jaedong in the Code A qualifiers? Koreans didn't have the Zotacs and Playhems and the multitude of online tournaments that EU and NA players had for a very long time. For a while, the Korean Weekly was the only tournament for up-and-comers to show themselves and even that doesn't exist anymore. I ask once again, if regional leagues are supposed to raise the skill level, where are all the incredibly skilled players coming out of the Taiwanese league that has been going on for a long time now, and has everything that regional lockout advocates claim as the recipe for success? koreans have an entire team house based talent development system that draws from up and coming players and trains them full time for team leagues and the code a qualifiers. westerners get $100 weekly tournaments. yes, clearly the koreans are behind. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 27 2013 02:20 sitromit wrote: Sounds like the early MLGs, where a lot of the NA fans who didn't follow the GSL thought Select vs Incontrol was the pinnacle of SC2 gameplay. I don't think it's possible to sell that to anyone anymore in SC2, when everyone knows who Mvp, MKP, MC, Life, DRG etc are. How do people watch college football when they know about the NFL? How do people go to minor league hockey games when there is the NHL? | ||
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Baroninthetree
United States473 Posts
On March 27 2013 02:26 Plansix wrote: How do people watch college football when they know about the NFL? How do people go to minor league hockey games when there is the NHL? How? Actually i really want to know how that works, so that i can have faith for regional and foreign sc2 | ||
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Cybren
United States206 Posts
Because the major leagues aren't playing. Because you want to support a local team. Because you're a major team scouting talent fejkla;f;alekjf seriously that was a silly question | ||
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Mortal
2943 Posts
On March 27 2013 02:18 Irre wrote: Giving unknowns exposure had nothing to do with that post. If some NA league worked on its own ( I highly doubt it would), so be it, but it should not be at the expense of the current Korean sc2 scene either. The reference also wasn't a direct attack at the poster either, it was more of how I felt his post about Koreans needing to learn English to cater to a US Fanbase was absurd and striking a very egocentric tone. WE are not the big dogs of the starcraft world, they are. So maybe we should be putting in SOME effort to learn from them and their culture if we want to understand how to get better, not expect them to cater to our needs of them speaking english and doing funny things when they aren't playing top level starcraft. Not everyone is super outgoing like MC, and theres lots of quiet foreign sc2 pros as well. I don't know very much about Korean culture, just enough to appreciate it. I don't speak Korean...and yet I don't happen to see every player as having no personality or "faceless"; Amazing huh? I referenced Huk and Stephano bc they are typically some of the more stylistic players who are actually very skilled and have good mechanics. Axslav and some of the other NA players you reference don't really play on an international level...so I don't know why I would reference them over someone like Huk or Stephano, who have proven to show a lot of personality through their gameplay..not something very easy to accomplish playing at that top level. I could name more, but i felt those two would get the point across best. Comparing to Nestea REALLY? And not sure how you think I'm discounting their skill and playstyles through my post either, I'm saying its cool that you can recognize their play without having to see them in the booth... I think you kind of missed the whole point. If you're complaining about egocentrism, you may want to refrain from doing it yourself. What grounds do you have to say an NA or EU league wouldn't work? Citing NASL isn't really valid considering their faulty model and almost instant give-in to complaints. The WCS tournaments were exciting in themselves, and those up until the finals were entirely regional. Yes, really comparing the Nestea. If you looked at their GENERAL ideas of how to play the game, they were almost entirely the same. They both relied mostly on their abilities to outthink their opponents, not spectacular mechanics or execution a la DRG. You intrisically cheapen their skill and playstyle by failing to mention them and saying you could onjly recognize the Koreans. That's a lack of knowledge and versity in the NA/EU scene, not a lack of flair on their part (watch Kas, Grubby, Vibe, Catz-that's cheating- Dimaga. The list goes on). | ||
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Albinoswordfish
United States108 Posts
On March 27 2013 02:28 Baroninthetree wrote: How? Actually i really want to know how that works, so that i can have faith for regional and foreign sc2 I don't think you have to worry about viewer numbers, people will watch an exclusive-NA tournament run well. It worked for WCS-EU don't see why it won't work for NA. | ||
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