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On March 26 2013 22:42 mtn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 22:39 ETisME wrote:On March 26 2013 22:35 nimdil wrote:On March 26 2013 22:29 Eury wrote:On March 26 2013 22:16 opterown wrote:On March 26 2013 22:14 Eury wrote:On March 26 2013 22:08 Grettin wrote:On March 26 2013 22:04 Eury wrote:On March 26 2013 22:02 Dumbledore wrote:On March 26 2013 19:08 Eury wrote:
[quote]
Name me a more popular/famous SC 2 player than Idra. Boxer, Flash, Jaedong..The list goes on.. I said SC 2 and not BW. Two of those are actively playing and one is a coach/manager. I'd bet they still have more fans overall (around the globe) compared Idra. Why are we even talking about player popularity? That might had been true if the BW and SC 2 fanbase would be the same. It is not. The BW scene was almost non-existent in the west while it was very much alive in Korea. With SC 2 it has pretty much flipped. And why we are talking about popularity here is because some people claimed that viewers only cares about the "highest level of play", which is obviously not true. "Idra has a larger fanbase and outreach than pretty much the whole Korean scene put together" not true either of course viewers care about more than just pure skill, but idra is not the be-all-and-end-all foreigner lol It was an exaggeration mostly to point out what a sad shape the Korean SC 2 scene currently is in. Very few Koreans are watching foreign events at all, so whatever the amount of Korean fans Korean players have has almost no bearing on the viewership for MLG, Dreamhack etc. What generates a large amount of viewership for MLG is the popularity of the players in the west and I wouldn't put any Korean over an Idra, Grubby or Stephano in that. Except MC. I'd alway watch MC over IdrA and probably over Grubby. Between him and Stephano - it's a tie. The thing is - IdrA with his "Macro macro macro" style was rather boring to watch. The only really entertaining thing about his play was his trash talking and rage quitting. And I'm not sure that's really entertainment esport would like to market... Zvt was almost never boring to watch. Idra game shows how amazing a Zerg with good mechanics could be, great creep spread and muta harass, eating drops and run by etc. It was only until infestor style became dominate that he really began the downfall Idra never had good mechanics... That's a myth comparable to Unicorns.
Amen to that.
Foreign standards of mechanics are so far of Korean ones. "IdrA has good mechanics", means that vs medium AI level of aggression he can produce 80 drones pretty quickly -_-.
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On March 26 2013 23:28 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 23:25 GhandiEAGLE wrote:On March 26 2013 23:20 lichter wrote:On March 26 2013 23:12 Sissors wrote:On March 26 2013 23:02 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On March 26 2013 22:59 ES.Genie wrote:On March 26 2013 22:53 Eury wrote:
At the end of the day one of the biggest threats against the scene is the domination from the Koreans.
The solution is one city, 8 teams, 15 players per team, and a weekly league to play in were all the players do their best to be the best. If we do that we will catch up to Korea in a couple of years but it cost a lot of money. Preferably it would had be done on each continent also.
Having an EG lair with 5 players streaming their ladder games on NA for a couple of hours each day on subpar Internet connection won't do anything good. Why do people always have to make it sound as if it's the Koreans fault for being good, not the foreigners for being way way worse? That's the SC mentality: nerf and blame what appears to be too strong. And thats the SC mentality, not bothering to read what he wrote but just flaming him? He nowhere blames the Koreans, he just mentions a situation that he thinks is detrimental to SC2, and doesnt blame Koreans in any way for it. It is semantics, but even though the events are essentially the same (that Koreans >>>>> foreigners), saying "At the end of the day one of the biggest threats against the scene is the domination from the Koreans." and "At the end of the day one of the biggest threats against the scene is the stagnation of foreign players." makes a huge difference. And as a competitive sport the problem should always be stagnation, not improvement. There is a lot of truth to that. I think that people "blame" (I honestly think it is just not choosing words carefully, rather than malicious intent) Koreans because the foreign scene established itself BEFORE the Koreans started coming to MLG. Then once they did and forced everyone to realize the level they were on, it seemed like they were intruding. So it is a pretty natural way to think. I don't think they are blaming the Koreans either, and I don't think anyone is saying that Koreans being good is a bad thing. But it shows your mindset when you say "They are too far ahead" rather than "I'm not doing enough". Winners don't have this kind of mentality.
Exactly. The argument people are making is that NA and EU need to be better and one of the ways to get better is to foster local competition, get better training and better support. No one is saying the NA and EU player’s aren’t talented, but that no one has the ability to train them at the level the Kespa teams can. No one is blaming Korean players. People are saying, we need that training and support for our players, because we know we have the talent.
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"Kespa and Blizzard will be working together for stable operation of teams and future tournament participation of the players, and will be looking to apply korean esports infrastructure made by proleague to the US and around the globe."
American and European Proleagues??? That would be huge. One can only hope...
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On March 26 2013 23:44 Geos13 wrote:
"Kespa and Blizzard will be working together for stable operation of teams and future tournament participation of the players, and will be looking to apply korean esports infrastructure made by proleague to the US and around the globe."
American and European Proleagues??? That would be huge. One can only hope...
I cannot describe how badass that would be. With the right rules and structure, that could be the best thing that has happened to SC2.
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On March 26 2013 23:37 Cybren wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 19:34 TeeTS wrote:On March 26 2013 19:19 Eury wrote:
People are seriously overestimating the SC 2 scene in Korea. Pretty much the whole BW scene never switched over, and if they did, they did it to LoL not SC 2. The SC 2 scene is heavily Western focused when it comes to popularity and fanbase, and Jaedong isn't even close to Idra's popularity in SC 2.
Ask Alex Garfield what his most valuable player is and I would bet you that it is Idra, Stephano, then HuK/Incontrol and maybe Jaedong after that.
Edit: Someone mentioned Grubby and he is probably the closest to Idra when it comes to popularity. At the end of the day whether it is Idra, Grubby or even Jaedong, I wouldn't call their play the "highest possible". I would just ask myself how we can call this a sport (yeah the word sport is actually a major part of e-sport) if we value entertainment factors over competition. Players like Idra, Incontrol, WhiteRa or Destiny before he retired are basically pure entertainers at this point. they are so far away from the top (even if you you look at the NA or EU scene), that they actually don't matter in competitive terms. Realizing that by themselves they put their focus on what they're good at: entertainment! They participate in talk shows, stream a lot and so on: community things. But whenever you do community things it means you neither practice nor regenerate. Which means you don't use that time for getting better. So it should be pretty natural that you don't have the best players in the world doing these community things on a high regular basis and this means it's pretty natural that the best players in the world might not have the biggest fan crowds. And this brings us back to the start. When we want to establish e-sports as a competitive gaming culture, we have to value competition over entertainment. But so far the scene is doing a great job there. Uhm no. Once you start broadcasting it and selling it as a product entertainment becomes #1. If you make money by getting people to watch your tournament, then you have players that get more people to watch your tournament. If that's "the best players" then you get the best players. If that's "the most popular players" you get the most popular players. It's the same in literally all sports.
To me, everybody seems to think that trying to follow the "classic" sport model is good for sc2.
Do you really want the SC2 competitive scene to become like soccer, with clubs/players/sponsors throwing so much money everywhere that you can't tell the difference anymore between fiction and actual competition ? Clubs spending millions to buy useless players just to sell more 100€ jackets ? I could go on on the topic but my english is far from good and I think you get my point.
If companies want to make players and teams "valuable" in marketing terms over competion, it's natural.
If the viewers start to want that too ... something somewhere went wrong.
But I guess that's just my opinion.
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On March 26 2013 23:55 Eartz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 23:37 Cybren wrote:On March 26 2013 19:34 TeeTS wrote:On March 26 2013 19:19 Eury wrote:
People are seriously overestimating the SC 2 scene in Korea. Pretty much the whole BW scene never switched over, and if they did, they did it to LoL not SC 2. The SC 2 scene is heavily Western focused when it comes to popularity and fanbase, and Jaedong isn't even close to Idra's popularity in SC 2.
Ask Alex Garfield what his most valuable player is and I would bet you that it is Idra, Stephano, then HuK/Incontrol and maybe Jaedong after that.
Edit: Someone mentioned Grubby and he is probably the closest to Idra when it comes to popularity. At the end of the day whether it is Idra, Grubby or even Jaedong, I wouldn't call their play the "highest possible". I would just ask myself how we can call this a sport (yeah the word sport is actually a major part of e-sport) if we value entertainment factors over competition. Players like Idra, Incontrol, WhiteRa or Destiny before he retired are basically pure entertainers at this point. they are so far away from the top (even if you you look at the NA or EU scene), that they actually don't matter in competitive terms. Realizing that by themselves they put their focus on what they're good at: entertainment! They participate in talk shows, stream a lot and so on: community things. But whenever you do community things it means you neither practice nor regenerate. Which means you don't use that time for getting better. So it should be pretty natural that you don't have the best players in the world doing these community things on a high regular basis and this means it's pretty natural that the best players in the world might not have the biggest fan crowds. And this brings us back to the start. When we want to establish e-sports as a competitive gaming culture, we have to value competition over entertainment. But so far the scene is doing a great job there. Uhm no. Once you start broadcasting it and selling it as a product entertainment becomes #1. If you make money by getting people to watch your tournament, then you have players that get more people to watch your tournament. If that's "the best players" then you get the best players. If that's "the most popular players" you get the most popular players. It's the same in literally all sports. To me, everybody seems to think that trying to follow the "classic" sport model is good for sc2. Do you really want the SC2 competitive scene to become like soccer, with clubs/players/sponsors throwing so much money everywhere that you can't tell the difference anymore between fiction and actual competition ? Clubs spending millions to buy useless players just to sell more 100€ jackets ? I could go on on the topic but my english is far from good and I think you get my point. If companies want to make players and teams "valuable" in marketing terms over competion, it's natural. If the viewers start to want that too ... something somewhere went wrong. But I guess that's just my opinion.
Well traditional sports seem to live pretty good of "selling 100Euro Jackets/Ticket sells/etc." and while the average esport fan probably is a lot less "spendhappy" than the average sport fan this could work out in the long run.
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On March 26 2013 23:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 23:44 Geos13 wrote:
"Kespa and Blizzard will be working together for stable operation of teams and future tournament participation of the players, and will be looking to apply korean esports infrastructure made by proleague to the US and around the globe."
American and European Proleagues??? That would be huge. One can only hope... I cannot describe how badass that would be. With the right rules and structure, that could be the best thing that has happened to SC2.
I agree. This is what SC2 needs.
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On March 26 2013 23:44 Geos13 wrote:
"Kespa and Blizzard will be working together for stable operation of teams and future tournament participation of the players, and will be looking to apply korean esports infrastructure made by proleague to the US and around the globe."
American and European Proleagues??? That would be huge. One can only hope...
For me BW was mostly Proleague and then a bit of OSL and MSL. PL for our scenes would be just insane.
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On March 26 2013 23:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 23:44 Geos13 wrote:
"Kespa and Blizzard will be working together for stable operation of teams and future tournament participation of the players, and will be looking to apply korean esports infrastructure made by proleague to the US and around the globe."
American and European Proleagues??? That would be huge. One can only hope... I cannot describe how badass that would be. With the right rules and structure, that could be the best thing that has happened to SC2.
How would this be any good? People in LR are now complaining about Koreans, who are not your Flash/Roro/Innovation/Rain (people like, let's say, bravO or Terminator) that "they are just terrible" when they play. These are maybe not main stars or the best players, but still A-teamers in their teams.
Now imagine the same level of players (who would have to play in such format) in US or EU teams. Do we really want to watch people that play 4 hours a day, 3 days a week? Do we want to watch 800 points masters players? I know I don't....
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On March 26 2013 23:05 JustPassingBy wrote:So nobody talking about the supposedly "leaked information" which have been posted on /vg/ yet? Show nested quote +iG !GKS1zrZdfk 03/25/13(Mon)20:32 No.30323648
Blizzard is going to announce that GSL and OSL are now 'partners'. Both will have three Starleagues a year, the same as it was when it was MSL and OSL. Blizzard will pay OGN and GOM about 2 million a year for working together. GSL champion gets seeded into the next OSL season. Same with OSL and GSL.
Reason why the foreigners in Korea are mad is because they are going to can GSTL after this season and Axiom-Acer isn't making the cut for the new Proleague coming in the fall. Startale, IM, MVP, and FXO will go to Proleague 100%. Dunno about Prime. HoSeo and Axiom-Acer not invited.
This sounds really good from my perspective...
But didn't TB say something about him being positive about this change earlier in this thread? Isn't he the manager of Axiom-Acer?
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Poland3775 Posts
On March 26 2013 22:42 mtn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 22:39 ETisME wrote:On March 26 2013 22:35 nimdil wrote:On March 26 2013 22:29 Eury wrote:On March 26 2013 22:16 opterown wrote:On March 26 2013 22:14 Eury wrote:On March 26 2013 22:08 Grettin wrote:On March 26 2013 22:04 Eury wrote:On March 26 2013 22:02 Dumbledore wrote:On March 26 2013 19:08 Eury wrote:
[quote]
Name me a more popular/famous SC 2 player than Idra. Boxer, Flash, Jaedong..The list goes on.. I said SC 2 and not BW. Two of those are actively playing and one is a coach/manager. I'd bet they still have more fans overall (around the globe) compared Idra. Why are we even talking about player popularity? That might had been true if the BW and SC 2 fanbase would be the same. It is not. The BW scene was almost non-existent in the west while it was very much alive in Korea. With SC 2 it has pretty much flipped. And why we are talking about popularity here is because some people claimed that viewers only cares about the "highest level of play", which is obviously not true. "Idra has a larger fanbase and outreach than pretty much the whole Korean scene put together" not true either of course viewers care about more than just pure skill, but idra is not the be-all-and-end-all foreigner lol It was an exaggeration mostly to point out what a sad shape the Korean SC 2 scene currently is in. Very few Koreans are watching foreign events at all, so whatever the amount of Korean fans Korean players have has almost no bearing on the viewership for MLG, Dreamhack etc. What generates a large amount of viewership for MLG is the popularity of the players in the west and I wouldn't put any Korean over an Idra, Grubby or Stephano in that. Except MC. I'd alway watch MC over IdrA and probably over Grubby. Between him and Stephano - it's a tie. The thing is - IdrA with his "Macro macro macro" style was rather boring to watch. The only really entertaining thing about his play was his trash talking and rage quitting. And I'm not sure that's really entertainment esport would like to market... Zvt was almost never boring to watch. Idra game shows how amazing a Zerg with good mechanics could be, great creep spread and muta harass, eating drops and run by etc. It was only until infestor style became dominate that he really began the downfall Idra never had good mechanics... That's a myth comparable to Unicorns.
That's not true. His early Ro8 GSL run was on power of his mechanics mostly as there was nothing really that exceptional about his game (like NesTea's decision making).
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On March 26 2013 23:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 23:44 Geos13 wrote:
"Kespa and Blizzard will be working together for stable operation of teams and future tournament participation of the players, and will be looking to apply korean esports infrastructure made by proleague to the US and around the globe."
American and European Proleagues??? That would be huge. One can only hope... I cannot describe how badass that would be. With the right rules and structure, that could be the best thing that has happened to SC2.
Would viewership be enough though? For EU and NA, it'll probably be online-only, with maybe the playoffs offline. There was a good amount of interest during WCS EU, but would that interest be sustained over an entire season?
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On March 27 2013 00:15 Ammanas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 23:47 Plansix wrote:On March 26 2013 23:44 Geos13 wrote:
"Kespa and Blizzard will be working together for stable operation of teams and future tournament participation of the players, and will be looking to apply korean esports infrastructure made by proleague to the US and around the globe."
American and European Proleagues??? That would be huge. One can only hope... I cannot describe how badass that would be. With the right rules and structure, that could be the best thing that has happened to SC2. How would this be any good? People in LR are now complaining about Koreans, who are not your Flash/Roro/Innovation/Rain (people like, let's say, bravO or Terminator) that "they are just terrible" when they play. These are maybe not main stars or the best players, but still A-teamers in their teams. Now imagine the same level of players (who would have to play in such format) in US or EU teams. Do we really want to watch people that play 4 hours a day, 3 days a week? Do we want to watch 800 points masters players? I know I don't....
It’s the long term plan of making competitive players in every region. The first teams that get involved are going to be worse than Koreans, for sure. But they will get better over time by getting coaches trained in Kespa Houses, training their players in Korea and having Korean training partner. Its about exporting the Korean play styles, training and dedication to other regions through a long term process. The only way that can happen is by having structure, consistent competitions that make it worth the time to export those skills and play styles. Its not about the short term goal of the next MLG, but looking years down the line.
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Poland3775 Posts
On March 26 2013 22:52 Irre wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 21:14 nimdil wrote:
While I would like for Proleague and GSTL to merge somehow I honestly hope OSL and GSL will be kept separate and both in starleague format.
I've seen many comments on lack of connection with koreans. Well: people from Germany, Ukraine, Italy, Mexico, France and Russia can communicate in english. However - except for Polt and a bit of MC - koreans don't. Just let them learn english so that we don't need a translator all the time. I don't think Life would become much worse of a player if he would spent 2h/day on learning english. In half a year - however - he will be a lot more marketable outside SK. 'MERICUH. Seriously I don't understand how people are so ignorant and egocentric. How about you take the time to understand some of Korean culture. Would that be too much effort while you are gulping down your 40 oz Mountain Dew and Double Big Mac? How about the fact that top level players are actually capable of putting personality into their style of play. When MKP or Polt or MC or Life or July or Parting or MVP or Nestea or DRG etc etc play, you can actually kind of know who is playing just by the game itself. Try that for anyone but like stephano or Huk in the foreigner scene. They have to either be BM or "entertaining" outside of the game, because they can't entertain well enough through the game itself. When you are some of the best players in the world, the games speak for themselves and people are stunned and excited to see the play. We saw that pretty clearly with MLG ro32 to the ro16 to the finals. I really hope that the best players don't get locked out of weekend events, because that will give me a whole lot less content to watch 
Don't act like jerk. I avoid made in usa fast food for many years and mountain dew is just meh.
I'm not talking that you can't learn anything about a player from his play, I'm saying it would be cool to be able to communicate with players without translators.
Yes, we adore korean champions. But it'd would be even better if could just communicate with them directly. How is it that if you look at all pro gamers from around the world, Korean and Chinese are the only one unable to speak english. That's not egocentrism - it'd would be egocentrism if was from UK, Australia or some other english speaking country. I'm not. Translators are necessary but they are not exactly practical.
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wow kespa laid it out in that last response. guess i will wait for the third until more comment
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lol how has the e-sports community not yet realized that announcements of announcements just creates ridiculous speculation and drama by now? Haven't we been here enough times? And they still act "disappointed" that people are creating confusion.
sigh.... such awful management of everything this scene has, makes me sad for e-sports. Just wait until april 3rd and announce it, it's not hard... Not like it's an event you need to give people heads up for to attend.
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On March 26 2013 23:22 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 22:54 opterown wrote:
No, the biggest threat is poor support and dedication from foreigners to allow koreans to dominate them. don't blame koreans for doing well Alex Garfield of EG pretty much said this on the Pulse(which everyone should watch, because it was super awesome) this week and that his largest mistake was not putting a coach in the EG lair to years ago. He took the blame for not supporting his player enough in the training department. The dedication part is also a problem for foreign players, but better support for the current talent may be the larger issue. Even if a foreign player practiced as much as Flash, Parting or Life, it would be enough because it wouldn’t be as efficient or focused. Without the support for dedicated foreign players, they will become frustrated with their inability to beat compete with the Korean all stars. Players moral is very important and having them feeling helpless or adrift is a huge threat to any growth in the scene. No one is going to try and compete if they know they won't be able get the training and support the Korean teams are providing. Still with the recent efforts from EG and TL in Proleague, I think they have turned the page on that issue. It will take time, but Garfield said that improving the training for his player is their focus for right now.
Additionally, keep in mind how much Korean teams recruit young players and develop them. Foreign players only join a team once they've done something huge and have already established a career. You don't see "EG picks up 15 year old GM Terran". If they did, they could pick rising players and develop them with the guidance of older, more established players.
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On March 27 2013 00:19 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 23:47 Plansix wrote:On March 26 2013 23:44 Geos13 wrote:
"Kespa and Blizzard will be working together for stable operation of teams and future tournament participation of the players, and will be looking to apply korean esports infrastructure made by proleague to the US and around the globe."
American and European Proleagues??? That would be huge. One can only hope... I cannot describe how badass that would be. With the right rules and structure, that could be the best thing that has happened to SC2. Would viewership be enough though? For EU and NA, it'll probably be online-only, with maybe the playoffs offline. There was a good amount of interest during WCS EU, but would that interest be sustained over an entire season?
I have no doubt it would that people would watch their local players compete against each other. People watch college football after all. The play isn’t going to be as amazing as GSL at first, but the story lines and personal investment will make up for that in the short term. Over time, the skill level of the league would rise through each time trying to get an edge on the other through training, coaching or more skilled players. Its long term, but the best for everyone. We will get our big events were everyone shows up, but also have more local competitions where new talent can be found and brought to the spotlight.
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On March 27 2013 00:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 00:15 Ammanas wrote:On March 26 2013 23:47 Plansix wrote:On March 26 2013 23:44 Geos13 wrote:
"Kespa and Blizzard will be working together for stable operation of teams and future tournament participation of the players, and will be looking to apply korean esports infrastructure made by proleague to the US and around the globe."
American and European Proleagues??? That would be huge. One can only hope... I cannot describe how badass that would be. With the right rules and structure, that could be the best thing that has happened to SC2. How would this be any good? People in LR are now complaining about Koreans, who are not your Flash/Roro/Innovation/Rain (people like, let's say, bravO or Terminator) that "they are just terrible" when they play. These are maybe not main stars or the best players, but still A-teamers in their teams. Now imagine the same level of players (who would have to play in such format) in US or EU teams. Do we really want to watch people that play 4 hours a day, 3 days a week? Do we want to watch 800 points masters players? I know I don't.... It’s the long term plan of making competitive players in every region. The first teams that get involved are going to be worse than Koreans, for sure. But they will get better over time by getting coaches trained in Kespa Houses, training their players in Korea and having Korean training partner. Its about exporting the Korean play styles, training and dedication to other regions through a long term process. The only way that can happen is by having structure, consistent competitions that make it worth the time to export those skills and play styles. Its not about the short term goal of the next MLG, but looking years down the line.
I agree with this. Question is, who is gonna pay for it. Teams don't have money, Blizzard would be plain stupid to pay for it since they would get basically nothing from it, tournaments could but they also don't have money to invest into something that could return in maybe 10 years. Fans could pay, but... really would YOU be watching terrible games of terrible players (ofc in contrast to GSL champion level), just because you would think that maybe, in 5 years, those players could actually become good?
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On March 26 2013 23:05 JustPassingBy wrote:So nobody talking about the supposedly "leaked information" which have been posted on /vg/ yet? Show nested quote +iG !GKS1zrZdfk 03/25/13(Mon)20:32 No.30323648
Blizzard is going to announce that GSL and OSL are now 'partners'. Both will have three Starleagues a year, the same as it was when it was MSL and OSL. Blizzard will pay OGN and GOM about 2 million a year for working together. GSL champion gets seeded into the next OSL season. Same with OSL and GSL.
Reason why the foreigners in Korea are mad is because they are going to can GSTL after this season and Axiom-Acer isn't making the cut for the new Proleague coming in the fall. Startale, IM, MVP, and FXO will go to Proleague 100%. Dunno about Prime. HoSeo and Axiom-Acer not invited.
If this is actually true, I like it.
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EPT
