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On March 26 2013 21:26 baba44713 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 21:23 Bagi wrote:
Would've been cool. In fact, any kind of plot twist would've been a very welcome addition. When was the last time you saw an actual twist in a Blizzard game? (and if you mention Tychus being a traitor or Raynor not being dead I'll find a way to punch you through the monitor) 
The scene where Sarah frees Jim from the prison cell was kinda nice. He does not kill her but he says "I'm done with you". Yay! Drama! And then he comes in the last mission to "help" us (seriously, the mission would be MUCH easier without Jim constantly needing help  )
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On March 26 2013 21:26 baba44713 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 21:23 Bagi wrote:
Would've been cool. In fact, any kind of plot twist would've been a very welcome addition. When was the last time you saw an actual twist in a Blizzard game? (and if you mention Tychus being a traitor or Raynor not being dead I'll find a way to punch you through the monitor)
I think you're mistaking
"Has a twist" with "has a twist i like"
Blizzard has pretty much had a twist in almost all their games. I can guarantee you the over in being Amon's bitch was a twist I did no see coming. Onyxia being the caretaker of the heir of stormwind was something I didn't see coming. Heaven getting co-ruled by a human Tyriel was something I did nót see coming.
Other twists I did not expect.
Primal Zerg's.
Us leaving behind a queen on a random space ship.
The realization arthas was holding back the scourge from killing everyone.
Etc...
Blizzard constantly has twists in their stories. You not liking them does not invalidate their existence.
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On March 26 2013 22:00 Sated wrote:I feel like a lot of the common criticisms of the storyline stem from inconsistencies with events that happened in Brood War. Since I never played the Brood War campaign and so have no knowledge of the storyline/no ability to recognise these inconsistencies, I feel that lets me enjoy the story more than I otherwise would. That said, the storyline is pretty basic, even if you take the situation presented to you at the start of WoL on face value without considering/knowing about the past lore. I definitely wouldn't say that it is good storytelling, it's just about adequate. EDIT: Show nested quote +(seriously, the mission would be MUCH easier without Jim constantly needing help ) Definitely. He always seems to get attacked at the most annoying moments, when your army is on the other side of the map or something like that. Eugh.
Meh, swarm host too good with siege tank support.
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eh how come Zeratul never told the new kerrigan to please move her zerg units away from Aiur his homeworld :/?
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i was replaying wol just now and have a question. what exactly happened to the rebellion? in wol we took the trouble to retrieve the recording from the adjutant, steal the odin and infiltrate korhal to broadcast that shit. all we got was a tv report with mengsk dodging reporters. in hots it is as though nothing had transpired.
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On March 26 2013 22:25 Kingsky wrote:
eh how come Zeratul never told the new kerrigan to please move her zerg units away from Aiur his homeworld :/?
legacy of the void cof
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On March 26 2013 22:26 OopsOopsBaby wrote:
i was replaying wol just now and have a question. what exactly happened to the rebellion? in wol we took the trouble to retrieve the recording from the adjutant, steal the odin and infiltrate korhal to broadcast that shit. all we got was a tv report with mengsk dodging reporters. in hots it is as though nothing had transpired.
Well Mengsk is a manipulative bastard, he probably messed around with the media to turn it into his favor or people simply didn't believe it, since Raynor is classified as terrorist after all.
Would you believe it if your current ruler got accused by a "famous terrorist"?
The idea was silly to begin with. Maybe it would have worked if people were already not trusting Mengsk but thanks to him controlling the media (you see this a lot in WoL how they always try to make dominion and Mengsk the good guys) 1 stunt aint gonne shit the public.
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On March 26 2013 22:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Blizzard has pretty much had a twist in almost all their games. I can guarantee you the over in being Amon's bitch was a twist I did no see coming.
You you're talking about the overmind i have a hard time not seeing it as a retcon. Even Tassadar returned from the dead! Of course it produces a plot twist, but at what cost?
On March 26 2013 22:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:
Primal Zerg's.
Seriously? Primal Zergs are an obvious retcon; it's certainly not a plot twist.
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On March 26 2013 22:32 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 22:26 OopsOopsBaby wrote:
i was replaying wol just now and have a question. what exactly happened to the rebellion? in wol we took the trouble to retrieve the recording from the adjutant, steal the odin and infiltrate korhal to broadcast that shit. all we got was a tv report with mengsk dodging reporters. in hots it is as though nothing had transpired. Well Mengsk is a manipulative bastard, he probably messed around with the media to turn it into his favor or people simply didn't believe it, since Raynor is classified as terrorist after all. Would you believe it if your current ruler got accused by a "famous terrorist"? The idea was silly to begin with. Maybe it would have worked if people were already not trusting Mengsk but thanks to him controlling the media (you see this a lot in WoL how they always try to make dominion and Mengsk the good guys) 1 stunt aint gonne shit the public.
There were riots in the streets. There was a press conference where Mengsk was humilliated and confronted with further evidence. I think OopsOopsBabys question makes perfect sense. The fact that anyone would have to come up with theories and excuses to explain loose ends in important plot points just shows how poorly written and structured the story is.
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On March 26 2013 22:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:
I think you're mistaking
"Has a twist" with "has a twist i like"
...
Other twists I did not expect.
Primal Zerg's.
Us leaving behind a queen on a random space ship.
The realization arthas was holding back the scourge from killing everyone.
Etc...
Blizzard constantly has twists in their stories. You not liking them does not invalidate their existence.
And *I* think you are mistaking a "twist" with "plot development".
Something happening you did not expect is not a twist. It's just that.. something happening without you expecting it. Twist literally means something happening which subverts your expectations and makes you re-think events happening previously - hence "twist". The ending of Diablo 1 was a twist - you were not defeating Diablo the entire game, you were playing his hand and preparing for him a new, better vessel. The intro for Brood War had a twist - UED wasn't in fact saving the marines, it was making sure Zergs are doing their job in killing Terran forces on the planet.
Nothing happening in SC2 is a twist. Queen being left behind is not a twist, it's just something happening in the story. Primal Zergs being happy grass-chomping dinosaurs is only a twist if you consider sloppy retcons to be twists. Saying that everything unexpected is a "twist" means you had your expectations set so low that anything not telegraphed from half a mile away is considered a twist (and let's face it, EVERYTHING in SC2 is telegraphed half a mile away). But no, nothing "twisty" about it, it's just basic storytelling - stories by default should be a series of events you cannot predict will happen, that's the whole point of them. Only small children like hearing the same story all over again and knowing in advance everything that will happen. But when you go past being 4 years old you *should* generally prefer and expect to actually get surprised how the story develops in any story you could call halfway decent, instead of waiting for it to go through the motions (which both WoL and HotS are all but too happy to do).
P.S. Let me end this post with a twist. Ready?
Cabbage. Huh, did not expect THAT, right? What a twist!
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What make's the story look so bad is that story telling in video games has improved a lot in the last 3 or 4 years. Also the impact of quality tv shows must be mentioned here, so that's a big reason why it feels so bad here. In the beginning Blizzards strategy games were quite simplistic and you couldn't make much wrong, since it was absolutely acceptable that a game wasn't focussing that hard on story, but ever since Warcraft 3 (which i personally still enjoyed, either because it was still better or because i was to young at that time) it went downhill with cheesy and esoteric themes, childish characerization and questionable stories. That's sad, but if we want to have good story writing we have to look at other games like Dishonored, Bioshock, Tomb Raider and so forth.
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Zerus backstabbing you was a twist, in that case. Sure, a twist I saw coming from the very first mission you heard about the primal zerg, but a twist by your standards.
Also, plot twists are not the be-all end-all of good storytelling. In fact, most plot twists do more harm than good.
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On March 26 2013 22:45 Warpish wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 22:32 Assirra wrote:On March 26 2013 22:26 OopsOopsBaby wrote:
i was replaying wol just now and have a question. what exactly happened to the rebellion? in wol we took the trouble to retrieve the recording from the adjutant, steal the odin and infiltrate korhal to broadcast that shit. all we got was a tv report with mengsk dodging reporters. in hots it is as though nothing had transpired. Well Mengsk is a manipulative bastard, he probably messed around with the media to turn it into his favor or people simply didn't believe it, since Raynor is classified as terrorist after all. Would you believe it if your current ruler got accused by a "famous terrorist"? The idea was silly to begin with. Maybe it would have worked if people were already not trusting Mengsk but thanks to him controlling the media (you see this a lot in WoL how they always try to make dominion and Mengsk the good guys) 1 stunt aint gonne shit the public. There were riots in the streets. There was a press conference where Mengsk was humilliated and confronted with further evidence. I think Assira's question makes perfect sense. The fact that anyone would have to come up with theories and excuses to explain loose ends in important plot points just shows how poorly written and structured the story is.
Riots mean nothing and be as easily resolved as formed. Just look at the real world, does every riot ends up with the ruler being overthrown? Mengsk is a smart bastard and just used the media to cover his ass.There is probably some time between end of WoL and start of HoTS and i doubt those riots have taken more then a week if even that.
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On March 26 2013 22:54 Acrofales wrote:
Zerus backstabbing you was a twist, in that case. Sure, a twist I saw coming from the very first mission you heard about the primal zerg, but a twist by your standards.
Also, plot twists are not the be-all end-all of good storytelling. In fact, most plot twists do more harm than good.
Yes, you cought me there. What I should have said SC2 does not have good twists. It is however chokeful of laughable and sometimes downright insufferable bad twists which, yes, do more harm and good (although with the bar set so low it is doubtful they can do too much harm).
My probably "favorite"is Raynor-shooting-Kerrigan twist. I literally found it so despicably bad I had to leave the campaign for a few days. I can deal with schlock, but man, that was openly insulting. Seriously, was there even one player older than, I dunno, eight, who went "OMG he shot her! He shot her! OMG OMG oh wait she is alive.. phew!". Damn it Blizzard!
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I don't think Blizzard really wanted us to believe he shot her. Because it was really that obvious that he didn't.
To me this was more like Raynor getting a message across. Like "Omg, I'm so fing pissed right now. I would really want to kill you, if only I could get myself to it. Yet I can't, since - you know - feelings and emotions n shit."
If only this wouldn't have all been for nothing and Raynor still shows up and is BFF with Sarah on Korhal. "It's been my pleasure... ALWAYS has." -.-
And QoB is like "Man, I sooo do love you, but you said we're done, so I'll respect that. Guess there's nothing left to talk about so I'll just float away."
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Twist in my eyes is something that completely changes the direction of the plot, hence the name >_>
The game doesn't really have anything unexpected, so you could say it has no real twists.
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On March 26 2013 23:03 baba44713 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 22:54 Acrofales wrote:
Zerus backstabbing you was a twist, in that case. Sure, a twist I saw coming from the very first mission you heard about the primal zerg, but a twist by your standards.
Also, plot twists are not the be-all end-all of good storytelling. In fact, most plot twists do more harm than good. Yes, you cought me there. What I should have said SC2 does not have good twists. It is however chokeful of laughable and sometimes downright insufferable bad twists which, yes, do more harm and good (although with the bar set so low it is doubtful they can do too much harm). My probably "favorite"is Raynor-shooting-Kerrigan twist. I literally found it so despicably bad I had to leave the campaign for a few days. I can deal with schlock, but man, that was openly insulting. Seriously, was there even one player older than, I dunno, eight, who went "OMG he shot her! He shot her! OMG OMG oh wait she is alive.. phew!". Damn it Blizzard!
I agree. I have no right to say much about story writing or twists in general, but that situation was pretty lame.
What really annoys me when playing through HotS, is Jims character changes through the game:
At the start: Sarah I love you.
At the bridge: Kiss kiss mwah babies.
(Gets captured, supposedly dead)
Sarah saves him: Fuck you, you killed Fenix.
Final mission: I've come to help you darlin'!
At the end: After 4 years of my life being shit, you have Sarah's mind again, but I'ma just watch you float away fuck knows where and wave.
Like wtf even is that. Does he even know where she's going? Wouldn't he want to tag along? Why isn't he even REMOTELY sad about her leaving AGAIN.
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On March 26 2013 23:02 Assirra wrote:
Riots mean nothing and be as easily resolved as formed. Just look at the real world, does every riot ends up with the ruler being overthrown? Mengsk is a smart bastard and just used the media to cover his ass.There is probably some time between end of WoL and start of HoTS and i doubt those riots have taken more then a week if even that.
I understand and agree with some of your argumentation. I’m not defending that Mengsk should have been overthrown after the events of WoL, but I want Blizzard to explain me why. Do I have to come up with my own theories to explain the outcome of major story arcs?
Note that the accusations were very serious. We’re talking about genocide using the Zerg as a tool. We’re not talking about riots because of a financial scandal or a corruption case.
In the beginning of HotS everything seems forgotten. Mengsk is the absolute ruler of the Dominion. Why? How? What happened? Does it mean that the Revolution missions were just filler with no real impact in the story?
I needed an explanation and that explanation was not given or even hinted.
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Come on. There are maybe 5 good twists in games that I can name off the top of my head... and all of them are either adventure, action adventure or RPG games, which are FAR better mediums for storytelling than an RTS will ever be.
Yes, SC and SC:BW had pretty epic moments and these are missing in SC2. However, a lot of the really tedious missions in the campaign are also missing. Instead of having a looooong campaign of "kill the other base" or "escort X to Y" (which was done easiest most of the time by killing the other base), interspersed with some awesome missions/cutscenes, you have a far more continuously enjoyable experience.
I don't think the story is bad. It doesn't have the epicness of SC1, but it makes up for it by being continuously pleasant. And no, I don't think anybody thought Raynor really shot Kerrigan, nor do I think that was the aim of that scene: it was to show the conflicting emotions Raynor had. He was incredibly angry at Kerrigan for just pissing away their future and turning herself back into the monstrosity that is the Queen of Blades. Yet, he couldn't help but feel that she was still Kerrigan, the ghost he was in love with.
Was it a momentous, epic, scene? No. But it served its purpose (which was not to shock us).
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EPT
