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On March 26 2013 22:46 baba44713 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 22:01 Thieving Magpie wrote:
I think you're mistaking
"Has a twist" with "has a twist i like"
...
Other twists I did not expect.
Primal Zerg's.
Us leaving behind a queen on a random space ship.
The realization arthas was holding back the scourge from killing everyone.
Etc...
Blizzard constantly has twists in their stories. You not liking them does not invalidate their existence. And *I* think you are mistaking a "twist" with "plot development". Something happening you did not expect is not a twist. It's just that.. something happening without you expecting it. Twist literally means something happening which subverts your expectations and makes you re-think events happening previously - hence "twist". The ending of Diablo 1 was a twist - you were not defeating Diablo the entire game, you were playing his hand and preparing for him a new, better vessel. The intro for Brood War had a twist - UED wasn't in fact saving the marines, it was making sure Zergs are doing their job in killing Terran forces on the planet. Nothing happening in SC2 is a twist. Queen being left behind is not a twist, it's just something happening in the story. Primal Zergs being happy grass-chomping dinosaurs is only a twist if you consider sloppy retcons to be twists. Saying that everything unexpected is a "twist" means you had your expectations set so low that anything not telegraphed from half a mile away is considered a twist (and let's face it, EVERYTHING in SC2 is telegraphed half a mile away). But no, nothing "twisty" about it, it's just basic storytelling - stories by default should be a series of events you cannot predict will happen, that's the whole point of them. Only small children like hearing the same story all over again and knowing in advance everything that will happen. But when you go past being 4 years old you *should* generally prefer and expect to actually get surprised how the story develops in any story you could call halfway decent, instead of waiting for it to go through the motions (which both WoL and HotS are all but too happy to do). P.S. Let me end this post with a twist. Ready? Cabbage. Huh, did not expect THAT, right? What a twist!
Did the plot tell you the direction it lead to? No. Was the new direction sensical within the confines of the story? Yes. => Twist.
The UED leaving marines behind is not a twist => its simply one of the two options they had. They either help, or leave. They chose to leave making the scene sad. That is not a twist.
Kerrigan being forced to protect the zerg instead of killing them in SC1 => twist. Getting left behind by Mengsk => sad. You put them together and you have a narrative twist that makes you sad.
Fenix is killed off in cut scene. He then comes back => Twist. He comes back as a Dragoon since he really did die but we simply were not aware of Protoss culture yet => conflicted feeling of happy to have him back but sad since he's a frankenstein. Put them together => You're glad he's not actually dead but you kind of miss the Zealot version.
A twist is something happening that you didn't see coming. A bad twist is one disconnected from the story, a good twist reinforces the story.
For example.
Planet of the Apes.
+ Show Spoiler +A good twist is when he finds the statue of liberty showing that he was on earth the whole time and now humans are being treated like humans used to treat animals.
A bad twist is when he finds the Lincoln Memorial and realized he travelled to a different timeline/dimension. It's bad not because its a cheesy twist, but because it doesn't reinforce the characters or the narrative of the story.
How much you like or can reconnnect the twist to the narrative is subjective. Cabbage doesn't make sense to me because you can't bring it back to the narrative of your rant. Being told that there were zerg left behind and they evolved on their own makes sense loosely with the overall plot of Starcraft (albeit one I dislike) but you can definitely see the logic they're going with.
Leaving a queen behind on a random space ship is a plot twist since before then Kerrigan did what she could to collect queens back into the swarm. But this one she left to keep floating towards Protoss space making it an obvious spoiler for LotV.
When playing WC3 did you really expect arthas to become a genocidal vengeful maniac who would kill his friend at the chance to slay demons? That is a great plot twist because it inverts how we think of the Arthur mythos while also showing you how good guys are defeated.
Orcs bumping randomly into Tauren is a bad plot twist because there's really no reason for them to exist at all. Nor did it flesh out the story. Both the tauren and Arthas' fall were sudden and random events but one was more meaningful than the other. But both are still plot twists.
A plot is a linear and predictive narrative that builds upon itself like an essay wherein what you see culminates into what comes next. When the narrative subverts the plot and goes a different direction or begins throwing stuff at you that it didn't talk about before => that is a plot twist. Badly put together plot twists are still plot twists => just bad ones.
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On March 27 2013 01:30 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +You may think it was good. There's nothing wrong with that. I thought that the scene was silly. Blizzard tried to create a cliffhanger and a dramatic moment and it didn't really worked for me.
I couldn't even take that scene seriously because Raynor had a gun in his cell. How bad is that? whats he going to do pull of a one man prison break with a single revolver?
Well, maybe you're right. Maybe we should adopt this idea and start sending people with guns to the prison. What can go wrong? Who would volunteer to be the Dominion soldier delivering the soup to an armed prisoner?
On March 27 2013 01:30 Forikorder wrote:
maybe mengsk left him the gun to tempt raynor into taking the cowards way out
Why not kill him then?
You are again finding excuses to plot holes and retcons. I see that you're trying to patch this horrible story and I admire you for that. You're cleary putting more thought and effort into the story than Blizzard did.
On March 27 2013 01:28 Gogo1 wrote:
Well, she obviously hid it in her hair, then. What are you, stupid?
I guess I am. I couldn't even appreciate the magnificent story of these masterpieces named WoL and HotS. ;D
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Well, maybe you're right. Maybe we should adopt this idea and start sending people with guns to the prison. What can go wrong? Who would volunteer to be the Dominion soldier delivering the soup to an armed prisoner?
Raynor was in maximum security behind a door thicker then he was he has a gun big deal
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I'm interested in the topic of the morality of Kerrigan's actions and the complicity of Raynor and Valerian in cooperating with her. I was thinking of doing a comprehensive post on it myself, but I really lack the expertise, since it involves some legal philosophy and such.
In any case, here are some thoughts about the issue.
Kerrigan goes through four different transformations: human, infested, deinfested, reinfested. During her first infestation she was largely controlled by the overmind and therefore has rather obviously no culpability for her actions, but as she is freed from its control she emerges as a complicated product of her zerg and human side. She retains all her memories and the personality of Sarah Kerrigan, but her moral center is radically different.
An interesting aspect to Brood War is that it leaves various options open: a dual personality; an inability to resist what her zerg nature suggests her; (control by Amon); or simply the old Sarah gone mad with her new-found power. The ability to remove her zerg infestation therefore doesn't solve anything by itself, there is the question whether the human Kerrigan is culpable for the wholesale slaughter perpetrated by the queen of blades and it would depend on the answer to a number of questions that I've mentioned before. I don't really have the knowledge to answer them though.
And certainly the fact that she shows no real guilt for the billions of people she killed, that she so easily gets back into the habit of controlling zerg, that she reinfests herself and then commits multiple acts of genocide can't speak in her favor. For all we know the only thing that the artifact really did to affect her evilness was to give her amnesia. The Heart of the Swarm campaign then represents an alternative to the Brood War story line: what does Kerrigan do, given personal power and a large zerg army? In the latter she is more obviously devious, in the former she seems to have a change of heart, but is that because she is 'cured' or simply because of amnesia requiring her to reinvent herself?
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On March 27 2013 01:49 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +Well, maybe you're right. Maybe we should adopt this idea and start sending people with guns to the prison. What can go wrong? Who would volunteer to be the Dominion soldier delivering the soup to an armed prisoner? Raynor was in maximum security behind a door thicker then he was he has a gun big deal
Im more surprised he wasn't wearing orange. I mean, when you chase down prisoners in the game they're in jumpsuits. Its possible everyone also had a gun in their bunk--but the jumpsuit seemed mandatory too. Jimmy not wearing it was just "off" to me.
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Well, in Forikorder's world, criminals are magically teleported to their cells, physical contacts are zero to none, so there is no need to confiscate weapons.
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On March 27 2013 02:14 Jindo wrote:
Well, in Forikorder's world, criminals are magically teleported to their cells, physical contacts are zero to none, so there is no need to confiscate weapons.
that seems to be somewhat what happened certainly seems like Raynor was jsut taken straight to the cell with no passing through any sort of check point
wouldnt be surprised if Nova flew him straight from Umoja to the prison ship and threw him in there herself
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On March 27 2013 00:08 therockmanxx wrote:
At this point Jim Raynor is not a very important part of the plot he is just there to be cool and having lines to support the other characters and get the story moving. In HotS he didnt have any important part in plot other than saving kerrigan in the last mission and that was not really necesary.
I dont consider there is any plot twist in HotS other than Kerrigan being Zerg again. After playing the Wings of liberty and expending a whole campaign saving her , we are back to the begining. Pretty much nothing change other than Mengs is dead and still dont know how is that gonna affect the terran domion.
Characters in SC2 dont have very deep motivation. This is pretty much the whole personality of each character:
Jim: I am a good guy. I love you kerrigan
Kerrigan: I cannot be guy anymore so I be bad instead. Also I hate Mengks
don't forget, Zeratul: Prophecies!
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On March 27 2013 01:43 Warpish wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 01:30 Forikorder wrote:You may think it was good. There's nothing wrong with that. I thought that the scene was silly. Blizzard tried to create a cliffhanger and a dramatic moment and it didn't really worked for me.
I couldn't even take that scene seriously because Raynor had a gun in his cell. How bad is that? whats he going to do pull of a one man prison break with a single revolver? Well, maybe you're right. Maybe we should adopt this idea and start sending people with guns to the prison. What can go wrong? Who would volunteer to be the Dominion soldier delivering the soup to an armed prisoner? Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 01:30 Forikorder wrote:
maybe mengsk left him the gun to tempt raynor into taking the cowards way out Why not kill him then? You are again finding excuses to plot holes and retcons. I see that you're trying to patch this horrible story and I admire you for that. You're cleary putting more thought and effort into the story than Blizzard did.
Don't you feel you're being a bit unfair with that conclusion? The HotS story unquestionably passed the hands of numerous people, and ultimately Blizzard decided that this was the best approach. I still think that Kerrigan brought the gun into the cell from her movements generally, but especially her hands. Where she had the gun could have been made clearer by Blizzard, and this is unfortunately an example of a somewhat poor execution.
I would like to emphasize the aspect of choice on Blizzard's end regarding the story of SC2. I see a lot of people blaming incompetence of Blizzard's writing department, but I don't think this is the fundamental issue here. I do not know for sure, but I believe that a major part of the team that worked on SC2 also worked on BW. This means that what some perceive as lack of skill is something that Blizzard deliberately decided to do. Others have investigated this further and I won't parrot them (this thread being one of them), but people still say that Blizzard can't write good stories anymore. I believe they can, but their stories are no longer designed for people like you.
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To be fair, in the Starcraft 2 Universe, providing an inmate with a gun is an significant improvement over providing your captive with a zerg army, scattered hapzardly across every room of your detainment facitility.
They've shown significant restraint and improvement in their prisoner of war decision making.
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On March 27 2013 02:35 nottapro wrote:
To be fair, in the Starcraft 2 Universe, providing an inmate with a gun is an significant improvement over providing your captive with a zerg army, scattered hapzardly across every room of your detainment facitility.
They've shown significant restraint and improvement in their prisoner of war decision making.
The first part's no issue. When the science team raised this with Valerian he gave them a hard look and said 'What could possibly go wrong?'
No stupidity there.
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Well, there seems not to be any problem with all the other vessels with zergs all over dominion space. Excepts when Raynor starts to blowing shit up.
It's the same reason we keep super-viruses. How else would you do science on zerg?
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On March 27 2013 03:55 Hubble wrote:
Well, there seems not to be any problem with all the other vessels with zergs all over dominion space. Excepts when Raynor starts to blowing shit up.
It's the same reason we keep super-viruses. How else would you do science on zerg?
small batchs?
we dont keep 50 tons of super virus, they dont need an entire brood to do research
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On March 27 2013 04:05 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 03:55 Hubble wrote:
Well, there seems not to be any problem with all the other vessels with zergs all over dominion space. Excepts when Raynor starts to blowing shit up.
It's the same reason we keep super-viruses. How else would you do science on zerg? small batchs? we dont keep 50 tons of super virus, they dont need an entire brood to do research
2 Ultras, less than 6 Hydras, 2 Lurkers and 50 Zerglings are barely an entire brood. 
Their mistake was to give kerrigan an hatchery. Without that there would be no problem at all. The station wasn't heavy on zerg.
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On March 27 2013 05:20 Hubble wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 04:05 Forikorder wrote:On March 27 2013 03:55 Hubble wrote:
Well, there seems not to be any problem with all the other vessels with zergs all over dominion space. Excepts when Raynor starts to blowing shit up.
It's the same reason we keep super-viruses. How else would you do science on zerg? small batchs? we dont keep 50 tons of super virus, they dont need an entire brood to do research 2 Ultras, less than 6 Hydras, 2 Lurkers and 50 Zerglings are barely an entire brood.
there are also infesters and more then 2 lurkers
also 50 zergligns? i finished first mission with easily 100 pretty sure the holding pens have more then 50 lings in them
also there are roachs around too
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10387 Posts
On March 27 2013 02:23 Gogo1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 01:43 Warpish wrote:On March 27 2013 01:30 Forikorder wrote:You may think it was good. There's nothing wrong with that. I thought that the scene was silly. Blizzard tried to create a cliffhanger and a dramatic moment and it didn't really worked for me.
I couldn't even take that scene seriously because Raynor had a gun in his cell. How bad is that? whats he going to do pull of a one man prison break with a single revolver? Well, maybe you're right. Maybe we should adopt this idea and start sending people with guns to the prison. What can go wrong? Who would volunteer to be the Dominion soldier delivering the soup to an armed prisoner? On March 27 2013 01:30 Forikorder wrote:
maybe mengsk left him the gun to tempt raynor into taking the cowards way out Why not kill him then? You are again finding excuses to plot holes and retcons. I see that you're trying to patch this horrible story and I admire you for that. You're cleary putting more thought and effort into the story than Blizzard did. Don't you feel you're being a bit unfair with that conclusion? The HotS story unquestionably passed the hands of numerous people, and ultimately Blizzard decided that this was the best approach. I still think that Kerrigan brought the gun into the cell from her movements generally, but especially her hands. Where she had the gun could have been made clearer by Blizzard, and this is unfortunately an example of a somewhat poor execution. I would like to emphasize the aspect of choice on Blizzard's end regarding the story of SC2. I see a lot of people blaming incompetence of Blizzard's writing department, but I don't think this is the fundamental issue here. I do not know for sure, but I believe that a major part of the team that worked on SC2 also worked on BW. This means that what some perceive as lack of skill is something that Blizzard deliberately decided to do. Others have investigated this further and I won't parrot them ( this thread being one of them), but people still say that Blizzard can't write good stories anymore. I believe they can, but their stories are no longer designed for people like you.
are you sure about that? You only need to look at the ending with the line that makes no sense (when it did previously in the context of leaked ending) to see that there's not much proofreading going around.
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On March 27 2013 07:31 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 02:23 Gogo1 wrote:On March 27 2013 01:43 Warpish wrote:On March 27 2013 01:30 Forikorder wrote:You may think it was good. There's nothing wrong with that. I thought that the scene was silly. Blizzard tried to create a cliffhanger and a dramatic moment and it didn't really worked for me.
I couldn't even take that scene seriously because Raynor had a gun in his cell. How bad is that? whats he going to do pull of a one man prison break with a single revolver? Well, maybe you're right. Maybe we should adopt this idea and start sending people with guns to the prison. What can go wrong? Who would volunteer to be the Dominion soldier delivering the soup to an armed prisoner? On March 27 2013 01:30 Forikorder wrote:
maybe mengsk left him the gun to tempt raynor into taking the cowards way out Why not kill him then? You are again finding excuses to plot holes and retcons. I see that you're trying to patch this horrible story and I admire you for that. You're cleary putting more thought and effort into the story than Blizzard did. Don't you feel you're being a bit unfair with that conclusion? The HotS story unquestionably passed the hands of numerous people, and ultimately Blizzard decided that this was the best approach. I still think that Kerrigan brought the gun into the cell from her movements generally, but especially her hands. Where she had the gun could have been made clearer by Blizzard, and this is unfortunately an example of a somewhat poor execution. I would like to emphasize the aspect of choice on Blizzard's end regarding the story of SC2. I see a lot of people blaming incompetence of Blizzard's writing department, but I don't think this is the fundamental issue here. I do not know for sure, but I believe that a major part of the team that worked on SC2 also worked on BW. This means that what some perceive as lack of skill is something that Blizzard deliberately decided to do. Others have investigated this further and I won't parrot them ( this thread being one of them), but people still say that Blizzard can't write good stories anymore. I believe they can, but their stories are no longer designed for people like you. are you sure about that? You only need to look at the ending with the line that makes no sense (when it did previously in the context of leaked ending) to see that there's not much proofreading going around.
Logistics. Calling back in voice actors costs money.
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On March 27 2013 04:05 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 03:55 Hubble wrote:
Well, there seems not to be any problem with all the other vessels with zergs all over dominion space. Excepts when Raynor starts to blowing shit up.
It's the same reason we keep super-viruses. How else would you do science on zerg? small batchs? we dont keep 50 tons of super virus, they dont need an entire brood to do research
That's completly dependend on what/how you research.
Like, the idea behind keeping that many zerglings could be that you actually are willing to kill a lot of them in the research process. E.g: If there is a 1:100 chance that a certain mutation will occur, you need a large group of them.
And we actually do keep a lot of superviruses for research. A lot in numbers, not in weight of course, because for statistical experiments (so basically all bio experiments) the amount counts - independend of the species. And 100g of supervirus is a fuckton of statistical evidence. 100g of zerglings is nothing. You need hundreds of zerglings to test certain things.
Even more, there is actually no real harm coming from them. Until someone - like Kerrigan - takes control of them, they are feral, so basically not really working together. Like, what Kerrigan did there was already the worst case scenario which is nothing compared to worst case scenarios when doing research on biological, chemical or nuclear weapons.
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On March 27 2013 08:33 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 04:05 Forikorder wrote:On March 27 2013 03:55 Hubble wrote:
Well, there seems not to be any problem with all the other vessels with zergs all over dominion space. Excepts when Raynor starts to blowing shit up.
It's the same reason we keep super-viruses. How else would you do science on zerg? small batchs? we dont keep 50 tons of super virus, they dont need an entire brood to do research That's completly dependend on what/how you research. Like, the idea behind keeping that many zerglings could be that you actually are willing to kill a lot of them in the research process. E.g: If there is a 1:100 chance that a certain mutation will occur, you need a large group of them. And we actually do keep a lot of superviruses for research. A lot in numbers, not in weight of course, because for statistical experiments (so basically all bio experiments) the amount counts - independend of the species. And 100g of supervirus is a fuckton of statistical evidence. 100g of zerglings is nothing. You need hundreds of zerglings to test certain things. Even more, there is actually no real harm coming from them. Until someone - like Kerrigan - takes control of them, they are feral, so basically not really working together. Like, what Kerrigan did there was already the worst case scenario which is nothing compared to worst case scenarios when doing research on biological, chemical or nuclear weapons.
or if your facility comes under attack and they break free and go on a killing spree
they may be feral but there still going to kill everything tehy can get there claws on
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On March 27 2013 08:39 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 08:33 Big J wrote:On March 27 2013 04:05 Forikorder wrote:On March 27 2013 03:55 Hubble wrote:
Well, there seems not to be any problem with all the other vessels with zergs all over dominion space. Excepts when Raynor starts to blowing shit up.
It's the same reason we keep super-viruses. How else would you do science on zerg? small batchs? we dont keep 50 tons of super virus, they dont need an entire brood to do research That's completly dependend on what/how you research. Like, the idea behind keeping that many zerglings could be that you actually are willing to kill a lot of them in the research process. E.g: If there is a 1:100 chance that a certain mutation will occur, you need a large group of them. And we actually do keep a lot of superviruses for research. A lot in numbers, not in weight of course, because for statistical experiments (so basically all bio experiments) the amount counts - independend of the species. And 100g of supervirus is a fuckton of statistical evidence. 100g of zerglings is nothing. You need hundreds of zerglings to test certain things. Even more, there is actually no real harm coming from them. Until someone - like Kerrigan - takes control of them, they are feral, so basically not really working together. Like, what Kerrigan did there was already the worst case scenario which is nothing compared to worst case scenarios when doing research on biological, chemical or nuclear weapons. or if your facility comes under attack and they break free and go on a killing spree they may be feral but there still going to kill everything tehy can get there claws on
Exactly. It's pretty safe to assume that they'd just kill themselves.
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