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On March 26 2013 23:32 LOLItsRyann wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 23:03 baba44713 wrote:On March 26 2013 22:54 Acrofales wrote:
Zerus backstabbing you was a twist, in that case. Sure, a twist I saw coming from the very first mission you heard about the primal zerg, but a twist by your standards.
Also, plot twists are not the be-all end-all of good storytelling. In fact, most plot twists do more harm than good. Yes, you cought me there. What I should have said SC2 does not have good twists. It is however chokeful of laughable and sometimes downright insufferable bad twists which, yes, do more harm and good (although with the bar set so low it is doubtful they can do too much harm). My probably "favorite"is Raynor-shooting-Kerrigan twist. I literally found it so despicably bad I had to leave the campaign for a few days. I can deal with schlock, but man, that was openly insulting. Seriously, was there even one player older than, I dunno, eight, who went "OMG he shot her! He shot her! OMG OMG oh wait she is alive.. phew!". Damn it Blizzard! I agree. I have no right to say much about story writing or twists in general, but that situation was pretty lame. What really annoys me when playing through HotS, is Jims character changes through the game: At the start: Sarah I love you. At the bridge: Kiss kiss mwah babies. (Gets captured, supposedly dead) Sarah saves him: Fuck you, you killed Fenix. Final mission: I've come to help you darlin'! At the end: After 4 years of my life being shit, you have Sarah's mind again, but I'ma just watch you float away fuck knows where and wave. Like wtf even is that. Does he even know where she's going? Wouldn't he want to tag along? Why isn't he even REMOTELY sad about her leaving AGAIN.
I think you're looking at those scenes in a far too isolated manner. I think the reason Raynor was pissed at the prison was not something completely random, as I perceive many here think. I think it was because Kerrigan, in once again becoming the Queen of Blades, sacrificed her humanity. This completely undermines what Raynor did for her in WoL, and he gets upset. Furthermore, I think he's afraid that she's once again the old Queen of Blades, who just wanted to kill everything. This impression is changed in one of the cutscenes before the invasion of Korhal, as Kerrigan agrees to hold her forces back (or something, I didn't quite catch that) so that Prince Valarian can evacuate the city. He then realized that Kerrigan was still fundamentally human, but also the leader of the Swarm.
Since Raynor has already realized that she has sacrificed her humanity, he comes to terms with himself that they can never be together (if memory serves me right, he has kind of a thoughtful facial expression after Kerrigan agrees to evacuate Korhal. If this is true, then we can assume that Raynor has given his relationship with Kerrigan much though before he joins the fight on Korhal). That's why he isn't sad when Kerrigan leaves - he knows they have no future together.
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On March 26 2013 22:25 Kingsky wrote:
eh how come Zeratul never told the new kerrigan to please move her zerg units away from Aiur his homeworld :/?
She doesn't have control of those broods. They served the overmind and are now mindless, feral, uncontrolled zerg.
Although she had the ability to take control of some Feral stuff in the campaign. Zeratul doesn't necessarily know that though, as far as he's aware the Zerg on Aiur are totally incapable of being controlled.
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She doesn't have control of those broods. They served the overmind and are now mindless, feral, uncontrolled zerg.
Although she had the ability to take control of some Feral stuff in the campaign. Zeratul doesn't necessarily know that though, as far as he's aware the Zerg on Aiur are totally incapable of being controlled.
actually they would ahve been Daggoths broods ther Overmind didnt do much hands on controlling he mainly dealt with the future
Like wtf even is that. Does he even know where she's going? Wouldn't he want to tag along? Why isn't he even REMOTELY sad about her leaving AGAIN.
look at his face, he looks like a puppy that got left behind
hes smart enough to realise that he and Kerrigan are never going to be able to gom somewhere, settle down and raise a family
Seriously? Primal Zergs are an obvious retcon; it's certainly not a plot twist.
not really a retcon, if we assume that the Zerus was mainly populated by Primal Zerg before the Overmind was created, and assuming the overmind didnt start out MCing the entirety of Zerus (makes sense) then its not odd that some extremely powerful Primals (like Zurvhan) would be strong enough to not be controlled by the overmind and could defend themselves against the swarm (through a combination of hiding and fighting)
as for why Zurvhan thinks Amon created the overmind,,, easy he doenst know the Xel'Naga exist so since he must have seen Amon he would assume that Amon was responsible for the creation of the overmind
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On March 26 2013 23:44 Gogo1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 23:32 LOLItsRyann wrote:On March 26 2013 23:03 baba44713 wrote:On March 26 2013 22:54 Acrofales wrote:
Zerus backstabbing you was a twist, in that case. Sure, a twist I saw coming from the very first mission you heard about the primal zerg, but a twist by your standards.
Also, plot twists are not the be-all end-all of good storytelling. In fact, most plot twists do more harm than good. Yes, you cought me there. What I should have said SC2 does not have good twists. It is however chokeful of laughable and sometimes downright insufferable bad twists which, yes, do more harm and good (although with the bar set so low it is doubtful they can do too much harm). My probably "favorite"is Raynor-shooting-Kerrigan twist. I literally found it so despicably bad I had to leave the campaign for a few days. I can deal with schlock, but man, that was openly insulting. Seriously, was there even one player older than, I dunno, eight, who went "OMG he shot her! He shot her! OMG OMG oh wait she is alive.. phew!". Damn it Blizzard! I agree. I have no right to say much about story writing or twists in general, but that situation was pretty lame. What really annoys me when playing through HotS, is Jims character changes through the game: At the start: Sarah I love you. At the bridge: Kiss kiss mwah babies. (Gets captured, supposedly dead) Sarah saves him: Fuck you, you killed Fenix. Final mission: I've come to help you darlin'! At the end: After 4 years of my life being shit, you have Sarah's mind again, but I'ma just watch you float away fuck knows where and wave. Like wtf even is that. Does he even know where she's going? Wouldn't he want to tag along? Why isn't he even REMOTELY sad about her leaving AGAIN. I think you're looking at those scenes in a far too isolated manner. I think the reason Raynor was pissed at the prison was not something completely random, as I perceive many here think. I think it was because Kerrigan, in once again becoming the Queen of Blades, sacrificed her humanity. This completely undermines what Raynor did for her in WoL, and he gets upset. Furthermore, I think he's afraid that she's once again the old Queen of Blades, who just wanted to kill everything. This impression is changed in one of the cutscenes before the invasion of Korhal, as Kerrigan agrees to hold her forces back (or something, I didn't quite catch that) so that Prince Valarian can evacuate the city. He then realized that Kerrigan was still fundamentally human, but also the leader of the Swarm. Since Raynor has already realized that she has sacrificed her humanity, he comes to terms with himself that they can never be together (if memory serves me right, he has kind of a thoughtful facial expression after Kerrigan agrees to evacuate Korhal. If this is true, then we can assume that Raynor has given his relationship with Kerrigan much though before he joins the fight on Korhal). That's why he isn't sad when Kerrigan leaves - he knows they have no future together.
But there's also Sarah's side to it. Apparently she loves/loved Raynor as much as he loves her. When she lost the chance to be with him forever (he supposedly died) she got so mad that her own life didn't mean anything to her any more. She new the horros of her transformation to full extent, yet she sacrifices herself of her own volition, because all that is left is to at least take revenge and kill the guy who took it all from her. No matter the cost.
Later she finds out that Jimmy's still alive, meanin she destroyed it all by herself. And he tells her to fuck off.
At this point Sarah might very well have suicidal tendencies. She's broken and because she doesn't know what else to do, she throws herself at the Dominion forces. Tells her fav broodmother "pls take care of my swarm, because chances are I won't survive this" and goes off.
Luckily Raynor doesn't really hate her that much, since he realized that she's still human after all and not the QoB. They defeat their common enemy and finally they are together and can talk about everything and spend some time togehter. But wait, Kerrigan discovered that she can fly, which is way cooler than Jimmy, so off she goes.
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At this point Jim Raynor is not a very important part of the plot he is just there to be cool and having lines to support the other characters and get the story moving. In HotS he didnt have any important part in plot other than saving kerrigan in the last mission and that was not really necesary.
I dont consider there is any plot twist in HotS other than Kerrigan being Zerg again. After playing the Wings of liberty and expending a whole campaign saving her , we are back to the begining. Pretty much nothing change other than Mengs is dead and still dont know how is that gonna affect the terran domion.
Characters in SC2 dont have very deep motivation. This is pretty much the whole personality of each character:
Jim: I am a good guy. I love you kerrigan
Kerrigan: I cannot be guy anymore so I be bad instead. Also I hate Mengks
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On March 27 2013 00:08 therockmanxx wrote:
At this point Jim Raynor is not a very important part of the plot he is just there to be cool and having lines to support the other characters and get the story moving. In HotS he didnt have any important part in plot other than saving kerrigan in the last mission and that was not really necesary.
I dont consider there is any plot twist in HotS other than Kerrigan being Zerg again. After playing the Wings of liberty and expending a whole campaign saving her , we are back to the begining. Pretty much nothing change other than Mengs is dead and still dont know how is that gonna affect the terran domion.
Characters in SC2 dont have very deep motivation. This is pretty much the whole personality of each character:
Jim: I am a good guy. I love you kerrigan
Kerrigan: I cannot be guy anymore so I be bad instead. Also I hate Mengks
What are you talking about? Raynor is one of the most important characters in HotS, as he is the sole reason that Kerrigan ultimately decides to once again become the Queen of Blades. Had she known that Raynor was alive the whole team, I think it's reasonable to think she would never have sacrificed her humanity. In doing so, she let go of any chance of having a relationship with Raynor ever again.
Also, hasn't it already been established that WoL wasn't completely useless, because now Kerrigan is free of Amon's corruption? This means that the Zerg won't end up as cannon-fodder to the hybrids in the destruction of everything in the universe. Under Kerrigan, the Zerg become a formidable ally to the opposition of the hybrids / Amon.
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On March 26 2013 23:29 zimms wrote:
I don't think Blizzard really wanted us to believe he shot her. Because it was really that obvious that he didn't.
To me this was more like Raynor getting a message across. Like "Omg, I'm so fing pissed right now. I would really want to kill you, if only I could get myself to it. Yet I can't, since - you know - feelings and emotions n shit."
Check out that cutscene one more time and pay attention to the framing (1:08 onward):
+ Show Spoiler +
You see a finger pressing the trigger, a close up of Raynor's face which suddenly shifts from preparing himself to sheer determination, then you hear a shot, two shots, and then camera shifts on bullets hitting the wall. So yes, I'm pretty sure Blizzard *did* want you to think he shot her, with the bullets close-up scene being the "reveal" and the "phew moment".
This is what majorly pissed me off - Blizzard thinking I'm THAT stupid to actually believe Raynor will kill Kerrigan midway through the game.
Had they wanted for that to be a character moment (and not an insufferable "twist"), they would have framed the shot completely differently. They would actually show Raynor suddenly shifting the gun to the right instead of stupidly hiding it. It would also provide a neat opportunity to show Kerrigan's face while the shots are going off - is she relieved? disappointed? satisfied? saddened?. You could also play out the rest of the scene silently, letting the faces of the characters reflect their thoughts. It wouldn't make the scene much less silly/cringeworthy but it would at least show a certain amount of respect for the viewer - here, we want this story to be about characters so we are showing you a *character development moment*. We are letting you get the feel for their relationship, letting you experience it, to figure stuff on your own rather than having the characters just proclaim loudly what they feel. But no - we get an atrocious "misdirection" scene followed by wooden-faced "I love you Jim" and cheesy "we are done". Ugh. Blergh.
P.S. And if it's not sad enough to have to suffer through this crap from a company previously known for having incredibly powerful cutscene in their games, you then read a bunch of Youtube comments for the linked video and see there are apparently loads of people who "teared up" on this scene. Seriously guys? THIS is what does it for you? Seriously?
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On March 27 2013 00:18 baba44713 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 23:29 zimms wrote:
I don't think Blizzard really wanted us to believe he shot her. Because it was really that obvious that he didn't.
To me this was more like Raynor getting a message across. Like "Omg, I'm so fing pissed right now. I would really want to kill you, if only I could get myself to it. Yet I can't, since - you know - feelings and emotions n shit."
Check out that cutscene one more time and pay attention to the framing (1:08 onward): + Show Spoiler + You see a finger pressing the trigger, a close up of Raynor's face which suddenly shifts from preparing himself to sheer determination, then you hear a shot, two shots, and then camera shifts on bullets hitting the wall. So yes, I'm pretty sure Blizzard *did* want you to think he shot her, with the bullets close-up scene being the "reveal" and the "phew moment". This is what majorly pissed me off - Blizzard thinking I'm THAT stupid to actually believe Raynor will kill Kerrigan midway through the game. Had they wanted for that to be a character moment (and not am insufferable "twist"), they would have framed the shot completely differently actually show Raynor suddenly shifting the gun to the right (also providing the opportunity to show Kerrigan's face while the shots are going off - is she relieved? disappointed? satisfied? saddened?). It wouldn't make the scene less cringeworthy but it would at least show a certain amount of respect for the viewer - here, we want this story to be about characters so we are showing you a *character moment*. But no - we get an atrocious "misdirection" scene followed by wooden-faced "I love you Jim". Ugh. P.S. And if it's not sad enough to have to suffer through this crap from a company previously known for having incredibly powerful cutscene in their games, you then read a bunch of Youtube comments for the linked video and see there are apparently loads of people who "teared up" on this scene. Seriously guys? THIS is what does it for you? Seriously? + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +
some of us didnt do meta analysis of the cutscene and got caught up in the emotions
im sorry you paused the cutscene midway through and did a deep analysis of it in order to ruin it for yourself some of us didnt
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On March 27 2013 00:23 Forikorder wrote:
some of us didnt do meta analysis of the cutscene and got caught up in the emotions
im sorry you paused the cutscene midway through and did a deep analysis of it in order to ruin it for yourself some of us didnt
Do you need to "pause the following clip midway" and "do a meta analysis" to know it's a bunch of crap, or do you know it immediately while watching it?
+ Show Spoiler +
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One positive thing to note though: I think Blizzard did a really good job with some of the facial expressions. In some scenes it was quite incredible how real some of those emotions came across. I guess some actors would be quite jealous.
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On March 27 2013 00:18 baba44713 wrote:Check out that cutscene one more time and pay attention to the framing (1:08 onward): + Show Spoiler + You see a finger pressing the trigger, a close up of Raynor's face which suddenly shifts from preparing himself to sheer determination, then you hear a shot, two shots, and then camera shifts on bullets hitting the wall. So yes, I'm pretty sure Blizzard *did* want you to think he shot her, with the bullets close-up scene being the "reveal" and the "phew moment". This is what majorly pissed me off - Blizzard thinking I'm THAT stupid to actually believe Raynor will kill Kerrigan midway through the game.
To be honest, had they just let him shot once then I could have bought into that Raynor shot Kerrigan. It's the following shots that gave it away.
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On March 27 2013 00:28 baba44713 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 00:23 Forikorder wrote:
some of us didnt do meta analysis of the cutscene and got caught up in the emotions
im sorry you paused the cutscene midway through and did a deep analysis of it in order to ruin it for yourself some of us didnt Do you need to "pause the following clip midway" and "do a meta analysis" to know it's a bunch of crap, or do you know it immediately while watching it? + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHse6q92lb0
the cutscene wasnt crap it was good (the SC2 scene not the crap twilight one)
if your only reason it was crap was "it was unbeleiveable since we all know Kerrigan wouldnt die" then it shows its YOU spoiling the scene for YOURSELF
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On March 27 2013 00:29 Gogo1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 00:18 baba44713 wrote:Check out that cutscene one more time and pay attention to the framing (1:08 onward): + Show Spoiler + You see a finger pressing the trigger, a close up of Raynor's face which suddenly shifts from preparing himself to sheer determination, then you hear a shot, two shots, and then camera shifts on bullets hitting the wall. So yes, I'm pretty sure Blizzard *did* want you to think he shot her, with the bullets close-up scene being the "reveal" and the "phew moment". This is what majorly pissed me off - Blizzard thinking I'm THAT stupid to actually believe Raynor will kill Kerrigan midway through the game. To be honest, had they just let him shot once then I could have bought into that Raynor shot Kerrigan. It's the following shots that gave it away.
I wholeheartily agree with that because I still remember Raynor's gun from WoL. It only had one bullet ( although it was actually intended for Mengsk ).
Now if Kerrigan would have given him that exact gun and he shot the bullet past her, that would have been an even bigger moment of realization that he had come to terms with himself, that he is not able to kill her even in her Zerg form.
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On March 27 2013 00:28 baba44713 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 00:23 Forikorder wrote:
some of us didnt do meta analysis of the cutscene and got caught up in the emotions
im sorry you paused the cutscene midway through and did a deep analysis of it in order to ruin it for yourself some of us didnt Do you need to "pause the following clip midway" and "do a meta analysis" to know it's a bunch of crap, or do you know it immediately while watching it? + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHse6q92lb0
What the hell of logic are you following. By the same logic every chase scene from movies where main dude is fighting bad guys is stupid shit since you know they won't kill the main character with x time to go for the movie.
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On March 27 2013 00:37 Erinyes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 00:29 Gogo1 wrote:On March 27 2013 00:18 baba44713 wrote:Check out that cutscene one more time and pay attention to the framing (1:08 onward): + Show Spoiler + You see a finger pressing the trigger, a close up of Raynor's face which suddenly shifts from preparing himself to sheer determination, then you hear a shot, two shots, and then camera shifts on bullets hitting the wall. So yes, I'm pretty sure Blizzard *did* want you to think he shot her, with the bullets close-up scene being the "reveal" and the "phew moment". This is what majorly pissed me off - Blizzard thinking I'm THAT stupid to actually believe Raynor will kill Kerrigan midway through the game. To be honest, had they just let him shot once then I could have bought into that Raynor shot Kerrigan. It's the following shots that gave it away. I wholeheartily agree with that because I still remember Raynor's gun from WoL. It only had one bullet ( although it was actually intended for Mengsk ). Now if Kerrigan would have given him that exact gun and he shot the bullet past her, that would have been an even bigger moment of realization that he had come to terms with himself, that he is not able to kill her even in her Zerg form.
he used that one bullet on Tychus
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On March 27 2013 00:03 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +Seriously? Primal Zergs are an obvious retcon; it's certainly not a plot twist. not really a retcon, if we assume that the Zerus was mainly populated by Primal Zerg before the Overmind was created, and assuming the overmind didnt start out MCing the entirety of Zerus (makes sense) then its not odd that some extremely powerful Primals (like Zurvhan) would be strong enough to not be controlled by the overmind and could defend themselves against the swarm (through a combination of hiding and fighting)
You are speculating. You are assuming things and coming up with theories to fix the story.
I’m sorry but I disagree, it is a retcon.
From the Starcraft Manual:
“The Zerg left the lifeless, burning world of Zerus and laid waste to every planet they found along their path towards the Protoss Homeworld.”
On March 27 2013 00:32 Forikorder wrote:
the cutscene wasnt crap it was good (the SC2 scene not the crap twilight one)
if your only reason it was crap was "it was unbeleiveable since we all know Kerrigan wouldnt die" then it shows its YOU spoiling the scene for YOURSELF
You may think it was good. There's nothing wrong with that. I thought that the scene was silly. Blizzard tried to create a cliffhanger and a dramatic moment and it didn't really worked for me.
I couldn't even take that scene seriously because Raynor had a gun in his cell. How bad is that?
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On March 27 2013 01:19 Warpish wrote:
I couldn't even take that scene seriously because Raynor had a gun is his cell. How bad is that?
You can kind of explain it by saying that Kerrigan got it off the Hyperion. It's a really weak argument, but it's the best I can think of to explain the scene.
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On March 27 2013 01:21 Gogo1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 01:19 Warpish wrote:
I couldn't even take that scene seriously because Raynor had a gun is his cell. How bad is that?
You can kind of explain it by saying that Kerrigan got it off the Hyperion. It's a really weak argument, but it's the best I can think of to explain the scene.
Unfortunately that’s not enough because in the cutscene we clearly see Kerrigan’s hands when she enters the cell and they’re empty.
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On March 27 2013 01:27 Warpish wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 01:21 Gogo1 wrote:On March 27 2013 01:19 Warpish wrote:
I couldn't even take that scene seriously because Raynor had a gun is his cell. How bad is that?
You can kind of explain it by saying that Kerrigan got it off the Hyperion. It's a really weak argument, but it's the best I can think of to explain the scene. Unfortunately that’s not enough because in the cutscene we clearly see Kerrigan’s hands when she enters the cell and they’re empty.
Well, she obviously hid it in her hair, then. What are you, stupid?
EDIT: For those of you who didn't spot it, I'm was sarcastic.
But in all seriousness, watching the cutscene again, I still get the impression that she placed the gun in his hand (approaching him, and the way she's holding his hands). Where she had the gun is still a mystery, and admittedly, this was poorly executed by Blizzard. Maybe she has a secret pouch on her lower back or something?
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You may think it was good. There's nothing wrong with that. I thought that the scene was silly. Blizzard tried to create a cliffhanger and a dramatic moment and it didn't really worked for me.
I couldn't even take that scene seriously because Raynor had a gun in his cell. How bad is that?
whats he going to do pull of a one man prison break with a single revolver?
maybe mengsk left him the gun to tempt raynor into taking the cowards way out
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EPT
