EPTIMO Dehaka really annoying to me. Normally I enjoy listening to character dialogues, but everytime I speak to him its always something like "blablabla NEED ESSENCE". He never really would say anything interesting. I eventually just skipped his dialogue midway in if he mentions essence.
[Story spoilers!!] Heart of the HOTS continued - Page 33
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Yonex204
Canada9 Posts
IMO Dehaka really annoying to me. Normally I enjoy listening to character dialogues, but everytime I speak to him its always something like "blablabla NEED ESSENCE". He never really would say anything interesting. I eventually just skipped his dialogue midway in if he mentions essence. | ||
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Saturio
Netherlands37 Posts
On March 18 2013 06:10 Yonex204 wrote: For anyone that played Mass Effect, did anyone noticed how similar Abathur was to Mordin Solus? They have the same kind of speech pattern, and on top of that, they are both are geneticists. I couldn't help to think that Abathur is heavily inspired by Mordin. IMO Dehaka really annoyed me. Normally I enjoy listening to character dialogues, but everytime I speak to him its always something like "blablabla NEED ESSENCE". He never really would say anything interesting. I eventually just skipped his dialogue midway in if he mentions essence. yeah I noticed that too, and judging from the rest of the thread he wasn't the only thing inspired by ME. | ||
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CYFAWS
Sweden275 Posts
2: people complaining about others being upset about the story.. I don't know where to start. This shit matters to me. It's not just a matter of taste, my fucking childhood got raped. 3: I never got the amount of flak WOL got. Sure it was dumb and cheesy and everything was made lamer than it was in BW. Still okish imo. That anybody can rate it below HOTS which is an insulting pile of stinking shit is beyond me. | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
On March 18 2013 06:10 Yonex204 wrote: For anyone that played Mass Effect, did anyone noticed how similar Abathur was to Mordin Solus? They have the same kind of speech pattern, and on top of that, they are both are geneticists. I couldn't help to think that Abathur is heavily inspired by Mordin. IMO Dehaka really annoyed me. Normally I enjoy listening to character dialogues, but everytime I speak to him its always something like "blablabla NEED ESSENCE". He never really would say anything interesting. I eventually just skipped his dialogue midway in if he mentions essence. There's a similarity between the two, but wouldn't you say Abathur was the most interesting character in HotS? Also, I believe one of the writers from ME actually works for Blizzard now. | ||
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awakenx
United States341 Posts
otherwise i thought it was an alright campaign, but there were too many conflicting details... | ||
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FrostedMiniWheats
United States30730 Posts
On March 18 2013 08:59 awakenx wrote: I just spit out my drink when Kerrigan flew away at the end, that was just stupid. otherwise i thought it was an alright campaign, but there were too many conflicting details... Not to mention the DBZ-esque battle with Narud. I was laughing the entire time I was doing that mission. Kerrigan is Goku | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On March 17 2013 08:05 Existor wrote: Some things are different from leaked ending. Like some removed stupid quotes and added Xel'Naga artifact whicn wasn't in leaked ending Whether or not the artifact was physically there/visible in that video I'd say that it was implied to be there (nearby at least). Anyway, One of the more memorable (while perhaps not most significant) issues I had with the HotS campaign was a scripting thing; I think it happened lots in WoL as well: Characters would always say the name of the person they see or are talking to (when it was unnecessary). This was particularly the case with Kerrigan I'd say, but also Arcturus and Raynor I guess. I presume at least SOME of it was probably done to inform the viewer what's going on (who's who), but to do that you only need to say it ONCE, not every damn time with every conversation between any human characters throughout the whole game! They say their names as if it somehow hurts the person, as if their name was a secret or an insult or something. | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
Metzen is the worst. This dialogue is legitimately worse than what you'll hear in Grey's Anatomy. Even if you disagree about retconning or flimsy story lines or inconsistent characters, you have to admit that the dialogue is atrocious. You can't tell a decent story if the characters constantly say the dumbest, cheesiest shit in the world. | ||
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Skirmjan
Italy190 Posts
On March 17 2013 23:42 Sbrubbles wrote: Then again, after she backstabs everyone and kills Duke: Kerrigan: Oh come on Arcturus, did you really think I'd allow you to come into power again? You practically fed me to the Zerg on Tarsonis. You're directly responsible for the hell I've been through. Did you honestly think I'd let you get away with that? Mengsk : But you said revenge was secondary to defeating the UED! Kerrigan: I lied. I liberated this planet because it was the UED's primary staging point, not because I was under any obligation to you. I used you to destroy the Psi Disruptor. and now that I've got my broods back you're no longer necessary for my plans. I think I'll leave you here, Arcturus, among the ashes of your precious Dominion. I want you to live to see me rise to power and I want to always remember, in your most private moments, that it was you who turned me loose in the first place. I think it was more that she wanted revenge, but to her leaving Arcturus alive amist his destroyed dominion while she became queen of the sector was enough. She could have easily killed him then and there but didn't; she was content in her revenge! My biggest beef with WoL and HotS is the change in characterization from SC1/BW, especially in relation to Kerrigan. It's not like Kerrigan's character was ever really clear, she's just sooo deeply conflicted on so many levels, for istance, she has this dialogue on char just after leaving her transformation cocoon: Raynor:Mother of god, Kerrigan what have they done to you??! ...Sarah, is that really you? Kerrigan:To an extent, and far more than i once was Jim! You shouldn't have come here! Raynor: But the dreams! i dreamed you were still alive, and that somehow you were calling to me! Kerrigan: I was,while i was in the chrysalids i istinctively reached out to you and arcturus telepathically... apparently Arcturus sent Duke here to reclaim me, but that was then Jim, i'm one of the zerg now, and i like what i am! you can't imagine how that feels! Raynor:So, now are you going to kill me darlin'? Kerrigan:That is certainly within my power, but you're not a threat to me Jim, be smart, leave here now and never seek to confront the zerg again! Raynor:Doesn't look like i have much choice.... Then again, she was mind-controlled by the overmind then, so it is possible she might be forced into being happy as a zerg, although this means that the mindcontrol is strong enough to affect her feelings about herself, but not strong enough to make her kill Jim Raynor, as the swarm has no reason to leave him alive or to have human mercy. By the way, these are the orders given by the Overmind at the start of the mission (Episode II, Agent of the Swarm) Zasz:The emanations of the Chrysalis have called even more of our enemies to Char! The Overmind:These too shall be eradicated by your hand, Cerebrate, for you grow more cunning with each passing battle. Indeed, you are a testament to my will and the fury of the Swarm.Yet first you must stay your wrath,and watch over the Chrysalis a little longer a while longer, for the very hour of the sleepers rebirth is at hand, and soon my greatest creation shall be loosed. And honestly,i'd see that as "guard the Chrysalis, eradicate the enemies", no room for "let the enemy run away even thought you could kill them", and yet the Queen of Blades lets Raynor leave. While talking of old love is somewhat far-fetched, that is clearly a very strong bond, i'd say... besides, Raynor himself would love to have her back even after she's already a mass murderer I know what you mean, Fenix. I'd love to believe that she's on the level,but there's a part of me that just knows better Raynor would love to have her back to sanity/humanity, but he's no idiot and rightly fears that she might still be corrupted after the death of the Overmind, and even tho this is before the betrayal of Fenix, she already did terrible things, so he clearly doesn't place those murders on Sarah Kerrigan's shoulders, he places them on the monster she has become. now to OP's quoted stuff Who are all of these ridiculous Zerg characters coming out of the woodwork and why should I care about them? Is this Chris Metzen's idea of characterization? Why is Stukov back from the dead? So, i guess you would've liked a Zerg campaign with no self-aware supporting Zerg characters, with just Kerrigan as a protagonist? I wouldn't. Remember that the vanilla Starcraft Zerg campaign had the overmind, and his cerebrates (although you only see 2-3 of them, there are many more around), and the leader of the swarm has a clear need of smart underlings in bw (Kerrigan employs Duran and an enslaved cerebrate during the Brood Wars(the player character)), it's only natural that Kerrigan had to remake more underlings, the matriarchs, as her swarm grew again. About Stukov, take your complaint to the bw section please, as his resurrection is part of the Nintendo 64 campaign of Brood War (released in 2000,mission Resurrection IV mission) and while him being reinfested again is part of the new story (he addresses it in a dialogue), it was nice to see him again tbh. Why does Kerrigan need so much power to kill Mengsk? He is JUST A GUY He's just the guy who commands the other half of the fleet that nearly killed her before, is occupying Char, probably is still in possession of the Xel Naga WeaponofMassDestruction that wiped out 90% of her strongest brood and herself, and she also lost a ton of psionic power during her ritransformation (it's necessary to control the zerg, remember?), which is why a good 90% of her matriarchs are rogue and do not recognize her at the start of the campaign. Why do the game's antagonists have no speaking lines that say anything other than "you suck and you'll never beat me?" That's very unfortunate, however it is also true in BroodWar, the bad guy rarely speaks any interesting lines while you're fighting against them*,however bw enjoys the fact that everyone you fight except the confederates (who come off as morons as a result) has been a previous protagonist of the story, and thus has been able to tell the story from his POV.... Sc2 suffers a lot from "low screen time", almost as much as a TV series adapted from a book does. *List of the main bad guys in each campaign: + Show Spoiler + Episode 1:Confederacy Episode 2:The protoss (although Tassadar does have nice lines, but in this campaign you are the bad guys) Episode 3:The Swarm Episode 4:The leaderless Swarm Episode 5:Dominion Episode 6:UED, although the ending cinematic is the really good exception Oh, and could we ditch the name "Queen of Blades" already? It sounds freaking idiotic and doesn't signify anything about the character except that hurr durr blades are pretty cool and so is Kerrigan I guess. Well, she isn't the QoB anymore i guess, she was in bw, but now i guess she's the "primal queen" or something like that... but if the name was ever truly ditched expect a lot of rabid fans^^ PS:It's nice to see a very neutral OP , with a long wall of text which is well written(although i personally find questionable and somewhat passive-aggressive, it is clearly well written)supporting the OP's opinion, and basically two one liners representing a different point of view... PS2:I voted decent, better than WoL, and i'm hoping for the good trend to keep up to finally have the good finale we deserve to the story of LotV. | ||
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iamcaustic
Canada1509 Posts
On March 18 2013 12:58 Skirmjan wrote: + Show Spoiler + On March 17 2013 23:42 Sbrubbles wrote: Then again, after she backstabs everyone and kills Duke: Kerrigan: Oh come on Arcturus, did you really think I'd allow you to come into power again? You practically fed me to the Zerg on Tarsonis. You're directly responsible for the hell I've been through. Did you honestly think I'd let you get away with that? Mengsk : But you said revenge was secondary to defeating the UED! Kerrigan: I lied. I liberated this planet because it was the UED's primary staging point, not because I was under any obligation to you. I used you to destroy the Psi Disruptor. and now that I've got my broods back you're no longer necessary for my plans. I think I'll leave you here, Arcturus, among the ashes of your precious Dominion. I want you to live to see me rise to power and I want to always remember, in your most private moments, that it was you who turned me loose in the first place. I think it was more that she wanted revenge, but to her leaving Arcturus alive amist his destroyed dominion while she became queen of the sector was enough. She could have easily killed him then and there but didn't; she was content in her revenge! My biggest beef with WoL and HotS is the change in characterization from SC1/BW, especially in relation to Kerrigan. It's not like Kerrigan's character was ever really clear, she's just sooo deeply conflicted on so many levels, for istance, she has this dialogue on char just after leaving her transformation cocoon: Raynor:Mother of god, Kerrigan what have they done to you??! ...Sarah, is that really you? Kerrigan:To an extent, and far more than i once was Jim! You shouldn't have come here! Raynor: But the dreams! i dreamed you were still alive, and that somehow you were calling to me! Kerrigan: I was,while i was in the chrysalids i istinctively reached out to you and arcturus telepathically... apparently Arcturus sent Duke here to reclaim me, but that was then Jim, i'm one of the zerg now, and i like what i am! you can't imagine how that feels! Raynor:So, now are you going to kill me darlin'? Kerrigan:That is certainly within my power, but you're not a threat to me Jim, be smart, leave here now and never seek to confront the zerg again! Raynor:Doesn't look like i have much choice.... Then again, she was mind-controlled by the overmind then, so it is possible she might be forced into being happy as a zerg, although this means that the mindcontrol is strong enough to affect her feelings about herself, but not strong enough to make her kill Jim Raynor, as the swarm has no reason to leave him alive or to have human mercy. By the way, these are the orders given by the Overmind at the start of the mission (Episode II, Agent of the Swarm) Zasz:The emanations of the Chrysalis have called even more of our enemies to Char! The Overmind:These too shall be eradicated by your hand, Cerebrate, for you grow more cunning with each passing battle. Indeed, you are a testament to my will and the fury of the Swarm.Yet first you must stay your wrath,and watch over the Chrysalis a little longer a while longer, for the very hour of the sleepers rebirth is at hand, and soon my greatest creation shall be loosed. And honestly,i'd see that as "guard the Chrysalis, eradicate the enemies", no room for "let the enemy run away even thought you could kill them", and yet the Queen of Blades lets Raynor leave. While talking of old love is somewhat far-fetched, that is clearly a very strong bond, i'd say... besides, Raynor himself would love to have her back even after she's already a mass murderer I know what you mean, Fenix. I'd love to believe that she's on the level,but there's a part of me that just knows better Raynor would love to have her back to sanity/humanity, but he's no idiot and rightly fears that she might still be corrupted after the death of the Overmind, and even tho this is before the betrayal of Fenix, she already did terrible things, so he clearly doesn't place those murders on Sarah Kerrigan's shoulders, he places them on the monster she has become. now to OP's quoted stuff Who are all of these ridiculous Zerg characters coming out of the woodwork and why should I care about them? Is this Chris Metzen's idea of characterization? Why is Stukov back from the dead? So, i guess you would've liked a Zerg campaign with no self-aware supporting Zerg characters, with just Kerrigan as a protagonist? I wouldn't. Remember that the vanilla Starcraft Zerg campaign had the overmind, and his cerebrates (although you only see 2-3 of them, there are many more around), and the leader of the swarm has a clear need of smart underlings in bw (Kerrigan employs Duran and an enslaved cerebrate during the Brood Wars(the player character)), it's only natural that Kerrigan had to remake more underlings, the matriarchs, as her swarm grew again. About Stukov, take your complaint to the bw section please, as his resurrection is part of the Nintendo 64 campaign of Brood War (released in 2000,mission Resurrection IV mission) and while him being reinfested again is part of the new story (he addresses it in a dialogue), it was nice to see him again tbh. Why does Kerrigan need so much power to kill Mengsk? He is JUST A GUY He's just the guy who commands the other half of the fleet that nearly killed her before, is occupying Char, probably is still in possession of the Xel Naga WeaponofMassDestruction that wiped out 90% of her strongest brood and herself, and she also lost a ton of psionic power during her ritransformation (it's necessary to control the zerg, remember?), which is why a good 90% of her matriarchs are rogue and do not recognize her at the start of the campaign. Why do the game's antagonists have no speaking lines that say anything other than "you suck and you'll never beat me?" That's very unfortunate, however it is also true in BroodWar, the bad guy rarely speaks any interesting lines while you're fighting against them*,however bw enjoys the fact that everyone you fight except the confederates (who come off as morons as a result) has been a previous protagonist of the story, and thus has been able to tell the story from his POV.... Sc2 suffers a lot from "low screen time", almost as much as a TV series adapted from a book does. *List of the main bad guys in each campaign: + Show Spoiler + Episode 1:Confederacy Episode 2:The protoss (although Tassadar does have nice lines, but in this campaign you are the bad guys) Episode 3:The Swarm Episode 4:The leaderless Swarm Episode 5:Dominion Episode 6:UED, although the ending cinematic is the really good exception Oh, and could we ditch the name "Queen of Blades" already? It sounds freaking idiotic and doesn't signify anything about the character except that hurr durr blades are pretty cool and so is Kerrigan I guess. Well, she isn't the QoB anymore i guess, she was in bw, but now i guess she's the "primal queen" or something like that... but if the name was ever truly ditched expect a lot of rabid fans^^ PS:It's nice to see a very neutral OP , with a long wall of text which is well written(although i personally find questionable and somewhat passive-aggressive, it is clearly well written)supporting the OP's opinion, and basically two one liners representing a different point of view... PS2:I voted decent, better than WoL, and i'm hoping for the good trend to keep up to finally have the good finale we deserve to the story of LotV. Oh my goodness, another person that actually paid attention and isn't just riding the foggy nostalgia train. Such a refreshing read, I have to say.  | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
It's not like Kerrigan's character was ever really clear, she's just sooo deeply conflicted on so many levels, for istance, she has this dialogue on char just after leaving her transformation cocoon: Raynor:Mother of god, Kerrigan what have they done to you??! ...Sarah, is that really you? Kerrigan:To an extent, and far more than i once was Jim! You shouldn't have come here! Raynor: But the dreams! i dreamed you were still alive, and that somehow you were calling to me! Kerrigan: I was,while i was in the chrysalids i istinctively reached out to you and arcturus telepathically... apparently Arcturus sent Duke here to reclaim me, but that was then Jim, i'm one of the zerg now, and i like what i am! you can't imagine how that feels! Raynor:So, now are you going to kill me darlin'? Kerrigan:That is certainly within my power, but you're not a threat to me Jim, be smart, leave here now and never seek to confront the zerg again! Raynor:Doesn't look like i have much choice.... Then again, she was mind-controlled by the overmind then, so it is possible she might be forced into being happy as a zerg, although this means that the mindcontrol is strong enough to affect her feelings about herself, but not strong enough to make her kill Jim Raynor, as the swarm has no reason to leave him alive or to have human mercy. By the way, these are the orders given by the Overmind at the start of the mission (Episode II, Agent of the Swarm) Zasz:The emanations of the Chrysalis have called even more of our enemies to Char! The Overmind:These too shall be eradicated by your hand, Cerebrate, for you grow more cunning with each passing battle. Indeed, you are a testament to my will and the fury of the Swarm.Yet first you must stay your wrath,and watch over the Chrysalis a little longer a while longer, for the very hour of the sleepers rebirth is at hand, and soon my greatest creation shall be loosed. And honestly,i'd see that as "guard the Chrysalis, eradicate the enemies", no room for "let the enemy run away even thought you could kill them", and yet the Queen of Blades lets Raynor leave. While talking of old love is somewhat far-fetched, that is clearly a very strong bond, i'd say... This has been brought up time and time again. It's not that the connection wasn't there. It's that Raynor's character in SC2 simply isn't consistent with BW. He vowed to kill her. Their relationship wasn't a full-on "I love you and I'll kiss you right before a fight" relationship. Part of the tragedy was that it was something that was budding but was stopped before it could be realized. besides, Raynor himself would love to have her back even after she's already a mass murderer I know what you mean, Fenix. I'd love to believe that she's on the level,but there's a part of me that just knows better Raynor would love to have her back to sanity/humanity, but he's no idiot and rightly fears that she might still be corrupted after the death of the Overmind, and even tho this is before the betrayal of Fenix, she already did terrible things, so he clearly doesn't place those murders on Sarah Kerrigan's shoulders, he places them on the monster she has become. Cherry-picking quotes. He's referring to the most basic ability to trust her word in a deal. You're taking the idea that he doesn't blame her for what she's done out of literally nowhere. Just because he wants to believe that she's trustworthy enough to have a civilized conversation and deal with her, doesn't mean he was even close to ready to even forgive her for her crimes, let alone do incredibly implausible and inconsistent things to have her turned back into a human. So, i guess you would've liked a Zerg campaign with no self-aware supporting Zerg characters, with just Kerrigan as a protagonist? I wouldn't. The problem is that the characters are poorly done. Stukov serves literally no real purpose. Dehaka is just annoying and serves no purpose as well (aside from the fact that the entire concept of the Primal Zerg is ridiculous and a complete retcon). Izsha (sp?) is bland, has a horrible script, has no personality, and sounds like an Adjutant. Zagara is mildly interesting, although it feels like we're being beat over the head with the same stick when every conversation with her culminates in the conflict between the Zerg's nature and Kerrigan's humanity. Abathur is by far the best character, and it's not like there was incredible depth to him either. He's just the guy who commands the other half of the fleet that nearly killed her before, is occupying Char, probably is still in possession of the Xel Naga WeaponofMassDestruction that wiped out 90% of her strongest brood and herself, and she also lost a ton of psionic power during her ritransformation (it's necessary to control the zerg, remember?), which is why a good 90% of her matriarchs are rogue and do not recognize her at the start of the campaign. Again, it's all a poorly contrived excuse to make up an incredibly bland and linear story. There are several parts in this thread that point out why Zerus is a complete fuck-up and a total retcon, why the Xel'Naga artifact is an absolutely horrific plot device, and every other possible reason for why the overall story (gain power, kill Mengsk) was bland, simple, and just terrible. That's very unfortunate, however it is also true in BroodWar, the bad guy rarely speaks any interesting lines while you're fighting against them*,however bw enjoys the fact that everyone you fight except the confederates (who come off as morons as a result) has been a previous protagonist of the story, and thus has been able to tell the story from his POV.... Sc2 suffers a lot from "low screen time", almost as much as a TV series adapted from a book does. You talk about it like, "Well, this is an inherent characteristic of BW vs. SC2, so it's not like it's Blizzard's fault for this", but it is. Blizzard could've presented the story in a significantly better way so that the antagonists aren't so one-dimensional, but they didn't. They chose to focus on this bullshit cowboy love story that was poorly written, incredibly inconsistent, completely departed from everything that Starcraft was, and leaves LotV to be totally disjointed and out-of-place, since Metzen had some stupid fetish with this Raynor-Kerrigan story for 47 fucking missions. | ||
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Thrillz
4313 Posts
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Jones313
Finland172 Posts
On March 15 2013 07:33 mordk wrote: I've always thought there's 2 main problems with the people complaining. First, people have COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC expectations of this game's story, of Diablo's storyline, and of any game's storyline really. If compared to more mature storytelling media, there's only a handful of good stories throughout the ENTIRETY of gaming's history. And that's fine, because it's evolving, it's a very young media. If you want deep storylines without the cheesiness, the plotholes, etc, either pick your games really carefully, or go back to books and movies. Second, people seem to have a nostalgia-filled vision of the original SC's storyline. While it wasn't nearly as cheesy as this one, the truth is SC's storyline was pretty basic, and just as bad as this one. Blizzard's writers weren't geniuses then, and they aren't now. That doesn't stop me from enjoying it though, you just need to look at it for what it is and get off that high flying cloud you people live in. Please remember most of us were KIDS when we played starcraft. OF COURSE IT WAS IMPRESSIVE. Read only a small part of this thread, but I'll have to echo this. A lot of people including me who were pre-teens in '98 only see the original SC story through their nostalgia glasses. I think the backstory in the SC manual and the way they set up the Starcraft universe is really cool, but the story itself certainly wasn't as amazing as people seem to remember, and the whole Hybrid/Amon thing was already set up in Brood War. Revisiting the story and playing through WoL and HotS kind of makes me feel dumb for caring about it so much. If you differentiate the overall story from the actual script, I feel the story in SC2 is basically more of the same. Sure it's mostly predictable and generic and everything but I'm okay with it most of the time. It's more the script and the atmosphere that I think is the difference in SC2. The main problems for me were: 1. The constant, embarrassing saturday morning cartoon-style trash talk of the Taldarim, Kerrigan, Warfield, Mengsk, Narud etc. and most of the Dominion infantry quotes ("What are these ugly critters?" "The Zerg are pulling back, it's a miracle!") that are completely unnecessary and basically kill the atmosphere for a large part of WoL and HotS. Cut at least half of these lines from the game and it instantly becomes a lot better. I don't think the writing is that bad most of the time, there just has to be those two or three cheesy lines of dialogue in every mission that ruin it. I guess I'll just have to mentally prepare myself for the likely scenario that Amon is going to be unbearably lame. Cannot escape the inevitable, now you will die, blah blah. A lot of "no, it cannot be" from both sides. 2. I guess this is more gameplay-related, but the game treating the player like an idiot annoyed me to no end. I get that there are people playing the game who are new to RTS, but most of the "advice" is just plain common sense. Such as Matt "Captain Obvious" Horner and his useless tactical input throughout WoL ("Just a reminder, sir, we need minerals to win this map, try to be economical!" or "Sir, we need to defend this area, build Bunkers!" during the last mission, for pete's sake) and Kerrigan screaming "STRIKE NOW" every five minutes throughout half of the HotS missions. Seriously shut the fuck up, I know what I'm doing. Just had to vent. For LotV, I don't really even care about the overall story at this point, I just want that original Starcraft feel to it, preferably with some semblance of believability and without an obnoxious amount of cheesiness. That's not too much to ask, right? People are complaining about vague storytelling and things not being explained properly, I actually kind of hope they keep it that way, if only because I fear what the explanations might be. At least now I can try to make my own interpretations of certain things. :p Maybe I'm dumb or in denial or whatever, but my childhood isn't completely ruined yet. On a positive note, I'm really glad Mengsk didn't turn out to be a servant of Amon or something, because that would've really sucked. I mean, he wasn't that, right..? On March 18 2013 06:10 Yonex204 wrote: For anyone that played Mass Effect, did anyone noticed how similar Abathur was to Mordin Solus? They have the same kind of speech pattern, and on top of that, they are both are geneticists. I couldn't help to think that Abathur is heavily inspired by Mordin. IMO Dehaka really annoying to me. Normally I enjoy listening to character dialogues, but everytime I speak to him its always something like "blablabla NEED ESSENCE". He never really would say anything interesting. I eventually just skipped his dialogue midway in if he mentions essence. I definitely got that ME vibe from Abathur, as well as Izsha (or whatever). Abathur was good, Dehaka was alright, Izsha was bad. | ||
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Coolness53
United States668 Posts
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On March 18 2013 14:16 Coolness53 wrote: I thought the story was ok. Gameplay was really fun for a RTS game. People complain about the story of Starcraft II but they go watch Walking Dead aka Walking Nowhere. Walking Dead is just as bad as Grey's Anatomy both soap operas. But popular thing to do is bash blizzard stories now. Starcraft is made for the multiplayer first please remember that. Replay Broodwar the story was meh. The thing is people EXPECT NOTHING from soap operas, but they EXPECT A GOOD STORY from Starcraft 2. You can do both ... All this "Amon = god" is going on my nerves ... isnt he simply one of the Xel'Naga (who might be super-powerful but that isnt the same as being a god)? | ||
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Gatesleeper
Canada300 Posts
On March 18 2013 12:58 Skirmjan wrote: It's not like Kerrigan's character was ever really clear, she's just sooo deeply conflicted on so many levels, for istance, she has this dialogue on char just after leaving her transformation cocoon: Raynor:Mother of god, Kerrigan what have they done to you??! ...Sarah, is that really you? Kerrigan:To an extent, and far more than i once was Jim! You shouldn't have come here! Raynor: But the dreams! i dreamed you were still alive, and that somehow you were calling to me! Kerrigan: I was,while i was in the chrysalids i istinctively reached out to you and arcturus telepathically... apparently Arcturus sent Duke here to reclaim me, but that was then Jim, i'm one of the zerg now, and i like what i am! you can't imagine how that feels! Raynor:So, now are you going to kill me darlin'? Kerrigan:That is certainly within my power, but you're not a threat to me Jim, be smart, leave here now and never seek to confront the zerg again! Raynor:Doesn't look like i have much choice.... Then again, she was mind-controlled by the overmind then, so it is possible she might be forced into being happy as a zerg, although this means that the mindcontrol is strong enough to affect her feelings about herself, but not strong enough to make her kill Jim Raynor, as the swarm has no reason to leave him alive or to have human mercy. By the way, these are the orders given by the Overmind at the start of the mission (Episode II, Agent of the Swarm) Zasz:The emanations of the Chrysalis have called even more of our enemies to Char! The Overmind:These too shall be eradicated by your hand, Cerebrate, for you grow more cunning with each passing battle. Indeed, you are a testament to my will and the fury of the Swarm.Yet first you must stay your wrath,and watch over the Chrysalis a little longer a while longer, for the very hour of the sleepers rebirth is at hand, and soon my greatest creation shall be loosed. And honestly,i'd see that as "guard the Chrysalis, eradicate the enemies", no room for "let the enemy run away even thought you could kill them", and yet the Queen of Blades lets Raynor leave. While talking of old love is somewhat far-fetched, that is clearly a very strong bond, i'd say... besides, Raynor himself would love to have her back even after she's already a mass murderer I know what you mean, Fenix. I'd love to believe that she's on the level,but there's a part of me that just knows better Raynor would love to have her back to sanity/humanity, but he's no idiot and rightly fears that she might still be corrupted after the death of the Overmind, and even tho this is before the betrayal of Fenix, she already did terrible things, so he clearly doesn't place those murders on Sarah Kerrigan's shoulders, he places them on the monster she has become. Well it's nice to see someone who liked the story give a detailed, evidence backed answer to their opinion. But I don't think anyone here ever questioned Kerrigan's feelings about Raynor. She's always been sympathetic towards Jim, even at her very worst (see her dialogue with him after she kills Fenix. "you don't know what you're talking about Jim", or "he died in combat, like all Protoss want", she's rationalizing, and is almost apologetic). What I, and a lot of have problems with, is Raynor's attitude towards Kerrigan. As we see in your quoted dialogue from BW, Raynor clearly wants to love Kerrigan, but is still on the fence, he's not sure whether she can really be trusted. When Kerrigan betrays their alliance and kills Fenix, that shattered his (and our) faith in Kerrigan being anything other than totally evil and untrustworthy. Then, 12 years later for us (4 years later for Jim), we find Raynor lovesick and conflicted, not the wrathful avenger he claimed he would be at the end of BW. This confused a lot of fans, and was a deal breaker for a lot of us. (I was on the fence, you won't find any posts from me questioning Raynor's feelings about Kerrigan in WoL). Kerrigan actually featured very little in the WoL dialogue and plot wise, so I withheld my judgement on whether Raynor acting the way he did was totally bogus or not. What is totally bogus though is how some people have defended this character development by saying "well haven't you ever changed your mind about anything? If anything, Raynor softening up is an example of character complexity and verisimilitude." wow. Uh, well my girlfriend never betrayed me, and killed my best friend and thousands of other people. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't forgive someone for that, but who knows right, haven't walked a mile in those shoes. But then HotS happened. Raynor went through "hell and back" to get Kerrigan back to (quasi) human form in WoL. After they get seperated in the beginning of the campaign, the next time he sees her, she's Zerg again, and it was her own choice this time. The only thing Zerg Kerrigan does, pre or post Amon's Taint™ is to kill humans and Protoss (and other Zerg, but who cares). People Kerrigan kills in HotS: Thousands of Terran Dominon on Char, Skygeirr, Korhal, and the several planets she orders her brood mothers to infest. But all those Terran are Dominion so they don't count, right? Every marine Kerrigan kills was a Mengsk worshipping card carrying SS member who probably ate babies for breakfast so fuck em' anyway, yeah okay. And of course, on all those planets, not a single civilian was killed, yup. The Protoss on Kaldir. People seem to forget this part of the game. Why did Kerrigan kill all these Protoss again? Because she needed to pick up a few roaches and hydras and didn't want those Protoss on Kaldir to call for reinforcements? Oh, okay, well she did that, she can just pick up and leave right? Like the Protoss lady says, she can easily leave before the Golden Armada arrives. Nope, she needs to wipe out the Protoss just for kicks. I'm curious to see how Artanis, Selendis and company feel about this "redeemed" Kerrigan in Legacy of the Void. So when Kerrigan rescues Jimmy from the prison ship, Kerrigan is understandably apologetic and even offers Raynor to kill her. If Jim unloaded that revolver into Kerrigan's forehead and killed her right there, I would actually prefer that to what happened instead. Instead Raynor leaves in a huff and goes off to sulk for a few missions. Until we come to the final mission when James Raynor comes to assist Kerrigan in killing Mengsk and his Dominion Forces. For me, that was the absolute last straw, and a slap in the face. I give absolutely 0 shits about what happens to Kerrigan and Raynor at this point, they can be killed off screen in the prologue of LotV for all I care, leaving us with Zeratul to save the universe from Space Satan on his own. I am so done with their brainless story. P.S. On March 18 2013 13:08 iamcaustic wrote: Oh my goodness, another person that actually paid attention and isn't just riding the foggy nostalgia train. Such a refreshing read, I have to say. lol, wow, this guy. | ||
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Skirmjan
Italy190 Posts
This has been brought up time and time again. It's not that the connection wasn't there. It's that Raynor's character in SC2 simply isn't consistent with BW. Cherry-picking quotes. He's referring to the most basic ability to trust her word in a deal. You're taking the idea that he doesn't blame her for what she's done out of literally nowhere. Just because he wants to believe that she's trustworthy enough to have a civilized conversation and deal with her, doesn't mean he was even close to ready to even forgive her for her crimes, let alone do incredibly implausible and inconsistent things to have her turned back into a human. Well, the number of quotes in the campaign is kinda limited, so to say that i'm cherry-picking is a little cheap, however, while there's little spoken proof, there's a massive difference that exists between the Raynor-InfestedKerrigan and the Raynor-Mengsk relationship; you never see Raynor attacking directly Kerrigan, the worst he has for her is heavy sarcasm to signal his distrust, and doubt for most of her ideas.... that is in stark contrast with what he does with Arcturus, whom he basically forbids to speak, and verbally attacks in pretty much every occasion. Up to this point, the "innocents headcount" is also favoring Kerrigan, who's still in a dangerous position while Mengsk appears to be neutralized, and Kerrigan has shown to be equally treacherous with the whole Raszagal affair. Raynor's character was always the "knight in shining armor" type, Kerrigan herself lampshades it during a mission, and him choosing rescue over revenge when given the possibility seems totally consistent to me. After all, he isn't actively trying to save Kerrigan until Valerian gives him a slight possibility of success... besides, even if he wanted to kill her he couldn't have without the fleet that Valerian gave him, and killing an unarmed Kerrigan at the end of WoL for pure vengeance would be so out of character for him. Another interesting thing to note is that the best occasion he would've had to kill the Queen of Blades would've been in Omega, last mission of Bw, yet he didn't join the fray either with his friends protoss and Artanis, or as a lone wolf to try and follow his vow... Stukov serves literally no real purpose. Dehaka is just annoying and serves no purpose as well (aside from the fact that the entire concept of the Primal Zerg is ridiculous and a complete retcon). Izsha (sp?) is bland, has a horrible script, has no personality, and sounds like an Adjutant. Stukov exists, and was anothing missing part of an older story that had to be at least somewhat considered: what has he become after N64 bw, what is he doing, etc etc. Izsha (no idea about the spelling,too) is basically the zerg adjutant, yes, in the end it's pretty useless, and Dehaka provides some sort of point of view of the primal zergs, althought be's a kinda dull character due to what he is. Abathur is clearly the best in the bunch, of course, although Stukov is intersting merely because he's Stukov, as i said. Zerus is a complete fuck-up and a total retcon First of all, the definition i use on what a retcon is:Retcon on TvTropes About Zerus, well no, that's totally not a retcon. You thought the Zergs originally came from Char, and were retconned to come from Zerus? It would actually have been the other way around if Zerus wasn't in the story, as Zerus is mentioned in the original StarCraft Manual, i quote: Traveling thousands of light years into theburning core of the galaxy, the Xel’Nagaeventually settled upon the volatile ash-worldof Zerus. The Xel’Naga planned to continuetheir Grand Experiment of evolution, only thistime they dismissed their tenets of physicalform and focused chiefly on the pursuit of adistinct purity of essence. Residing in their massive ships high above the fires of Zerus,the Xel’Naga began once again to challengethe wiles of fate. And this is basically the only description we get of it.There could've have been some feral zergs left on it, or the Overmind could've brought along all of them from the planet (although i'd say it's harder to bring all of them than to leave some of them) it turns out some have been left behind. I'm fine with this plot twist, what's the problem in it? What old canon does it contradict, therefore being a retcon? the overall story (gain power, kill Mengsk) was bland, simple, and just terrible. There has been a ton of "powering up" in all the campaigns of Sc, the Kel-Morian mission of gathering minerals in bw, hell, the whole Episode 2 can be synthetized in "power up Kerrigan, hunt dark templars, conquer Aiur", please keep explaining yourself without delivering these one-liners we both hate. and leaves LotV to be totally disjointed and out-of-place, since Metzen had some stupid fetish with this Raynor-Kerrigan story for 47 fucking missions. Well, no, the whole storyline of Amon and how he was supposedly dead and has been resurrected with the energy stolen by the same xel naga artifact that was supposed to be a weapon of the other side of the conflict and how that plays with the whole Zeratul's prophecy part seems to hint at a much deeper storyline... hopefully that plot hook wont go to waste. About Amon being a god, no, but he's basically the grandfather of all the hybrids (of which there are probably still tons around) and a being much, much more ancient than the oldest protoss, probably in possession of the most arcane knowledges and sciences. His age and servants alone make him a very credible threat. | ||
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Ghostcom
Denmark4782 Posts
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
Well, the number of quotes in the campaign is kinda limited, so to say that i'm cherry-picking is a little cheap, however, while there's little spoken proof, there's a massive difference that exists between the Raynor-InfestedKerrigan and the Raynor-Mengsk relationship; you never see Raynor attacking directly Kerrigan, the worst he has for her is heavy sarcasm to signal his distrust, and doubt for most of her ideas.... that is in stark contrast with what he does with Arcturus, whom he basically forbids to speak, and verbally attacks in pretty much every occasion. Up to this point, the "innocents headcount" is also favoring Kerrigan, who's still in a dangerous position while Mengsk appears to be neutralized, and Kerrigan has shown to be equally treacherous with the whole Raszagal affair. Raynor's character was always the "knight in shining armor" type, Kerrigan herself lampshades it during a mission, and him choosing rescue over revenge when given the possibility seems totally consistent to me. After all, he isn't actively trying to save Kerrigan until Valerian gives him a slight possibility of success... besides, even if he wanted to kill her he couldn't have without the fleet that Valerian gave him, and killing an unarmed Kerrigan at the end of WoL for pure vengeance would be so out of character for him. Another interesting thing to note is that the best occasion he would've had to kill the Queen of Blades would've been in Omega, last mission of Bw, yet he didn't join the fray either with his friends protoss and Artanis, or as a lone wolf to try and follow his vow... Again, it's just not consistent. The entire climax of the character development in BW was Raynor's vow to kill Kerrigan. Then he goes all soap-opera on us the moment the curtains goes up for WoL. There's no actual struggle seen in Raynor in WoL. Not even a mention of Fenix. As soon as there's a chance to rescue her, he slaughters a bunch of Protoss to take their holy relics and endangers thousands of his men to use some ridiculous deus ex machina device to save her. Stukov exists, and was anothing missing part of an older story that had to be at least somewhat considered: what has he become after N64 bw, what is he doing, etc etc. Izsha (no idea about the spelling,too) is basically the zerg adjutant, yes, in the end it's pretty useless, and Dehaka provides some sort of point of view of the primal zergs, althought be's a kinda dull character due to what he is. Abathur is clearly the best in the bunch, of course, although Stukov is intersting merely because he's Stukov, as i said. Stukov is just completely out of place. He was killed, then infested, then de-infested, then infested again. An incredibly convoluted way to throw him in the campaign for no reason. He simply didn't serve a purpose in the HotS campaign. There was no need for him to be there, story-wise. First of all, the definition i use on what a retcon is:Retcon on TvTropes About Zerus, well no, that's totally not a retcon. You thought the Zergs originally came from Char, and were retconned to come from Zerus? It would actually have been the other way around if Zerus wasn't in the story, as Zerus is mentioned in the original StarCraft Manual, i quote: Traveling thousands of light years into theburning core of the galaxy, the Xel’Nagaeventually settled upon the volatile ash-worldof Zerus. The Xel’Naga planned to continuetheir Grand Experiment of evolution, only thistime they dismissed their tenets of physicalform and focused chiefly on the pursuit of adistinct purity of essence. Residing in their massive ships high above the fires of Zerus,the Xel’Naga began once again to challengethe wiles of fate. And this is basically the only description we get of it.There could've have been some feral zergs left on it, or the Overmind could've brought along all of them from the planet (although i'd say it's harder to bring all of them than to leave some of them) it turns out some have been left behind. I'm fine with this plot twist, what's the problem in it? What old canon does it contradict, therefore being a retcon? It is a retcon and I thoroughly explained this several pages ago. Zerus was a "volcanic, lifeless planet", and the Zerg were a "unified race", not factional, ego-driven beasts without psionic capabilities. Furthermore, the original Zerg were parasites. Finally, from everything we can read from the original manual (the planet being lifeless, the Zerg being a unified race), there should be no Zerg left on Zerus. Oh, and it's absolutely implausible for it to be a jungle world. It was left a volcanic, lifeless planet, and the trip took the Overmind 60 years. Even if you give him some years to collect "countless species" and assimilate them before he starts making the 60 year journey to the Korprulu Sector, there's no one in hell it changed that fast. The Earth took billions of years to changed its climate that dramatically, and the Overmind had maybe a hundred or two. There has been a ton of "powering up" in all the campaigns of Sc, the Kel-Morian mission of gathering minerals in bw, hell, the whole Episode 2 can be synthetized in "power up Kerrigan, hunt dark templars, conquer Aiur", please keep explaining yourself without delivering these one-liners we both hate. Episode 2 was a development of Kerrigan as a Zerg character instead of a Terran one, and the explanation of the Zerg's mission and drive to fight the Protoss. Aside from Zerus (which was a complete shitstorm, as I've already said), the entire HotS campaign was one big "power up" mission. Well, no, the whole storyline of Amon and how he was supposedly dead and has been resurrected with the energy stolen by the same xel naga artifact that was supposed to be a weapon of the other side of the conflict and how that plays with the whole Zeratul's prophecy part seems to hint at a much deeper storyline... hopefully that plot hook wont go to waste. About Amon being a god, no, but he's basically the grandfather of all the hybrids (of which there are probably still tons around) and a being much, much more ancient than the oldest protoss, probably in possession of the most arcane knowledges and sciences. His age and servants alone make him a very credible threat. Aside from making some incredibly cheesy and stupid appearances with this dumbass prophecy story arc, Zeratul has been completely absent. He isn't even a personality, as far as SC2 goes. If you played only SC2, you literally could not tell us a single thing about who Zeratul is or why he matters. Beyond that, no other Protoss character has been shown at all. The Tal'Darim are generic bad-guy Protoss thrown in there so you can at least see the Protoss in the campaigns once or twice. There is no connection between the Protoss story arc and the rest because Blizzard has been so obnoxiously fixated on this Raynor-Kerrigan bullshit that wasn't even what made the original SC/BW good. | ||
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Gatesleeper
Canada300 Posts
On March 18 2013 14:47 Skirmjan wrote: About Zerus, well no, that's totally not a retcon. You thought the Zergs originally came from Char, and were retconned to come from Zerus? It would actually have been the other way around if Zerus wasn't in the story, as Zerus is mentioned in the original StarCraft Manual, i quote: Traveling thousands of light years into theburning core of the galaxy, the Xel’Nagaeventually settled upon the volatile ash-worldof Zerus. The Xel’Naga planned to continuetheir Grand Experiment of evolution, only thistime they dismissed their tenets of physicalform and focused chiefly on the pursuit of adistinct purity of essence. Residing in their massive ships high above the fires of Zerus,the Xel’Naga began once again to challengethe wiles of fate. And this is basically the only description we get of it.There could've have been some feral zergs left on it, or the Overmind could've brought along all of them from the planet (although i'd say it's harder to bring all of them than to leave some of them) it turns out some have been left behind. I'm fine with this plot twist, what's the problem in it? What old canon does it contradict, therefore being a retcon? Please, I was looking forward to someone from the pro-story camp being a rational human being, please don't throw that away by writing complete garbage like this. See: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402932¤tpage=27#526 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402932¤tpage=27#534 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402932¤tpage=28#546 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402932¤tpage=23#456 P.S. Can someone sort this one out for me? Zoomacroom wrote: How freaking cowardly is it to retcon the Tal'Darim to be servants of the Dark Voice once everyone points out that Jim Raynor was basically an imperialist supervillain in WoL? Like, "Oh by the way, you shouldn't feel bad about invading their world and violently robbing them of the objects of their faith because surprise, they were possessed by Satan! the whole time!" And for that matter, how does it make any sense at all that the Tal'Darim were working for Narud if Narud repeatedly commissioned Raynor to steal Xel'Naga artifacts *from* the Tal'Darim in WoL? This is way back from Zoomacroom's post in the last thread, but while we're on the topic of retcons I wanted to clear this one up. Someone replied to this saying that this is not a retcon because the Tal'Darim were always portrayed as servants of the Xel'Naga. But it was established in HotS that they are now servants of Amon, and apparently we all know now that Amon =/= Xel'Naga, and is in fact on the opposite "side" of the rest of the Xel'Naga. If they were true worshippers of the Xel'Naga, wouldn't they be fighting AGAINST Amon? Cue flimsy rationalization: "Narud probably tricked the Tal'Darim into following him by saying he was a servant of the Xel'Naga." Plus, even if they are and always were servants of Amon and not merely worshippers of the Xel'Naga, that doesn't explain why "Narud repeatedly commissioned Raynor to steal Xel'Naga artifacts *from* the Tal'Darim in WoL". | ||
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